The Forming of Raider Groups: Why, How, and What Now?

[Forty Winks]

While thinking of roles that havn't been seen (for me) in a while, I was wondering why there has been a general lack of raider groups, whether they were really a role that would benefit the game, and if not, or otherwise havn't been in the past, how things could be different. I realize there are many threads on this topic already, but the majority of them were either complaints on this topic, or of how to roleplay a raider and react to them. My concern for this thread isn't the roleplay aspect, but the actual behind-the-scenes stuff that a raider role might run into, and the things that a raider group would require before even the raiding part comes into play. By starting this thread, I would hope that some people would get the interest and motivation to form such a group now or in the future, and actual enjoy both the process, and benefit the game world.

First off, my own opinions on the questions I asked myself.

Why form a raider group?
While there are already coded clans out there, such as the Soh Lanah Kah, that act as the raider groups for the game, they are limited by both their race and language, as well as gearing toward more of the tribal culture and limited to their tribal taboos. For the generic raider groups that are bound to exist in the Known World, not only can any PC be able to join, under the right circumstances, but also any good leader can form one. Their 'stomping grounds' aren't limited to one area, and the roleplaying aspect is from a much different perspective than a tribal view. Also, their reign of influence can extend to a much more larger, and at a more grand scale than a desert-elf tribe, given the time and opportunity.

How to begin making such a group/role?
Most groups such as this run by players isn't made from thin air, and requires a very important element in their members to make it both a success as well as a benefit to the game. From the start, having a character that has a believable reason to live the life of a raider, and the circumstances to lead up to making that pivotal decision to live the high(low) life, are needed. Otherwise, the roleplaying won't be enjoyable and realistic. There are two general ways that such a group will form. ONE: Either it begins with a single individual who, through living the life of a raider, comes across others of similar mind, and bands together or TWO: A leader of a clan comes through hard times and rebels, taking along those members of his unit who are loyal to him. Which 'path' you take, whether through one of these methods, or another one, is mainly up to the circumstances surrounding your character.

What Now?
Now that you've rebeled, or have a proper group of raiders, what do you do now, to make the experience worth it all? Well, you'll either be a target by one or both of the city-states and outposts, or will soon be. An important aspect to keep a raider group alive is to have connections, whether with the many shady organizations, with a corrupted official or House member/merchant, or with desert various tribes. Also, to keep in mind once you begin raiding other players, is to determine what it is you're raiding for (wealth, survival, revenge?), your main targets (the wealthy, Houses...even magickers?), and how (ambush, active raiding, schemes and plots?).

In the end, the question to ask yourself is, are you interested in such a role and lifestyle, can you, or someone you know lead such a group, and do you have the patience and will to get through both the rough and low times? What's important to keep in mind, if you decide to make this an OOC goal, is to remember to stay in character throughout all the planning, before and when you become a raider, and to recognize that there'll be realistic reactions against your decisions. If you raid too much, or "appear" to pose a large threat to officials, it's likely your plans will fail. Living to outsmart, out-think, out-act, out-hide, out-....(I think you get the idea), your opponents, will be the best way to keep alive.

As for discussion, what are other suggestions, and ideas, on living the life of a raider? Have any helpful hints, or experience that can relate? It is at all even -possible-, IYO, to make a successful raiding group?

[Beux]

Mmmm, I love the idea of raider groups. Well...any sort of independant groups. I think mostly I just love the idea of a band of travellers who roam throughout Zalanthas independantly for any reason. So joining a raider group definately sounds interesting to me. This is exactly the kind of thing I'd love to get involved in once I get over my newbish fear of living the city-states.

[Barzalene]

Raiders are really hard. The problem is either you need to make a pc and have him get good at fighting, develop life skills then have him turn turn raider, and this is probably the best way to do it, or you have to make a pc who wants to be a raider from inception, and somehow keep her alive until she has the combat and life skills she needs to survive as a raider.

You have to find others. Someone has to step up as a leader of some sort or you have to get a working democracy going. And really unless you form your group though ooc means, which you're not supposed to do, you need to have a certain amount of a trusting nature. Because people come and go so quickly on arm that when you see a personality you can work with, you need to grab them before they're gone. Zalanthans aren't that trusting, so you have to choose to suspend disbelief.

Then you have to actually go out raid and live.

There is nothing in Zalanthas I'd more like to see than a working group of raiders (especially with a low twinkage high fun factor for both the predetors and the victims [who hopefully sometimes survive]) but I think it is the hardest thing to pull off.

[Dresan]

The process of going from nice honourable guy to raider is hard (assuming you oocly want to be a raider),  but a challenge and quite an interesting experience unto itself...its very enjoyable.

