assassins and listen

[Long lived Assassin]

I know its been said a million times in alot of other posts but since i haven't spoken my peace in well over an IC year and since i see no current threads i will start a new one.

I really think assassins should get listen at the start or soon after scan.Why?... because anyone truely wanting to play a good proffesional assassin knows they have a long and hard road ahead of them filled with OOC and IC hurdles.

For me its more of a playability reason too, every other guild gets their skills handed to them and are easy enough to train and but for assassins its such a challenge to train them in anything..you either need alot of patience and sometimes OOC knowledge. I guess this is part of the appeal for playing the guild for me but for the most part they suck for a really long time at being what they should be good at which is killing. Thank goodness its a little easier now but its still not easy. And after all that how many times does an assassin actually get to use -their- skills to actually kill someone 'professionally' once...twice if their lucky. You'd have an easier and funnier time using other guilds that are given at least a few  non violent skills.

i feel they need listen inorder for me to pass the time without me having to sacrifice its IC public profesion which is done through picking a subclass (Hunter, guard, or crafter, etc) while bard isn't bad, besides listen it doesn't hold that much appeal at least for me.
All in all assasin are a great guild but only become so after -alot- of time, love and patience...

[Kalden]

Not that hard to get listen.

[MorganChaos]

Yeah, I kinda agree here. Assassins are by FAR the weakest class and need to be strengthened significantly.

[Kalden]

Assassins are the strongest mundane class (in the city).  

[MorganChaos]

Assassins are the strongest mundane class.  

Lie. You're hallucinating.

The only thing I can possibly think of to motivate you to say this (other than a cleverly disguised joke) is that there's a secret to playing assassins that's not obvious, or indeed, in any way detectable without constant and prolonged concentration on the subject.

And if there is, that's also OOC information. :p

[ThirdEye]

I once had an assassin who had at least 1 single hit kills. They are too damn hard to put the effort into and not twink though. That said, I plan on playing one in the near future.....As posted above, listen isn't too hard to get.

[Akaramu]

Whoops.. double post  :oops:

[Akaramu]

None of my assassins ever got listen, not even my longest lived PC ever (17 days) with exceptional wisdom.  

[Ghost]

And after all that how many times does an assassin actually get to use -their- skills to actually kill someone 'professionally' once...twice if their lucky. You'd have an easier and funnier time using other guilds that are given at least a few non violent skills.

Actually no.  I played a long lived assassin and he used to get a lot of contracts.  More than you would anticipate.  It was my playtimes it sucked, I had to give breaks for weeks for RL stuff, otherwise, there would be much more contracts.  It is all about professionality.  If you are a professional, you are valuable.  Otherwise, you are no different than a dirty criminal.

Having said that, if you think you would have more fun with other guilds, I think you should not play an assassin.  You should not compare assassin and warrior, or ranger.  Each guild is on its own and has its own strengths and weaknesses.  It is a choice you should make at the start.

The only thing I can possibly think of to motivate you to say this (other than a cleverly disguised joke) is that there's a secret to playing assassins that's not obvious, or indeed, in any way detectable without constant and prolonged concentration on the subject.

No, there is no OOC secret.  It is all laid out perfectly.  Playing an assassin requires patience.  You start weak, you get better slowly.  Painfully.  So slow, it is actually a test of endurance and patience.  But when you get yourself to be near adequate, suddenly things start changing. It is a guild that sucks at the start, but rocks eventually.

An assassin can sneak behind you, spy on you, spot any physical threats or ambushes, can kill you right in the street and get away with it.  He can live in a city, where he is actively sought by militia and not get caught.  He has the best collection of skills to actually kill someone quickly, and effectively.  How good you are in those skills, or how much you suck in them, or how hard it is to get good at them, is a problem.  But it is your responsibility.  If you want to use the assassin guild to the full effect, you will have to feel the pain first.
By all means, assassins have a good collection of skills.

To the original poster:  The assassin skill tree is quite good, and if you think listen is needed at the start, I guess you should acquire it from a subclass.

