Re:Vivaduan Healing from Ask The Staff

[Ayashah]

Just dropping a quick note on this. I do think its up to interpretation but maybe on the level of skill/extent of injury.  I had a pc fall from a cliff down 4 or 5 rooms and live......barely. (This is from 4-5 yrs ago so should be safe to say as it really doesnt give away IC info)

A Vivaduan was brought in and pcs 'straightened' my pc out. The 'healing' took me to full hps but then I got an imm send from Savak saying I would have a permanent limp from then on out. (Thanks again, Savak, for trusting me NOT to use climb, sneak, etc instead of removing those skills) So I went about my way rp'ng a permanent limp. It really affected my character and developed in a way I didnt think she would go.

Just food for thought.

Truthfully, I would LOVE to see a wound code like SOI on ARM where it makes physicians and healers necessary.

[moab]

Could you explain the wound code on SOI?

[Cegar]

The wound code on SOI is a very horrible, horrible, terrible, awful thing. In SOI, you can be attacked by a garter snake and suffer debilitating wounds that literally take an RL week to heal. Basically, it limits roleplay by forcing you to become wounded if you ever get more than tiny scratch and then you have to get it healed, or else you're gain HP back at a rate slower than the rate at which THC leaves the body. So, instead of being able to roleplay how wounded you are based on your logical thought process, it subjects you to limited and unflexible code.

[Anonymous]

Such a system could be tweaked, but I certainly think it would add something to the game.

Key issues would be:

[list=]differentiating between wounds from small or insignificant opponents vs. large and significant ones. (also sparring injuries - if such should exist)[/list]
[list=]differentiating between stabbing, piercing, blunt weapon attacks[/list]
[list=]making it occur only for very serious wounds - 15% chance? 5% chance? 1% chance?[/list]
[list=]deciding which types are applicable for "healers" to heal versus mages, and if any are permanent regardless[/list]
[/list]

This would be fairly complicated to code. But I imagine it could be neat to have people think a little more conscientiously about the results of their lifestyles and the long-term impacts of incautious acts of violence.

[Cegar]

As long as it doesn't get to the point where if you're attacked by a little bird, you're out of commission for an RL week. The main problem I have is the code differentiating between minor injuries and major injuries. It is notoriously bad at that in SOI and pretty much would be here too. You'de get a half giant who was clawed by a raptor (losing 20 health) with the code acting like he has one foot in the grave. There are many other unforseeable situations where a code like this would be a serious disadvantage. I'm a proponent of leaving it up to the PC, because hopefully they'll be realistic about it.

[Nao]

As long as it doesn't get to the point where if you're attacked by a little bird, you're out of commission for an RL week. The main problem I have is the code differentiating between minor injuries and major injuries. It is notoriously bad at that in SOI and pretty much would be here too. You'de get a half giant who was clawed by a raptor (losing 20 health) with the code acting like he has one foot in the grave. There are many other unforseeable situations where a code like this would be a serious disadvantage. I'm a proponent of leaving it up to the PC, because hopefully they'll be realistic about it.

I've never gotten there - more than minor or small cuts from a bird or something similar.

The wounds system there is actually quite nifty - it's visible how large the wopund is and what kind - so you can guess what made it, too. Bites, bruises, gashes...

You don't need a healer in most cases, UNLESS the wound becomes infected - that's coded, too, and a healer can help.

[Cegar]

Well, last time I played there my hunter fought a very small snake...

And he damn near died, and still had under half HP after three RL days.

It was ridiculous, and I'd never want to see something SO restrictive anywhere near Arm.

That said, I really did like the fact that you could see injuries and see damage on a body, and I think that something like THAT would really be beneficial to the game.

[Bebop]

Hrm,  I really don't like the idea of a wound code on Armageddon.  The thing is that we have skills and sometimes you are going to fail at climbing and fall, you can't RP losing a limb every time a tembo or a bahamet codedly whacks you in passing.  Being a hunter type character you are going to get banged up alot and sometimes fights will take an unrealistic long time.  Now I don't think there is anything wrong with the combat code.  I like how it is and understand that as a game this is how it has to be in order to determine a winner and eventually get better.

My point is that I don't think there needs to be any kind of wound code and that wounds need to be left to interpretation except possibly in situations like the OP described.  As far as SOI goes it's not perma death and I don't even think the entire thing is RP required therefore it is irrelevant to Arm discussion.  I personally can't stand SOI myself - but then again I haven't found a MUD I like other than this one. ^_^

[Cegar]

Actually, it is permadeath and RPI/Required.

