Armageddon military forces

[The Lonely Hunter]

Recently I got into a debate (which is rare for me) with someone OOC and, well, no matter how many times I asked them to hush they just kept going. It spurred me to get a general opinion of the players (who read the gdb).

I won't reviel my opinion because I don't want the answers to be biased.

The discussion was about the T'zai Byn, a mercenary company, against any given noble or militia soldiers.

One of us argued (untill I just let him keep going with himself heh) that the Byn could take most noble or city-state soldiers in a battle given the numbers were even.

The other argued that the Byn are below the standards and training of a 'professional soldier' and would get their butts kicked by any noble house guard or city-state militia, again if the numbers were even.

So, what do you guys think?
Staff opionions especially welcome as they, as well as the older players, would have a better grasp on the diffrent military in our little world.

[Fedaykin]

If they were really that good, they'd get themselves a real, well paying job    :wink:

[Anonymous]

Good question... I dont even know what I think

I would think that the Byn would stomp them yet nobles and almost free armor... wristrazors... stuff like that just kinda makes me think... I dunno

[Carnage]

The Byn might be able to take a couple of houses. Fale. Some lesser-known-ones.

No way in hell they'd ever be able to defeat Tor or Borsail, though.

From my understanding, the Byn is like Red Storm. A haven for criminals, Northerners, and a few assorted others. I think a decent portion of it is looking to just stay alive and joined up for the food/shelter for a year.

Second, keep in mind that the Byn isn't a very disciplined fighting force. Take a look at their barracks. It's disgusting. Look at them. They're disgusting and unclean most of the time. So now, you've basically got a bunch of filthy soldiers. Compare that to a noble house. They're taught to keep things neat. They know to keep together. They're a well-oiled army, not a group of soldiers.

Third, I could be wrong, but most of the Byn is runners. People that are coming in and out. Maybe they're moving on to join a noble house or just want that shelter for a year, or even just to get the training. Compare that to the lifelong veterans a house has, and the house wins again.

Not to mention the strategy. A Warlord is educated in strategy and tactics. They've studied past failures of dead conquerors, and the successes of others. They know how an army truly works. Now, on the other hand, the Byn strategist is just some mercenary. Sure, he has experience, but mostly with small unit tactics. And if he was really any good, a house probably would have hired him on.

In a big skirmish, say 1200 or more, I'd say that a house would win, hands down, by superior tactics. Less than that would most likely just be going head to head, where I'd say a house would win, but suffer some losses. Houses are more well-trained, probably better outfitted and armored due to being filthy rich, and also have superior tactics. For the most part, I really wouldn't want to piss one off.

So, in summary, house > Byn in a war.

[Anonymous]

I think anyone who believes that the Byn would beat a noble house's guard is confusing PC buffness with what a given group's actual abilities would be.

The reality is, to me, that the better trainers/military commanders go where there is more money.  The noble houses.  They in turn pass on a greater level of learning to their subordinates.

Sure, a group of 5 day old Byn PCs vs. a group of 5 day old Noble guard PCs is going to result in a win for the Bynners due to mandatory sparring and structured training.

But the structure for a noble house's guard contingent would be far more strict and disciplined than the Byn is, in reality, regardless of how the actual noble houses are setup because of what I alluded to above.

More money = Better Leaders = More discplined and trained troops.

[Glowworm]

What CRW said.  The best of the Byn would likely be plucked from their ranks by more attractive offers from noble houses.

[Sir Bynsalot]

The byn could beat most people's active non-virtual pc guards. but in the virtual-reality of Armageddon the noble houses have a much larger and well-trained group then the 1-5 active guards of any given house. Where as the byn as a whole is only about... 250 per warband or something I think I read in the documentation.

Anyways, if you mean player v. player the byn would win I think. if you mean virtual vs. virtual, the byn would lose. and thus why their ic situation is such a poor one... a small compound in the crap part of town, eating stew and bread and wearing brown as their primary color

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I'm going to go against the grain here, and say the Byn would stand a good chance of overpowering your average noble house. Although, I have to admit, probably not Borsail or Tor, and definetly not the Allanak Militia. If Tektolnes saw his army losing to a bunch of mercenaries, he'd probably come in as the dragon and mess the Bynners up. But other then that unlikely scenario...

Ok, yes. Your average noble guard is cleaner. So what? If it was a beauty pageant, the Byn would loose, heh. Otherwise, I'd say they'd stand a fair chance. But really, it'd depend on the circumstances.

If the number of people involved in the fight was limited, the Byn would be in trouble. I think one of the Byn's main tactics is 'numbers. And lots of 'em'. Those of you saying the Byn is 'just a few Warbands', dont' know what you're talking about (No offense). Byn Warbands are HUGE, and are complete with a battle-seasoned Lieutanant (Not all Bynners march off to happily join Borsail, you know. Some stay on for their whole lives, despite what their player might say, heh). But, if this fight was limited to 1,000 warriors or so, the Byn may have to rethink their tactics.

The Byn would be at an advantage, I think, if the battle was fought outside the walls of 'Nak. The Byn can handle themselves in the desert, and they know how to fight dirty. Noble guards might not have spent as much time out there, spending their time dragging riff-raff out of their estate, and so on. The Byn might be able to lead the assaulting army into a gaj's lair, or off a cliff (How ironic would that be?   ).

Basically, my point is that it's all about circumstances. But, I think, on a good day, the T'zai Byn might be able to overpower your average noble house. So here is my little chain of power...

Allanak Militia>Tor and Borsail>T'zai Byn>Your average noble house.

Ok, preparing to be shot down...