[Cegar]

I kind of think Assassins should be a karma required class with better starting skills and more easy to aquire branches. As it stands, most guild assassins are someone's 3rd of 4th char and played as twinks in the 'rinth. I did that and I know many people who did that, and I still continue to see it. Being an assassin is not a mundane thing. They're much harder to play correctly than a Desert Elf, a Vivaduan. Hell, even a Half-Giant.

[ThirdEye]

I rarely have met somebody with the assassin guild outside of the 'rinth. That doesn't count for much though, I could have passed by the best assassin in Zalanthan history and not known it. Hell, I could've been followed by one and not had a clue about it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Assassins should be played like any other combat class. The only difference is in how they kill, and truthfully, it's not all that different. I had an assassin who used swords mainly, and could fuck you up with them, even without the skill.

Yes, it takes a while to become that backstabbing, asshole-tearing monster you think assassins should become, but ...

... when you're good, you're good.

I also think listen should come at the beginning of an assassin's career, but it's not nessessary to play the class. Next time, watch what skill makes it branch, and you'll realize that it's not terribly difficult to get.

[moab]

Ghost knows what the hell he is saying.  I think his word is the last on the subject. I've never seen a more highly skilled or better roleplayed assassin.

[Koala]

Ghost knows what the hell he is saying.  I think his word is the last on the subject. I've never seen a more highly skilled or better roleplayed assassin.

Seconded.

[Cavus]

Ghost knows what the hell he is saying.  I think his word is the last on the subject. I've never seen a more highly skilled or better roleplayed assassin.

+1

He was like a god with his assasin.

[moab]

Maybe we should get Ghost to write an "assassin's bible" like Nen's guide for thieves?

[mansa]

Maybe we should get Ghost to write an "assassin's bible" like Nen's guide for thieves?

[Ghost]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=142552#142552

I have had something in mind. I have some drafts written and it needs to be pieced together and then perhaps some more addition, and an imm's approval.  Does not look too tough to give it a shot.  But then again, I sometimes get so lazy it is not even funny.  So ...  I will have a look at it again.

[Hymwen]

First of all, posting on the GDB about branched skills that aren't in the guild's helpfile isn't a good idea. Second, I don't see how listen can be so important for you. What is it that you need the skill for so badly? And if you absolutely must have it to begin with, why don't you pick one of the subguilds that get it?

On the topic of assassins, I haven't tried one myself, but from what I've heard a lot of the frustration comes from having a full set of skills which are absolutely useless as you start out. Backstab won't hit the first 100 times, and once you do start to hit people, it'll take a while before it'll bring them to moderate condition. This takes many RL months to get up to a level where it's actually a deadly skill in itself. Poisoning is always troublesome to train up, same with throwing and so on. All a bitch to safely and realistically train up, and all useless without a good deal of  training. Except maybe throwing. Anyway, I think a lot of people create an assassin with the dream of becoming one-hit ninjas, with no in-between plan, and when it takes them 6 months to become that they burn out before they get past the first month. Or they die because they tried to do what their skills don't allow them in the beginning.

The thing about the assassin guild is that it's different not just because of its skills but because of how it works. You can take a ranger or warrior and be reasonably powerful right from the beginning. You can make a pick-pocket and do what your class does without failing all attempts for the first 5 play days. You can make a merchant and get employed (and be useful) as soon as you decide what you want to do. Assassins suck at pretty much everything from the beginning, and it takes a long time to get good at killing fast enough to be considered a menace. But once you've climbed that barrier and can start killing people in a backstab, throw a knife for 60 damage, be completely invisible and work poisons that could kill a mekillot, and even start doing things that you normally associate with other guilds, you'll see that there's a reason why it takes so long.

Um... but this wasn't really about assassins vs. other guilds, it was about listen. Be glad you actually do get the skill - I can't personally see what you desperately need it to begin for, but if it's so important to you, get it from a subguild. Otherwise work on branching it, live without it, or find a really good reason to special app an assassin who begins with it.

[moab]

Anyway, I think a lot of people create an assassin with the dream of becoming one-hit ninjas, with no in-between plan, and when it takes them 6 months to become that they burn out before they get past the first month. Or they die because they tried to do what their skills don't allow them in the beginning.

I think this is true of every guild - especially the ones requiring a great deal of patience.  Well put.

