Single Skill Subguilds

[Anonymous]

What do you guys think about a select number of single skill subguilds?  Providing these skills had lower limits on how good the selector could get with them...

Some that I thought of were:

Merchant's Apprentice (Cavalish)
Swordsman (Slashing Weapons)
Spotter (Scan)
Lurker (Hide)

The one nearest to my heart is Cavalish, having had one too many non-merchant guild PCs with a Bazaar background having their guild determined because they couldn't speak it.

The problem with a weapons subguild would be that every non-combat guild PC would take it.

But then that's no different than other subguilds that get chosen more often than others because of a specific skill they give....

Personally the biggest reason I'd like to see Slashing Weapons and Cavalish available is that as it stands now anyone who speaks cavalish you can now know, to an almost certain extent, that they are going to be vulnerable in some way shape or form.

Adding Cavalish and Slashing Weapons as subguilds will help muddy the waters for those who intentionally or inadvertantly involve OOC knowledge with their PC's actions.

Beyond that, I just think it would be fun to have a few more choices for what you can do with your guild.  But then again this could be a horrible idea since I lack the ability to forecast the future.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

For Cavalish, yes, definetly. For sneaking, sure, why not? For scanning, um, sure I guess, but I couldn't imagine why anyone would pick such a (IMO) weak skill. As for slashing weapons... I would personally be a bit hesitant on that.

The reason is that anyone can pick up a sword and swing it around. Slashing weapons skill represents either natural talent in the ability or some form of teaching or what not. Of course, you could argue that your rich merchant took fencing lessons or some such. But if that's the case, then you could always hire a teacher, take the lessons, then send a log or something (Not quite sure how it works) and ask to have the skill added to the list.

I seem to recall some one suggesting a similar idea with weapons subguilds. The general reply from the Imms was a firm no-no. The reason for this, as one of the wise Imms said, was let's your character is a defiler. Fair enough. He spent his whole life studying ancient texts or whatever and expirementing with mighty spells. Then, randomly, Mr. Sorceror decides he wants to learn the art of smashing things, also known as bludgeoning weapons. So, he joins the Byn or something, grabs a sparring club, and begins to knock the crap out of his fellow Runners. At this point (According to whatever Imm that wrote this), Mr. Sorceror is probably begining to forget his ancient spells and etc., and is more concerned with growing muscle mass. Therefore, with a bit of Imm intervention, Mr. Sorceror could very well could gain the 'bludgeoning weapons' skill... At the cost of his magickal ability.

I'm not trying to speak on behalf of the Imms or whatever, I'm just saying whoever it was that said that (I forget who, and even if I did remember, I wouldn't say) had a very good point. But beyond that, I'd like the idea of seeing single skill subguilds, maybe even new subguilds in general. I mean, hey, if you're a merchant's apprentice, then you might know a smattering of Cavilish, along with the basics on how to haggle or make pretty things out of rocks, or whatever. Just some thoughts.

[crymerci]

I would support any crafting subclass starting out with a smattering of cavilish. I would also support linguists being able to learn it in the same manner bards do, if they don't already (i.e. able to learn but starting from 0 skill).

I'm not sure how I feel about weapon skills in subclasses, and I'm not sure what the merchant class gets, but I could see the potential in a capped weapon skill. However, I think that everyone gets shield use, and really that seems more in keeping with what a city merchant would find useful.

Re: scan and hide, I don't know all the combinations of skills gained from the various classes/subclasses so I don't really have an opinion there.

I would like to say, however, that the one skill I have missed most when I don't have it is listen. It is, IMO, the best skill in the game, :wink: and I wish everyone started out with it.

[Anonymous]

I would like to say, however, that the one skill I have missed most when I don't have it is listen. It is, IMO, the best skill in the game, :wink: and I wish everyone started out with it.

See, I disagree completely.  Considering how its implemented, its way overpowered, IMHO.  I cannot imagine being able to listen to every conversation going on at dozens of tables in a bar.  I've been in one bar, but I had a hard time hearing someone sitting at the bar with me, let alone people at another table.

I wish *less* people had it.  I don't enjoy being without it, but with everyone having listen you end up with a situation where everyone sits around talking about nothing even more than happens now.

Anyways, going back to your response, I agree on any weapon skill would need to be capped.  The way I would imagine it a weapon skill gained from a subguild would allow the PC to become competent at best.

[Votrik]

I want to see a 'cook' subguild, what do you guys think?