[Angela Christine]

But, if this fight was limited to 1,000 warriors or so, the Byn may have to rethink their tactics

I thought the Byn was supposed to be around 400 warriors.  They took some hard hits in the war, but that was sufficiently long ago for them to have gotten back up to strength.  They may even be a couple hundred more since they've been expanding.

You wouldn't want to send out the runners, any more than the other groups would want to send out their cadets and recruits.  Sending out the raw recruits does nothing to test the skill and training of the organization, since the recruits have not completed the basic level of that training.  Further, you would want the ranks that do go into the fight to be equal.  So each group should have the same number of Commanders, Captains, Luitenants, Sergeants, Corprals, and Privates.  This will take some tweaking, because the organizations don't all use the same rank structure.  The Byn doesn't have seperate ranks for enlisted men, so the total number of Privates+Corprals=Troopers.  And I think the milita Rank structure is a little funky, with Corprals and Sergeants being reversed in status, so Byn Sergeants=Milita Corprals, and Militia Sergeant=Byn Trooper.  Go figure.  For it to be a fair contest, you need to have the same number of soldiers on each side.  Excluding Runners, the Byn could probably throw 200-300 fighters into the contest.  Some of the House guards might be smaller than that, I can't see Fale or Sath needing more than 100, any more than that is really a needless expense.  Nobles have deep pockets, not bottemless ones.  

The main factors that will come into play are Equipment, Training, and Experience.

In general, the Noble Houses have pretty good equipment, but this can vary with a few houses choosing the equipment that looks the best over the most practical or effective equipment.  Tor and Borsail seem to use excellent equipment, Fale seemed to like to have a bit of silk on their guards, which was probably less effective.  The Militia have good equipment, but not really excellent equipment -- some militia upgrade their equipment at their own expense.  Bynners have . . . unique equipment.  The only standard issue bit is their sleeves and aba, the rest is whatever that particular bynner bought for himself.  New Runners and
newly promoted Troopers usually have crappy stuff, but most seasoned veterns have bought or "found" good equipment.

Training is hard to pin down.  Most people know about the Byn training schedual, but the virtual training of the other groups (especially the virtual noble houses) isn't as well known.  I assume that ICly, the other groups have excellent training, although this would vary between the houses.  The non-military Houses may not have much of a training program, sending their recruits to the Byn for basic training (or hiring ex-bynners) and sending their officers and officer candidates to the Tor academy.  In this case most of their enlisted men would be roughly equal to a 1-2 year bynner.

Experience.  This is important, most of the house guards will have little real experience.  They fight the occasional would-be assasin and execute the odd impertanent commoner, but they rarely rumble with an equal force that is bent on killing them.  Few of them would have the experience of seeing a buddy's brains get splattered by a mace.  Probably the only Houses with much real experience will be Tor and Borsail, since they both have reasons to leave the gates and fight.  The militia has experience, but depending on what units are chosen their experience could work against them.  The milita are used to having huge numerical superiority.  When dealing with criminals or hostiles at the gates, you usually have at least three militia for each hostile.  In larger battles the militia is usually supported by Templars and sometimes gemmed magickers, obviously this would not be the case in a battle designed to test just battle prowess of the soldiers (house magickers would have to be exclued as well, for the same reason.  The byn has plenty of experience, mainly on the squad level, but with the occasional large battle as well.

Another factor that might come into play is diversity.  Mul soldiers are rare in all organizations, half-giants make at least a small percentage of all of them, and humans are the dominant race in all organizations.  Dwarves are good little fighters, but due to their quirkyness some groups refuse to hire them -- the byn has a fair number of dwarves, as far as I know the militia has none.  Elves and half-elves are not allowed in most organizations, but the byn recruits a fair number.  I don't know if this is a plus or a minus though.  Having more dwarves, elves and half-elves might make the bynners more flexible and unpredictable in battle than an all-human army, but it also creates more internal division.  Do you really trust that elf to guard your back in battle, or will the lure of looting the bodies and running away be too strong for him to resist?  Are you going to put your neck out to rescue some half-breed scum who dropped his sword just because he wears the same uniform as you?  

The fact that the Byn is willing to hire almost anyone from anywhere is another mixed blessing.  The noble houses and milita strongly favor hiring Allanak-born humans, they byn will hire 'nakkies, 'rinther scum, tribal nomads, northerners, heck, they'd probably hire a gith if it had the 300 'sid.  These folks bring diverse fighting styles that the all-Allanak forces may not know how to counter effectively, but they also bring more in-house conflict.  'Rinthers are usually considered as untrustworthy as elves, regardless of race.  Northerner's and Southerner's have a certain amount of "natural" animosity, even if they don't give a damn about politics.

In summary, I agree with 5monkeys' assessment, except the bit about Tektolnes, since that would negate the results of the combat.  Without magickal backup, I think the militia would drop down a bit, enough to be eclipsed by the elite forces of Tor and Borsail.

Tor and Borsail
Militia and Byn
Other Noble Houses

AC

[Meep]

From my experience most noble houses have an even more rigorous training schedule than the Byn since their soldiers rarely have to do actual "chores". That frees up a lot of time for training.

[Eclipse]

I'm not overly familiar with this but the Byn's numerical strength is held around a few hundred individuals at any given time. While PC-wise, they consist of the bulk of the playerbase, virtually they are (I would think) roughly the same size as a Noble House guard force of one of the higher tiers. Some houses with less economical power may boast a smaller guard force but the more financially or militarily inclined I would imagine to maintain a strong guard force if for nothing else than the show of power and political effects.

