New Page for Review - Tuluki Societal Castes

[Marauder Moe]

I suggest "Lightless", as an easy slip of the tongue/typing-fingers could make "Faithful" come out as "Faithless", or vice versa..

I also really like the idea of burning off the caste/birth tattoos.  It would make the proccess both inherently painful and even more shameful.  This would be a wonderful alternative (when appropriate) to the dreaded "disappearings" that players complain about a lot.

[LauraMars]

I don't like outcaste. It screams PUN, and is painful to look upon.

Lightless is good.

And so is this chart.

[Intrepid]

This may completely irrelevant, but the blood nobles of Tuluk were known back in the day as the Surif.

[Yang]

Untouchable is too gangster. I suggest something in tow with everyday conversations: Walk in His Light.



The shamed should be called:

The Darkened

[marko]

Personally, I'd prefer to stay away from references to "His Light" when dealing with the ostracized caste.  

As per hlum nobility - there is no current hlum noble.  

This title is bestroyed upon an individual for the remainder of their life and elevates them to the noble caste.  Upon the death of that individual the noble title is lost and the descendents go back to being common.

All current Noble Houses are fully Noble Houses have been Chosen after the Reclaiming of the North.

The point about hlum being equal or even better than a baby noble is a very good one and makes a lot of sense.  A hlum who gains the title has accomplished something great (very very very great) and is thus proclaimed, for lack of a better term for it, a hero of Tuluk.  As such they are bestowed with a vast amount of influence from that title alone.

I can see hlum nobles being higher than a baby noble.

What is more difficult are the hlum noble employees and family.  I would consider them equal to noble house servants and employees for the duration of the title.  Upon dead of the hlum noble those positions would be lost and the employees and family would need to find a new place in society.  Since a lot of Tuluki society consists of patronage I really don't see a hlum noble hiring a lot of people.  Maybe getting a couple guards for their family but the rest I can see as being partisans.

Finally, a note about patronage (I will write more about this) is that the rank of the patron greatly effects how much social boost the partisan will get.  A person can greatly increase their social standing if they gain a hugely powerful patron or it can be the smallest of blips if their patron is just a bit higher than themselves.  

As such, I'd rather keep patronage off the chart and leave it as a detailed explaination as to how patronage works, provide a few common examples, and let it be.  Typically, partisans will only gain a modest status boost because, typically, their patrons aren't hugely powerful.  But, it might happen.

[Tlaloc]

They're still known by that, now.

There's a few changes to this document which will likely go through, as we discuss things, and hammer out the final details. I noticed a couple of changes right off the bat, which slipped through the cracks, and will be updated shortly. As for this making Tuluk 'too rigid', I actually think what this document does is help define Tuluki social status/classes in the players minds far more than was actually being played.

In other words: to me, this doesn't seem like a change because it's more or less how the staff have been playing Tuluk all along (with a few changes). On the other hand, players tend to see things on a smaller scale than what actually happens in-game, virtually. I don't think this really "changes" anything at all, but merely helps clarify where things and people should be, and should have always been in the Tuluki society.

To help answer some questions:

1) The sub-divisions within the castes (merchant, artisan, etc.) aren't 100% rigid (ie: you don't have to stay within your own 'caste' in terms of finding a mate, or working outside of it). All commoners are from the 'commoner' caste. However, the individual splits of castes still exist, and for the most part, people naturally stay within those castes: if you're a Bard, chances are your mother and father were Bards, too. If you're a merchant/crafter, chances are your parents were, as well.

It's not a 100% certainty, but you are socially predisposed to probably turning out to be a crafter, bard, or whatever if your parents were as well.

Edited to add: While mating inside your 'main' caste is fine (ie: Commoner/Commoner, noble/noble, etc.), finding a mate outside it is usually very, very looked down upon (ie: noble/commoner, commoner/slave, etc.). So...there is the distinction.

2) Sex is never an issue within the castes in this system. While the Lirathan and Jihaen orders are segregated between sexes, this is an order-specific choice, rather than a 'caste' thing. If you're curious about more details regarding this, I recommend doing some research on Old Tuluki history, and learning about the evoution of the Orders of the Templarate. And try not to be dissapeared in the process.

I think a very appropriately subtle clue of Tuluki politics (and how fluid things actually can be in the city) is stated in the document, under the Templarate section:

Social Castes of Tuluk[/url]"]Templar - The templar caste consists of two distinct sects - the female Lirathans and the male Jihaens. The sect with more power is the sect that holds the position of High Precentor within the city. At this time the High Precentor is a Lirathan. Templars are chosen mainly from the noble caste, but may also come from other castes in exceptional cases.

