Concerning Incest

[Melody]

What are the general opinions of various cultures concerning the topic? How do people react to brotherly and sisterly affection that went too deep? Or mother - son ones? Do they take the ancient Rome approach, or the modern one? Is it something regarded in disgust or indifference?

Thanks for sharing!

[Forty Winks]

If it is tribal you are refering to, there should be documents regarding, or hinting at, such issues. As for the general populace, I would think incest would still be frowned upon, but not as much as what RL would take it.

[Melody]

Hullo, being recent to the game still, I don't really understand the reasons behind various things. Could you elaborate for me please? I remember reading on some helpfiles that incest is common with the nobles. If that's the case, would they not get upset with the general populace for looking down on them?

[Cegar]

Eh, I wouldn't think people would make a big fuss at all.

[Forty Winks]

If nobles were doing it, the commoners wouldn't think twice about it, I would think.

In any case, whether or whether not incest is alright IG, if things lead up to such a situation, why bother what others would think? Only makes things more interesting.  :twisted:

[RunningMountain]

I would like to think that the inbreeding effects would be seen on zalanthas just as on earth. Like death, retardation, weakness (wouldn't last long) and all that stuff. So it's probably not common. But I think it would be sweet to have that as a plot.

Reminds me of the Lannister incest in GM's song.

[amish overlord]

Aren't nobles in each city all cousins or similarly related? So don't thin incest at some level of society isn't bad, they have good blood, as long as not brother and sister and such, but cousins i can see happening at the noble level. Lower than noble level ya a bad thing.

Amish Overlord  

[Melody]

Aren't nobles in each city all cousins or similarly related? So don't thin incest at some level of society isn't bad, they have good blood, as long as not brother and sister and such, but cousins i can see happening at the noble level. Lower than noble level ya a bad thing.

What is it bad if you are lower than noble level? What about half brother or sisters or such? What if it is the offspring of your partner's other partner? I'm curious about it for future background potentials and such, since you can't really gain brothers or sisters in game easily. ^_^

[Barzalene]

There's a huge difference between your brother and your cousin. And your cousin and your second cousin. And a world of difference between your brother and your second cousin.

[Kennath]

It take more than one generation of close inbreeding to have any effects. Generally cousin-on-cousin like is done with nobles should have little or no effect.

[ale six]

Incest among commoners might be frowned upon or avoided. Commoners want to survive and make healthy babies, and would probably know that children born of the same blood sometimes end up weaker than others. Still, it's probably not as big a deal in Zalanthas as it is in the real world. No one is going to stop you or fine you for sleeping with your mother/father/brother/sister.

Among the nobles, incest is probably fairly common. Brother/sister pairings might still raise a few brows, but anything less closely related than that wouldn't. There are probably at least a few dozen nobles of each generation in each House, so there's plenty of room for them to pair up without getting -too- close on the family tree. Nobles are usually far more pampered, too, so they can deal with frailty and sickness from inbreeding better. Still, they're as affected by incestual relationships as anybody else is. I've seen nobles played as frail, weak, etc, and it might be for this reason.

The general populace probably wouldn't care if nobles were having incestual relationships or not, and most would probably be smart enough not to bring it up even if they did look down on it. People of certain backgrounds might make derisive comments about 'inbred nobles' and things, but most folks would just ignore it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Though if you want to use it in your background, then don't forget that even if it's frowned upon doesn't mean that it can't happen.

[Angela Christine]

It isn't illegal, and that's the important thing.

[Guido]

Place is already full of mutants, a dash of incest won't stir up the gene pool too badly. As for social implications, it's likely frowned upon with direct relatives (sibling/parent/child), but anything else (cousin, aunt, nephew) is open game.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

It isn't illegal, and that's the important thing.

Not necessarily. People in such relationships might be heavily shunned, or even subjected to hostile acts. Society has its ways of punishing behaviour that strays from what's accepted as the social norm.

[Angela Christine]

Love is blind, but the neighbours aren't.  Yeah.


Unless you happen to be a Pharaoh or Hawaiian Royalty you probably live in a culture where brother-sister incest is taboo.  Nearly all known human cultures taboo having sexual relations with your siblings, your parents or your children.  Humans in Zalanthas probably aren't so alien that they wouldn't have this very common taboo.  It's unlikely that even elves or dwarves are that alien.  