Clans Summary Website: "A very few are true warriors, dedicated to studying the Art of War. Most, however, are just honest citizens looking to make a living as best they can."

That is from the website. Noble Houses would probably be hiring career-specific individuals into their ranks. Why hire somebody for a guard job when they have no skills that would contribute to that? Not meaning that it would have to be a warrior class but the Byn recruits anybody that can pay the 300 bucks while Noble Houses are paying people to do that work with dedication, loyalty, and all the other stuff you hear in recruitment speels. As a result, those members of a Noble House I would imagine are more capable at combat due to their training, their leaning towards the guard area, and their heightened dedication from the requirements of the Noble House. There are also other more minor aspects which might just be annoying to consider such as job satisfaction (working for a respectable Noble House or for a grungy mercenary group), health (have mekillot steak with a Noble House daily or eat a bowl of slop and stale bread), living quarters and sleep arrangements (nice, organized sleeping areas or theft-rampant, noisy-as-hell living areas), etc. would have some effect on morale and job performance.

In a pitched battle, if you took the entire Byn contingent and shoved it onto a field, I think a small segment of it would survive. The true warriors which have remained to study the Art of War. Borsail or Tor would tear them apart but with some losses. The Militia would eradicate the Bynnish forces as I would hope they have more training than a group of mercenaries consisting of whoever they can find to fill the ranks. Particularly since we are talking about an army which deals in large-scale actions or at least, trains for large-scale actions in preparation of war.

Then again, I'm immensely groggy so who knows. I may just be spewing a bunch of treasonous northern talk.

[Armaddict]

Here's my opinion.

Even though it isn't reflected in the skills, noble guards are given formal, -proven- effective training that teaches them exactly what the best reaction is to each movement.  It's similar to chess:  Every move an opponent makes has a counter-move that is more effective than any other under certain circumstances.  Thus, noble forces really are given the best of the best, and their fighting is also coordinated and well-timed...one watching them fight would know they knew exactly what they were doing and would think their movements flowed very well.

A bynner on the other hand, is basically training himself through sparring.  He reaches his own decisions on how to handle certain situations, and may go on instinct alone.  They are sometimes taught by superiors...who also learned how to fight through their own experience.  Thus, they can teach themselves 'wrong'.  They won't have the weapons finesse a well-trained fighter will.

What I'm getting at, is that a fight between the byn and any noble house's forces, and perhaps even the city's soldiers (not sure what kind of training they get.  I know officers are usually trained by Tor, in the south), is comparable to the germanic hordes fighting against the roman empire.  Discipline and formal training against uncoordinated, brutish masses.

We all know the outcome of those conflicts.

[Swordsman]

If you're talking about long-term average quality of soldiers and medium-sized units (say, 30 soldiers) for comparison, I'd rate the Byn above average. I think 30 soldiers in competing groups would be a good base because I think almost any military force would be able to field this number of soldiers (even if it might be all/most of the force), and that makes for a fair and sensible comparison. Talk about less than that, and it really depends on which small unit of a force you choose. Talk about more than that (like 1,000 Byn vs. 1,000 'naki militia) and the discussion starts losing all sensibility (saying 'Byn commanders are no good because they wouldn't have experience commanding 1,000 troops' makes as much sense to me as saying 'Allanaki militia commanders are no good because they wouldn't have experience commanding 1,000,000 troops' ... a good commander will be good at commanding the number of troops he/she actually has, and that's all that really counts IMO).

If we talk about averages and don't count raw recruits, I disagree with anyone who thinks that the Byn is just some bunch of totally useless incompetents. Let's think about a few things. The Byn's pretty big for a merc company AFAIK, so that says something about their organisation and discipline already, even if their street reputation might be low. The Byn's survived for many IC years, so that says something about their leadership. The Byn make a living from fighting, so that says something about their skill (incompetent mercs are dead mercs). The Byn has a big complex near probably the biggest marketplace in the Known World, so that says something about its political savvy, besides telling us it's not exactly a poor organisation. (I'm not a Bynner BTW, so all of this stuff is just from general info I've heard and my own guessing.) So, no offence, but some of the criticisms of the Byn that I read in this thread I think are just wrong.

A typical medium-sized Byn unit would IMO get wiped out against a crack unit of Allanaki or Tuluki militia or the elite guard corps of a House (assuming that corps wasn't a 'just for show' group of morons in expensive armour), but I think they'd do very well against anyone else ... and that'd mean most people.

Where I think a crack unit has the advantage over a Byn unit:
- no expense spared on armour, weapons, nutrition, and training.
- extreme emphasis on loyalty and discipline (plus stricter selection of who gets into the unit), so that every single soldier would know their commander and each other like the backs of their hands.
- exceptionally good coordination as a military unit through virtue of lots of experience working together.
- if the unit commander is even remotely competent, he/she will make sure that the unit gets lots of appropriate 'real' (not sparring) military operations experience, and survives to learn from it.

Where I think a Byn unit has the advantage over other merc units:
- better facilities and training through virtue of being a bigger, better-established organisation with more experienced leaders.
- bigger contracts = more dangerous = more/tougher military operations experience for those who survive.

Just my take.