[Lazloth]

I want to see a 'cook' subguild, what do you guys think?

It's called house servant.

[Votrik]

^
\
  --- Is an idiot

Thanks Lazloth

[Hoodwink]

I'd like to see Cavilish remain an elite language.  Make it a subguild and suddenly everyone knows how to speak it.  I don't believe it's a secret language, but I do believe it's one of those things that cheapens the experience once it's readily available.  If you have a character who truly wishes to learn Cavilish, try and learn IC.  It'll make the fact that you can speak that tongue that much more respectible.  While it's certainly realistic for someone to be raised by merchants to decide trading isn't the life for him/her and to become a swordsman, I think the game balance has to outweight realism in this instance.

[Lazloth]

I think the game balance has to outweight realism in this instance.

Game balance?  Come on.

I think CRW has some valid points.  I don't personally feel that his proposed skills need to be limited to one-skill-subguilds (ie., why not re-evaluate the current set and adjust accordingly?) ... On the issue of cavilish, again, I wholly agree.  Unless there's a spec app involved, any linguist [in absentia] or merchant immediately knows what they're proverbially up against when the tongue wags.

I would like to say, however, that the one skill I have missed most when I don't have it is listen. It is, IMO, the best skill in the game, :wink: and I wish everyone started out with it.

See, I disagree completely.  Considering how its implemented, its way overpowered, IMHO.  I cannot imagine being able to listen to every conversation going on at dozens of tables in a bar.  I've been in one bar, but I had a hard time hearing someone sitting at the bar with me, let alone people at another table.

Again, I am of the same opinion.

[Anonymous]

I'd like to see Cavilish remain an elite language.  Make it a subguild and suddenly everyone knows how to speak it.

If Cavilish was all that was available in a subguild I don't agree that everyone would speak it.  Most martial type PCs might go for something like a crafting subguild or mercenary.  It would be more prevalent, yes, but I am not sure that a large percentage of PCs would take it.

I don't believe it's a secret language, but I do believe it's one of those things that cheapens the experience once it's readily available.  If you have a character who truly wishes to learn Cavilish, try and learn IC.  It'll make the fact that you can speak that tongue that much more respectible.  While it's certainly realistic for someone to be raised by merchants to decide trading isn't the life for him/her and to become a swordsman, I think the game balance has to outweight realism in this instance.

Good points.  But one of the reasons I'd like to see Cavilish as a single skill subguild would be for game balance.  I had a PC that wasn't merchant guild but whose starting skills made him able to conduct himself in a very similar manner.  His background was as someone who had worked in the bazaar but had different inclinations.  But it would have been perfectly reasonable for him to have a smattering of Cavilish.

He got himself setup for a job interview and whether or not the PC that was interviewing him was guild fishing or not (I don't particularly think that was the case) when it came out that he didn't have Cavilish then it became apparent he wasn't a certain guild.

Obviously people are supposed to keep such OOC considerations out of their RP.  But its hard to do.  Adding Cavilish as a skill gained through subguilds would make it a lot easier to RP that the newbie PC you are talking to who is speaking flawless Cavilish might very well not be a harmless merchant guild PC.

Basically this comes down to an issue I have with being able to indentify a PC's class based on a situation they cannot control.  They cannot speak Cavilish without the skill, so by asking them a question in Cavilish they can be indentified as a merchant or not.

But a merchant guild PC can pass themselves off as a warrior.  Other guilds are not readily indentifiable, and certainly not through a situation that the player cannot control.  They can just be really, really bad at what they are doing.

[Hot_Dancer]

Heh, has anyone else sat in a restaurant thinking Arm listen skill and tried to catch the conversation at the next booth?

I don't like single skill subguilds. Scan for instance is very powerful skill. Every flippin' warrior classed pc in the mud would take it to avoid getting ninja'd by all the stealthy types out there who sacrifice combat ability to get such skills. Heh. Isn't the staff still sorting through balance problems subguilds are posing?

I guess you could do
Defensive fighter - (Parry)
*heh* Yeah right.

Hot_Dancer

[Anonymous]

Heh, has anyone else sat in a restaurant thinking Arm listen skill and tried to catch the conversation at the next booth?

I don't like single skill subguilds. Scan for instance is very powerful skill. Every flippin' warrior classed pc in the mud would take it to avoid getting ninja'd by all the stealthy types out there who sacrifice combat ability to get such skills. Heh.

Its a good point, but.....

Note:
  Listen has some affect on the detection of sneaking.

