Armageddon military forces

[Thoughtful General]

Here is my own ranking (in terms of strategic and tactical skill as opposed to overall forces or absolute strength) for the Houses and mercenary groups in the known world.

Sun Legions
Allanaki Militia
House Tor
House Kurac
Tan Muark
Ptar Ken
Blackwing
Sundry Gith Tribes
Red Storm (look at all them muls)
Byn
House Borsail
House Winrothol
House Tenneshi
House Oash
House Nenyuk
Huose Salarr
House Kadius
House Fale

Well, that's the PC Houses and a couple ones that used to be PC based groups or races.

Why do I place th Byn above most of the noble houses?  Because most of the noble houses recruit Byn types for their experience.  They don't have standing generals who make a life time study of tactics and war - instead they are schooled in defending and guarding.  They do have lifelong commanders though who maintain the warbands for ready action as mercenary units.  If rl is any parallel - mercenaries are commanded outside their units by leaders from whomever hired them in times of war.  Therefore, they never truly master the art of war - no need.  Instead they've mastered the art of fighting.  

Borsail does some limited raiding - but mostly for capturing slaves.  Therefore the targets are mostly lacking in defense and are ripped to shreds.

Basically, at the top of the list are the organizations that make a study of war.  Then come the tribes and groups that make a study of fighting.  Then comes raiding, followed by guarding, followed by hunting, and ending with looking pretty.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Ok, it's me again. The Byn fanatic. I'm a bit confused, I must admit... It seems like, apparently, even the tiny noble houses are housing an army unimaginable destruction. This raises one little question... If each noble house has their own militia-sized group of expertly-trained guards... Then how can the Byn even exist?

Think about it. Every time Lord Fancy Pants has to go somewhere, he hires out the Byn. Sure, the OOC reason is to involve more players. But their must be an IC reason, otherwise the Byn would have no use and would go out of business. Even that aba, those sparring weapons, and the bowls filled with free stew cost money. And considering the decent size of the Byn, I'd imagine the costs add up. And yet, the Byn not only breaks even, but has actually made hordes of 'sid. How is this, you ask? The only logical explanation I can think of is that these big and tough noble houses seem to be hiring out the Byn a good amount.

Otherwise, why doesn't Lord Fancy Pants just send out his own little gentically-modified, brainwashed, uber-powerful army to escort him? Well... Maybe because he doesn't have one. Or maybe because a lifetime of sitting around the estate and making empty threats to passing 'rinthers has made his boys soft. Or maybe Lord Fancy Pants likes to keep both an estate in the Northlands and the Southlands (One for the Arc of Acension, one for the Arc of Decension, and of course his extra-large silt skimmer he uses during Low Arc). So maybe his resources are spread too thin.

But no matter who figure it, ICly, most of the noble houses need the Byn in some way. Sure, you could argue that nobles like the Byn because if they die, it's no skin off their nose. But hey, think about it... Will they really care if hand-full of recruited guards dies, as well? Just tossing out a random idea for the discussion.

[creeper386]

Well, I'm going to have to agree that most likely on any large scale battle, the Byn is going to loose, and in smaller scales it'd probably be difficult. Byn spend most their time fighting, yes. But fighting big animals, fighting gith or what not is going to be different then fighting trained military forces.

Also, Byn stays in business because they do the dirty stuff. They'll willing to go acrossed the known world for the right amount of 'sid. Now, why doesn't a noble send out his own army to do this? Because his army stays protecting his grounds. Also, a noble IS going to be more willing to throw away Bynners he bought then his own recruits. Recruits show prospect for the House, most of them are also are going to be quite loyal.

Now, hiring Byn for traveling. A noble won't just take all his house guards and go adventuring. Look in real life. Important people have their small group of personal guards 2-10 ussually, and then they hire out for the rest. Why? Mostly because their guards and such aren't going to be knowing the terrain they are traveling through, may not have as much experience fighting big bugs, or a gith raid.

Now, not every house has a massive army, but for the most part, I bet all the noble houses, as well as the merchant houses, they well have an army. Just because you can run a large orginization without some sort of group of guards and offensive forces. It's just a common fact.