[moab]

As long as it doesn't get to the point where if you're attacked by a little bird, you're out of commission for an RL week.

I love telling people how I died to a songbird once.

It was a gruesome death, indeed!

I even got a message from San - first death by sparrow!

LOL

[Cegar]

Crap, sorry. Wrong thread, but it is still fairly relevent, so I'll leave it unless an imm wishes otherwise.




I've chipped the bone on my shins/legs so many times... Running into bleachers, stairs, rocks, etc. Pretty much the same as getting whacked in the leg with a blunted, light wooden sword a few times. It hurts... it hurts very bad. Sometimes it'll make you a bit woozy, but generally it goes away. Sparring in wrestling, I get a lot of nasty bruises, sprains, tears, etc. I've had blood vessels burst in my arm resulting in a giant 2 inch lump that made my entire arm purple. Those sorts of things hurt, but they are not debilitating. They're what normally will occur in sparring, and they can be fought through (especially considering the physical toughness of Zalanthians).

As far as the gruesome stuff, having surgery was a total bitch. This is abdominal surgery mind you (appendectomy, my appendix was located near my kidney, in the wrong place  :shock: ) with full anesthesia. In the first few days, it was a chore just getting up or laying down, especially walking. Though this is partially due to the anesthesia, a lot of it was from the injury/surgery itself. I slept. A lot. Often for stretches of 12-15 hours at a time, being awake for around 5-8 hours. That period lasted for a week, maybe more. After that, I could walk around fairly well, though I was still physically week. After about a month I was fairly recovered. After less than four months, I was wrestling again.

Now, there are a lot of differences between modern surgery and combat injuries. Surgery is clean, improved stitches/glues to mend damage, pain relievers, etc. However, surgery also is a huge tax on the body. It displaces organs, causes the immune system to freak out, causes internal damage... a flesh wound (most combat injuries ARE flesh wounds, otherwise you'de be dripping intestines) on the other hand will not mess with your internal organs. Sure, it'll be messy and there will be a lot of blood, but it will likely only be a flesh wound. It will heal more quickly and you will be able to get back to fighting trim more quickly. Especially since most weapons (bone, wood) would not cause the tremendous, gaping wounds that metal weapons cause. Obsidian/stone/glass are another story, however.

I imagine most damage would be tissue and muscle damage, with the most serious non-fatal injuries being to deep muscle tissue, tendons, and ligaments. However, in animal attacks, that usually only occurs when an animal has a victim on the ground, unless you happen to be fighting something with razor-sharp claws.

To sum things up, I'll make a chart of what I think:

Lacerations:

Cut (any length, less than 1/8th of an inch deep) a day to two days to close and heal up (wont need stitches). Can still fight if needed.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off less than 10% of total HP
-Generally wont leave a scar.

Small gash (2-5 inches long, 1/8 - 1/3 of an inch deep) - a few days to one week to close and heal up (stitches may be required) depending on location.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off 15-20% of total HP.
-May or may not leave a scar.

Large, deep gash (5+ inches in length, 1/3 - 2/3 of an inch deep) - a week at least to close and heal up (almost always with stitches) depending on location and probably another week or two in order to truly fight again.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off 20-30% of total HP.
-Will generally leave a scar.

Nasty wound (longer than 3 inches, over 3/4 of an inch deep) - two weeks to heal up at least (stitches or something similar will be required) and an additional two weeks + to fight again. May be lower if it occurs on an appendage, as that appendage can simply not be used/bandaged up. Will take a full recovery period if it is on the torso.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off 30-45% of total HP, generally.
-Will almost always leave a scar.

Mortal wound (longer than 4 inches, puncture through bone/amputation or puncture of internal organs) - several weeks (stitches + some sort of skilled physician or magick almost definitely required) and more to recover. This kind of injury will make your character think twice about fighting again, most likely. These are horrible and brutal. Severed limbs, punctured lungs, et cetera. Could include falling off of a huge cliff (larger than the shield wall, a cliff that will put you into - hp).
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off >60% of total HP, generally.
-Will leave horrible, nasty, disgusting battle scars.

All damage done to the body will likely be higher with heavier weapons or extremely sharp weapons (obsidian warswords, stone swords, etc) and less with lighter, smaller, or duller weapons (wooden broadswords, flimsy bone swords). Take into account serration and blade style as well. This also works with axes.