Can this quote be placed on ginka. "index.html"  

;-)

[Anonymous]

Second, I don't see how listen can be so important for you. What is it that you need the skill for so badly? And if you absolutely must have it to begin with, why don't you pick one of the subguilds that get it?

On the topic of assassins, I haven't tried one myself, but from what I've heard a lot of the frustration comes from having a full set of skills which are absolutely useless as you start out.

One useful fun skill at the start might be nice...Thats all i'm saying. Go make rangers sacrifice a crafter subclass profession if they want listen...we assassins have it hard enough.

While i have no doubt that Ghost was a good RPed assassin...I never want to see a guide on the subject...there is too much contraversy on some thing (backstab) and personally the best assassins are the people you thought were great RPed warriors, rangers or even merchants in the public eye. :wink:

[LoD]

Yay, Assassins!

Assassins can be one of the most powerful mundane classes in the game, and certainly -the- most powerful within their given environment.  As Hymwen notes, the issue seems to be most people see the guild name "assassin" and believe their character should be able a cold blooded killer right out of the box.

It is important to note that when you begin a new character, your guild choice doesn't define your profession anymore than your beginning clothing/coin defines your potential.  It is a start.  And I encourage everyone to form their backgrounds around the concept that their character is a novice in any of the skills included with their guild choice.

Boo, Unrealistic Backgrounds.

I imagine several people write assassin backgrounds like this:

Jorge is a skilled assassin.  He grew up in the 'rinth fighting street gangs for surivval and honing his dark arts.  His parents were killed at a young age by elves, whom he has sworn revenge on.  Jorge is a master of the knife, and was trained in the art of assassination by his master, Juan val Juan.  His master was recently killed by an elf gang, and he has vowed to avenge him while looking for employment.

Here are a few problems:

Jorge is a skilled assassin.[/i]

Jorge isn't a skilled anything in the eyes of the game.  He certainly isn't a skilled assassin.  What he starts with is a base understanding of a broad set of skills.  Regardless of the character's age, nothing is going to support the contention that this character can perform as a skilled assassin.

Jorge is a master of the knife...[/i]

Jorge isn't a master of anything except exaggeration.  When he picks up a knife in game, the code will assume he's not much better than a 14 year old stable boy.  Don't pidgeon hole yourself into feeling like you need to meet these expectations when you know the code won't support you.  This sets unrealistic goals for yourself and will often leave you feeling disappointed or frustrated.

Yay, Realistic Backgrounds!

Jorge might do better with a background that more accurately describes how the code will support his character's starting ability:

Jorge grew up on the tough streets of Allanak.  His parents abandoned him when he was very young, and he was forced to scrap it out in the 'rinth by dodging street gangs, and scavening for food.  After a few years, Jorge was caught stealing food by a man in the city who spared him, admiring his grit and determination.  Juan val Juan had just lost a son, and took Jorge in as his own.  He began to train Jorge in the family art of assassination, of which he was a quick study.  His training had only just started when his master went missing from a job in the elven quarter of the 'rinth.  Jorge now plans to continue his training, and seek revenge for his master's death.

This background doesn't assume Jorge knows anything more than the basics, which is true.  It doesn't boast that Jorge is good at anything, but explains why he has the skill set he has and how he learned them.  It sets the player (and character) up to have realistic expectations of what their character will be able to do once inside the game.

Patience is the way of any assassin.  The techniques are complex and precise, and their application leaves little room for error.  If you are frustrated at the time it takes to obtain a skill, then I might wonder if the guild wasn't a good fit for your play style.

-LoD

[Anonymous]

Thats good advice LoD but in all honesty i don't think it only just applies to assassins. Those bad ass commandos in the grey hide boots always make me chuckle.

[LoD]

Thats good advice LoD but in all honesty i don't think it only just applies to assassins. Those bad ass commandos in the grey hide boots always make me chuckle.

It absolutely doesn't apply just to assassins, but it's applicable to the conversation, which is discussing assassins.  Any character would do well to tailor their background in such a way that it acknowledges the source of their skill set, and provides a realistic expectation of coded ability.

