Re:Vivaduan Healing from Ask The Staff

[SpyGuy]

I get your drift but I still think you're wrong.  You're making a lot of assumptions about armor that I think are wrong.  One is that all armor has weak points, especially primitive armor.  It needs to so that you can move your limbs and so it isn't dead weight.  Moveover many of the beasts on Zalanthas I would assume -can- pierce armors.

A few simple ideas from a non-coder on how wound code could be more realistic:

1)  Have certain animals flagged No_Wound to allow them to not be able to inflict critical wounds on a player.  So no matter how bad you suck that jozhal or that tandu isn't going to get you wounded.  That bull duskhorn or that scrab, however, might.

2) Don't have scars coded in with the wound code.  I never said I supported that nor has anyone else.  Scars are and should always be optional.

3)  Have MANY options to heal wounds that both PCs can use or can buy from NPCs.

4) Have wounds only added if a character takes massive damage in one hit (30+ or so) or a stronger blow (15-20+) at poor health or below.  This would reflect the clear trauma of having been hit very hard in one blow or at lower health it could reflect the fact you've already taken a hard beating and your defenses are opened up for a more severe injury.

Cegar, you're really in my mind assuming a worst case scenario on all of this.  Just because you experienced what you felt was a bad draconian wound code on SoI (and several people have disagreed with you) doesn't mean it has to be that way on Arm.  I personally feel it would add much greater depth to the game and much more realism, as it stands now in combat I feel like I'm playing a H&S MUD, it has a simple arcade feel that isn't bad but definitely doesn't mirror the depth in the rest of the game and probably doesn't mirror the depth of what the combat code does behind the scenes.  I think we're not going to convince each other on this one and you're lucky, there definitely won't be any wound code until some coder really gets eager to try and implement one  :wink:

[Cegar]

Well, I still challenge you to try and stab through a 3 inch thick piece of hardwood, let alone bone. Can you imagine trying to slash an obsidian breastplate? It would not work.

This is kind of breaking off into a tangent, but a bone breastplate (as described in the game) covered the whole torso in bone. If damage is to be considered done to the flesh, then that means that animals and characters break armor or find its miniscule weakpoints more than 70% of the time. That just isn't logical. Armor does not break if something does 20 damage to you through it, and it probably isn't through a weak point. Wood, bone, chitin, and obsidian are incredibly strong materials and it takes an extreme force to break it. A low caliber round does not pierce through thick earth wood, why should a human wielding a scimitar?

My argument that code cannot reliably make a logical wound system. It would be cool, yes, but it would dictate RP to the point of being an extreme nuisance.

[Ayashah]

Ooops, sorry. I have been working on a patio and havent been on since I posted till today.  Glad to see others answered the question on what was SOI's wound code. I didnt mean an exact copy of SOI's code but that it would be nice if healers 'were' needs along with water mages.

[Nao]

This is kind of breaking off into a tangent, but a bone breastplate (as described in the game) covered the whole torso in bone.

There -have- to be spots or slits to open it though - you have to be able to take it on and off, so it yould have to be two parts and if it's not made specifically for THIS wearer it would have some space in between - bone doesn't bent or fit itself on the wearer.
Some kind of weak spot where damage would come through easily - and who says that broken ribs can't be serious damage? Might show up as bruises or whatever..

It's even worse with armguards or the like - If you wear all bone and chitin and obsidian, it's gonna be -very- heavy armor, and there's still gonna be unprotected spots at connecting places, you need to move your limbs after all so there needs to be some kind of joint. And unless all the armor is perfectly made o fit with one another there's gonna be some space at the shoulders, or hips, or the neck, where there's two pieces of armor coming together.

Soft leathers - very little protection. -Hardened leathers - again, they need -some- kinds of joints so you can move inside.

Fighters would specifically aim for those weak spots.

Besides, allt hose materials do break - bone is very brittle, and so is obsidian (why do weapons break but armor just gets used up...!?)