Reasons why the Byn is less likely to win most fights against although groups. Most of them except the Byn are given uniforms consisting of good armour, while most the Byn have various pieces or cheap armour. The other groups are also probably going be alot better physically and mentally, not only are those groups able to pick and choose who they want, they tend to keep them fed and everything else, meaning good chance they are going to be in better shape, more intelligent and so on. Also the training, the Byn does have people good in fights, but the other groups well probably have more people specialized in different categories, giving better strategy and such. Probably also have some sort of long range people that are being supported by others, everythings going to work together ALOT better.

Now, saying the Byn has more experience... The militia does work all around the city, probably going further out, as well as dealing with all the stuff inside the city, which could include taking care of Bynners as well. The houses and other groups have been about along time, they probably have alot more veterans that only job is to advise. They probably take place in personal wars here and there, most likely each group has a good amount of hunters to keep everyone fed, even if they don't work completely for the house they could easiely be called upon. Going out and staking new territory for this group or that would happen alot. And generally just guarding things and all the other experience everyone else gets.

But when it comes down to it, I'd say the most important matters is living conditions, including where they are sleeping, food and places they hang around and such, equipment, and certainly training, which I highly doubt any of the groups with have lazy men, or flabby men or what not. Either they get in shape or they are fired or dead. Not really much choice there.


Creeper who is done rambling.

[Twilight]

Lets say that the Byn have 500 members, coming and going and all that.  And a steady supply of new recruits.  I heavily suspect that most Noble Houses have maybe this many, or less.  You aren't talking about a Militia here.  A noble guard, with all that training, with devotion to the House, etc. is hard to replace, and you don't have -that- many of them.  Thats why you hire the Byn.

Something like the 'Nak Militia has something like 20,000 members (if I'm remembering an old post right).  So, take the best 100 from the Byn, and the best 100 from the Militia, and the Byn will be wiped out.  Take average members from each, and you're probably looking at a pretty even battle.

Its really hard to compare the military groups I think.  Some groups are rough and ready, some might be good at assasination, some have fielded commando units, some are better guarding, and some do almost all of the above.  As for PCs, I suppose it depends on which time period you are talking about, as this changes with individual PCs, which really doesn't relate well to how good all the NPCs and VNPCs are.

[Anonymous]

Ok, it's me again. The Byn fanatic. I'm a bit confused, I must admit... It seems like, apparently, even the tiny noble houses are housing an army unimaginable destruction. This raises one little question... If each noble house has their own militia-sized group of expertly-trained guards... Then how can the Byn even exist?

Think about it. Every time Lord Fancy Pants has to go somewhere, he hires out the Byn. Sure, the OOC reason is to involve more players. But their must be an IC reason, otherwise the Byn would have no use and would go out of business.

Consider how much money a noble house has invested in their personal guards.  Why risk losing that investment of time, training and money sending them out into the wastes to hunt a single runaway mul when you can hire the Byn to do it for the cost of what one or two dead sergeants would be worth.

In the past the Byn were often hired to supplement noble house guards during particular trips/quests.  Cheap labour.

[aeshyw]

I think that Creeper's message reflects a few common misconceptions about the noble houses.  The noble houses are not 'small' by any means - especially Tor and the Upper Tier.  The amount of sheer money and power amassed by an Oash or Borsail is really mind-boggling in comparison with the squallor the rest of the world lives in. The VNPC forces they house are well-equipped, well-trained and constantly exercising and patrolling to earn their well-paid keep.  The fact that noble PCs have to recruit in town is a bit misleading, I think.  The opportunity to live as well as a noble elite probably has people clamoring among the virtual population.  Think of it - these men have lodging, clothing, good food and water and top pay.

The reason a noble might hire the Byn to go somewhere (and I think that its a misconception that they do every time - a trip without them might be kept quiet for valid security reasons) is quite simple - they are cheap, expendable and represent no investment on the part of the noble house. If Lord Fancypants wants to go explore the Secret Cove of the Ancient Fluffy Bunny - he might take a few of his own elite guard to stay close, but as for the rest, why risk the huge investment and time that goes into training house guard when you can just have a few suckers in brown abas play bait at the perimeter for the cost of a few lengths of silk?