Puncture wounds:

Shallow puncture (under 3/4 of an inch across, under 1 inch deep) a few days of heal/recovery time (may require stitches). Generally a very minor injury on an extremitie, with increasing severity on the abdomen/chest/groin :shock: Generally the types of wounds that small knifes/daggers will inflict.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off <10% of total HP
-May or may not leave a scar

Deep puncture (over 1 inch across, over 1 inch deep) possibly longer than a week (stitches required). Limited use of the affected limb. Minor sinew/muscle damage. Recovery will be longer/more painful if the damage occured in the torso. These are generally the wounds that light spears/shortswords and some large longknives will inflict.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off 10-20% of total HP
-May of may not leave a scar

Stab wound (over 1 inch across, over 1.5 inches deep) definitely over a week (stiches required). Very limited use of the affected limb, possible major sinew/muscle damage. If on the torso, recovery will be significantly more difficult. These are the types of wounds that are caused by large spears/pikes or skilled backstabs. May also occur from a shortsword. Also common from antler gores or pincers.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off 20-35% of total HP
-Will almost definitely leave a scar

Stab wounds II (over 1 inch across, over 2 inches deep) a few weeks to recover. Almost definite tendon/ligament/muscle damage. Possible organ damage is in the torso. These are caused by serious strikes from shortswords, spears, etc.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off 40-60% of total HP.
-Will leave a scar

Mortal stab wounds (over 1 inch across, over three inches deep) a long time to recover. Definite tendon/organ damage. Caused by extreme backstabs, spear hits, etc. These, again, will do horrible things to the body and cause probable mental damage.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off >60% of total HP.
-Will leave a scar
-Will almost surely require magical help or a skilled physician

When wearing hard armors (shell, chitin, obsidian, wood) the damage done from pierces should be ignored, unless you happen to feel like RPing that it hit a weak point. Instead, I would treat it as a soft tissue injury, non-serious and not requiring lengthy recovery time. If hit in a soft armor, the damage will be slightly less, but almost the same as if naked. The damage recovery will remain fairly consistent for materials, possibly more for jagged or triangular blades.

Bludgeons

Bruise (a small bruise/soft tissue injury) very non-serious. Won't require medical attention. These are often caused by softer hits to armors, medium hits from sparring, and soft hits from blunt force. Also possible from extremely rough hand to hand hits and kicks. May be serious if caused to the head/neck.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off <10% HP or hits to hard armors.
-No scar.

Severe bruise (a large bruise/soft tissue injury) non-serious, but extremely painful. One will be able to fight/train through it, but it would be very uncomfortable. The area will be sore for a week or two with possible strength/dexterity/agility loss in the area. These may be bruised bones, hard blugdeons, or severe blunt force trauma to extremities. May be serious if on the torso/head/neck. Generally caused by very strong hits to hard armors, extremely hard sparring hits, and hard blunt force trauma. Could cause a broken ribcage, relatively minor injury.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off 10-25% HP or very hard hits to armors
-Generally no scar

Dangerous bruise (a very large and deep bruise) possibly serious but not life threatening. Only exception is on the head/neck area. The affected limb will be out of commission for likely a week or more. Medical attention may not be necessary, but the damage will cause a great deal of pain. Bones may not be broken, but they could be chipped, bruised, or cracked. Generally caused by very strong hits from medium weight clubs or half-giant-like smacks to armor.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off 25-40% HP
-May break the skin - may scar

Broken bone (caused by blunt force trauma) serious injury. Will take a few weeks and immobilization to get even limited use of the limb. May take several more weeks to be able to fight again. This may or may not be a compound fracture. This will need some sort of medical attention and will generally be caused by great falls or powerful blunt force trauma.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off 40-60% HP
-May leave a scar if it entails a compound fracture

Shattered bone (caused by blunt force trauma) very, very serious injury. Can be fatal. This will take over a month (possibly over a year) to heal and may likely cause permanent damage. Magical intervention will often be needed, as shattered bones cannot be fixed otherwise. This will occur from incredibly rough blows (i.e. a wound from a half-giant which does around 70 damage to your arm) or possibly incredibly high falls.
-Would be inflicted by hits that take off >60% HP
-Likely no scarring, but deformation/permanent handicap is very possible

Armor will probably not protect from blunt forces, but generally contusions are not serious to limbs unless bones are broken. This is reflected by the code in that blunt weapons rarely do much damage unless it is inflicted to the head/neck/body.

Again, this is just a very rough guide. You must always take into account the type of weapon, it's composition, who is wielding it, what their intent is (is this a tournament? a fight to the death? an angry animal?) and what kind of armor you are wearing. Generally, a blow to armor wich may deal over thirty points of damage will not cause injury in my mind. Your obsidian breastplate is still intact, so how would the blow cut your skin? It wouldn't. That's not to say that it won't hurt like hell though. I always keep in mind that HP is a set of numbers that go down untill you pass out from physical stresses. It doesn't ALWAYS mean that you're about to die. It could mean that your body has gone into shock from pain. However, taking 70 damage to the body from a cleaver-wielding mul while only wearing sandcloth should debilitate you.

