Zalanthan Pregnancy and Modern Day Pregnancy

[Bebop]

This was just on my mind recently since my husband and I were discussing something akin to natural childbirth a day or so ago.  I've experienced this with one of my first characters who was very tribal.  To here having children was a pretty mundane and simple thing.  Women of her tribe were expected to have children and often did with frequency while still maintaing a degree of physical  labor.

In modern day society, woman are drugged up, cut, forceps are used, and many companies offer weeks of a pregnancy absence.  There are baby showers and a maternity ward, and tons of literature and the "best" way to do this or that.

I think that sometimes are ideals of modern day pregnancy linger into Zalanthas.  Often times it's questionable how to RP knowing you are pregnant and then how to react to the pregnancy.  And of course there would possibly be a difference between city and tribal bith traditions.  In some of the documentation there are some people that have birthing traditions and as a side note, I would like to see a few more commoner traditions and parties to flesh out the "mundane" character's lives.

What I would like to make note of is that before modern medicine many times woman did not lay down when they were giving birth.  They would stand and with the aid of a helper to hold them up they would push out the child and the midwife would safely guide the child out with her hands and deal with any complications as the baby "arrived."  There was pretty much little to no cutting the woman simply stood or squatted and pushed the baby out.

In some Native American Cultures it was not uncommon for the woman to continue her work through the camp, have the child, gain back her strength through the length of a day or less, then strap the child to her back and continue on through her daily routine while also tending to the child.  It was a very accepted natural process, that was celebrated some what but there was not alot of mystery or any literature surrounding the process, just a small amount of alchohol or other type of soothing drug at the most, maybe some  herbs and then the woman did her part.

I find that sometimes our expectations of modern birth carry over onto Zalanthas, or we know that the average Zalanthan wound be ignorant but we're not sure how ignorant they would be.  Sometimes I have seen people that are tribals say oh you shouldn't be out running around and such, while I'm not sure pregnant tribal woman would be fighting close range, I still think they would be tending to other duties as best they could, foraging, crafting, cooking and cleaning like anyone else in the tribe.  Unlike in the modern world where women take weeks and days off from their work in Zalanthas I can see maybe the day of the childbirth being the only time a tribal would rest.  Then they would continue on and who knows maybe become impregnated again within the coming months.

As far as not knowing if you are/your mate is pregnant.  I think woman would know faster then I have played it and some others I see have played it.  If you are tired, sore, throwing up - I think immediately if you have been kanking you are going to think, oh no I'm pregnant!  I know even IRL if my body has the slightest change I think oh no!  What if I'm pregnant!  It's something woman definitely worry about if they aren't ready to have children, and I think sometimes woman in Zalanthas are to ignorant in that area.

As far as not knowing how to deal with the pregnancy I think that would be casual chatter around woman, there isn't much to having someone guide out the child, toke up on some spice and push the child out.  So I think sometimes we over complicate the ideals of pregnancy and the complications of modern medicine into our ideals of how Zalathans would react to it.

Also though we in our society tend to few new life as precious, one thing you also have to remember is a woman may see her child as nothing more than a nuisance or particular meal ticket to her other three children that slipped past the mul mix if she can only find the right slave buyer.  How you are RP it us up to you, but there are so many diverse ways to play pregnancy in Zalanthas lots of ideas for creativity in the situations.  I also would hope that people can get a more in depth look at child birth in the RP instead of just role playing throwing up from time to time or whatever.  There can be alot of emotional, physical and financial conflict going on.  I've seen alot of people say that a character's child is nothing but a prompt and I personally would like to see people get away from this mindset - but that is just a personal opinion.

Don't really have a question to present, just wanted to start some discussion on opinions of this type of things and other ideas to people considering RPing pregnancy presently or in the future since it can be quiet a tricky thing to RP through (and a long one.)

[mansa]

http://www.armageddon.org/general/pregnancy.html

[Gimfalisette]

This was on my mind recently because a friend mentioned someone RPing pregnancy poorly--something along the lines of "em turns on her barstool, pregnant belly shaking like a bowful of jelly." (Pregnant bellies are NOT soft and shaky, they are actually extremely firm and hard.)

So for future use, I started plotting out pregnancy milestones in terms of Zalanthan days, and I thought this might be useful. Note: This is for human RP only and might need to be converted for other races with longer or shorter gestation times.

