Desert Elves

[Volke]

I looked through the help files, and it seems city elves and desert elves are in the same file. Does that mean that if I choose elf I can be a desert elf?
If so, how do I go about finding a tribe, because I'd much prefer a desert elf over a city elf.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

There are certain coded features that separate desert elves from city elves. Desert elves require 1 karma to play. You cannot make a city elf and pretend to be a desert elf.

[Jherlen]

City elves and desert elves are in the same helpfile, but the "elf" (karma 0) race is different than the "desert elf" (karma 1) race, so no, you can't app as an "elf" and then be a desert elf.

You could, I guess, be a tribeless city elf and maybe try to join a desert elf tribe... but uh, I imagine it would be tough.

Besides, you don't want to be an elf. Elves are twinks.

[Paris]

City elves and desert elves are in the same helpfile, but the "elf" (karma 0) race is different than the "desert elf" (karma 1) race, so no, you can't app as an "elf" and then be a desert elf.

You could, I guess, be a tribeless city elf and maybe try to join a desert elf tribe... but uh, I imagine it would be tough.

Besides, you don't want to be an elf. Elves are twinks.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! That is just words of wisdom,


That said desert elves aren't really different in the sense my Chamorro friend from Guam is a little different from my Samoan friend from S.C. Same species but generations of living in a different place has made them umm... different. D elves are accustomed to the heat and struggle to spend every day running through the wastes. City elves have adapted to the shadier side of life. Thus... Well they have definite coded benefits over d elves trust me.

[Hymwen]

Remember that even if you don't have the karma, you can send a special application if you believe you have a good concept for a type of character such as a desert elf. But I believe you're fairly new here, so I would strongly recommend first getting a good grasp of the world before attempting to play karma-restricted characters.

[moab]

You cannot make a city elf and pretend to be a desert elf.

Actually, you could, but it would involve you constructing your background and personality so that the "city" elf in a way that was both compliant to the documentation and gave the elf motivation for living / trying to live the life of a desert elf.

Of course, this would be a lot like creating a dwarf of human who wanted to live the life of a desert elf.

Good luck with that!

[spawnloser]

Hey, when still a wee noob, I played a city elf that wanted to go back to the desert lifestyle.  I lasted just past the 2-hour auto-rezz period.  It was quite a disappointment.

However, I played another city elf a while later that was able to pull it off, but there were extenuating circumstances for that one...something that gave him an edge.

(shrug)

It's fun.  I'd do it again.  I'd maybe do it the same way that I did it the second time...but I kinda already did that one.  I might try a similar concept and just see if it leads to that.  Meh.  I won't say it's an easy thing to do...in fact very difficult to pull off, but fun as hell when you can.

[moab]

I think the psychological role-play would be great in a character like that.

For me, a large part of the game is in thinking and in the biography and how those things come out to other people after the character has chewed them up in their mind.

[Djarjak]

Okay, clarification is clearly warranted here.

While desert elves and city elves may all be descended from desert tribes, this does not mean they are both the same.

You may not create a city elf and then say that you came from the desert, or that you are one of the desert tribes. There are city-based tribes that you can use for a city elf.

Now, here's my treatise on elves - this part may or may not reflect the overall staff opinion, so unless my peers and superiors want to back me up, you may all feel free to take this with a grain of salt:

1) Desert elves differ from city elves because of many many years of separation in living conditions. Desert elves run many miles daily and survive having the crap beaten out of them daily by wildlife, humans, and other elves. They are as different from city elves as your average zulu hunter differs from a pants-sagging high schooler in downtown LA-- and for the same reasons.

2) The culture of city elves and desert elves is also significantly divergent, the differences making it extraordinarily unlikely that groups would happily mingle. However, certain elements are shared. If someone is not part of your "tribe", he is not to be trusted, nor should he trust you. The definition of tribe varies from tribe to tribe, but it is very rare for a desert elf to extend that definition beyond the borders of race. Desert elves and city elves should both consider riding an animal to be dishonorable. But these shared elements are hardly enough for a desert clan to welcome a strange city elf into the fold with open arms.

The fundamental difference between desert elves and city elves is that desert elves have lived their entire lives in the wilderness, in some way or another. Some may attend the citystates or other outposts occasionally for trade or mischief, but they do not consider it (nor would they want to) a way of life. City elves, on the other hand, were born in, raised in, and have lived in a city all their lives. The stink of the bazaar, the mundanity of maintaining a house or a hovel or a tent or a market stall are just as familiar to a city elf as to a city human. But the nuances of the desert are never as familiar to a city born elf as they are to a desert born one. Even a ranger would still ultimately come back to the city to roost in all likelihood, and would not know the wilds the same way as a desert elf would.