[Swordsman]

AC: you seem to be saying that Nenyuk would be like almost at a total loss if they had to attack anyone. I'd agree that their defensive work would be better than their offensive, but on the other hand, we were talking (or at least I was) about overall quality in a 'straight out' fight, with no particular mission goals or terrain factors in mind except for 'kill the enemy, who is also trying to kill you.' If you gave Nenyuk guards nothing to defend, I expect they would do a very good job of defending themselves. I just can't imagine a House that deals in money paying money to anything less than very good guards (talking overall, not about specialty guards like h-gs), and IMHO good guards means guards who can think (or at least have leaders who can think), as well as having combat skills.

aeshyw: good general point on player misconceptions. It does get hard sometimes, though, when it seems like every second person is a Bynner and the noble guards are off somewhere practising ... well, something important.

Swordsman

[Thoughtful General]

People use the Byn because it exists.  

Any House worth its salt, in real life, would not use mercenaries unless it absolutely had to.  Mercenaries are stupid to use, when it comes right down to it, because they can (and will) change sides on the drop of a coin.  A professional standing army (or professional guard) that is loyal to your House is a million times better than using mercs.  Only organizations with no standing professional military force use mercenaries.

But, since this is a game - we play by game standards.  The Byn is a large PC based organization - therefore Houses are asked to involve them in what they do.  Almost every House leader I've ever spoken to OOCly has lamented the fact they "had" to use the Byn.  Naturally, they didn't actually _have_ to use the Byn, but they felt compelled to so the Byn would have an actual function.

Realistically, who hires mercenaries to do guard detail?  Talk about asking for dissaster.  Still, the Byn holds a good number of PCs, and because of this, it is nice to involve them in House missions.  Due to this we see the Byn involved in functions that House Forces would be doing - scouting, patrolling, escorting, etc.  Often the Byn has more PCs than the House force - so to augment the number of players in the mission, people hire Byn.  

Thinking about it, the situation for PC Houses is that they don't have access to a large standing force - sure the virtual force is there and all, but they can't access it.  Therefore, they use the Byn.

If all virtuals were alive and well, I doubt the Byn would see so much 'action.'  The Byn would probably be relegated to providing service to rich independant merchants, to being hired by other organizations with no standing forces, or being involved in extremely 'high risk' situations being used as fodder.  

As for the sizes of different Houses - who knows.  I wouldn't hazard a guess.  Maybe someone could ask the imms to pass that information along, but I suspect they wouldn't.  

[The Lonely Hunter]

I've tried to stay mostly out of this because for several reasons but I would like to briefly point something out.
The T'zai Byn doesnt just 'spar mornings and do chores evenings'. They have specialty units, advanced training, and usually only Runners do the chores while real members (trooper+) are furthering their training.

It also seems a lot of people are sayen "but the Byn only has X ammount of people". Many of you are wrong with your numbers for one, and as a second point...read the post before you reply please. Equal means the same ammount. =)

Many of you have brought up very good ideas, thank you. Again, I must say I agree with AC who, imo, brought up a lot of things noone else seemed to consider untill after her posts.

Thanks again for the replies =)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Why do you say noone works with Mercenaries? You are incorrect. The simple fact is that even in todays modern world, mercenaries obtain employment with druglords and small contries. In the 1600's, 17oo's and 1800's, mercenaries were used -all- the time to bolster army ranks, becuase mercenaries actually do have a code of honor.

If a company took a contract, and then betrayed that contract becuase someone else offered more money, then they lost reputation, and that was not good for future business. So they honored their contracts. Betrayal is foolish when you consider that your lively hood consists of public conception of your reputation.

So no. Mercenaries do -not- 'betray' you. They take the contract , serve it, and -then-, later, take another contract. That one might or might not be against you, but for the time that they are serving you, they are loyal. I also want to remind you all of this.