A human pregnancy is 40 weeks long from the first day of last menstruation. Formula for converting Earth weeks to Zalanthan days, in order to exactly calculate the pregnancy based on equivalent years, is ((EarthWeeks*7)/365)*693.

Milestone / Earth Weeks / Zalanthan Days
Menstruation - Week 0 / Day 0
Ovulation/Fertilization - Week 2 / Day 27
Missed Period - Week 4 / Day 53 *
First Trimester Symptom Onset - Week 5 / Day 66 **
End of First Trimester - Week 13 / Day 173 ***
Showing 2nd+ Pregnancy - Week 13 / Day 173 ****
Showing 1st Pregnancy - Week 16 / Day 213
Quickening 2nd+ Pregnancy - Week 16 / Day 213 *****
Quickening 1st Pregnancy - Week 18 / Day 239
End of 2nd Trimester - Week 27 / Day 359 ******
Earliest Survival - Week 36 / Day 478 *******
Full-Term Birth - Week 40 / Day 532

* Most adult women are pretty in tune with their bodies and know when their period is supposed to come. If it's a week late, and the woman has been having sex regularly, then she's likely to suspect pregnancy. By the time the second missed period comes around, the woman knows for sure. It wouldn't be crazy to RP a woman who didn't "know" she was pregnant until some extremely long time into the pregnancy...but I think most Zalanthans would think that was pretty odd.

** First trimester symptoms will probably present themselves sometime between week 5 and week 8 of the pregnancy, will be most severe between about weeks 7 to 10-12, and will probably subside by the end of the first trimester. Symptoms can include: Mild to moderate nausea (common), severe nausea (less common), vomiting (really not as common as people think), extreme tiredness and sleepiness (very common), distate for all food or for particular types of food (common), moderate to severe breast tenderness (common), mood swings from weepiness to crankiness (common), worry and fear (very common), ligament stretching pains in the abdomen (common), "pregnancy brain" (absentmindedness, forgetfulness, inability to concentrate). If a pregnancy is going to miscarry, this is by far the most common time for it to happen (around 7-10 weeks).

*** Toward the beginning of the second trimester, most women start to feel physically much better. Appetite returns, and a large appetite is a common 2nd-trimester symptom. Although a woman may retain distate for particular foods, she may also start having cravings for particular foods or combinations of foods. Energy returns, and the pregnant woman may feel more confident and joyful. This is the time of "pregnancy glow." Pregnancy brain clears up quite a bit. Miscarriage is fairly rare, is actually a lot like birth when it happens due to the size of the fetus, and only happens due to some fairly extreme circumstances (incompetent cervix, placenta previa, death of fetus in utero).

**** Women "show" (that is, their pregnant bellies start to pop out) earlier in second or subsequent pregnancies. This will likely happen sometime between weeks 12 and 14 for 2nd+. Pregnant bellies that have popped out and are showing are VERY HARD. Like a flexed bicep muscle. This is surprising to people who've never touched one before, however, the uterus (which is what the pregnant belly is, just covered in a bit of fat and skin) is a muscle and a nice strong one at that.

***** Quickening is an old term for "feeling the baby move." This happens earlier in 2nd+ pregnancies because the mom is more experienced and notices it better. At first, only the mother will be able to feel these very tiny, butterfly-like or twitching movements in her abdomen. It takes a month or so for anyone else to be able to feel the tiny kicks and punches.

****** The end of the 2nd trimester / beginning of 3rd - the pregnant woman likely has a fairly large belly by this time. "Huge" bellies happen at 7-9 months pregnant (34-40 weeks). Symptoms of the 3rd trimester include tiredness again, possible loss of appetite or inability to eat much because there's no room in the stomach, getting kicked/punched by the baby so much that it hurts (especially in the cervix, ow), preparation/worry about the impending birth (nesting), loosening of the pelvis causing clumsiness and awkward walking, "waddling." Breasts get bigger and prepare for milk production. The mother's nipples may darken and she may develop a line of dark pigmentation on her stomach. Toward the very end, women may feel very strongly that they are just ready to "get this over with and get this baby out of me."

******* I estimate without modern technology, this is about the earliest a Zalanthan baby could be born and survive.

[mansa]

:Edited:

Remember:   Zalanthas has 3 months at 231 days in each month.