3) All of the current Tuluki nobility are Surif noble houses. What the origins of those Houses were, originally, I'll leave to you folks to find out, IC.

Anyway - those are just some things to mull over, while you're thinking about this document. Great feedback so far, folks!

[Gimfalisette]

1) The sub-divisions within the castes (merchant, artisan, etc.) aren't 100% rigid (ie: you don't have to stay within your own 'caste' in terms of finding a mate, or working outside of it). All commoners are from the 'commoner' caste. However, the individual splits of castes still exist, and for the most part, people naturally stay within those castes: if you're a Bard, chances are your mother and father were Bards, too. If you're a merchant/crafter, chances are your parents were, as well.

It's not a 100% certainty, but you are socially predisposed to probably turning out to be a crafter, bard, or whatever if your parents were as well.

Edited to add: While mating inside your 'main' caste is fine (ie: Commoner/Commoner, noble/noble, etc.), finding a mate outside it is usually very, very looked down upon (ie: noble/commoner, commoner/slave, etc.). So...there is the distinction.

While I can definitely see the logic used to apply the term "caste" to sub-groups within the main caste of commoners (that being the desire to indicate that those types of commoners tend to breed within their group and tend to take up the traditional occupations of that group), from the perspective of anthropological study this is a mis-use and a weakening of the term.

Technically, "caste" indicates an extremely rigid social structure where there is no movement between the social groups, where marriage/breeding happens only within the social group, where the caste is hereditary, and where there is usually a traditional occupation.

I am worried that calling artisans and merchants "castes" is softening the meaning of the term so that it's harder for newbs to Tuluk to understand and play around, not easier.

I would really, really prefer to see a different term use for these sub-castes...even if it's just "sub-castes." I'd rather have a term that made IC sense, like "class" to indicate these differences. "Class" implies significant difference, but not rigidity or social taboo. Like in American society, people tend to marry and socialize within their "class" (middle class, upper class), but they're not going to get killed/shunned for breeding outside.

Then we would have four castes, a number of classes within the commoner caste, and ranks within the castes and classes.

[Naiona]

Class is not a signifigant enough term to emphasize the differences in Tuluki society.  It might be noted that even in the dictionary caste is not always defined as strictly heriditary.

I am making it more clear on the document that while rare, it is possible to change sub castes within the larger caste system.  I am also taking several suggestions offered here so far as well as making some changes based on staff suggestions or corrections.

[Seeker]

"Sub-caste" is kinda of a new concept for me.  I must have missed that one.

I thought the emphasis had always been that a Commoner was a Commoner was a Commoner.  Sure, some might eventually have more prestige among their own, but they were all pretty much the same, otherwise.

Not an Artisan Sub-caste Commoner, or a Merchant Sub-caste Commoner.  This will take some more changing in the old thought-process, then.


Seeker

[jstorrie]

While I am all right with most of the table, I find the artisan/commoner distinction a bit troubling. I would like to see the artisan column collapsed into the commoner one, as a commoner is a commoner is a commoner.

[Jherlen]

More thoughts re: the "sub-castes"...

It seems to me like this might really divive Tuluk along occupational lines if changing one's "sub-caste" is supposedly rare. Would there be social ramifications if a "common" commoner/hunter and an artisan jewelrycrafter were to have kids? What would they be? What caste would the children be? Suppose an artisan wanted to give up their craft and go work as a merchant instead. Would the other merchants of the merchant caste accept them? Would their artisan friends shun them?

I'm just afraid the "castes within castes" approach here might be defining things too strictly for people to easily understand.

On another note, to me it seems like there's a disparity between merchants and bards in the table. Merchants will have lots of money, but the circle leader bards will probably be very public figures and have lots of social clout -- I would shift both these ranks towards each other and have them on the same level as your average Chosen Family Member. Obviously there will be fluidity in the table etc etc, but to me that makes more sense than having the house heads of merchant houses ranking above the majority of nobles, while the circle heads of bard circles rank below almost all of them.

Along that same line, I would move the Senior Merchant rank up to be on the level of Master Bards. Senior Agents/Merchants of the Great Houses are still very powerful figures and probably frequently deal with six-figure deals and contracts; their rank in the table seems awfully low to me.

[flurry]

It looks like a really helpful doc.