[Cegar]

Yeah, but they generally don't break when something hits you there. And I refuse to believe that a scrab consistently pokes through the very small leather joint on my SIDE while wearing a breastplate.

[Quirk]

Well, I still challenge you to try and stab through a 3 inch thick piece of hardwood, let alone bone. Can you imagine trying to slash an obsidian breastplate? It would not work.

I challenge you to wear a 3 inch thick hardwood breastplate.

Seriously. Real world "heavy" battlefield armour was a fraction of an inch thick. For armour to even be wearable, weight-wise, it has to be pretty thin all over.

And Zalanthan armour mostly doesn't have the density and malleability of metal. Armour would be that much more inefficient; any armour that would be light enough to hunt in would be even less effective than a corresponding Earth light armour, and would be up against beasts that are much more dangerous than most things you'd hunt on Earth, and have evolved to prey off giant insects with massive chitin exoskeletons. Feel free to bug any armour that's unrealistically thick.

Now, of course, we can quibble whether bone and wooden weapons would have enough oomph to do much damage even to hard wooden armours. This is just one of the unrealistic aspects of the game, I'm afraid. But attach a good solid stone axe-head to a wooden shaft, and you'll carve those armours apart.

And yes, another unrealistic aspect is that armour doesn't get used up faster when you get hit. This is mostly for playability purposes. I doubt you want to see this changed?

[Cegar]

This is such a derailment.

But wood is relatively light compared to steel. Bone and chitin even lighter. The only real problem of armor is the head, it isn't THAT heavy. I've worn a suit of full steel armor, and even that is only around 50 pounds. Easily doable by someone in shape.

[Quirk]

This is such a derailment.

But wood is relatively light compared to steel. Bone and chitin even lighter. The only real problem of armor is the head, it isn't THAT heavy. I've worn a suit of full steel armor, and even that is only around 50 pounds. Easily doable by someone in shape.

Yes. Wood is less dense than steel. It is, however, not so much less dense that wearing a three-inch thick piece of armour will not be extraordinarily heavy. It is also far easier to damage; it doesn't take a great deal of steel to thwart an axe-blow that would cut a great chunk out of a tree.

My point was that between the bulkiness and relative weight/strength of the wood, bone, etc, Zalanthan armour is worse than Earth armour. (Which is why humans on Earth used metal armour instead of wood or bone). It's not going to form any sort of unstoppable barrier to prevent damage getting through as you seem to be suggesting.

[Cegar]

Yeah. I've worn real wood armor. I've worn real steel armor. No, not larping. Yeah, I've moved around. It wasn't that heavy nor was it THAT hard to move around in. I could have swung an axe just fine.

Listen, I just dare you to try and cut down a hardwood tree with a stone axe. Now try an obsidian axe. Now try a bone axe. Now try a wood axe. NOW try a metal axe. See the difference?

Most materials would SHATTER on a piece of wood. Especially swords. What does penetrate would get stuck, most likely. I think you're really downplaying armor and its effectiveness. Not all strikes in combat are particularly hard or dead on, most would just glance off a piece of armor. Have you ever tried to hit someone with something while they were doing the same? It is fucking HARD to get a good shot on them. And it is HARD to aim for weak points in armor. Try it, it really, really is.

There was a long thread about RL armor use, you should search for it. Maybe I'll find it later. Anyway, people in full hard armors move around slowly and swing slowly. They take a lot of hits, but they barely feel those hits. They are tanks, but they are very slow. That is what Tuluki combat is described to be like, but it isn't like that at all. Usually I see them run around with two weapons just like EVERYONE ELSE IN THE GAME. The armor/combat code needs an overhaul, in my opinion. People also need to realize that hard armors really do deflect and cushion blows. They aren't just for show.

[Quirk]

Listen, I just dare you to try and cut down a hardwood tree with a stone axe. Now try an obsidian axe. Now try a bone axe. Now try a wood axe. NOW try a metal axe. See the difference?

People cut down trees with stone axes for millenia. Bone - probably not. That's another Zalanthan glitch. Hardened wood - I'm sceptical, but maybe.