[Cuusardo]

In general, women of Zalanthas would be tougher than your average modern woman due to the fact that she does not have the modern conveniences, technology, or medical advances that we do.  (Yes folks, the modern world has turned us soft.)

I think that your average commoner (and tribal) would continue working while pregnant for as long as physically possible, because she can't survive if she spends the entire time lying around.  I also think that Zalanthan women would miscarry more often because of it, and not necessarily be sad about that fact.  It is one less mouth to feed, after all.  The midwives they would have access to would be a mother, sister, cousin, neighbor, etc.  Unwanted children would be happily sold into slavery by a poor woman without so much as batting an eyelash.

Higher class commoners who can afford to take some time off, as well as nobility, would more than likely be taking it easy and pampering themselves during pregnancy.  They would be more likely to take precautions as not to miscarry, because they are important, and it's important that they breed to carry on their family lines.  (Hence marriage contracts within merchant and noble houses.)  Their midwives would be professionals that have received the best training possible.

I know I've posted this before, but I think it's worth posting again.  I often use this website as a guideline for roleplaying out pregnancies with my PCs.  http://www.med.umich.edu/obgyn/smartmoms/index.htm

[Gimfalisette]

I think you should change the estimate from Earth Weeks -> Zalanthas Weeks to be more like Earth Years -> Zalanthas Years.

It's a faulty computation at start to compare the weeks people are alive.  Years is the better system.

Respectfully, mansa, read what I wrote and check the calculation. It is based on Earth years = Zalanthan years. Notice that ((EarthWeeks*7)/365)*693 includes the exact days for both year lengths in it.

[mansa]

oh shoot.

I forgot that it's 231 in a month, and not a year.

sorry!

[Gimfalisette]

I also think that Zalanthan women would miscarry more often because of it, and not necessarily be sad about that fact... Higher class commoners who can afford to take some time off, as well as nobility, would more than likely be taking it easy and pampering themselves during pregnancy.  They would be more likely to take precautions as not to miscarry, because they are important, and it's important that they breed to carry on their family lines.[/url]

I don't have any third-world Earth statistics to go on, but from my knowledge and experience with miscarriage, I don't think that harsher conditions or lack of modern medical care are going to produce more miscarriages. Most first-trimester miscarriages are due to something genetically wrong with the fetus. Most second-trimester miscarriages are due to something unpreventably wrong with the mother's own physiology (incompetent cervix, placenta previa). Even if a mom doesn't eat much and spends the whole first trimester puking, her baby will likely be alright (as long as she stays hydrated). And it takes a fair amount of alcohol or drug use to actually damage a baby. So tougher conditions for me doesn't equate to more miscarriages. Physical exertion and hard work have nothing to do with miscarriage. Even a severe fall or something like a car accident usually has no effect on a developing baby, because the growing baby is well-protected in a cozy bag of water inside a strong muscle.

The one factor on Zalanthas that I think WOULD lead to a higher rate of miscarriage is the prevalence of mutations. Mutations mean genetic errors, and genetic errors cause miscarriage.

Normally, the rate of miscarriage is about 15% in detected pregnancies. (Past 5 to 6 or so Earth weeks of gestation.) Due to mutations I could see it being higher on Zalanthas, say 25% or so.

[Barzalene]

One thing I really enjoyed with the pc with which I rped pregnancies was the superstition factor. Like she made sure to have plenty of wine, cause wine is good and must be good for the baby right? Also, she always wore a veil outside, so that no mutants could see her face and curse her child with mutations.

I really reccomend throwing out the Doctor Spock when approaching pregnancy birth and child rearing on arm. For instance, I think more people should beat their brats.

[Cuusardo]

The one factor on Zalanthas that I think WOULD lead to a higher rate of miscarriage is the prevalence of mutations. Mutations mean genetic errors, and genetic errors cause miscarriage.

Bingo.  Mutations are more likely prevalent in lower class people IMO, because they do not take great care to prevent them through breeding.

[Cuusardo]

Edit: double post, sorry!

[LauraMars]

Bingo.  Mutations are more likely prevalent in lower class people IMO, because they do not take great care to prevent them through breeding.

They are likely prevalent in the upper class as well, because of all that INBREEDING.