[Quirk]

The wound code on SOI is a very horrible, horrible, terrible, awful thing. In SOI, you can be attacked by a garter snake and suffer debilitating wounds that literally take an RL week to heal.

If this is the case, it's because Traithe has fucked up the combat code. (He's a good guy, but he had some odd ways of "balancing" damage to get it to the harshness he wanted that tended to make light wounds more dangerous than necessary).

The "SOI" wounds code was originally developed for Harshlands when Traithe was coder; I was the coder after him and took it on (half-finished)  after he left. I can't remember if I mailed Traithe my version or not or whether he finished the code he wrote himself. So I'm going to make the claim to be one of the two most qualified people to speak on this one...

If you take a 20 HP hit, yep, it's going to take a little while to heal. You don't just bounce back from a serious blow that takes off a quarter of your health in one fell swoop. Minor injuries however should heal fast - i.e. from small creatures, sparring, etc - before the day's end. I had offline healing in, so while you were away you were healing too.

Possible issues include a) implementation of "critical" hits not resulting in the small bird problem, and b) availability of people with healing skills to treat those wounds. Basically, it would depend on whether the combat code was compatible or not.

Bebop: the code was actually designed to improve players' RP, as some players on Harshlands would go out and fight dangerous creatures until low on health, then flee and heal and never bother to RP it. Much like I imagine happens on occasion on Arm. Healing was perhaps made a little slower than absolutely necessary because we had a lot of "doctor" PCs on Harshlands at the time. (And yes, as someone already stated, Harshlands and SoI are both RPI permadeath muds).

[Kalden]

Cegar grossly exaggerates the severity of wounds you usually receive as well as the time it takes for a wound to heal on SoI. Heh.

I dunno, maybe he was fighting some sorta poisonous anaconda. If you don't have armor on SoI, you do receive major wounds pretty easily, but even leather armor changes that entirely.

[Cegar]

No, I wasn't Kalden. I really wasn't.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I will never support any sort of permanent injury code until the vestrics stop mortally wounding my characters.

[Lizzie]

I haven't seen the combat system at work in Arm yet, only the brawl system as an observer. If combat is more fast-paced than brawl I think it would be great to add some kind of wound code. When the screen scroll is flying it can be hard to remember where you got hit, and which body part you need to RP as hurting the most and needing the most care. All you have to go by is your HP which doesn't tell you anything except you're not doing so hot.

If something like the SoI code was implemented it wouldn't have to be the exact same thing. I remember one of my chars there ending up with a gangrened leg and nearly dead because she fell down a height one day and I didn't log back in for a RL week. I don't like the severety imposed on players in SoI. It's a little too realistic and not much fun. But I do like the idea of it as a general thing.

So like, the code might consider a few things: If a hit took more than x% of max health, then it would show up as a wound that needs attention. If multiple hits to the same body part results in more than x% of max health, they'd show up as "cuts and abrasions" which would heal by themselves if not tended. A critical strike would result in a serious wound requiring immediate (or near immediate) attention, either by "tending" it with a bandage to keep you from bleeding to death until you can find a physician to provide better care, or with magick.

And I like the possibility of bleeding to death. If you take a sharp deep gash to the chest, you shouldn't be able to just rest it off, even if it only took 30 hps out of 100. It _should_ need some kind of care, even if it's a temporary measure, until it can be better tended to in relative safety. Might give sand more practical use, in a primitive way. Pack the wound with sand which will hurt like hell but will keep you from raining blood all over the dunes until you can get home. Leaves would work too, if the room is described as having any. Or even cactus could be turned into a mushy pulp to serve the same purpose.

Anyway. I like the idea of coded wounds, if it's done in a way to support the RP and promote the idea of healers/physicians/magickers being of greater use to the IC community.

L. Stanson

[Ghost]

I would not support anymore realistic wound code or any permanent injury code, unless we first get an automated healing code from NPC vivaduans/NPC physicians.

[Quirk]

I would not support anymore realistic wound code or any permanent injury code, unless we first get an automated healing code from NPC vivaduans/NPC physicians.

I'm tempted to agree. A couple more things:

Sparring half-giants. It's enough of a problem now if they land a hit. But with a more realistic wounds code, you'd have to face up to the probability that that one swing of theirs broke ribs and their sparring partner will have to spend a signfiicant amount of time healing. If it takes significantly more time to heal from sparring someone who hits really, really hard, then people will try to find ways to avoid sparring with the very strong.