One thing that confused me a little:

Artisan - The artisan caste consists of the elite of the other two common castes. Included in the artisan caste are master crafters, ranked Circle bards of Bard rank or above with noble or templar partisanship, extremely accomplished assassins and thieves with noble or templar partisanship and accomplished artisans of other disciplines that can show sufficient support.

Here it suggests the only BotC in this subcaste are those of rank Bard and up, but under the Artisan column on the table there is Seeker and Apprentice.

Love the idea of the untouchables.  I don't have a big problem with the name, although it might cause some confusion with the untouchable caste in Indian culture.

Some possible other names for that caste, off the top of my head: the Scorned? the Shunned?   I kind of like the suggestions related to light others have given.

[Larrath]

On another note, to me it seems like there's a disparity between merchants and bards in the table. Merchants will have lots of money, but the circle leader bards will probably be very public figures and have lots of social clout -- I would shift both these ranks towards each other and have them on the same level as your average Chosen Family Member.

This table is, as far as I see it, a representation of the 'legal' status of a citizen.  A Master Assassin, for example, might end up so important to Tuluk that they would effectively be worth more than the current Head of Chosen House Negean.  The table is a representation of more average cases.
In public, the Chosen are inherently more important than both the normal citizens (since they're noble) and the Merchant Family members (because they already wield a ton of power, and there could be political trouble if they were seen as nobles).
Think about it like this - the table decides who can openly and rudely summon someone else.

Obviously there will be fluidity in the table etc etc, but to me that makes more sense than having the house heads of merchant houses ranking above the majority of nobles, while the circle heads of bard circles rank below almost all of them.

The head of a merchant house is an insanely powerful figure.  You're talking about a person that, more or less single-handedly controls an eighth of the entire world's population, a well-trained medium-sized army, and has extremely strong ties everywhere.  The prospect of badly crossing a Merchant House Head is enough to give pause even to an Allanaki Red Robe (unless he has Templarate backing, at least).

Along that same line, I would move the Senior Merchant rank up to be on the level of Master Bards. Senior Agents/Merchants of the Great Houses are still very powerful figures and probably frequently deal with six-figure deals and contracts; their rank in the table seems awfully low to me.

I think it's fine the way it is.  Each Merchant House has around twenty Senior-Seniors per House Location, I estimate - definitely no less than ten.  That makes at least forty such merchants in Tuluk.  I was under the impression that Master Bards were much rarer.  If they're not, though, then perhaps they should be matched after all.

[rishenko]

Three things:

:arrow:  Yay for charts!

:arrow:  Social standing modifiers.  For instance, how does partisanship affect the balance between a senior merchant and a lower noble if the senior merchant has a well-renowned Circle Bard under her hand?  Of course the noble could order the merchant around being of at a technically higher level, but the Bard pushes the merchant's level of influence and overall powerbase further than that of the newly released noble.

Another example.  How does a master assassin who has been regularly used to remove several high standing members of the public with exquisite finesse stack against a Master Bard who holds significant social clout?

How does poor public performance and etiquette lower a person's standing?  Does it?

:arrow:  The contrast of social standing establishing rituals and city wide camaraderie.  I see Tuluk, after the war and in its present state as more of a very large tribe than a melting pot city.  The tribe, on the average, has everybody talking to one another on a common level, though it is obvious who is higher in the pecking order.  However, and I believe that this is partially due to the desire to keep or find an identity and remember times past, there are rituals that are kept near and dear to the Tuluki social code.  

For instance, introductions.  When a group of people come together to introduce a new individual to the fold (say a Chosen or Faithful), the person with the most social prestige performs the introductions.  They start at the top of the social ladder in the group and work their way down.  Once the formal introductions have been made, the ritual ends and instant conversation and fun takes place.

Another would include the starting of parties.  A ritual would see the host/hostess introducing the party's purpose, the main people who are holding it and giving some praise to His Light.  Once completed, the party flows into a gathering of friends/enemies/acquaintances.

So, like a tribe, the Tulukis rely and work together to better the city and themselves.  However, there are definite strata within the tribe, and while people vie the placement and standing, each knows their place, or they disappear.

[Jherlen]

The head of a merchant house is an insanely powerful figure.  You're talking about a person that, more or less single-handedly controls an eighth of the entire world's population,

So a full half of the entire world's population is working for Salarr, Kadius, Kurac, or Nenyuk? Not a chance.

a well-trained medium-sized army,

While Salarr and Kadius probably have larger guard/hunter forces than your average noble house of either city, only Kurac probably has an established martial force large enough to be called an "army" -- and even that force would be nothing compared to the might of the AoD or the Sun Legions.

and has extremely strong ties everywhere.  The prospect of badly crossing a Merchant House Head is enough to give pause even to an Allanaki Red Robe (unless he has Templarate backing, at least).