Swordsman

[Angela Christine]

A bynner on the other hand, is basically training himself through sparring.  He reaches his own decisions on how to handle certain situations, and may go on instinct alone.  They are sometimes taught by superiors...who also learned how to fight through their own experience.  Thus, they can teach themselves 'wrong'.  They won't have the weapons finesse a well-trained fighter will.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that.  PC bynners spar a lot, but there is all that virtual training going on too.  The T'zai Byn have been around for hundreds of years, you learn a few things in that time.  There have been times when nearly the entire PC population has been wiped out by a contract gone wrong, but that wouldn't put a big dent in the NPC population.  The Noble Houses and Militia have the advantage that their commanders can commit tactics and stratagy to paper, to be reviewed and used by future generations of commanders, while Bynners have to rely on oral transmision of knowledge, and things get more garbled that way.  But those generations of knowledge would still get passed down.  There are some old bynner NPCs, I would assume that they are virtually passing on their experience to younger members.  The Comander, Captains, and Luitenants didn't get their jobs just because they happened to be born into the right bloodline; they have to prove that they aren't fools by working their way up from Runner, and then prove they can be leaders by not getting their squad killed as a Sergeant.  Big dumb fighters have their place, but they rarely get promoted past Trooper.  I've seen a few half-giants in the byn, but never a half-giant Sergeant.

They go on all sorts of missions, everything from a full fleged war to a few guys on a mapping or herb collecting expedition, and I assume the Sergeants report all this to their luitenants, who report it to the other officers.  They often go as backup troops (or cannon fodder) with other groups like the Militia or Tor, and while they might never be told exactly what the mission was about, they do get to observe the procedures and tactics used.  The Commander, Captains and Lts don't go out on missions that often, they stay home and remember everything they've learned, and pass it on to the next generation of officers.  

ICly Bynners do have classes in weapons training, unarmed combat, desert training, long-range combat, how to maintain their equipment, and all the other things a soldier would want to know.  For PCs this often occurs as sparring and slightly-different-sparring, but that is because PCs rely on other PCs.  Occasionally a higher ranking PC will give an actual lesson, but the lessons are mostly virtual.  I assume the Houses lessons are also mostly virtual, because it just isn't practical for there to be "teacher" PCs on-line 24 hours a day.  When the PC Sergeants and PC officers are on-line, most people would rather RP an actual mission than RP a lesson, but ICly those lessons are still happening.

The Byn have a full schedual, they are working on being excellent freelance soldiers from dawn to dusk, almost every day.  The runners spend a couple afternoons a week doing chores, and they usually get the weekends off (unless there is a mission) but I doubt that ICly Milita and House guards spend any more time training than Bynners do.  A couple extra afternoons spent in lessons instead of chores wouldn't make a huge difference, in my opinion.  

At the grunt level, I doubt the Houses have much more training, or more proven techniques to teach.  It's probably a little better, sure, and their training for high-level officers may be significantly better.  But I doubt any of the houses use as much field training as the Byn.  When you have paid thousands of sids training and equipping each man, you aren't likely to send him on a mission where half the squad is likely to get killed . . . unless it is a really, really important mission.  For missions that are very dangerous without being critical or top-secret, even the Militia and the Nobles are more likely to hire the Byn than to risk their own necks.  If you want a silt-horror shell, anakore claws or news on what is going on up in the Blackwing outpost, why risk losing all that equipment when you can hire the byn and not even half to pay them unless they return successfully with your order?  If they all die or get captured, you pay nothing!  And if they are captured they can't be tortured into revealing house secrets, because they don't know your secrets.  It's a win-win situation.  There are places a ragged mercenary bunch can go that would be more dangerous for uniformed militia to go.  Take some place like Red Storm, a small militia or noble group is likely to attract some unwanted attention, but a large force would be seen as potential invaders and probably wouldn't be let in at all.  If you want some exotic northern herbs, who has a better chance of comming back with the goods, the widely disliked Bynners or the widely hated, kill-em-on-sight milita?  The northern government has been pretty relaxed with the Byn, but I doubt they would shrug off a visit from the Allanak Militia or House Borsail.  You send mercenary scum on the missions you don't want to do (or can't do) yourself, which means that the mercenaries do get some experiences the House Guards don't get.

The goal of the competition would also matter.  If the goal is to capture as many of the other team as possible alive, the Borsail would have a clear advantage over everyone else, because as slavers their training is focused on capturing live creatures and potential gladiators for the arena.  Is the competition going to occur in the city streets, the arena, the dunes near the city, or some exotic terrain far from the city?  If it takes place in the streets of the city, or in the Templar's quarter, the milita would have the clear advantage.  If it took place at a noble estate or compound, the house guard would have the advantage.  If it is some bit of wilderness far from the city, it would probably favor the Bynners because they would be the ones most used to working in unfamiliar terrain.  If it was the sand dunes just outside of the city, the Byn and other groups that routinely practice desert manuvers would have the advantage over those that don't.  I doubt that most Noble House Guards bother with desert training, since their mission primarily involves protecting House property and nobles, and doing it inside a well-protected city, except for the occasional wagon trip.  Why get everyone's armor stained and banged up on excercises that won't help them fulfill their primary duties?  That would be like Bynners taking lessons in ettiquite and ballroom dancing.  


Oh, and the question forgot to include the Merchant Houses.  I think the Byn could take Kadius, Voyeck and Nenyuck under most circumstances.  Salarri guards potentally have the best equipment of anyone, which could make them tough.  The Kuraci are sneaky devils, and have experince in a wide variety of conditions, they could probably give the Byn, the militia and many noble houses  a run for their money in the right circumstances.

AC

[Sir Bynsalot]

Byn would get walloped by any force out there.
They are only MAXIMUM 500 troops in the world. They are spread out on virtual contracts, a good make up of their group is RUNNERs, inexperienced twits that wouldnt know their sword from their ass.

The militia is supposed to be 1000s+, the controlling force for over half the world. Countless ranges, villages, the mighty city of the highlord, the obsidian mine. Their ranks are bolstered with Templars, Half-giants, state of the art weaponry and armor. I doubt they Byn is even a threat to them, or they wouldnt allow them to run in the city.