The infection code tends in my experience to lead to player dissatisfaction. I experimented with it, but turned it off in the end when I was working with it on Harshlands.

On the other hand, the bleeding from significant injuries continuing until you bandage them (any character can do this) is pretty cool. It would work even better if merged with Arm's tracking code... you could follow a trail of blood.

On the whole though, ways to get critically hit on Arm are probably rather more numerous, and if the wounds code was ported over directly, I think it would make hunting a lot less viable. There are too many potential repercussions on the game for me to wholeheartedly endorse it.

[Malken]

I remember a bleeding code here on Armageddon where you started bleeding after going down under a certain amount of health.. You were pretty much doomed if you'd start going under, say, 30 health, and couldn't find anyone to bandage you. I don't think it ever picked up and was probably disabled soon after.

[Nao]

I would not support anymore realistic wound code or any permanent injury code, unless we first get an automated healing code from NPC vivaduans/NPC physicians.

More realistic could also mean wound types/severities and locations implemented, maybe make more severe wounds heal a bit slower, substituting the current 'you have to sleep it off'-code.

[SpyGuy]

I am wholeheartedly a supporter of a balanced but realistic approach to adding detailed wound codes in Armageddon.  I don't support permanent injuries in any way, I feel those can be roleplayed by players just fine, enforced by staff if needed in some situations, and overall would decrease playability.  But any sort of wounds that might last a few RL days in the worst case would be amazing.  The potential for this is amazing:

1)  Wound types based on location.  Get hit in the hands and lose some offense ability, lose some from your max stun for a few days if you have a lingering head wound, increased movement lag if you have a broken leg.

2)  Be able to tell what exactly killed a corpse by looking over their injuries.

3)  A greater demand for PC physicians, possibly leading to an expansion of code to not just be simple bandages but also include salves for infection, splints for broken legs, etc.

4)  Being able to know by typing score exactly what injuries to RP having.

Some people say this will hurt RP, I say they're making claims that have no basis.  This adds detail to RP by giving a coded basis for your wounds.  No, a tiny snake shouldn't be causing massive head trauma so I believe code would need to be balanced so only serious hits mattered.  But in all honesty I have a confession, I'm really bad about RPing wounds with most characters.  Because to me minor injuries (which is what I'd expect to see most from a wounds code) often get lost in the back of my head well I'm RPing.  That gash I took on the head from gith?  Yeah I'll forget about that since it's already healed by the time I'm fighting the tembo near Tuluk.  It's a part of my RP that could use work and having a code that just reminded me of what exactly has damaged my PC seriously, even if it didn't have coded effects, would help me to realistically RP that type of wound.

It's easy to have wounds get lost when you're trying to keep doing fun stuff in game and staying active.  A balanced wound code could allow players to stay active after all but serious wounds (ie. when you drop into negative hp) but still have their characters wounds codedly reinforced and affecting the gameworld.

[Cegar]

The way the current system works, if you get hit in the hands while wearing diamond encrusted gloves and they don't block the hit, you still take a shitton of damage. More than what would be logical.

Game enforced wounds limit roleplay, because often times the system is not logical nor realistic. Am I going to roleplay a huge gash on my chest if I take 20 damage from a body shit? While wearing a mekillot bone breastplate? No. No I am not. Because it doesn't make ANY sense. Sure, it may hurt like hell and I might be knocked out from the pain/force, but I wouldn't be TRULY injured except for say MAYBE a broken rib or three.

Quite simply, the combat system is flawed, and logical human beings need to recognize that and roleplay realistically. I think it is wrong and limiting for CODE to enforce and dictate wound roleplay.

[Malken]

What about magick spells that may, allegedly, take a big chunk of health out of you in exchange of certain bonuses and or curses? I wouldn't want to be walking around with something that would say.. "This man looks very pale." People would start accusing others with missing health points with no obvious wounds of being magickers.

[SpyGuy]

Cegar, we don't know exactly how the combat system on Arm works.  I would be willing to bet that armor is taken into account for damage reduction whether or not you notice it or not.  Also I'd say that if you take 20 damage in one hit it doesn't matter what your armors are, that beast was either strong or skilled enough to get past your defenses.  Armor, specifically primitive Zalanthian armor, isn't perfect and a strong or even lucky beast could probably get through even the best of it.

The problem seems to be what should getting hit for 20 damage do to your character?  You seem to think that if any wound code gets put in it'll automatically be made into a draconian system where one hard wound debilitates your PC for RL weeks.  No one I know of is supporting that in this thread but a few people do seem to support a balanced approach to adding wounds in game.