I do agree with this, and on further thought I would probably say that House Heads of the merchant houses would be okay where they are - above your everyday Chosen Winrothol or Lyskae. This conflicts with the Allanaki chart, though, which places merchant house heads below even baby nobles of House Sath... but that is probably fine, since Allanaki and Tuluki societies are different. What this would be saying would be that the Merchant Houses are being given more open acknowledgement of power in Tuluk, whereas in Allanak they aren't given as much (public) recognitition.

Along that same line, I would move the Senior Merchant rank up to be on the level of Master Bards. Senior Agents/Merchants of the Great Houses are still very powerful figures and probably frequently deal with six-figure deals and contracts; their rank in the table seems awfully low to me.

I think it's fine the way it is.  Each Merchant House has around twenty Senior-Seniors per House Location, I estimate - definitely no less than ten.  That makes at least forty such merchants in Tuluk.  I was under the impression that Master Bards were much rarer.  If they're not, though, then perhaps they should be matched after all.

The chart makes a distinction between Circle Heads and Master Bards, making me think that Master Bards are more common. If every circle had even five Master Bards, they're about as common as Senior Merchants, and I don't think five per circle is an unreasonable number. Also, when I think of a Senior Merchant, I'm thinking of someone akin to a Salarri Emissary, or a Kuraci on the Kurac Council, or a Kadian who is whatever is just below the Kadian Magnate. I think there are probably less than ten of those people per House. I wouldn't necessarily say that the direct superior of your average PC family member Agent/Merchant is a "Senior Merchant" on the same social level as a Master Bard, but THEIR superior definitely should be. The head of each house should be one step above that still.

[marko]

Determining Ranking

To determine the true station of someone it is a complex and difficult task. One needs to take into account such clearly defined points such as job and House with such vague and interpretive aspects like influence and power. There are a lot of factors that make up one's social standing especially amongst a peer group or within their own caste.

For example, two merchants of two different Houses. Who is higher in standing than the other? How is that decided? Well, one would need to look at the personal influence of each merchant, their web of allies, the number of employees, and the standing of the Merchant House itself to begin to get an idea.

Patronage is one of the most important factors when determining the social standing of artisans and bards. Patronage can bump an individual up by full standings or even lower them.   Usually though, patronage bumps are minor increments within a social ranking.  Basically, every social ranking is further split up into infinite values where people within it fit relative to one another.

The higher the patron's social standing the more of a possible effect it has on the partisan's social standing.  The reason this is only a possibility and not a hard fact is because the nature of the relationship makes a difference. A brand new partisan cannot lay claim to the full bump in social standing or there may be a situation where the patron ignores (doesn't care) for their partisan. There must be an obvious relationship in full force to gain the full bonus of prestige.

There is a base calculation I'm using but since I think there will be changes to the charts I haven't really included it.  The calculation is to take the difference in social rank and divide it by two and then round down to determine the greatest possible social rank bump.  Basically this means that patronage between commoners and nobility (or templars) offer the greatest social status boost.  The higher the patron the higher the partisan rises.  

rishenko made a good comment about the social increase that a patron may experience from a partisan.  That's something I'll think of since the relationship is symbiotic but usually partisans are so much below a patron that there isn't anything really going on for the patron.  But, if the partisan does become a master I think there would be a social prestige bonus granted to the patron.

Patronage Examples

Patronage Example 1:

A seeker bard who's patron is a baby noble. Since the baby noble is significantly higher in rank than a seeker in social standing this increases the seeker's position by a full standing. Therefore, the seeker would have a more accurate rank of a being higher than normal seeker's but not necessarily equal to a bard (but a close second) further modified by the seeker's personal influence, friends, clout, performance ability, etc.. which could bring the seeker equal (or even higher) with a patronless bard.

Patronage Example 2:

A journeyman artisan who caught the eye of a Jihaen High Templar . The journeyman rises through the social rankings because of the patron. There a huge difference in social standing between the two. Therefore the journeyman could try and claim a higher social rank - slightly above that of accomplished. But, because this is a brand new relationship, the journeyman is only bumped up to above its current rank (but below accomplished). Over the course of time this will continue to rise as it becomes clear to everyone that the Jihaen patron actually favors his partisan (to be equivilant to accomplished) or, if the patron ignores the journeyman, the adjusted rank will linger just above journeyman.