Tribeless elves are a rarity, especially in the case of the desert elves. In the desert, tribe is everything, it's how you survive. Being cast out of one's tribe is not a decision that any elf would make lightly, and even severe disagreements will often be mended. But, in the city, there are more opportunities to survive as a solo opportunist and more opportunities for someone to end up an orphan. So, being tribeless (at least, not having a blood-kin tribe) is potentially more common as a city elf.

But being alone, even as a city elf, would be horrible to the average elf. Even if it means testing a human or a dwarf for his trustability level, an average elf would still prefer to operate within a "tribe" than without. But elves, by nature, distrust -everyone-.  This is why they're often independent, because finding a trustworthy tribe is nearly impossible, and the effort doing so is extreme. A desert elf might be less likely inclined to spend time doing this for a non-elf than a city elf (for reasons of prejudice), but this varies from clan to clan.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

You may not create a city elf and then say that you came from the desert, or that you are one of the desert tribes.

Just to clarify, this was what I was trying to say in my first post.

[spawnloser]

Just so we're clear...

In character, can't I say that I come from the desert?  It's called lying and lots of people do it.

You do mean that I can't create a city elf and put in the background that I come from the desert.

[jstorrie]

You may claim, in-character, to be a tribal if you want to get tricksy with the roundears. This may be more or less believable. But you can't put it in your background - no lying there.

[Djarjak]

Right. Yes. In case this wasn't apparent.

[Ayashah]

It depends on how you go about putting it in your background in the end. If you want to 'claim' you are from the desert then you could put in that your elf really believes he was born of desert elves but was dumped/abandoned/only one alive/etc and floundered his way into the city/was brought in/etc.

It might be true, it might not be true. You would still have been raised 'in' the city therefore have 'perhaps' adapted to accepting yourself as a city raised elf, as you have been or you could have them yearn for the desert and try it out there. If you decide to do that, your elf has been raised 'city soft' so you wont have the ooc benefits of having lived your whole life in the sands.

That might be one way to 'claim' coming from the desert. Others in the city could rp it also in that they might think you think you are better than them and strive to make you miserable. Or might be jealous that you 'came' from the desert and strive to make you miserable. The possibilities are endless. In the end it will come down to how you do your background and whether or not the imm reviewing the app thinks it will fly.

Good luck

[Shalooonsh]

It depends on how you go about putting it in your background in the end. If you want to 'claim' you are from the desert then you could put in that your elf really believes he was born of desert elves but was dumped/abandoned/only one alive/etc and floundered his way into the city/was brought in/etc.

It might be true, it might not be true.

Actually to clarify, this would -not- be true.  E-var.

And in case someone had thought of the loophole, no, you can not app a d-elf and put in your background that you spent your entire life in the city.  Well, I mean, you can, but I can pretty much guarantee it's a waste of app time.

[Wday]

Why not if this is going to be role play I say go for it. The coded side of it will be the same but hey it free will role play.Just because you pick a class or whatever doesn't mean you have to play as that.

[Eternal]

Just because you pick a class or whatever doesn't mean you have to play as that.

Right... if you choose a guild or "class" you can play outside of it.  Races are different.  Dwarves cannot play a human, nor half-elves a mul.  Codedly and choice-wise city elves and desert elves are different, and the staff has weighed in before that their evolution may have divulged well over 1000 years in the past.  They are not the same thing and may not have been for millennia.  

LoD's remarks are legitimate in that city-elves and desert-elves are separated by at least dozens of generations of both environmental factors AND natural selection.  Desert elves that weren't conditioned and bred to survive desert environments wouldn't survive to breed in most cases.  It's easier for feeble city-elves to survive by other means.

-- X

RM:  Where in the documentation do you see any indication that the elven "races" divergence was more recent than 1000 years?  I'll go fix it, if that will make you feel better.

In the meantime, please moderate the tone of your posts.

-- X

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19828

[Djarjak]

Why not if this is going to be role play I say go for it. The coded side of it will be the same but hey it free will role play.Just because you pick a class or whatever doesn't mean you have to play as that.

For the same reason we don't allow hairy dwarves or honorable elves into the game.

There are physiological and psychological differences. If you want to play a desert elf, then apply for a desert elf. If you want to play a city elf, then apply for a city elf.

For those without the requisite Karma, you may still special app.

The case where you are a city elf who just plain lies about being a desert elf, that's fine by me. But, otherwise, what Shalooonsh said.

[Ayashah]

It depends on how you go about putting it in your background in the end. If you want to 'claim' you are from the desert then you could put in that your elf really believes he was born of desert elves but was dumped/abandoned/only one alive/etc and floundered his way into the city/was brought in/etc.

It might be true, it might not be true.

Actually to clarify, this would -not- be true.  E-var.

