Hobo Signs: Are they Writing?

[Angela Christine]

I was recently reading about hobo signs, symbols hobos used to communicate with other hobos.  I was wondering if symbols like this would be considered illegal literacy in the cities?  It is definitely communicating information via symbols on surfaces, but that information is rudimentary and the symbols are not widely known.

Here are some examples of hobo signs:
http://www.bookofratings.com/hobosigns.html
http://www.bookofratings.com/hobosigns2.html
http://www.bookofratings.com/hobosigns3.


If you were a Templar, would you execute someone you saw using these?



Angela Christine

[Northlander]

I think I've seen marking similar to this in-game, and as a Templar I'd pass it by without notice unless I come upon someone with their tongue between their lips scribbling. If it was in the north and their forced answer was "this marks a safehouse for the Orange Thieves" I'd let it pass long as they were registered. In the south it's a much more fickle situation, I can't think of what the marks'd say that wouldn't end with recruitment or loss of fingers. "Friendly messages between us beggars about where's a good spot to beg" certainly wouldn't pass.

In other words: I wouldn't think it literacy unless there were several marks in one spot. Then the bud'd be nipped.

Be great to see this more though, thanks for bringing it up. The scribble code is fantastically scenebuilding.

[Hymwen]

Haha, the pictures and the comments are hilarious.

[SpyGuy]

Haha, the pictures and the comments are hilarious.

Isn't that all a joke?  I've never seen hobos using cryptic symbols.  Most in North America can read to some extent.

[Cegar]

But so can people who hobo's don't their signs to be read by. Hobo signs are very real.

[Dalmeth]

I think these sorts of things would fall under the lawkeeper's discretion.  If you don't like what they're doing with the signs, then you can charge them with literacy and burn'em.

Otherwise, you can just arrest them for graffiti or let them go on their way.

[Barzalene]

If I played a templar I would in fact see this as writing. The extent to which I would pursue it would have much to do with how much you (you being the pc I caught, a theoretical you, if you will) annoyed me, and how willing I could be made to believe that you didn't know it was writing.

[Angela Christine]

Isn't that all a joke?  I've never seen hobos using cryptic symbols.  Most in North America can read to some extent.

No, they are real.  They just aren't recent.  Hobo signs were used between the 1880s and WWII, particularily durring the Great Depression.  Literacy wasn't as common back then, and even if you were literate you might get a bad reaction if you simply wrote "kind lady lives here, tell a sad story to get food" on her fence.  You want to communicate with other hobos without tipping off the locals.  Now days many hobos use cell phones.   :?


http://www.angelfire.com/folk/famoustramp/signs.html



Angela Christine

[jcarter]

They're not writing any more than the picture of a mug above a tavern could be considered writing.

[Cegar]

They are abstract symbols used to represent much higher concepts than simply "Bar". A few squares and a circle meaning that someone nice lives in this house is much, MUCH more like writing than any shop sign.

[CosmicEgg]

Shop signs probably convey more. A mug above a tavern means that someone nice (arguably) runs an establishment here that sells liqour, ale and possibly food. You are likely to find people of many different sorts here. You are free to converse (within guidelines) in a generally expected atmosphere.

A needle and thread means, hey I can buy clothing here. I can probably get it tailored to fit as well.


All commoners know these signs.

A symbol with 6 scratches placed in odd angles is something that only a very few would know what it means. It may mean, "the thieves are welcome here", but only a select few understand what it means. The Templar likely doesn't know what it means, the nobles and others who can read don't know what it means. Most commoners don't know what it means. It's not any sort of known language, and how it can be seen as writing is beyond me. It's a drawing, a scribble.

You draw a picture of an elf getting impaled by a mul, sure it means something and conveys a message, but it's not writing by any means.

Just my 2 'sid.

[This is Cegar]

The point is that the symbols are not intuitive. They're a code]/i]. Writing is a code. It is very bad for Templars not to know what a symbol means. Very bad. Any time that symbols represent things in a counterintuitive and abstract way, then they become a language of sorts. Call it Thieve's Cant, call it Hobo Markings, it is still a language that is able to be written down.

[John]

IMO the only thing that's illegal is knowing how to write in sirihish, cavilish or tatlum (Merchant Houses get an exception on one of these of course). If you started writing books in <enter code here> then you might get in trouble, but simply having written things around the city on walls in somethying other then the above 3 languages wouldn't get you in trouble.

However having said that, a Templar can and will harrass anyone they want.

Unfortunately (IMO) PC Templars won't do anything until they see "this is written here in a language you don't understand." And then they'll come down on you like a ton of bricks.

[Angela Christine]

There is a line between a picture, which is a-ok, and a symbol, which can get you into trouble.  

The one that looks like a sketch of a train that means "good place to catch a train" would probably be ok, if there were any trains.  As Cegar mentions the less intuitive symbols could be more of a problem.

It might also matter where and how you used them.  If it was just one or two symbols scratched into the dirt or chalked on a wall,  they might be overlooked -- it's just scribbles, graffiti, bad art.  If you had a scroll case  or book with pages and pages of the these symbols all pressed together like writing it would probably get you into trouble even if it is no known language.  If you managed to incorperate the symbols into a sketch, they might pass entirely unnoticed by the law.