I was going to suggest googling "incest taboo" but it appears that brings up a lot of porn, so here's a couple non-porn links.  They are just text, but if you are at work you may want to consider what people will think if they see a page with the word "incest" at the top:

http://virgil.azwestern.edu/~dag/lol/Incest.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest_taboo


I'd say that incest with immediate family is going to be almost universally taboo, and the neighbours (ie. society at large) will not like it.  But it's not illegal, so you probably won't get disappeared, exiled or thrown in the arena for it.  Well, unless a Templar decides to make it illegal just for you, because a Templar can make anything at all illegal.   :wink:

[Dre]

I thought about this and while i think 'common' is probably too strong a word, the phrase...'its happens, nobody gives a shi't...is a better description i think.

In Zalanthas there could be a big difference between having had sex with a sibling and ended up having and raising children with them.

However i would still think that while the general population really doesn't give a shit what someone else does in their bedroom, most of them would have heard stories or rumours of how kanking your sister/brother/mother/father may end up in retarded/mutant/weak/magickal babies.

[Djarjak]

I wish Eris were here...

Incest isn't a taboo just because people look at their brothers and sisters and say "icky poo!"

It's typically taboo because there are notable genetic consequences. Specifically, various forms of retardation, deformity and the like.

Apparently, the odds of this are less the more distant the relation, but genetic insanity, personality problems, organ disorders, and shortened lifespans (less obviously visible issues) still occur.

So, while it might be true to suggest that each member of the nobility is related to one another somewhere (as alliances are formed by marriages between families or power is preserved by marriages within larger families) I don't think it would be fair to assume that this means everyone loves humping their sister, or that no one cares if you hump your sister... There would be fairly severe consequences of something like that.

In my mind, unless it adds something significant to the game, I wouldn't really want to play it.

[Nao]

Those effects only happen if the incest spans through generations - happened in very small, enclosed villages or the european nobiluity, for example.

The child isn't that much more likely to suffer from serious health problems if the parents are brother and sister and there was no incest in the family line before, much less if they're cousins.

You're even allowed to marry your cousin over here

[spawnloser]

I've played a character that was a product of incest...and his mother was the product of incest too.  Great thing is, Vendyra's the one that told me this about my character after I'd started playing him.  It was funny.

[slipshod]

The incest taboo exists in every known human culture on earth.  Some cultures define the parameters of it differently, but parent/children and sibling incest is universally taboo.  Some anthropologists make a compelling argument for it being something genetic... saying that humans are naturally disinclined to mate with family.  The argument exists, though, because there is no definite answer and if it is genetic, that genetic encoding is endlessly complex (and obviously faulty since incest still occurs).  

In the case of European royalty (and Zalanthan nobility), the limits on which people are suitable mates for a Lord or Lady leads to a very small gene pool being tapped into repeatedly, and incest is going to occur - but this is a social decision to keep bloodlines pure, and even then, the common people were (and are on Zalanthas, I postulate) indisposed to it.  

As Djarjak mentioned, one of the reasons it is unfavorable is because of the increased risk of some defect.  What most people don't realize is that you have an equal chance of reinforcing a positive trait or characteristic.  This is why incest breeding is a common tool for horse and dog breeders.  You have a good chance of reinforcing the positive traits, and with these animals, you can simply destroy the culls (the ones with the negative traits reinforced).  With humans, it's a little less simple to destroy the defected children, although many of the defects themselves are fatal and the offspring won't live long anyway.  

The short answer is - the incest taboo exists to some extent universally in human cultures, and so it would exist on Zalanthas.  

The question that modern anthrolopogists still cannot answer absolutely is why.  Even if it IS genetic, it is obviously also influenced by society and culture, otherwise we wouldn't have some cultures where mating between first cousins is perfectly acceptable and others where you need to be removed several more times from a "relative" before it's okay.  In the modern world, incest is actually more of a legal term than it is a biological one for humans.  Is the taboo inherited biologically?  Is it cultural?  Is it a combination?  We still cannot say for certain.

[Hymwen]

I once read somewhere that all humans have a unique scent, and that siblings and parents/children are genetically programmed so that the scent of a close family member, even though you might not notice it, will be sexually unappealing. I think a lot of animals have the same as well. Basically nature's way of preventing extinction due to weakness from inbreeding.

[Melody]

I've read about scents from somewhere too. But oddly enough, I've also see a documentation on how close family members, especially if parted from an early age, can form instant and deep attachment, or true love, even.

On the other hand, incest aren't always frowned upon. In some ages and cultures, it's actually encouraged to keep the bloodline pure. I'm not sure which age and culture Arm lean close to. But all the comments are very helpful, thanks. ^_^

[flaran]

The argument exists, though, because there is no definite answer and if it is genetic, that genetic encoding is endlessly complex (and obviously faulty since incest still occurs).  