So certain guilds would have to choose between getting snuck up upon or not getting hidden from.  It wouldn't render stealthy types pointless.

It would make it so that you are no longer able to, whether intentionally or not, know that you can pull off certain stealth skills against a PC because you saw them perform a certain coded action.

Isn't the staff still sorting through balance problems subguilds are posing?

Hmm, I wasn't aware of that.

My point in proposing this specific subguilds isn't so that my next merchant can kick some ass.  Its more so that the lines between guilds are blurred and people who are well aware of the code will not necessarily be able to know for sure that they can walk into someone's house and hide without fear of being found.  Or so that because you saw someone talk a certain language they can't smack you down.

The approach I've suggested might not be a good idea, but it was my first thought for something I think is problematic.  That being, namely, being able to know that certain skills will work against another PC because they displayed the ability to use a small set of telltale skills.

[Bardex]

From what I understand, if you RP out some "training sessions" and send the log with a request to the mud, it's possible to get a new skill added to your skills list anyway. Obviously some skills wouldn't make any sense to get added, such as a house servant suddenly being a skilled whiran, or an assassin learning to make flower arrangements.

Given that though, one thing that might be nice (a wish, not really a suggestion) is to have one additional "primary" skill and one additional "secondary" skill to choose out of a menu of available skills for your character when you create it.

So for example you pick a burglar/clothworking combo for your character. You get the usual skills each of those normally comes with.

You -also- have a few options: for secondary, you could add a single "rank" boost to the contact skill, or a single branch of dyeing, or something interesting with cooking, etc.

For the primary, maybe you could add "piercing" weapons to throw, or maybe a single "rank" boost to lockpicking, or start out already able to listen without spam-listening a hundred times before it finally kicks in. Or maybe even have the "hiding" skill give you some vague idea of whether or not you're successful, with an echo like..

"You attempt to blend into the shadows, confident that you haven't been noticed."

or

"You attempt to blend in with the shadows, but realize your foot is sticking out from the corner."

Or something like that.

The point would give everyone the opportunity to pick ONE THING that they'd start out being just slightly better at than if they didn't pick that one thing. And the list they could pick from would be limited so as not to upset the balance of the game.

It would give each person the chance to specialize, but still require them to work hard to attain mastery.

[Angela Christine]

I'd like to see Cavilish remain an elite language.  Make it a subguild and suddenly everyone knows how to speak it.  

Um, no.  I doubt very many people would select a subguild that's most powerful skill was a rarely-used language.  Do we have a lot of people selecting Nomad and Caravan Guide so they can listen in on the occasional Bendune converstation?  I doubt it.


You can be decended from the Dune Traders without taking the Merchant guild.  Rangers can make fantastic traveling traders in the Dune Trader tradition; he has his mount, his pack animal, his inventory, and he's alert to the dangers of the road.  On the other hand Merchants really need a wagon or a cadre of guards to travel anywhere.  There are many subguilds that allow a non-Merchant to get a piece of the crafting action, a Trader subguild would let them take some of the non-crafter aspects of being a Merchant.


Here are some more subguild ideas, although we are running out of letters and I don't know what will happen when we get to Z.   :shock:


Trader - Cavalish, Haggle.

Eavesdropper - Climb, Listen.

Tanner - Skin, Tanning, Leatherworking.

Savage - Throw, Skin, Spear making.


Angela Christine

[Anonymous]

Here are some more subguild ideas, although we are running out of letters and I don't know what will happen when we get to Z.   :shock:

Trader - Cavalish, Haggle.

Sounds good, but I'd rather see value or something else other than haggle.  Can't we give those poor NPC shopkeepers a break?  Maybe its just me but it seems like there is more than a fair share of subguilds with haggle.

Eavesdropper - Climb, Listen.

I like this a lot, provided listen is removed from other subguilds and not available to a few other guilds.  I'm fast becoming a curmudgeon when it comes to the listen skill.  If listen was changed so that its user wasn't suddenly omniscient of all conversations in the room and all adjacent rooms...then I think another subguild with listen wouldn't be so bad.

Tanner - Skin, Tanning, Leatherworking.

You know, I really like that one.  Maybe it could be called skinner instead of tanner.  I don't know why, just skinner sounds cooler.

Savage - Throw, Skin, Spear making.

Totally awesome.  I really like that combo.