Most materials would SHATTER on a piece of wood. Especially swords.

Well, yes. Again we're teetering on the edge of Zalanthan fantasy material science. Do you really think an obsidian longsword would stand up under its own weight? We just have to run with it. There aren't really any materials suitable for sword-making on Zalanthas.

Stone however has a long and glorious Earth history of cutting wood. The Maori used nephrite, a.k.a. jade for the purpose in their adzes. Europeans used flint axes and later basalt.

(This is swiftly becoming a silly argument, not because you're saying anything particularly wacky, but because the Arm world itself doesn't model the properties of bone and stone and wood in a realistic way).

What does penetrate would get stuck, most likely. I think you're really downplaying armor and its effectiveness.

This isn't metal armour. This is wooden armour, which we have relatively little data on since nobody in Earth history thought it was worth using - even before the Bronze age they seem to have settled for treated hides. I'd be tempted to speculate that wood's tendency to split along the grain is to blame, but as I say I don't really have a lot of data here. However, just in shaping it round a human form you're going to structurally compromise it. Additionally, as you increase the thickness, you're going to mess with people's centre of gravity and hence make it harder for them to balance.

There was a long thread about RL armor use, you should search for it. Maybe I'll find it later. Anyway, people in full hard armors move around slowly and swing slowly. They take a lot of hits, but they barely feel those hits. They are tanks, but they are very slow.

I'd be interested in a link. I'm really made very dubious by the "move around slowly and swing slowly" - it seems to me to partake of the "ancient weapons were so heavy!" misconception (most medieval swords actually only weighed in at a couple of kilos: http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm ). I'm pretty certain if you were swinging slowly, you wouldn't be able to penetrate the steel of the later medieval armours.

That is what Tuluki combat is described to be like, but it isn't like that at all. Usually I see them run around with two weapons just like EVERYONE ELSE IN THE GAME. The armor/combat code needs an overhaul, in my opinion. People also need to realize that hard armors really do deflect and cushion blows. They aren't just for show.

Given that the kind of (metal) heavy armours you're speaking of didn't become popular until comparatively very late in Earth history, was mainly restricted in use to temperate climates, and then had a fairly short heyday before projectile weapons made them an anachronism, I'd be tempted to assume that most Zalanthan armour wouldn't be anything like as heavy. Additional weight is lent to this by Zalanthas being in a technological era which predates invention of the stirrup and longbow (lack of the stirrup being a major reason why mounted combat sucks) - it's not at a point analogous to Earth history where people wore truly heavy armours.

It's a desert world. Anyone who is wearing much more than plated leather armour probably isn't having to travel in it, or even go outside much. People may realise that heavy, hard armours do protect them, but also recognise that the speed trade-off makes them non-ideal for hunting.

[Cegar]

1. Yes, people cut down trees with stone axes... after hundreds of swings. You don't get the luxury of hundreds of uninterrupted, perfect swings in combat (or you shouldn't, anyway).


2. Agreed. But again, cutting down trees and cutting armor are different animals.

3. You can't structurally compromise wood like that. You carve it into another shape, it isn't as sturdy, but wood isn't prone to shatter at low velocities. Again, bullets don't shatter thick, dense wood or penetrate it well.

4. http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11902&highlight=armor+armour+larp

Swinging slowly is a bad term. You wouldn't be very agile in your swinging. It is steady, hard to change direction/target. The velocity isn't slow.

5. I wasn't speaking of metal armors. I'm speaking of Zalanthan armors.

6. Zalanthas is hot, yes. Combat in a hot environment is easily doable for short periods of time, which is what people in heavy armors would do. I wrestle in 110+ degree heat with 100% humidity constantly. Considering that I am a weak Earthling and that wrestling taxes the body more (in terms of stamina) than "sparring" or combat (sometimes), then I am sure conditioned Zalanthans can deal with it.

The point I am trying to make is not that everyone should use heavy armors, but that they should make a noticeble difference, both positive and negative. As it stands, there isn't much to set them apart from sandcloth.