For those really wanting to be in or form independant groups of raiders or travelers or whatever i would suggest giving the PC the background and mentality right from the start.

Maybe his/her family were all raiders...thats what they learned to do...the group all died or all got caught or have moved on but your PC still hopes to someday form a successful raiding group of its own and be just like X of his/her past.

Being in or forming a small group of three or more and doing your own thing is...wow... probably one of the funnest things you can actually do in this game. However if only to protect your group from ooc whines and complaints i'd still make sure i'd have IMM support and blessing.

[Vessol]

I think it would be fun to see a group of raiders overtake a House wagon or caravan, slaughter everyone besides one lowly guard and let him run back to a city-state/outpost with nothing but his pants and a skin of water. Then see rumours about it and soldiers forming up to hunt the group down, it would be fun for both sides. Mayby have the raiders take high class hostages, such as nobles too! That would be uber fun.

[Synthesis]

Independent, mundane groups of raiding PCs will never exist again, unless the staff deliberately sets the Blackmoon or some other raiding clan up again.  Why, you ask?

1) Raiding isn't lucrative.  9 times out of 10, the only raiding targets out there are newbie hunters (who don't have anything worth taking), experienced hunters (who will probably get away, probably have the majority of their wealth in the bank, and probably have friends who will help hunt you down), d-elf tribals (who probably don't have anything worth taking, and probably have friends who will help hunt you down), and rogue magickers (who may or may not be able to blast your entire crew into next week).

2) Ratting your fellow raiders out -is- lucrative.  Since nobles, templars, and influential House merchants have monthly stipends that will exceed your entire group's yearly haul, they can afford to buy out your group.

3) On the off chance that your raiding group becomes successful, it will immediately attract the attention of: 1) Powerful magickers and psionicists; 2) Templars in both city-states; and 3) Merchants the world over.  Few -experienced- players can survive this trifecta, and newbies don't have a snowball's chance in hell.

4) Since you'll have no truly safe haven and your entire crew can't be logged in at once, it's relatively easy for someone opposed to your group to kill off your members one by one.

5) Replacements for your original elite crew will primarily be newbie recruits.  Even if these newbie characters are played by experienced players, the likelihood of them surviving to the point where they are equal in skill to their predecessor is slim.  Thus, over time, the combat-effectiveness of your crew degrades substantially.

6) Raiding is -boring-.  You'll spend most of your time sparring and hunting.  (Your chances of actually getting some raiding action are marginally increased if you have a spy within the city, but see #2 for the pitfalls associated with this.)  When you -do- manage to find a raiding target, the target will probably run away immediately, forcing you to chase him down and either he'll get away, or you'll have to spamkill him with no emotes or anything to make the experience memorable.

7) The playerbase is small.  Eventually, you will have raided every newbie out there, and every experienced player will have heard of you.  They will take steps not to be raided by you with future characters, and you will steadily exhaust your supply of victims.

[veryalien]

A raiding group is fine. Why not make a desert elf or find a nomad group that does this. Invite more free players to come in and performing raiding from there as well as other things?

Seems like a more sensible approach since independants are far easier to hunt down.

[Barzalene]

Sadly, I agree completely with Synthesis. I say sadly, because no role appeals to me like the desert raider. And I've tried, and tried, and tried. In four years I haven't been able to pull it off. I'd love to be proved wrong. And I hope someone has more success with it than  I've had. It's a hard row to hoe.

[spawnloser]

I've had a few characters that raided, and then others' OOC knowledge basically convicted the character.  It is hard to do a raider, because you HAVE to be able to live without entering a city and interacting with people...well, except the interaction when actually raiding them.  If you are ever social AFTER raiding, you're done.

[Anonymous]

Starting a raiding group is easy enough, sustaining it is the problem.  I think people too often confuse raiding and wanton murder both on the part of the raiders and those who are worried about becoming victims.

If a raiding organization is smart and doesn't leave a trail of bodies they'll be less likely to draw the sort of vigilante mob that they would otherwise.  Still you'll have to deal with the legions of city-dwelling combat PCs who have sparred till their eyes bled and are more than happy to risk life and limb to kill you for daring to charge that salt forager a salt tax.

[Dresan]

Sadly, I agree completely with Synthesis.

I've always thought it would be cool to have actual coded NPC wagons travel back and forth between redstorm<>Nak<>Luirs<>Tuluk. Different wagons would be making the trip (ex. from Luirs to Tuluk) anywhere from two to four times a RL day at Random times.

The wagons could be composed of one to three different rooms. With random amount of guards at random amounts of skill level in each room, it could range anywhere from 2-5 NPC guards. Besides the meger gear on the NPC there could be a chance of there being a chest with random stuff in it. The items or sid could be random and varied.