As far as code enforcing and dictating roleplay I disagree.  Personally I don't think it'd limit roleplay at all, what it'd do is standardize how people see wounds IG.  It'd be designed to enforce and dictate realism.  Roleplaying is how you react to the wounds in game, as it stands now everyone can define their wounds for themselves which in most cases leads to people minimizing their wounds.  If anything I think wound code would add to roleplaying possibilities because it'd define what wounds you have and let others see them.  To me it's the difference between using a virtual object which always seems a little fake and forced when you have to convince others of it or using a coded object that people can look at, see and realize without you having to flesh it out for every new person who comes along.

[Cegar]

Cegar, we don't know exactly how the combat system on Arm works.  I would be willing to bet that armor is taken into account for damage reduction whether or not you notice it or not.  Also I'd say that if you take 20 damage in one hit it doesn't matter what your armors are, that beast was either strong or skilled enough to get past your defenses.  Armor, specifically primitive Zalanthian armor, isn't perfect and a strong or even lucky beast could probably get through even the best of it.

The problem seems to be what should getting hit for 20 damage do to your character?  You seem to think that if any wound code gets put in it'll automatically be made into a draconian system where one hard wound debilitates your PC for RL weeks.  No one I know of is supporting that in this thread but a few people do seem to support a balanced approach to adding wounds in game.

As far as code enforcing and dictating roleplay I disagree.  Personally I don't think it'd limit roleplay at all, what it'd do is standardize how people see wounds IG.  It'd be designed to enforce and dictate realism.  Roleplaying is how you react to the wounds in game, as it stands now everyone can define their wounds for themselves which in most cases leads to people minimizing their wounds.  If anything I think wound code would add to roleplaying possibilities because it'd define what wounds you have and let others see them.  To me it's the difference between using a virtual object which always seems a little fake and forced when you have to convince others of it or using a coded object that people can look at, see and realize without you having to flesh it out for every new person who comes along.

Have you ever tried to stab a piece of wood? A piece of thick bone? It doesn't work. Have you ever been attacked in heavy armor before? You take a lot of damage. No one knows for sure how the combat system works (exception: staff), but I know what happens. You can easily get hit very damn hard by even small things when wearing heavy armor. You'll take damage, but you shouldn't roleplay being wounded, since you're still wearing armor... nothing is wrong with it. It's still there preventing things from getting to your skin. You took damage, but that's probably representative of the shock and force of the hit knocked you on your ass, not actual bleeding.

The point is, any wound code (except for one with amazingly complicated and clairvoyent code) WOULD be Draconian because it WOULD force unreal circumstances and it would force them quite often. There are many, many, many ways in which the code could flub up. It just isn't possible in my mind to make a code that will be realistic. There are far too many variables. How would you explain getting clawed under a wooden breastplate? Hunters would have spammy wounds one very part of their body, because with the current system, things hit you ALL THE TIME. Even if you're a godly hunter or soldier, you're going to get smacked by stuff ALL THE TIME. People will have miles and miles of scars and wounds and it will probably end up being unrealistic. For merchants who accidentally get attacked by a desert elf? Yeah, it'd probably be realistic. For any character devoted to combat (especially in the wastes) it would get carried away. With the combat code as it is, you get hit a lot. Much more than people would in real life. In real life, you generally get hit once or twice and then all your HP is gone. In Zalanthas, it isn't like that. The combat code simply doesn't behave in a truly realistic manner. Therefore, any wounds system imposed by it would be unrealistic as well. Get my drift?

[SpyGuy]

I get your drift but I still think you're wrong.  You're making a lot of assumptions about armor that I think are wrong.  One is that all armor has weak points, especially primitive armor.  It needs to so that you can move your limbs and so it isn't dead weight.  Moveover many of the beasts on Zalanthas I would assume -can- pierce armors.

A few simple ideas from a non-coder on how wound code could be more realistic:

1)  Have certain animals flagged No_Wound to allow them to not be able to inflict critical wounds on a player.  So no matter how bad you suck that jozhal or that tandu isn't going to get you wounded.  That bull duskhorn or that scrab, however, might.

2) Don't have scars coded in with the wound code.  I never said I supported that nor has anyone else.  Scars are and should always be optional.

3)  Have MANY options to heal wounds that both PCs can use or can buy from NPCs.

4) Have wounds only added if a character takes massive damage in one hit (30+ or so) or a stronger blow (15-20+) at poor health or below.  This would reflect the clear trauma of having been hit very hard in one blow or at lower health it could reflect the fact you've already taken a hard beating and your defenses are opened up for a more severe injury.