Patronage Example 3:

The case of two artisans. One accomplished artisan is a House Artisan and the other has as a patron a senior noble. The House Artisan maintains the station of an artisan since being an employee offers no benefit to social standing while the partisan gains multiple ranks of prestige from their patron (who is a very powerful person being a senior noble). At a social gathering the partisan is served first between the two, is offered greater respect, and holds more clout with their views.

When there is an apparent tie in social standing it is broken by the individual of the higher caste or of the more prestigious house / group. As an example, while it appears that Heads of Houses, Circle Leaders, or even others with extremely powerful patrons can become "equal" to baby nobles that is not really the case at all. They may inhabit the same level of standing because of the accomplishments, people network, and wealth they have spent their life building up.  With this comes a reputation and fame which a fresh faced baby noble new to the social environment does not have yet. The noble is still from a higher caste whereas a bard has the resources and reputation. In other words, while the bard defers to the master, the noble would be wise to still treat the master with respect and consideration.

Determining the true standing of any individual is a difficult task and subject to the whims of life. One day someone may be held in high esteem only to lose it the next. Keeping track of these shifts in standing can be intimidating since the social climate is in a constant state of flux. By using the table as a base guide to where someone is one can stay afloat in the turbulent game of social intrigue without offending too many people.

[FantasyWriter]

Bumping because its an awesome chart.

[palomar]

It is an awesome chart indeed, and for those of you who don't want to go back to the first page and the first post, it is found here: http://www.armageddon.org/rp/tuluk_castes.html

[Cutthroat]

It's a good guideline, to be sure, but ranking will still differ from person to person. A particularly exceptional Private in the Legions might be more favored by a Jihaen than the bumbling Corporal, for example.

I would also assume that in general, you would read the chart up and to the left as you go up with the ranks, so while General of the Legions and Jihaen Templar are on the same level on the chart, they are not realistically on the same level (one is still a commoner and the other is still a templar, after all).

[SMuz]

So, a starting house employee, is slightly higher than a Private? Heh, that makes sense in Tuluk, I guess. Interesting.. wouldn't have expected master bards to be higher than master assassin.

[Reiloth]

It's a good guideline, to be sure, but ranking will still differ from person to person. A particularly exceptional Private in the Legions might be more favored by a Jihaen than the bumbling Corporal, for example.

I would also assume that in general, you would read the chart up and to the left as you go up with the ranks, so while General of the Legions and Jihaen Templar are on the same level on the chart, they are not realistically on the same level (one is still a commoner and the other is still a templar, after all).

I agree in general with your first sentiment -- I've seen such things happen IG.

[Eloran]

That doesn't mean they're right.

[Reiloth]

That doesn't mean they're right.

I think this chart is a general assessment.

A Master Bard will always assert more influence than an Apprentice, a Seeker, or a Bard even. However -- A popular Seeker may outshine a full-fledged Bard of yester-years, if, say, their patron is a Jihaen Templar, they are a veteran of a war, and they've been in two plays recently. The Bard may still be able to 'call out' the Seeker in public, say if the Seeker was gloating a bit. There may be some subtle, bullshit subtlety that the Seeker throws the Bard's way, but everyone knows the Seeker is the shit, and the Bard is just a washed up nobody that used to be cool and great and all that, but is now just a 'title' rather than an awesome dude/dude-ess.

Especially in a place like Tuluk, the world is not black and white as far as social standing goes.

[palomar]

Interesting.. wouldn't have expected master bards to be higher than master assassin.

Master Bards of the Poet's Circle receive much of their status from being at the pinnacle of the artistic and cultural sphere of Tuluk society. It is an acknowledged title requiring years and years of social manipulation, actual training in the Arts, and various other feats. From my understanding of the documentation, it's even very rare that a Master Bard has a patron (at least long-term) because usually they're focused on Circle business.

A Master Assassin is not as clearly defined. There are many ways in which someone becomes a Master Assassin in Tuluk. Such a person's status would in part be a reflection on how reliable, talented and efficient they are at their trade, but also be a reflection of the status of their employer or the organization they work for.

[jcljules]

I've always been confused about how a master assassin or master thief would stack up socially. Would everyone know that he/she was a master thief or assassin? Would only the important people know? Would everyone know who they had killed/how? Would they try to keep it a secret, admit to it in public, or neither?