That said a few players in the various part and positions(kurac sergeants, militia sergeants, etc)) should be able to find out when a wagon is sheduled to leave next and how many guards it will have (in each room). Maybe there could also be some way for players to be able to sign up as guards or passengers (though if its to remain random i am not sure how).

This would give wouldbe raiders, wild magickers and badasses something to target other then newbies. Also another venue of coruption for some people in power or with info. On top of everything the wagons could belong to the Great merchant house, nobles, and maybe a few independant merchants. So if a wagon from a particular house is being hit  often and hard, the PCs belonging to the house might be forced to take action and hire PC guard or bounty hunters or find out who is leaking info, or etc etc...

The idea is rough and would need balancing but could create alot of fun RP for many people. If not at least it would make the world come alive a bit...the roads often seem very lonely.

[Dresan]

Also say house X is pissed with House Y,  house X could very well hire a group or so to pound on house Y wagons for a while to get back at them.

Like i said it could open up RP for alot of different people.

EDIT: oh and you wouldn't be able to look into wagons, they would just be big enough for people to enter and leave with their mounts...nor would the wagon ever stop (pilots door would be barricaded)...if the raiders aren't out before the wagon reaches its destination, they are screwed.

[rufus]

Sadly, I agree completely with Synthesis.

[really good idea here]

Do it!

[Fnord]

The tricky thing with raiding groups is that they can easily become disproportionately strong to their actual size. Think about it, say like five players that are all skilled warriors, rangers, and assassins banded together. Five players in the virtual scheme of Arm's population is nothing, but in practical terms they would crush most non-magickers that travel. Replace one of those rangers with a rogue Krathi...

Didn't such as issue develop back in the day with a coded raiding group? Blackmoon, or something?

I'd be interested to see this done well, so the raiding group didn't suddenly perk the interest of your classic imms-puttin-you-in-check-gith-defiler.

Edit: OP asked for suggestions on how to do this. I'd think that the group developing its own culture that took up more time than actual raiding would be key. The comradery, the tests of dominance, the members that realized this life is not for them and wanted out, the training, the planning, etc. A group that basically goes out to hunt people on the daily will meet the aforementioned gith in no time flat.

[Ava]

1) Raiding isn't lucrative.  9 times out of 10, the only raiding targets out there are newbie hunters (who don't have anything worth taking), experienced hunters (who will probably get away, probably have the majority of their wealth in the bank, and probably have friends who will help hunt you down), d-elf tribals (who probably don't have anything worth taking, and probably have friends who will help hunt you down), and rogue magickers (who may or may not be able to blast your entire crew into next week).

Doesn't Kadius drive argosies from 'nak to Luirs to Tuluk and back several times a month, laden with both finished goods and raw materials worth hundreds of thousands of 'sid?

The room echos don't lie, fella.

[LoD]

Independent, mundane groups of raiding PCs will never exist again, unless the staff deliberately sets the Blackmoon or some other raiding clan up again.  Why, you ask?

I don't know that this is completely accurate.  Never is a long time.  I'd be more inclined to state, "Successful, independant, mundane groups of PC raiders are unlikely to flourish for all the reasons Synthesis states."

The question at hand is, "How do I form a raiding group?"

Well, first you have to decide why your group raids:

Survival

There are some poor wretches in this world that have been dealt such a miserable hand of fate that they've been driven to rob and steal for their food and water.  There are also those that have decided the easiest way to obtain what they want is to steal it from others.  While raiding might not be profitable to some, it CAN be profitable if your margins are low enough.

A viable raiding concept using this model could be a group of able bodied men/women that raid in order to feed their family/tribe.  Perhaps there's a reason why their people cannot (or will not) live within one of the civilizations and depend upon the strongest of their people to bring them food, water, and clothing.

Hatred

There may be a group of people that are pleasant as punch on any given day, except when they encounter a race/afilliation that they hate.  Elves, dwarves, northerners, southerners, rinthers, anyone is fair game as long as there's an IC reason for the hatred.  Coming across these people may result in a murder or simply in humiliating them and taking them for all their worth.  It's not as common or pressing a need as hunger, but it can suffice.

These raiding groups will likely be comprised of homogeneous members with regards to race or birthplace.  A group of elf-hating humans, or northern-hating southerners, or half-elf hating desert elves.  Because their niche can be quite small, raiding wouldn't be a motivating factor as much as a byproduct of a few chance encounters unless they take pains to visit areas of the world that grow thick with the people they hate.

Wealth or Fame

Some men or women may believe that raiding is a way to make a name for yourself.  Perhaps they don't get much respect grebbing the day away in the kank stables, or scrubbing the master's front stoop.  They want respect, and if they can't earn it as a result of the place society has given them, they'll take it by force.