Tor, while a bit small and elitest, has probably some of the wisest and strongest fighters in the world. Serving as advisors to the army, and all that. I dont know exact numbers because Ive never played a PC in them. But Im guessing theyd at least stand a chance.

Oash, I believe their nickname are the Elites. I think they'd do okay.

Borsail, they are supposedly the most noble of noble houses. if their guard isnt top notched then they wouldnt be.


Um I think thats all. the byn is overrated due to the PC population. they really arnt that big. if more people liked being talked down to by snide and rude noble characters you'd see the same thing in the noble guards. Id take a lieutenant to a noble anyday.

[Angela Christine]

Byn would get walloped by any force out there.
They are only MAXIMUM 500 troops in the world.

Yes, but remember that for this contest it is an EQUAL number, not the entire force.  It could be a dozen bynners against a dozen militia, or 100 bynners against 100 wyverns.  

Further, I would disqualify all Runners, Cadets and Recruits, since they are not trained, and therefore their preformance would not reflect the training.  

That's all.

AC

For one reason. You can sit around and play fight all you want. Your still not a veteran of actually going out and fighting. In my view the Byn are actually out and about fighting in a "real world" situation, and not locked in the Tor compound or whatever. I think realistically, field experience for fighting, especially if the battle was outside the walls, would make a huge difference. Sure the nobles might have ex-bynners too. I say Byn training is good enough to match the noble house..keep his weapon away and chop the other guy, simple.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems most noble houses have no one to fight, and rarely field their troops to do anything and gain field experience.

[Anonymous]

For one reason. You can sit around and play fight all you want. Your still not a veteran of actually going out and fighting. In my view the Byn are actually out and about fighting in a "real world" situation, and not locked in the Tor compound or whatever. I think realistically, field experience for fighting, especially if the battle was outside the walls, would make a huge difference.

I have a friend who trained in martial arts for years and his first fight was in Mexico and he took out two rough and tumble types in under one minute.  Both of them knocked out after coming at him.

I'd liken Tor and Upper Tier noble house training and demands on their guards to be something similar.  All things being equal I'll grant you, I'll take experience over training everytime.  But not when the training is as demanding as what I envision Tor, militia and upper tier noble house training to be.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems most noble houses have no one to fight, and rarely field their troops to do anything and gain field experience.

Everytime the Byn goes out it isn't to kill off equal numbers of tough and surly badass raiders.  From what I've seen their successes have been through sheer numbers.

In the end I imainge you could cobble together the best the Byn has to offer and they could hold their own against most.  But by and large I see the Byn as a group of drunken, disorderly weekend warriors.

[Swordsman]

Following a comment from AC, I would actually guess that Nenyuk rates very high in terms of overall quality of their guard corps, for one simple reason: consider what they're guarding, and what type of world it is. I'm not saying the lowliest Nenyuki guard would be the equivalent of a master warrior in any other organisation, but I'd guess that as a whole the Nenyuki guards would be very good and able to defeat or hold off most attackers. If they weren't, Nenyuk would probably have gone bankrupt long ago. But then again for all I know Nenyuk has other forces (which would of course be highly IC-sensitive) for dealing with would-be robbers and so maybe their guards don't have to be super good.

Swordsman

[Angela Christine]

Following a comment from AC, I would actually guess that Nenyuk rates very high in terms of overall quality of their guard corps, for one simple reason: consider what they're guarding, and what type of world it is.

I think they would be very good defensively, but their offence would suck.  Most of thier banks and wagons look really solid, not quite an armored truck, but solid.  They would have no reason to practice offensive manuvers, their job consists of defending hard targets and spotting potential troublemakers.  Throw them into a battle ground with nothing to defend, and what are they going to do?  

Playing "capture the flag" against these guys would really suck.  Their entire team would form an impenatrable defense around their flag.  After your team had made a few unsuccsessful attacks, one of their guys would try to convince you to deposit your flag with them voluntarily, to keep it "safe."   :twisted:

AC

[Ixidor]

It depends on rankings of the men in the battle and whether or not they are pcs or npcs.

The way I see it over all the byn would get a couple but overall the would lose because of their lack of training....

As I see it houses hold a higher standard in their training and make better warriors of thier guards than the byn.

Oh and dont forget the races of the fighters, if ye have lots of dwarfs on one they are probably gonna win lest the others have halfgiants of really badass humans or elfs.

Thats just my two sid.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think every one of you forgot Kurac. And that is not even a noble House. It is a merchant House. I will tell you right now. I think Kurac is more than likely one of the top three most dangerous -Houses- man to man.

Venomz

[John]

I think every one of you forgot Kurac.

Nope, AC mentioned 'em ages ago. We just don't much about you drug-dealers that's all.

[Rindan]

I think every one of you forgot Kurac. And that is not even a noble House. It is a merchant House. I will tell you right now. I think Kurac is more than likely one of the top three most dangerous -Houses- man to man.

I think that Kurac would lay waste to everyone in an equal sized fight.  Kuraci troops are very well trained and make the most fanatical noble house soldiers look like disloyal wastes.  I think only rebel type folks can give them a challenge for being the most fanatical.  They sit in the middle between practical experience and formal training.  They certainly have the resources for proper training, but they also get their hands dirty.  

Kuraci are just bad ass in general.  At least you can run from one city state to the other and gain some sort of reprieve if you piss off the powers.  You can't do that with Kurac.  You can physically see that Kurac is everywhere in every major center of civilization.  Now, if they let themselves be seen everywhere, and they are known for secrecy, think of how much is out there that they are not letting you see.  Further, you don't even know what a Kuraci looks like or how they speak.  They could be a southerner, a northerner, an elf, a half elf, a human, you name it.  Kurac gets my vote for the most badass fighting force in the known world.  Hell, they get my vote for most badass in everything.  