A mercenary unit is led by someone. That someone must be able to lead their troops. If they cannot, then their reputation is ruined again. Sure, mercenary troops are -generally- not required to be as clean and sweet as military and noble troops, but they are most certianly not inept, becuase if they were, then they would not be hired. And they -did- get hired.

So while I agree that the Byn may not be the strongest unit in the world, they will most certianly be hired, becuase they -are- ept enough to function in the roles they are hired for. And in fact, often, independents -do- hire the Byn, and I view this the main role of the mercenaries during peace. During wartime, they would be involved in battle, it is true, but they would not just 'switch' sides...they would just be on whoever side hired them first.

Venomz

[creeper386]

First of all, besides a small typo that shouldn't be there, my message shouldn't reflect anything that noble houses are small. The only numbers I mentioned were PERSONAL guards. Each noble would have his own personal guards that are hand picked from their army. In a larger house the nobles personal guard could probably be 100-200 men. Each noble having their own group, and when not out and about those groups would probably be the main force on the INSIDE of the compounds(In the buildings and such)

Now, not every house has a massive army, but for the most part, I bet all the noble houses, as well as the merchant houses, they well have an army. Just because you can run a large orginization without some sort of group of guards and offensive forces. It's just a common fact.

Now, that should read, "Just because you CAN'T run a large orginazation without some sort of group of guards..." And although I haven't reread the whole post thats the only place I can see any misconception. In my opinion most likely the noble houses would have an army at least as large as the Byn if not larger, but if a mission isn't secretive or anything, and is highly dangerous, no way would a noble house waist loyal and skilled men, they just hire the Byn.

And I think they'd mostly loose if not just for the better equipment and living conditions as I mentioned before. And like Lonely Hunter said there, numbers don't mean anything. I was just speaking about that because a few posts acted like the noble houses wouldn't have any sort of army. When most likely their personal guards alone could be considered a small army, on top of the more numbers that are used for guarding their compounds, and then any elite forces for certain things, and their main offensive force... I'd think it'd add up to be a fairly good sized army.

If memory serves me right, if the noble houses didn't have a good solid army there's a good chance that they wouldn't exist, I'm sure at some points there have been fighting between houses, and such, along with houses fighting in the wars between city states and all that... I beleive the house's armies would see at least as much action as the Byn except most of it would be fighting against people, getting new/protecting old prospects and endevers.

Creeper who is going to TRY and make alittle more cohersion to hold his posts together but isn't promising anything!

[Hot_Dancer]

I like the Byn's odds, there's no way a "Drunken and disorderly" unit could have a monopoly over the mercenary business in all of the Known World. They're highly trained, wealthy, established, disciplined, rugged and proven. They're the real deal but, how would they do against an equal force of Soh Lanah Kah? *woots*

[Anonymous]

I like the Byn's odds, there's no way a "Drunken and disorderly" unit could have a monopoly over the mercenary business in all of the Known World.

Being established, well-known and connected does not automatically mean they are a quality organization.  Perhaps they started out that way.

I have played and will continue to play in the Byn.  I don't hate them (I do struggle with their rigid structure though, as a player I'm a little bit flighty) and I've enjoyed my times with them.  That being said I *like* roleplaying that I'm a lazy, no-good, hapless runner/trooper looking to get by with as little effort as possible and that I'm not the only one.  And I really believe the inclusive nature of the Byn is not something that would create an environment where they churn out well-disciplined members like the militia, Tor or an Upper Tier noble house would.

They're highly trained, wealthy, established, disciplined, rugged and proven

I disagree on all accounts except rugged and established.  Obviously this is a perspective thing that an Imm would have the answer for.  But wealthy and disciplined...no way.  Maybe their PCs are more wealthy and highly trained than other PCs, but I don't think that's indicative of how things really are.

That may be true. I've seen people who've trained for years in martial arts get cold clocked or just plain get their ass beaten against a thug or two. And I don't think your point or mine has anything to do with this. (The part about hand to hand training, since I have yet to see two large forces on armageddon show up to duke it out.)

[Dan]

Its time for another war HRPT if you ask me.