Umm, yes you could. That he 'believes' he was. Never implied or said that he actually WAS born in the desert. *wink* He can 'believe' whatever he wants so he can 'mentally' stress or whatever on his made up circumstances that made him a weak city raised elf.  Could just be insane or that was his way of coping with a life he hated.

To say its not true 'e-var' is a bit of a stretch. Maybe someone DID die but a baby was left. Someone brought it in, sold it off and moved on pocketing some sid. *shrugs*  Still wont change the ooc stats to be able to survive out of the city but would provide some interesting mental rp for the character if they believed it.

[Wday]

I understand dwarves can't play as humans and so on.BUT elves are elves and I think we all have to look pass the coded parts of th game.So you play a city elf role play him wanting thinking and gut feeling he is desert elf then go for it, the codes will still be coded as city elf but the mind-set can be anything. keep it real but not coded try not to even think of codes and play as a person in any race just because we pick classes and stuff doesn't mean you HAVE to play as that try it I swear it's fun.

[spawnloser]

The problem is, any city elf that tries to live as a desert elf will be quickly educated on his failings in that department.

A city elf that is posing as a desert elf is different.

[LoD]

The problem is, any city elf that tries to live as a desert elf will be quickly educated on his failings in that department.

A city elf that is posing as a desert elf is different.

I'm assuming that your second comment was meant to read "A desert elf that is posing as a city elf is different."

If we're talking purely about coded stamina limitations, then sure, but there are plenty of other disadvantages desert elves will face upon entering a city and attempting to mimic a city elf lifestyle.  That's why the race is 1 karma, because it takes some responsibility on the part of the player to embrace those disadvantages and bring them to light as they play their character.

-LoD

[Eternal]

BUT elves are elves

Ahh, but you see... desert elves are NOT city elves, that's what I was trying to point out in my post above (and what the Xygax quotes were all about).  They have evolved differently, not just codedly... they are not the same.  

For example:  A chihuahua is a dog, a husky is a dog... would you hitch both of them to a sled for the Iditarod?  They are both dogs, but have evolved along different lines and are different psychological and physiological entities.  They share the same pack mentality (like elven tribalism) and possess similar instincts (think thiefly appreciation) but do not react the same way in various circumstances.

Hmm... wonder if there are any common allundean epithets for city-dwelling elves or vice versa... perhaps something borrowed from Bendune for demeaning the city-tribes and something else for pointing out the savage waste-walkers.  Just a thought, tribes love to hate each other, especially if separated by great differences.

[spawnloser]

The problem is, any city elf that tries to live as a desert elf will be quickly educated on his failings in that department.

A city elf that is posing as a desert elf is different.

I'm assuming that your second comment was meant to read "A desert elf that is posing as a city elf is different."

If we're talking purely about coded stamina limitations, then sure, but there are plenty of other disadvantages desert elves will face upon entering a city and attempting to mimic a city elf lifestyle.  That's why the race is 1 karma, because it takes some responsibility on the part of the player to embrace those disadvantages and bring them to light as they play their character.

-LoD

Actually, it goes either way.  Both have things they weren't bred or raised to do that the other can.  It's hard to pose as one when you're the other.

[Djarjak]

Let me clarify from my personal point of view. The notes in this post do not reflect an official all staff opinion.

If you are a city elf race, and your background says you're a bastard of <some desert elven tribe> left at the gates of <some citystate> because of <some really bad trauma> and were raised in the citystate under <some mysterious circumstances>, so you've always sought your desert elven brethren and had pride in your desert elven heritage, expect to be rejected unless you special app it with the staff over that desert elven clan first. It is forbidden to use established clans in your background without approval from the immortal sponsor of the clan, and desert elves are not allowed to exist outside of the sponsored clans at this time.

If you are a city elf race, and you have no idea who your parents are, and you choose through some crazy mental delusion, to believe you're really a desert elf, then there's no reason you would spend a day longer than that in the city. The definition of a desert elf is they don't live in the cities. So when you leave the city and live in the desert and are exposed to real desert elves, you will very quicky learn that you are not a desert elf, as you do not have a corresponding tribal identity, upbringing, or the physiology to support the type of life that real desert elves live. So it's not a terribly realistic background. The background should really be something that defines your character rather than a brief delusion of your character.  

If you are a city elf race, and you have no idea who your parents are, and you have lived your entire life in the city, and one day you -role play- that you found someone who claims to have seen a baby abandoned, then decide in character to discover this, you can feel free to role play having your illusions shattered. But it's not a valid background.

If you are a city elf race, and you decide it would be fun to pretend to be a desert elf as an outright IC liar, I wish you all the power in the world, and hope you survive the real desert elves finding out about it.

If you find something outside of these examples that you think might work, I would highly advise you to e-mail the appropriate staff before you apply so that you can avoid an unnecessary rejection.