If it wasn't for the two god kings on either side of Kurac, you would be calling the militia in both city states Regulars and they would all be wearing dun colored cloaks, spice would be legal everywhere, and Templars would be a thing of the past.

[Meep]

Yeah, rebels were pretty vicious. Formal military training via legionairres + tribal inspired warfare variants + geurilla tactics + an almost fanatical devotion to the pope.. err I mean their cause.

[Thoughtful General]

Here is my own ranking (in terms of strategic and tactical skill as opposed to overall forces or absolute strength) for the Houses and mercenary groups in the known world.

Sun Legions
Allanaki Militia
House Tor
House Kurac
Tan Muark
Ptar Ken
Blackwing
Sundry Gith Tribes
Red Storm (look at all them muls)
Byn
House Borsail
House Winrothol
House Tenneshi
House Oash
House Nenyuk
Huose Salarr
House Kadius
House Fale

Well, that's the PC Houses and a couple ones that used to be PC based groups or races.

Why do I place th Byn above most of the noble houses?  Because most of the noble houses recruit Byn types for their experience.  They don't have standing generals who make a life time study of tactics and war - instead they are schooled in defending and guarding.  They do have lifelong commanders though who maintain the warbands for ready action as mercenary units.  If rl is any parallel - mercenaries are commanded outside their units by leaders from whomever hired them in times of war.  Therefore, they never truly master the art of war - no need.  Instead they've mastered the art of fighting.  

Borsail does some limited raiding - but mostly for capturing slaves.  Therefore the targets are mostly lacking in defense and are ripped to shreds.

Basically, at the top of the list are the organizations that make a study of war.  Then come the tribes and groups that make a study of fighting.  Then comes raiding, followed by guarding, followed by hunting, and ending with looking pretty.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Ok, it's me again. The Byn fanatic. I'm a bit confused, I must admit... It seems like, apparently, even the tiny noble houses are housing an army unimaginable destruction. This raises one little question... If each noble house has their own militia-sized group of expertly-trained guards... Then how can the Byn even exist?

Think about it. Every time Lord Fancy Pants has to go somewhere, he hires out the Byn. Sure, the OOC reason is to involve more players. But their must be an IC reason, otherwise the Byn would have no use and would go out of business. Even that aba, those sparring weapons, and the bowls filled with free stew cost money. And considering the decent size of the Byn, I'd imagine the costs add up. And yet, the Byn not only breaks even, but has actually made hordes of 'sid. How is this, you ask? The only logical explanation I can think of is that these big and tough noble houses seem to be hiring out the Byn a good amount.

Otherwise, why doesn't Lord Fancy Pants just send out his own little gentically-modified, brainwashed, uber-powerful army to escort him? Well... Maybe because he doesn't have one. Or maybe because a lifetime of sitting around the estate and making empty threats to passing 'rinthers has made his boys soft. Or maybe Lord Fancy Pants likes to keep both an estate in the Northlands and the Southlands (One for the Arc of Acension, one for the Arc of Decension, and of course his extra-large silt skimmer he uses during Low Arc). So maybe his resources are spread too thin.

But no matter who figure it, ICly, most of the noble houses need the Byn in some way. Sure, you could argue that nobles like the Byn because if they die, it's no skin off their nose. But hey, think about it... Will they really care if hand-full of recruited guards dies, as well? Just tossing out a random idea for the discussion.

[creeper386]

Well, I'm going to have to agree that most likely on any large scale battle, the Byn is going to loose, and in smaller scales it'd probably be difficult. Byn spend most their time fighting, yes. But fighting big animals, fighting gith or what not is going to be different then fighting trained military forces.

Also, Byn stays in business because they do the dirty stuff. They'll willing to go acrossed the known world for the right amount of 'sid. Now, why doesn't a noble send out his own army to do this? Because his army stays protecting his grounds. Also, a noble IS going to be more willing to throw away Bynners he bought then his own recruits. Recruits show prospect for the House, most of them are also are going to be quite loyal.

Now, hiring Byn for traveling. A noble won't just take all his house guards and go adventuring. Look in real life. Important people have their small group of personal guards 2-10 ussually, and then they hire out for the rest. Why? Mostly because their guards and such aren't going to be knowing the terrain they are traveling through, may not have as much experience fighting big bugs, or a gith raid.

Now, not every house has a massive army, but for the most part, I bet all the noble houses, as well as the merchant houses, they well have an army. Just because you can run a large orginization without some sort of group of guards and offensive forces. It's just a common fact.

Reasons why the Byn is less likely to win most fights against although groups. Most of them except the Byn are given uniforms consisting of good armour, while most the Byn have various pieces or cheap armour. The other groups are also probably going be alot better physically and mentally, not only are those groups able to pick and choose who they want, they tend to keep them fed and everything else, meaning good chance they are going to be in better shape, more intelligent and so on. Also the training, the Byn does have people good in fights, but the other groups well probably have more people specialized in different categories, giving better strategy and such. Probably also have some sort of long range people that are being supported by others, everythings going to work together ALOT better.

Now, saying the Byn has more experience... The militia does work all around the city, probably going further out, as well as dealing with all the stuff inside the city, which could include taking care of Bynners as well. The houses and other groups have been about along time, they probably have alot more veterans that only job is to advise. They probably take place in personal wars here and there, most likely each group has a good amount of hunters to keep everyone fed, even if they don't work completely for the house they could easiely be called upon. Going out and staking new territory for this group or that would happen alot. And generally just guarding things and all the other experience everyone else gets.