Actually, you're at fault here.  There is at least one definite reason that inbreeding leads to disease.  Recessive traits that would normally be brought to life by one-in-a-million chances will come up because it is passed down to all of the family recessively and then stay recessive as each member picked a different partner now will be had by BOTH parents, thus making the child much more likely to have this said rare/recessive disease.

[slipshod]

I think you misunderstood.  What I'm saying is that if incest is taboo because of something gentic and biological, then that mechanism isn't perfect because people still have incestuous relationships.  If it was a perfect biological mechanism, it wouldn't occur at all.

And as for recessive traits - they are 50% likely to be positive.  the chances of reinforcing and passing on a disease or negative trait are just as high as the chances of passing on a positive mutation or trait.

[ale six]

On the other hand, incest aren't always frowned upon. In some ages and cultures, it's actually encouraged to keep the bloodline pure. I'm not sure which age and culture Arm lean close to. But all the comments are very helpful, thanks. ^_^

Nobility, especially ones with a more "exclusive" pedigree (Upper Houses like Borsail especially, also Valika and Oash in Allanak, Winrothol and maybe others in Tuluk) probably would buy into the "keep the bloodline pure" thing, and probably wouldn't mind incest if they didn't encourage it. Lower Houses might want to marry family members up the social ladder... House Jal can't claim any better breeding if Jals keep marrying Jals. Also remember that in Tuluk, nobles would NEVER pollute their bloodline by sleeping with commoners.

[jcarter]

Those effects only happen if the incest spans through generations - happened in very small, enclosed villages or the european nobiluity, for example.

The child isn't that much more likely to suffer from serious health problems if the parents are brother and sister and there was no incest in the family line before, much less if they're cousins.

You're even allowed to marry your cousin over here

Yes, there are. It's been a few years since I've taken genetics, but say your family carries the gobbles (completely made up) gene. It's recessive and rare, where only one in a million familes has it. Chances are, your family may have never had anyone afflicted with gobbles, because it's so rare to find someone else with the gene and gobbles needs another recessive to afflict someone. Chances are good that your sibling also had the gobbling gene passed down to them, which means mating with your immediate family raises the risk to having two recessives of gobbles come together and afflicting the child.

Again, it's been a while since I've taken genetics, so my terminology isn't quite up to par and I may be off in one or two things, but that's about the sum of it.

[Nao]

I didn't say they weren't more likely to have some genetic defect, but the likelyness of that happening if there's never been incest in the family before are quite small - I learned that in school, too

You need several generations of breeding within a small gene pool for defects to be much more likely.

[Djarjak]

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00076.htm
http://www.homestead.com/flowstate/incest.html
http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section21/chapter286/286b.jsp

[jstorrie]

Earth humans are generally not disposed to be attracted to their immediate relations. It's a survival instinct that has evolved precisely because incest often produces dangerously faulty offspring. As such, the taboo is largely based on a subconscious or instinctual tendency, and I imagine Zalanthas would likely have it too. It may not be illegal, but many will strongly believe it's strange and somewhat disgusting.

Interestingly there's a similar case to make that predisposition to religious or supernatural belief is also a product of the curious construction of the human brain, but that's neither here nor there.

[Dalmeth]

All I say is this : aversion to incest is natural throughout nature.  It would be strange if Zalanthans didn't behave similarly to societies on Earth regarding this subject.

I doubt anyone among the general populace has any idea of the long-term consequences of incest, but it's a natural part of all cultures I know, both human and animal, so they don't need to.

[Cegar]

All I say is this : aversion to incest is natural throughout nature.  It would be strange if Zalanthans didn't behave similarly to societies on Earth regarding this subject.

Not really. In nature, incest is not common, but it occurs. There is at least one group of primates who REGULARLY engage in incest (not humans). My cats used to engage in incest (before the fuckers got fixed). Rats, mice... all animal groups do, basically.

And while yes, genetic defects are more common, the chance is still incredibly small. Even in successive relationships, though increasing, the chance is minute. It's like the chance of getting struck by lightning compared to the chance of spontaneously combusting.

That being said, Zalanthans don't know jack shit about genes. They think that birth defects are caused by magick. Would they really give a shit if someone was screwing their brother?

[Anonymous]

Alot of zalanthians have tribal cultures...even the cities states originated from tribes scattered i believe. That means that there would be a pretty good chance that they have learned like we did (even before science and genes came about) that incest would lead or eventually lead to birth defects and was not good for the society as a whole.