Others may see raiding as a way to gain wealth and influence by controlling certain regions or areas, and selling "safety rights" to organizations that feel the payment is less of a hassle than the manpower required to track them down.  Some organizations may even come to view the raiders as a pawn in their game, using their strength to thwart opponents or ensure the success of their endeavors.

How do I form a group?

Were I to form a group in today's game, I would quickly decide two things:

:arrow: Where I will raid.
:arrow: Where I will sleep.

You need to have a place that you can call home.  Preferably this place will be sympathetic (or at least neutral) to the group/area you intend to raid.  For example, you could be a southern based group that decides to make monthly raids on the northlands.  Or Red Storm based raiders that indescriminately strike tribals and independant travellers.  It's possible to house, train, and maintain a raiding group if you have a place to call home and people that won't care about your activities.  It may even result in some extra money to be made from time to time.

Recruit independant hunters, mercenaries, travellers, or thugs that have nothing better to do and are looking for a little adventure.   Some people relish the thrill more than the loot, while others will be looking mainly to the bulge of the paysack.  Whatever their motivation, there will always be a fair amount of players upon which to draw if you select a large enough market.

Raiders don't have to be hated by everyone.  They don't have to be rogue bandits that live off the land scrapping for food and water.  They don't have to be on the run from every Known Civilization.  All they have to do is make life uncomfortable for a few people.  The rest is up to you.

-LoD

[Intrepid]

There are technically raiding groups in play as we speak, some of whom have imm support:

The Soh Lanah Kah, a tribe of desert elves living on the Tablelands, revere and venerate the anakore. Their abilities in using stealth and cunning make them successful raiders and thieves, while their cleverness at using the wastes and canyons to their advantage makes them able warriors and hunters.

(The Benjari) Those native to the Tablelands might have had fleeting contact with these rugged and reclusive human nomads, who have engaged in raids in the past but seem to have withdrawn into themselves of late.

A nomadic tribe of elves, the Dune Stalkers are most known and feared for their unusual raiding habits, which oftentimes follow no apparent logic.

A small elven tribe located in the eastern Salt Flats, the Silt Winds primarily deal in weapons and herbs. They commonly stop in Allanak to trade their wares. They are said to sometimes prey on anyone travelling too far east.  (technically raiding)

The above excerpts are quoted from the Clan blubs on the website.  Zalanthas is full of opportunistic assholes, so if you're having trouble surviving in a brand new group of raiders, try an established group instead.

[Forty Winks]

Why form a raider group?
While there are already coded clans out there, such as the Soh Lanah Kah, that act as the raider groups for the game, they are limited by both their race and language, as well as gearing toward more of the tribal culture and limited to their tribal taboos. For the generic raider groups that are bound to exist in the Known World, not only can any PC be able to join, under the right circumstances, but also any good leader can form one. Their 'stomping grounds' aren't limited to one area, and the roleplaying aspect is from a much different perspective than a tribal view. Also, their reign of influence can extend to a much more larger, and at a more grand scale than a desert-elf tribe, given the time and opportunity.

That's at least my opinion. I know of a few people that would enjoy the tribal aspect of raiding more, but that's more on perspective of each individual.

[RunningMountain]

Synthesis has the right of it.

[Testing]

Without going into too much detail on certain things that are happening, there are ways around every problem Synthesis mentioned, even boredom and the reduction of combat effectiveness.  Sometimes you just need to employ a bit of a creative twist.

But I agree in principle that it is very, very difficult to do, and you need more than just a general gameplan, you need a finite strategy.

[Sir Diealot]

Wouldn't it be cool if we had that coded wagon idea..  And if X groups' wagons got hit a lot, their profits went down/etc.?  That way you could, say, have a Raider who hate Kurac because they made his brother a spice-fiend, or something like that, and have him target Kurac enough that Kurac starts to lose IC profits, hitting PCs, who then move to take a stand, hiring bodyguards/etc.

Hell, you could even set up ambushes, by hiding a group of ub4r PCs inside said codedly NPC driven wagon, allowing for all sorts of interesting RP, and everything of that nature.

It would be easier on raiders, because the PC population normally sits in taverns, chilling, or sparring in their secret fort, or spamcasting spells in order to make said rogue Krathi uber enough to destroy all!

Anyway... I really like the idea, and I think it could be improved by adding in a <profit --> wagons that make> it connection.  It'd give nobles/etc. more to plan on.. 'Do I allocate House funds to hire an extra guard on each caravan that goes north, or do I allocate the funds to hire a gemmer to wipe out that group, send a message to all other groups, and not have to deal with it again.'    In a word.. Badass.