But when it comes down to it, I'd say the most important matters is living conditions, including where they are sleeping, food and places they hang around and such, equipment, and certainly training, which I highly doubt any of the groups with have lazy men, or flabby men or what not. Either they get in shape or they are fired or dead. Not really much choice there.


Creeper who is done rambling.

[Twilight]

Lets say that the Byn have 500 members, coming and going and all that.  And a steady supply of new recruits.  I heavily suspect that most Noble Houses have maybe this many, or less.  You aren't talking about a Militia here.  A noble guard, with all that training, with devotion to the House, etc. is hard to replace, and you don't have -that- many of them.  Thats why you hire the Byn.

Something like the 'Nak Militia has something like 20,000 members (if I'm remembering an old post right).  So, take the best 100 from the Byn, and the best 100 from the Militia, and the Byn will be wiped out.  Take average members from each, and you're probably looking at a pretty even battle.

Its really hard to compare the military groups I think.  Some groups are rough and ready, some might be good at assasination, some have fielded commando units, some are better guarding, and some do almost all of the above.  As for PCs, I suppose it depends on which time period you are talking about, as this changes with individual PCs, which really doesn't relate well to how good all the NPCs and VNPCs are.

[Anonymous]

Ok, it's me again. The Byn fanatic. I'm a bit confused, I must admit... It seems like, apparently, even the tiny noble houses are housing an army unimaginable destruction. This raises one little question... If each noble house has their own militia-sized group of expertly-trained guards... Then how can the Byn even exist?

Think about it. Every time Lord Fancy Pants has to go somewhere, he hires out the Byn. Sure, the OOC reason is to involve more players. But their must be an IC reason, otherwise the Byn would have no use and would go out of business.

Consider how much money a noble house has invested in their personal guards.  Why risk losing that investment of time, training and money sending them out into the wastes to hunt a single runaway mul when you can hire the Byn to do it for the cost of what one or two dead sergeants would be worth.

In the past the Byn were often hired to supplement noble house guards during particular trips/quests.  Cheap labour.

[aeshyw]

I think that Creeper's message reflects a few common misconceptions about the noble houses.  The noble houses are not 'small' by any means - especially Tor and the Upper Tier.  The amount of sheer money and power amassed by an Oash or Borsail is really mind-boggling in comparison with the squallor the rest of the world lives in. The VNPC forces they house are well-equipped, well-trained and constantly exercising and patrolling to earn their well-paid keep.  The fact that noble PCs have to recruit in town is a bit misleading, I think.  The opportunity to live as well as a noble elite probably has people clamoring among the virtual population.  Think of it - these men have lodging, clothing, good food and water and top pay.

The reason a noble might hire the Byn to go somewhere (and I think that its a misconception that they do every time - a trip without them might be kept quiet for valid security reasons) is quite simple - they are cheap, expendable and represent no investment on the part of the noble house. If Lord Fancypants wants to go explore the Secret Cove of the Ancient Fluffy Bunny - he might take a few of his own elite guard to stay close, but as for the rest, why risk the huge investment and time that goes into training house guard when you can just have a few suckers in brown abas play bait at the perimeter for the cost of a few lengths of silk?

[Swordsman]

AC: you seem to be saying that Nenyuk would be like almost at a total loss if they had to attack anyone. I'd agree that their defensive work would be better than their offensive, but on the other hand, we were talking (or at least I was) about overall quality in a 'straight out' fight, with no particular mission goals or terrain factors in mind except for 'kill the enemy, who is also trying to kill you.' If you gave Nenyuk guards nothing to defend, I expect they would do a very good job of defending themselves. I just can't imagine a House that deals in money paying money to anything less than very good guards (talking overall, not about specialty guards like h-gs), and IMHO good guards means guards who can think (or at least have leaders who can think), as well as having combat skills.

aeshyw: good general point on player misconceptions. It does get hard sometimes, though, when it seems like every second person is a Bynner and the noble guards are off somewhere practising ... well, something important.

Swordsman

[Thoughtful General]

People use the Byn because it exists.  

Any House worth its salt, in real life, would not use mercenaries unless it absolutely had to.  Mercenaries are stupid to use, when it comes right down to it, because they can (and will) change sides on the drop of a coin.  A professional standing army (or professional guard) that is loyal to your House is a million times better than using mercs.  Only organizations with no standing professional military force use mercenaries.

But, since this is a game - we play by game standards.  The Byn is a large PC based organization - therefore Houses are asked to involve them in what they do.  Almost every House leader I've ever spoken to OOCly has lamented the fact they "had" to use the Byn.  Naturally, they didn't actually _have_ to use the Byn, but they felt compelled to so the Byn would have an actual function.

Realistically, who hires mercenaries to do guard detail?  Talk about asking for dissaster.  Still, the Byn holds a good number of PCs, and because of this, it is nice to involve them in House missions.  Due to this we see the Byn involved in functions that House Forces would be doing - scouting, patrolling, escorting, etc.  Often the Byn has more PCs than the House force - so to augment the number of players in the mission, people hire Byn.  

Thinking about it, the situation for PC Houses is that they don't have access to a large standing force - sure the virtual force is there and all, but they can't access it.  Therefore, they use the Byn.

If all virtuals were alive and well, I doubt the Byn would see so much 'action.'  The Byn would probably be relegated to providing service to rich independant merchants, to being hired by other organizations with no standing forces, or being involved in extremely 'high risk' situations being used as fodder.  