That said most people would turn a blind eye and not give a shit however it might still be being up there in the taboo list in most (not all) people's minds of it being no different then a human and elf being romantic in public.

[Cegar]

Lacking a scientific rationale for mutations, most attribute them to magick, whether this be a commoner blaming their two-headed baby on an angry magicker or Silt Sea dwellers (mutations do seem to be more common along its shore) simply explaining it as "the Sea marks some for its own".

Same would go for birth defects. Again, this is in the cities, where a majority of Zalanthans live. Tribes have their own beliefs, which are outlined in their documentation.

[Cegar]

Lacking a scientific rationale for mutations, most attribute them to magick, whether this be a commoner blaming their two-headed baby on an angry magicker or Silt Sea dwellers (mutations do seem to be more common along its shore) simply explaining it as "the Sea marks some for its own".

Same would go for birth defects. Again, this is in the cities, where a majority of Zalanthans live. Tribes have their own beliefs, which are outlined in their documentation.

[Angela Christine]

Genetics isn't the only explanation for incest taboos.  It is the first one that jumps into our heads because we all took science classes in high school, but most of us did not take anthropology classes.  We naturally assume that Science has the answer for everything.


Two social explanations are Role Conflict and Mutual Assistance Theory.

Role Conflict - If your grandfather is the daddy of your baby then your son is also your uncle.  That can be difficult to manage, especially in cultures with strict role guidelines.

Mutual Assistance -  Marrying exclusively within your own group is like putting all your eggs in one basket.  Inter-marrying with other groups gives you allies and something of a safety net.




http://virgil.azwestern.edu/~dag/lol/Incest.html

A LINE ON LIFE
9/14/83, Revised 6/20/01
Incest Taboo
David A. Gershaw, Ph.D.
Incest — sexual relations with one's parents, children or siblings (brothers or sisters) — is forbidden in all known cultures. However, once you get outside the immediate family to include cousins, nieces and so on, the definition varies from culture to culture. The rare historical exceptions include sibling pairings of Egyptian and Hawaiian royalty to preserve the royal family line. Why is the incest taboo in the immediate family essentially universal?

One of several possible theories involves the combining of recessive genes. For recessive genes to cause a trait, the child must receive two recessive genes, one from each parent. Suppose there is a recessive gene for a negative trait in a family. It is unlikely to pair up with another recessive gene for the same trait, if family members mate with members of the general population. However, if incestual relations occur, the chances of the child having the negative trait jump to about 25%. This may have been a contributing factor to the high incidence of hemophilia — a disorder in which the blood loses its ability to clot — among European royalty, when cousins married each other.

Another theory about the universality of the incest taboo deals with role conflict. (A role is the expected behavior in a social position.) When you simultaneously hold two positions that require contradictory social behaviors, this leads to role conflict. This can be illustrated with the popular country song, "I'm My Own Grandpaw." (If you haven't heard it, I guess it isn't that popular.) The song tells of a widower and his son, who meet a widow and her daughter. They fall in love. However, the widower marries the daughter, while the widow marries the son. The resulting relationship is diagrammed below.



Examine the diagram carefully. Now, since the widower married the daughter of the son and the widow, the widower is now the son-in-law of the son. Remember that the children of you son-in-law (the widower) and your daughter are your grandchildren. However, the son is the child of the widower and the daughter! Therefore, the son is his own "grandpaw."

In this situation, is the son expected to behave toward the widower as his father or his son-in-law? Is the son supposed to treat the widow as his wife or his grandmother? Is the son expected to act toward the daughter as his daughter or his stepmother? All the other members in this situation will suffer similar role conflicts.

Now let's look at role conflict in an incestual relationship. Suppose a father has an incestual relationship with his daughter, which results in a child. Is the child to be treated by the father as his child or his grandchild? (The child of your daughter is your grandchild.) Should the daughter react toward her child as her child or her sibling? Since role conflict is typical of any incestual relationship, this is why it is seen as a reason for the universal incest taboo.

The last theory to be covered is the mutual assistance theory. To illustrate, we will use an example from prehistoric times. Groups traveled across the countryside foraging for food. Suppose a 10-member family crossed into the territory of a 30-member clan. This would probably result in a conflict, with the larger group winning.

However, in case the 30-member clan came into conflict with a larger group, it would be better if they could rely on the assistance of the smaller family. How could they accomplish this? If a member from each group mated, the offspring would be in common for both groups. They are very likely to combine their resources to protect the children.