And, yes, I have a special place in my heart for these people:

The tall, muscular man sits down at the bar.

With a lazy shift of his gaze, you say, in sirihish:
   "Mornin'..."

The tall, muscular man asks, in sirihish:
   "im looking for work"

Sliding a hand under his armpit for a scratch, you say, in sirihish:
   "Oh yeah?  What kind of work?"

The tall, muscular man says, in sirihish:
   "im an assassin"

Bushy brows rising for a group hug, you say, in sirihish:
   "But of course you are."

-LoD

[Halaster]

I personally think assassins are perfectly fine the way they are and see no reason to change them.

Hymwen and LoD are right, in that if you want to be a 'powerful' assassin, you have to be patient and stick with it.

[Tlaloc]

The tall, muscular man says, in sirihish:
"im an assassin"

Bushy brows rising for a group hug, you say, in sirihish:
"But of course you are."

Of course, in Tuluk, is entirelly possible to tell people you're an Assassin, and actively look for work as 'an assassin'.

[mansa]

The tall, muscular man says, in sirihish:
"im an assassin"

Bushy brows rising for a group hug, you say, in sirihish:
"But of course you are."

Of course, in Tuluk, is entirelly possible to tell people you're an Assassin, and actively look for work as 'an assassin'.

stop stealing my lines.

*shakes his fist*

[bloodfromstone]

I think there have been a lot of good points tossed around. I have played an assassin (poorly). The skill set is difficult to train. Even harder outside of the 'rinth, in some instances. Training up stealth outside of the 'rinth without being labelled a potential criminal for life is tricky. I, personally, find this to be one of the greatest appeals of the guild, rather than a big downfall. It makes becoming good that much more special. There might be a hundred PC assassins, but such a small percentage of them are truly good that a good assassin is very special. And sexy.

LoD's comment about history and roleplaying relative to your character's skill set is important to all guilds, but especially assassins. If you're trying to play a badass at day 1, you're not only going to look like an ass, but you're going to sit there feeling like you've broken character despite your best intentions (one of my least favorite feelings). Personally, I would like to see something added to the quickstart to let people know that they are going to be weak as kittens at the get-go and should plan a character to become something greater in game.

[jstorrie]

How to be a leet awesome assassin:

Step 1) Find a day job that in some way also allows you to slowly hone your killerizing skills.

Step 2) Wait about twenty days worth of playtime.

Step 3) Having got involved in more interesting things, forget all about wanting to just be a leet awesome assassin.

Step 4) Profit!

In all seriousness, it is not difficult to quickly train up an assassin without overt powergaming, but generally speaking your time is better used focusing on the actual goings-on of your PC's life. If he/she survives long enough, they'll get good at their skills anyway. The absolute greatest mistake nearly every new assassin player makes is trying to be a career killer right from the start. Keep in mind that:

Bynners and house guards and hunters will learn how to fight well as a part of their day-to-day lives.

Pickpockets, spies and those living in shady areas will learn how to sneak around as a part of their day-to-day lives.

Tavern sitters, aides and socialites will learn how to listen well and keep an eye on their surroundings as a part of their day-to-day lives.

Physicians, herbalists and gatherers will learn how to to brew poisons and their cures as a part of their day-to-day lives.

However: people who go around trying to shank NPCs will learn what a mantis head looks like. In fact, if you're looking to be an indiscriminate murderer the warrior guild may suit you much better.

[flurry]

First of all, talking about branched skills that aren't in the guild's helpfile is never a good idea.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I don't think skill trees should be discussed here.  It is sensitive info.   The OP may have a good point (I've felt similar frustration over branching another skill in another guild) but it's probably more effective to email the Imms.

[Armaddict]

All I've got to say...is that if you think assassins are weak, you've been playing too many templars/magickers/psionicists lately.

As everyone said, they start slow.  Within 10 days of play time, you're an artist.  Within 20, you're an all around badass.

Not to mention...assassins are not limited to a combat-related role.  I had a 30 day assassin that had a hand in countless deaths, all of them for profit.  He got in a total of four or five fights throughout his career.

Assassins have a -very- versatile skill tree.  Just don't play them like a warrior, and you'll be fine.