Cegar, you're really in my mind assuming a worst case scenario on all of this.  Just because you experienced what you felt was a bad draconian wound code on SoI (and several people have disagreed with you) doesn't mean it has to be that way on Arm.  I personally feel it would add much greater depth to the game and much more realism, as it stands now in combat I feel like I'm playing a H&S MUD, it has a simple arcade feel that isn't bad but definitely doesn't mirror the depth in the rest of the game and probably doesn't mirror the depth of what the combat code does behind the scenes.  I think we're not going to convince each other on this one and you're lucky, there definitely won't be any wound code until some coder really gets eager to try and implement one  :wink:

[Cegar]

Well, I still challenge you to try and stab through a 3 inch thick piece of hardwood, let alone bone. Can you imagine trying to slash an obsidian breastplate? It would not work.

This is kind of breaking off into a tangent, but a bone breastplate (as described in the game) covered the whole torso in bone. If damage is to be considered done to the flesh, then that means that animals and characters break armor or find its miniscule weakpoints more than 70% of the time. That just isn't logical. Armor does not break if something does 20 damage to you through it, and it probably isn't through a weak point. Wood, bone, chitin, and obsidian are incredibly strong materials and it takes an extreme force to break it. A low caliber round does not pierce through thick earth wood, why should a human wielding a scimitar?

My argument that code cannot reliably make a logical wound system. It would be cool, yes, but it would dictate RP to the point of being an extreme nuisance.

[Ayashah]

Ooops, sorry. I have been working on a patio and havent been on since I posted till today.  Glad to see others answered the question on what was SOI's wound code. I didnt mean an exact copy of SOI's code but that it would be nice if healers 'were' needs along with water mages.

[Nao]

This is kind of breaking off into a tangent, but a bone breastplate (as described in the game) covered the whole torso in bone.

There -have- to be spots or slits to open it though - you have to be able to take it on and off, so it yould have to be two parts and if it's not made specifically for THIS wearer it would have some space in between - bone doesn't bent or fit itself on the wearer.
Some kind of weak spot where damage would come through easily - and who says that broken ribs can't be serious damage? Might show up as bruises or whatever..

It's even worse with armguards or the like - If you wear all bone and chitin and obsidian, it's gonna be -very- heavy armor, and there's still gonna be unprotected spots at connecting places, you need to move your limbs after all so there needs to be some kind of joint. And unless all the armor is perfectly made o fit with one another there's gonna be some space at the shoulders, or hips, or the neck, where there's two pieces of armor coming together.

Soft leathers - very little protection. -Hardened leathers - again, they need -some- kinds of joints so you can move inside.

Fighters would specifically aim for those weak spots.

Besides, allt hose materials do break - bone is very brittle, and so is obsidian (why do weapons break but armor just gets used up...!?)

[Cegar]

Yeah, but they generally don't break when something hits you there. And I refuse to believe that a scrab consistently pokes through the very small leather joint on my SIDE while wearing a breastplate.

[Quirk]

Well, I still challenge you to try and stab through a 3 inch thick piece of hardwood, let alone bone. Can you imagine trying to slash an obsidian breastplate? It would not work.

I challenge you to wear a 3 inch thick hardwood breastplate.

Seriously. Real world "heavy" battlefield armour was a fraction of an inch thick. For armour to even be wearable, weight-wise, it has to be pretty thin all over.

And Zalanthan armour mostly doesn't have the density and malleability of metal. Armour would be that much more inefficient; any armour that would be light enough to hunt in would be even less effective than a corresponding Earth light armour, and would be up against beasts that are much more dangerous than most things you'd hunt on Earth, and have evolved to prey off giant insects with massive chitin exoskeletons. Feel free to bug any armour that's unrealistically thick.

Now, of course, we can quibble whether bone and wooden weapons would have enough oomph to do much damage even to hard wooden armours. This is just one of the unrealistic aspects of the game, I'm afraid. But attach a good solid stone axe-head to a wooden shaft, and you'll carve those armours apart.

And yes, another unrealistic aspect is that armour doesn't get used up faster when you get hit. This is mostly for playability purposes. I doubt you want to see this changed?

[Cegar]

This is such a derailment.

But wood is relatively light compared to steel. Bone and chitin even lighter. The only real problem of armor is the head, it isn't THAT heavy. I've worn a suit of full steel armor, and even that is only around 50 pounds. Easily doable by someone in shape.

[Quirk]

This is such a derailment.