As for the sizes of different Houses - who knows.  I wouldn't hazard a guess.  Maybe someone could ask the imms to pass that information along, but I suspect they wouldn't.  

[The Lonely Hunter]

I've tried to stay mostly out of this because for several reasons but I would like to briefly point something out.
The T'zai Byn doesnt just 'spar mornings and do chores evenings'. They have specialty units, advanced training, and usually only Runners do the chores while real members (trooper+) are furthering their training.

It also seems a lot of people are sayen "but the Byn only has X ammount of people". Many of you are wrong with your numbers for one, and as a second point...read the post before you reply please. Equal means the same ammount. =)

Many of you have brought up very good ideas, thank you. Again, I must say I agree with AC who, imo, brought up a lot of things noone else seemed to consider untill after her posts.

Thanks again for the replies =)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Why do you say noone works with Mercenaries? You are incorrect. The simple fact is that even in todays modern world, mercenaries obtain employment with druglords and small contries. In the 1600's, 17oo's and 1800's, mercenaries were used -all- the time to bolster army ranks, becuase mercenaries actually do have a code of honor.

If a company took a contract, and then betrayed that contract becuase someone else offered more money, then they lost reputation, and that was not good for future business. So they honored their contracts. Betrayal is foolish when you consider that your lively hood consists of public conception of your reputation.

So no. Mercenaries do -not- 'betray' you. They take the contract , serve it, and -then-, later, take another contract. That one might or might not be against you, but for the time that they are serving you, they are loyal. I also want to remind you all of this.

A mercenary unit is led by someone. That someone must be able to lead their troops. If they cannot, then their reputation is ruined again. Sure, mercenary troops are -generally- not required to be as clean and sweet as military and noble troops, but they are most certianly not inept, becuase if they were, then they would not be hired. And they -did- get hired.

So while I agree that the Byn may not be the strongest unit in the world, they will most certianly be hired, becuase they -are- ept enough to function in the roles they are hired for. And in fact, often, independents -do- hire the Byn, and I view this the main role of the mercenaries during peace. During wartime, they would be involved in battle, it is true, but they would not just 'switch' sides...they would just be on whoever side hired them first.

Venomz

[creeper386]

First of all, besides a small typo that shouldn't be there, my message shouldn't reflect anything that noble houses are small. The only numbers I mentioned were PERSONAL guards. Each noble would have his own personal guards that are hand picked from their army. In a larger house the nobles personal guard could probably be 100-200 men. Each noble having their own group, and when not out and about those groups would probably be the main force on the INSIDE of the compounds(In the buildings and such)

Now, not every house has a massive army, but for the most part, I bet all the noble houses, as well as the merchant houses, they well have an army. Just because you can run a large orginization without some sort of group of guards and offensive forces. It's just a common fact.

Now, that should read, "Just because you CAN'T run a large orginazation without some sort of group of guards..." And although I haven't reread the whole post thats the only place I can see any misconception. In my opinion most likely the noble houses would have an army at least as large as the Byn if not larger, but if a mission isn't secretive or anything, and is highly dangerous, no way would a noble house waist loyal and skilled men, they just hire the Byn.

And I think they'd mostly loose if not just for the better equipment and living conditions as I mentioned before. And like Lonely Hunter said there, numbers don't mean anything. I was just speaking about that because a few posts acted like the noble houses wouldn't have any sort of army. When most likely their personal guards alone could be considered a small army, on top of the more numbers that are used for guarding their compounds, and then any elite forces for certain things, and their main offensive force... I'd think it'd add up to be a fairly good sized army.

If memory serves me right, if the noble houses didn't have a good solid army there's a good chance that they wouldn't exist, I'm sure at some points there have been fighting between houses, and such, along with houses fighting in the wars between city states and all that... I beleive the house's armies would see at least as much action as the Byn except most of it would be fighting against people, getting new/protecting old prospects and endevers.

Creeper who is going to TRY and make alittle more cohersion to hold his posts together but isn't promising anything!

[Hot_Dancer]

I like the Byn's odds, there's no way a "Drunken and disorderly" unit could have a monopoly over the mercenary business in all of the Known World. They're highly trained, wealthy, established, disciplined, rugged and proven. They're the real deal but, how would they do against an equal force of Soh Lanah Kah? *woots*

[Anonymous]

I like the Byn's odds, there's no way a "Drunken and disorderly" unit could have a monopoly over the mercenary business in all of the Known World.

Being established, well-known and connected does not automatically mean they are a quality organization.  Perhaps they started out that way.

I have played and will continue to play in the Byn.  I don't hate them (I do struggle with their rigid structure though, as a player I'm a little bit flighty) and I've enjoyed my times with them.  That being said I *like* roleplaying that I'm a lazy, no-good, hapless runner/trooper looking to get by with as little effort as possible and that I'm not the only one.  And I really believe the inclusive nature of the Byn is not something that would create an environment where they churn out well-disciplined members like the militia, Tor or an Upper Tier noble house would.

They're highly trained, wealthy, established, disciplined, rugged and proven

I disagree on all accounts except rugged and established.  Obviously this is a perspective thing that an Imm would have the answer for.  But wealthy and disciplined...no way.  Maybe their PCs are more wealthy and highly trained than other PCs, but I don't think that's indicative of how things really are.

That may be true. I've seen people who've trained for years in martial arts get cold clocked or just plain get their ass beaten against a thug or two. And I don't think your point or mine has anything to do with this. (The part about hand to hand training, since I have yet to see two large forces on armageddon show up to duke it out.)

[Dan]

Its time for another war HRPT if you ask me.