If one of the spouses died, this might lead to the breakup of the mutual assistance relationship. To avoid this, the levirate and sororate systems were developed. If a husband is killed, his widow becomes the wife of one of the brothers under the levirate system. Similarly, if a wife dies, the widower will become the husband of one of her sisters under the sororate system. In this way, the relationship between the two groups will be maintained. In addition, the more groups that any group can intermarry with, the more that group can insure its physical survival.

But what if one of the sisters — in the sororate system — was in love with her brother and refused to marry the widower? This would threaten the very survival of the group! This might explain why many people feel very threatened by even the hint of a possible incestual act.

Each culture or subculture probably has its own explanation for its incest taboo. However, the theories discussed here seem to apply to some extent to all cultures.

If you have to go with a simple genetic explanation, avoiding dangerous recessive genes isn't your only option.  

Inbreeding doesn't always lead to weaker offspring,  but over the long term it means that all of your descendants will have the same strengths and the same weaknesses.  Encouraging genetic diversity enhances your chances of having some of your descendants survive bad things.

 Like when there was that big potato famine in Ireland, all of the potato plants in the entire country were descended from three potato plants brought over from the Americas.  So when a disease came that one of them was vulnerable too, all of them were equally vulnerable and nearly all the potatoes died.  In more recent times the same thing occasionally befalls crops when entire fields, sometimes entire regions, are all planted with the a variety where every plant is nearly identical genetically.   Usually these were bred or engineered to be superior in some way (resistant to a certain disease or insect, drought tolerant, self-seeding, etc.) but if any disease that can kill one of them will kill all of them.  In more genetically diverse seed stock the disease might only kill 1/2, cause another 1/4 to be stunted and less productive, but leave 1/4 nearly unaffected.  Since the half that died won't be used as seed stock for next year, your crops will be less vulnerable to that disease in the future (but may be more vulnerable to something else).  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiversity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_revolution

Loss of biodiversity – The spread of Green Revolution hybrids and the associated techniques have resulted in the cultivation of many fewer varieties of crops. Some crops have seen upwards of a 90% reduction in crop varieties. Dependence on one or a few cultivars of a crop means a greater exposure to famine due to a new crop pest (see Irish Potato Famine), external dependence of the population for other foodstuffs, and an impaired ability to improve crops in the future through breeding

People don't have to think about recessive genes, genetic diversity, role confusion, or mutual assistance to develop incest taboos, and they don't have to believe that those explanations have anything to do with their particular taboo.  If the groups that have an incest taboo are more likely to survive and thrive over many generations than the people who do not, then that behavior will be naturally reinforced.  Incest is never completely wiped out because it isn't immediately fatal, you can have several generations of successful incestuous breeding without seeing any ill effects.  But long-term, multigenerational exclusive inbreeding has a variety of ill effects, and eventually those catch up with you.  So the cultures that survive are likely to think that inbreeding is gross.

[Xygax]

I've moderated some posts that contributed nothing to the thread.  Whether the subject interests you are not, the content of the thread has (until recently) been thought-provoking, at the least.  If you don't like it, move along, don't flame it.

-- X

[bloodfromstone]

I prefer Armageddon culture to keep some of our real world taboos. In fact, the more the better. Not because I'm made uncomfortable by any of it or anything, but if nothing is taboo, then where is the plot and intrigue? If someone falls in love with their sister. and it is taboo, then they have to hide it. They have to worry about what she will say. They have to lie, be the victim of self-hatred, etc. It becomes interesting.

On the other hand, if sleeping with your half-kank, half-elf magicker sister isn't taboo, then all it is is OOCly gross and ICly boring. Nothing comes of it but some emotes about moisture and throbbing. I understand Zalanthas is harsh and gritty and all that, but the more things no one lifts an eyebrow out, the less intrigue and interesting interaction we get.

Take, for example, the having of multiple partners. Some people play this up to an extreme. There is no jealousy or possessiveness or anything of that nature, in the eyes of some of our players. Now, I'm not saying that my style of play or take on the setting is any more legitimate that anyone else's, but I do think that the lack of stigma that I am describing leads to staleness. Multiple partners without consquences, no incest or gender taboos, and all of that leads to zero plotlines. All we get out of it is free mudsex for everyone without any costs. Personally, that's not why I play the game. I'd rather see broken hearts and yelling matches, awkward self-discovery leading to lies or loss of friendships, people sneaking about behind each other's backs and facing the consquences when found out. I think it's a lot more interesting than saying "Hey, wanna fuck, sis?" "Okay!" in front of your other 2 lovers and boss.