[Kronus]

Eavesdropper - Climb, Listen

I'd argue against this one. Contrary to popular opinion, the main strength of the burglar guild isn't the ability to pick locks - primarily due to the difficulty finding picks, much less houses with things inside still worth stealing - but the ability to climb and listen. No other guild, as far as I know, gets both of those skills in their package.
With my own burglars, I got hired a LOT more often to go spy on people than I did to break in anywhere (hint: I never got hired to break in anywhere). Giving this ability to anyone who takes a subguild would, in my opinion, dramatically reduce the ability for burglars just starting their careers to find any work.

Savage - Throw, Skin, Spear making.

I'm not sure why, but I find this one vaguely offensive, to be honest. Like it somehow implies that all tribal people are just a bunch of unsophisticated spear-chuckers wearing skins cut straight off the hoof. Beyond that, I'm not really sure that Arm needs a 'Zulu' subguild. Being a savage entails a whole lot more than just a subguild. For instance, a Pickpocket/Savage would just be an absurdly implausible combination. If people really want to play savages, I'd much rather see them go with a ranger/rebel or ranger/weaponcrafter combination.

[Lazloth]

I'd take AC's suggestions with a grain of salt, Kronus.

One thing I would posit, though, is that every main guild/class has a skill or set of skills that define it (eg., pick for burglars, camping for rangers, backstab for assassins (slowly my example deteriorates), bash for warriors.. etc)   At any rate, I would think to some degree these are sacrosanct;  in other words, I would have less of a problem should 'climb' and 'listen' find themselves bundled together than offering 'pick'.

(Above example as there are numerous ways to add 'climb' and 'listen' to your skillsheet, but only one to get 'pick'.)

[Angela Christine]

Savage - Throw, Skin, Spear making.

I'm not sure why, but I find this one vaguely offensive, to be honest. Like it somehow implies that all tribal people are just a bunch of unsophisticated spear-chuckers wearing skins cut straight off the hoof. Beyond that, I'm not really sure that Arm needs a 'Zulu' subguild. Being a savage entails a whole lot more than just a subguild. For instance, a Pickpocket/Savage would just be an absurdly implausible combination. If people really want to play savages, I'd much rather see them go with a ranger/rebel or ranger/weaponcrafter combination.

Er, are you offended by the name, or by the combo?

Every now and then you'll see someone who wants to play a hunter, but wants to be a hunter that uses throwing spears instead of bows & arrows.  Your two main guilds for being a buff old hunter may branch Throw, but who has the patience to wait?  I know I don't.     Spear making isn't and incredibly powerful skill, as crafting skills go, but it lends the sense that this subguild is for hunting rather than chucking daggers into taverns.  Skinning is there because being any kind of hunter sucks if you can't skin.  Again, your two big hunter type guilds start with skin, but if you want to be an Assassin-hunter or a magicker-hunter, well, why the hell not?  Magickers have to eat too, at least until we find out where they are hiding and kill them.

So this is similar to the Hunter and Archer subguilds, except with throwing spears instead of bows and arrows.  What would YOU call it?  The obvious answer is "Hunter" but that is already taken.  "Spear Hunter" is inelegant, and somebody would probably complain that they naturally thought they were getting the "Hunt" skill, and they feel terribly cheated since they didn't get it.  "Spear chucker" is even more inelegant.  I spent over 30 minutes last night fiddling with a couple different online thesauruses and search engines trying to find a name.  Zulu actually came up as one of the suggestions, but that seemed rude.  "Huntsman" sounds cool, but apparently refers to someone that hunts with dogs.  Spearman?  It's like swordsman, but with spears, unfortunately it sounds like a second-rate superhero.  I'm open to suggestions here.  

Angela Christine

[Callisto]

Tanner and Savage are a couple of great subguild ideas, you should e-mail them in to the mud account. Just wanted to voice my support for them.

[Malifaxis]

IMHO all the subguilds are killer, awesome suggestions AC!

Perhaps it would be possible to give a list of, per se, two or three choices per class on skill variations?  For example, on char gen, a ranger would choose Throw or Archery.  Or perhaps just the option of taking a negative to one skill in order to pick up a basic knowledge in another.  Say a warrior/weaponscrafter takes a hit to his spearcraft in order to spend a year or so learning cavilish.  It makes sense to me that anyone with any form of merchandising experience would have a *chance* to pick up Cavilish due to exposure.

Granted, there would be various ways to twink things... possibly.  But it would be very easy to spot during the app process, methinks.  And it would give a killer amount of variety to the basic classes, and put a lot of guess work in to those shifty cavilishers.