[Bebop]

I've also seen multiple people act as though commoner women should take breaks from their work and even criticize the pregnant woman for continuing to work etc though the woman would starve to death and not be able to provide for the coming child if she didn't work.  Maybe that is a triabl vs. mentality but I would think city woman would consider child bearing just "another part of life" and understand that most people must continue working even in poor conditions to survive and provide for the coming child, not to mention some sell and abandon the children.

That is one thing I have prominently noticed that PC commoners tend to feel really cushy towards children.  Even I catch myself doing it, because of the values that I have towards children IRL but what you have to remind yourself of is that your PC would probably see disheveled starving children pretty frequently.

[spawnloser]

LauraMars, just to clear something up.

The increase chance of mutation (on Earth) from cousins having sex with each other is 10%.  However, the chance of a mutation starts at .1%...so the inbreeding incrases it to .11%...still WAY less than 1%.  Mutation isn't the worry of inbreeding, degeneration of the bloodline is.  (I will admit that chances of mutation are higher to start in Zalanthas, but probably not THAT much higher.)

The problem with inbreeding is passing dangerous recessive traits on...note that these are NOT mutations, but simply weaknesses.  Like, some person has an unnaturally lower tolerance to the common cold and has kids.  Both children would have the recessive gene, and if they were to have kids together, they are breeding that trait back into their children.

[Lizzie]

Many real-world mutations are what you're talking about spawnloser. recessive traits and recessive genes.

Blue eyes is caused by a recessive gene and is neither life-threatening, nor a mutation, though blue-eyed people are more likely to have vision problems as they get older, and are more likely to be sensitive to sunlight. Extra cartilege at the end of the spine (commonly called a vestigial tail) is a fairly common mutation caused by a recessive gene.  Webbed toes and fingers, ear-flaps, gill-slits, extra nipples, all mutations caused by recessive genes, and none of them are dangerous. They're just very strange looking

The .11% you refer to may be accurate, if you are considering a pair of cousins mating, in a family that doesn't normally mate with each other. In a family which has evolved over dozens of generations of in-breeding, mutations are likely much more common, at least in humans.

L. Stanson

[spawnloser]

Something I did forget to mention, I will also admit that Zalanthan mutations are often much more noticeable than Earth mutations.

Going back to the percentages...every generation, having the 10% increase, over time, the chance does raise...but by 10% in every generation.

[Cuusardo]

First of all, noble and merchant families don't just breed among their own blood.  They breed with other families.  Quite often, in fact.

Second of all, when have you ever seen a mutant merchant or noble family member?  Granted, there will be some minor mutations or things that are overlooked, but chances are, the families take precautions to keep these things from happening through selective breeding.  If a child comes up mutated in a way that would prove to be undesirable, that child is either not allowed to do public work or breed, is sold into slavery, killed...you just don't know for sure what they do.

And last, but certainly not least, Zalanthas is not earth.  You have to suspend beliefs and common knowledge of the real world in this case.  You can believe that someone would be born with purple skin, bulging eyes, and wings, but you can't believe that mutations would be more common?

[Dresan]

It should be noted though that children are the only pension plans in Zalanthas so raising a few good ones to fall back on should a person grow old or become disabled is probably going through all the minds of zalanthians at some point. Even the very poor might try for at least one or two good ones any extras disposed by other means, the wealthier folk might try for more depending on their situation.

Doesn't mean you have to roleplay it but at least virtually I would think that for most long lived PCs, they eventually might have a mate or two and a definately few children they had a part in raising some way. This is esspecially true if the PC works for a house. These are elite jobs that besides good pay usually provide food and water for the PC and their families.

[Dalmeth]

Granted, there will be some minor mutations or things that are overlooked, but chances are, the families take precautions to keep these things from happening through selective breeding.

Selective breeding to prevent mutation isn't reliable on Zalanthas.  Another force is at work that mutates the unborn.  So, while specific traits may be determined as being in the gene pool, a large portion of mutations will be real mutations that occured in one generation.

That throws off any calculation and makes selective breeding seem less like a sure solution.

[Nao]

First of all, noble and merchant families don't just breed among their own blood.  They breed with other families.  Quite often, in fact.

The gene pool is still very small - that'S what happened with medieval european nobles.

Granted, there will be some minor mutations or things that are overlooked, but chances are, the families take precautions to keep these things from happening through selective breeding.