Angela Christine

[jcarter]

The point is that the symbols are not intuitive. They're a code]/i]. Writing is a code. It is very bad for Templars not to know what a symbol means. Very bad. Any time that symbols represent things in a counterintuitive and abstract way, then they become a language of sorts. Call it Thieve's Cant, call it Hobo Markings, it is still a language that is able to be written down.

The only reason why the symbols are "intuitive" is because we've learned what they mean and to recognize them. Someone who has never heard of the idea of putting a sign up with the drawing outside a shop and never seen a picture of a needle and thread will have absolutely no idea what the needle and thread means. It could mean that they sell needles and threads, or that they're a tailor, or it's actually rope on a big spindle, or so forth.

Furthermore, there's only certain things that can be drawn that appear as intuitive. Say there's hobo code for "owner is an asshole" (a message as simple as "we sell ale and food here"), you can draw a butt. But that butt can also mean that here's a good place to go to the bathroom. You're looking at the common symbols as simple because you're familiar with them, not because they're simple.

[Cegar]

I don't think you get the whole point of being intuitive. It is NATURAL for any Zalanthan or human to intrinsically understand what most shop symbols mean. There's a sword? Well, it's a weapon shop. Mug of ale? A bar. It is engrained from birth. It is INTUITIVE to know this. Knowing what a few boxes and lines are is NOT intuitive. It must be specifically explained what such a symbol means.

[jcarter]

I don't think you get the whole point of being intuitive. It is NATURAL for any Zalanthan or human to intrinsically understand what most shop symbols mean. There's a sword? Well, it's a weapon shop. Mug of ale? A bar. It is engrained from birth. It is INTUITIVE to know this. Knowing what a few boxes and lines are is NOT intuitive. It must be specifically explained what such a symbol means.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

There's nothing actually intuitive or "NATURAL" about what those symbols mean. You're not born with the knowledge of it, and you don't suddenly know what exactly it means when you hit a certain age. You've either asked someone what the signs outside the buildings meant, or you've discovered them on your own. It's not hard-coded into every Zalanthans DNA. Furthermore, there will always be signs that will be hard to get, such as the Trade Ministry. How can you possibly put up a single picture that explains "Trade Ministry"? You can't. Someone would either have to see the sign and know what the building does or be told. Hobo codes work in the same way: someone sees the sign and experiences it, or is told what it means.

[Saphreal]

This is my opinion, but I would say, yes, they are like written language.  Because they communicate a message with symbols, I could see them being considered writing; however, they do not serve to greatly increase the overall knowledge of the individual, which is the primary reason why commoners on Zalanthas are repressed from writing.  I could see the Templarate banning these signs because they spread valuable information, but not so much because they are a true form of graphic communication.

[Cegar]

I don't think you get the whole point of being intuitive. It is NATURAL for any Zalanthan or human to intrinsically understand what most shop symbols mean. There's a sword? Well, it's a weapon shop. Mug of ale? A bar. It is engrained from birth. It is INTUITIVE to know this. Knowing what a few boxes and lines are is NOT intuitive. It must be specifically explained what such a symbol means.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

There's nothing actually intuitive or "NATURAL" about what those symbols mean. You're not born with the knowledge of it, and you don't suddenly know what exactly it means when you hit a certain age. You've either asked someone what the signs outside the buildings meant, or you've discovered them on your own. It's not hard-coded into every Zalanthans DNA. Furthermore, there will always be signs that will be hard to get, such as the Trade Ministry. How can you possibly put up a single picture that explains "Trade Ministry"? You can't. Someone would either have to see the sign and know what the building does or be told. Hobo codes work in the same way: someone sees the sign and experiences it, or is told what it means.

If you lived your life without ever seeing a single blacksmith shop with a sword and shield on its door, but you knew what a blacksmith did and you know what a sword and shield were, would you not feel like a sword and shield would rightly mean that any shop with those on its door would sell... oh... I don't know, swords and shields? Hell, even if you DIDN'T know what a sword and a shield was, you would still know that any shop which had that on its door would probably sell those things. Same with a mug of frothy ale. It could mean a lot of things, but what does it feel like it means? Well, they probably ale. What about a building with two squares and some lines? What does it sell? Well, probably not squares and lines... This can be a logical process, but it can also be a process that is so engrained into people in an Earthlike society (and Zalanthas is a VERY Earthlike society) at a very, very early age. So engrained that it just becomes second nature to KNOW that whatever is on the door of a shop is usually sold there. Sure, there are some times when it comes to logic... maybe if you saw a gold coin. No one sells coins... must be a bank. That's not nearly as intuitive. Even more so those damn hobo symbols.

[bloodfromstone]

I think they would be considered writing by the law, but, in Zalanthas, I'm sure part of the idea would be that they would look like nothing more than simple, silly pictures or every day occurances. Maybe a 'rinthi leaves some bootprints in a funny shape in the dirt. At a glance, it's just footprints. To someone who is in the know, it actually means "rich drunk in bar" or something.

The problem would be trusting other players to overlook scribbles of things that would actually attract no attention. No one should start an investigation as to why there were some footprints outside the Barrel.

[path]

I could see it rousing suspicion, but I don't think it would be obviously any form of communication, and therefor could probably pass for quite some time, if not indefinately, under an unwatchful eye.

The commoners have been illiterate for quite a few generations now. Most vigilance or concern in that direction was probably turned elsewhere a while ago.

I'd say, burn them (publically of course) only if you caught one and torture revealed that the signs did indeed have some sort of secret meeting.