[Quirk]

1. Yes, people cut down trees with stone axes... after hundreds of swings. You don't get the luxury of hundreds of uninterrupted, perfect swings in combat (or you shouldn't, anyway).

That's quite true. On the other hand, if your wood-shaping utensils are that crappy, wooden armour should cost a hell of a lot more than it does. Imagine how long it would take to make...

3. You can't structurally compromise wood like that. You carve it into another shape, it isn't as sturdy, but wood isn't prone to shatter at low velocities. Again, bullets don't shatter thick, dense wood or penetrate it well.

Shatter, no. Split - yes. Also, since it's relatively inelastic, it is more prone to break than bend - consider the old party trick where people break a board with a downwards punch or chop parallel to the grain. Moreover, if you carve wood into a curved shape rather than bending it (and the latter is obviously particularly hard to do with thick wood), you expose it to being struck from angles that will increase the chance of it splitting.

And the thicker and denser the wood, the greater the weight problem and the thinner it'll have to be.

5. I wasn't speaking of metal armors. I'm speaking of Zalanthan armors.

Which we've got remarkably little data on, except that they're made from materials which we Earthlings thought were too crap to use as armour.

6. Zalanthas is hot, yes. Combat in a hot environment is easily doable for short periods of time, which is what people in heavy armors would do. I wrestle in 110+ degree heat with 100% humidity constantly. Considering that I am a weak Earthling and that wrestling taxes the body more (in terms of stamina) than "sparring" or combat (sometimes), then I am sure conditioned Zalanthans can deal with it.

Combat's less of a problem than travelling for long distances under the hot sun, with the real possibility of running into something large and nasty enough to make a Kodiak bear look like a housecat and having to scarper fast. You're lugging that armour around with you all day, unless you're taking time out to change into it before combat and changing back after.

Hunters historically tended not to employ heavy armour, after all. Mobility seems to have been more important than protection.

Also: good to hear you're a wrestler. I'm a judo/BJJ guy myself. I hear you on the whole taxing-the-body thing...

The point I am trying to make is not that everyone should use heavy armors, but that they should make a noticeble difference, both positive and negative. As it stands, there isn't much to set them apart from sandcloth.

Okay, I'm pretty much in agreement there. I'd like to see the advantages and disadvantages more manifest too. It's got to be recognised though that the current behaviour of Zalanthan weaponry and armour is nonsensical from a real world materials viewpoint, and that fixing that would be a really, really huge job.

[Cegar]

http://www.sdfwa.org/DIW/2001/images/large/twa2001.jpg

[Quirk]

San Diego Fine Woodworking Society, Design In Wood Exhibition 2001?

Looks pretty. Not sure it would offer much protection beyond boiled leather (if that), but it's a very nice-looking piece.

[Angela Christine]

You can overcome the grain problem in wood by using plywood, also known as laminated wood.  Thin layers of wood glued together are stronger and more stable than a single thick layer of wood.  The technique was known to ancient peoples and used for shields and bows, but I don't know if anyone used it for armor.  If metal was available it would probably be easier to work with than plywood.


Angela Christine

[Synthesis]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I believe someone is taking the point of view that wearing heavy armour and using a shield doesn't really have much of a benefit (or at least not as much of a benefit as it should give).

If you honestly think that heavy armours don't confer much benefit, then you haven't been fighting tough enough opponents.  Good armour -greatly- reduces the amount of damage you take, and shields (with a good shield use skill) make you -much- more difficult to hit.  Sure, you might still be getting pinched "very hard" by a scrab...but if you weren't wearing that obsidian breastplate, it might've been a very serious wound.

As far as shields go, if you have a good shield use skill and good agility, you become practically invulnerable behind a good shield.  Even if you've never used a shield, the difference in defensive capability is immediately noticeable.

Sure, there are pros and cons, as with anything, but if you have the strength to use it and the money to buy it, the pros of shields and heavy armour -vastly- outweigh the cons, in my (drawn from years of experience and dozens of combat-oriented characters) opinion.