I'm pretty sure that there is no concept of genetics in zalanthas - even if nobles come out with genetic diseases or mutations more often, how likely is it that they blame it on their 'pure' blood when there's a million other things to blame instead (mutants, magickers, superstition...)?[/quote]

[Anonymous]

What I would like to make note of is that before modern medicine many times woman did not lay down when they were giving birth.  They would stand and with the aid of a helper to hold them up they would push out the child and the midwife would safely guide the child out with her hands and deal with any complications as the baby "arrived."  There was pretty much little to no cutting the woman simply stood or squatted and pushed the baby out.

In some Native American Cultures it was not uncommon for the woman to continue her work through the camp, have the child, gain back her strength through the length of a day or less, then strap the child to her back and continue on through her daily routine while also tending to the child.  It was a very accepted natural process, that was celebrated some what but there was not alot of mystery or any literature surrounding the process, just a small amount of alchohol or other type of soothing drug at the most, maybe some  herbs and then the woman did her part.

These women tended to be in strong physical condition due to a life of hard labor.

For malnourished female commoners, or those that lead a sedentary life style like noble women, childbirth would likely present a greater danger and a greater struggle to recover.

This is an aspect of society where Vivaduans would frankly be in high demand. One of the dangers a woman faces, so far as I understand it, is bleeding that won't stop following the birth. I can see the nobility for example discreetly calling upon a suitable Vivaduan to save a noble lady's life fairly often.

[Angela Christine]

This is an aspect of society where Vivaduans would frankly be in high demand. One of the dangers a woman faces, so far as I understand it, is bleeding that won't stop following the birth. I can see the nobility for example discreetly calling upon a suitable Vivaduan to save a noble lady's life fairly often.

I agree.  Not just nobles, I think people of all stations are willing to go to extremes when desperate.  The original submissions section has a good story set in Old Old Tuluk, featuring a thief trying to raise enough money to buy a Healing.  http://www.armageddon.org/original/showSubmission.php?submission=54  Or the story of Rapunzel, which starts with a man breaking into a witch's garden to steal root vegetables, and then agreeing to trade his unborn child to save his own skin.  

It isn't something you'd talk about, but it is probably something a lot of people do when things go wrong.  (You wait until things go very wrong to hire a Vivaduan though, hiring one as a midwife for a normal birth is just asking for trouble).

[Cuusardo]

Selective breeding to prevent mutation isn't reliable on Zalanthas.

It seems to work well enough that merchant Houses won't give their name to a child born to a blood member and a non blood member.  Bastard nobles in the south aren't technically considered part of the family, and they are unheard of in the north.

Another force is at work that mutates the unborn.

What force you are talking about?

I'm pretty sure that there is no concept of genetics in zalanthas

They know enough about genetics to know that physical traits of the parents are passed on to children, and that if a human and an elf breed, their child is going to have characteristics of both races.  Tribal women will often find the strongest, smartest man they can so that they can produce strong, smart children for their tribes rather than finding some puny weakling to father puny, weak children.  (Survival of the fittest.)  When it comes to the upper class of society, they KNOW their blood is better than the blood of common people, so they will only breed with others in their class.  (Bastards in Allanak are an exception, but they aren't considered family anyway.  Social standing is another story entirely.)

[Delirium]

It seems to work well enough that merchant Houses won't give their name to a child born to a blood member and a non blood member.

Just to clarify:

If the mother's a merchant House member, the kid's a merchant House member.

[Cuusardo]

Just to clarify:

If the mother's a merchant House member, the kid's a merchant House member.

So if only the mother is, the child is, but if only the father is, the child isn't?  That seems rather sexist.

[Delirium]

Just as sexist as a few other conditions surrounding marriages.

As 'equal' as the game is, contracted marriages are the area where things change a bit by necessity.  A child to a merchant House mom can be assured of having that House's blood from at least one parent, but the child of a woman a merchant House dad knocks up could very well be the spawn of that 'rinthi she was secretly sexing up on the side.

[spawnloser]

There are societies in the real world that were matriarchal because of the fact that you could not guarantee who the father was...but you could guarantee who the mother was.  Everything was inherited from mothers...position, name, stuff.  It's not sexist, but realist.

[Adhira]

Delirium wrote:

Just to clarify:

If the mother's a merchant House member, the kid's a merchant House member.

Not strictly true. These type of things can work on a case by case basis.