But wood is relatively light compared to steel. Bone and chitin even lighter. The only real problem of armor is the head, it isn't THAT heavy. I've worn a suit of full steel armor, and even that is only around 50 pounds. Easily doable by someone in shape.

Yes. Wood is less dense than steel. It is, however, not so much less dense that wearing a three-inch thick piece of armour will not be extraordinarily heavy. It is also far easier to damage; it doesn't take a great deal of steel to thwart an axe-blow that would cut a great chunk out of a tree.

My point was that between the bulkiness and relative weight/strength of the wood, bone, etc, Zalanthan armour is worse than Earth armour. (Which is why humans on Earth used metal armour instead of wood or bone). It's not going to form any sort of unstoppable barrier to prevent damage getting through as you seem to be suggesting.

[Cegar]

Yeah. I've worn real wood armor. I've worn real steel armor. No, not larping. Yeah, I've moved around. It wasn't that heavy nor was it THAT hard to move around in. I could have swung an axe just fine.

Listen, I just dare you to try and cut down a hardwood tree with a stone axe. Now try an obsidian axe. Now try a bone axe. Now try a wood axe. NOW try a metal axe. See the difference?

Most materials would SHATTER on a piece of wood. Especially swords. What does penetrate would get stuck, most likely. I think you're really downplaying armor and its effectiveness. Not all strikes in combat are particularly hard or dead on, most would just glance off a piece of armor. Have you ever tried to hit someone with something while they were doing the same? It is fucking HARD to get a good shot on them. And it is HARD to aim for weak points in armor. Try it, it really, really is.

There was a long thread about RL armor use, you should search for it. Maybe I'll find it later. Anyway, people in full hard armors move around slowly and swing slowly. They take a lot of hits, but they barely feel those hits. They are tanks, but they are very slow. That is what Tuluki combat is described to be like, but it isn't like that at all. Usually I see them run around with two weapons just like EVERYONE ELSE IN THE GAME. The armor/combat code needs an overhaul, in my opinion. People also need to realize that hard armors really do deflect and cushion blows. They aren't just for show.

[Quirk]

Listen, I just dare you to try and cut down a hardwood tree with a stone axe. Now try an obsidian axe. Now try a bone axe. Now try a wood axe. NOW try a metal axe. See the difference?

People cut down trees with stone axes for millenia. Bone - probably not. That's another Zalanthan glitch. Hardened wood - I'm sceptical, but maybe.

Most materials would SHATTER on a piece of wood. Especially swords.

Well, yes. Again we're teetering on the edge of Zalanthan fantasy material science. Do you really think an obsidian longsword would stand up under its own weight? We just have to run with it. There aren't really any materials suitable for sword-making on Zalanthas.

Stone however has a long and glorious Earth history of cutting wood. The Maori used nephrite, a.k.a. jade for the purpose in their adzes. Europeans used flint axes and later basalt.

(This is swiftly becoming a silly argument, not because you're saying anything particularly wacky, but because the Arm world itself doesn't model the properties of bone and stone and wood in a realistic way).

What does penetrate would get stuck, most likely. I think you're really downplaying armor and its effectiveness.

This isn't metal armour. This is wooden armour, which we have relatively little data on since nobody in Earth history thought it was worth using - even before the Bronze age they seem to have settled for treated hides. I'd be tempted to speculate that wood's tendency to split along the grain is to blame, but as I say I don't really have a lot of data here. However, just in shaping it round a human form you're going to structurally compromise it. Additionally, as you increase the thickness, you're going to mess with people's centre of gravity and hence make it harder for them to balance.

There was a long thread about RL armor use, you should search for it. Maybe I'll find it later. Anyway, people in full hard armors move around slowly and swing slowly. They take a lot of hits, but they barely feel those hits. They are tanks, but they are very slow.

I'd be interested in a link. I'm really made very dubious by the "move around slowly and swing slowly" - it seems to me to partake of the "ancient weapons were so heavy!" misconception (most medieval swords actually only weighed in at a couple of kilos: http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm ). I'm pretty certain if you were swinging slowly, you wouldn't be able to penetrate the steel of the later medieval armours.

That is what Tuluki combat is described to be like, but it isn't like that at all. Usually I see them run around with two weapons just like EVERYONE ELSE IN THE GAME. The armor/combat code needs an overhaul, in my opinion. People also need to realize that hard armors really do deflect and cushion blows. They aren't just for show.

Given that the kind of (metal) heavy armours you're speaking of didn't become popular until comparatively very late in Earth history, was mainly restricted in use to temperate climates, and then had a fairly short heyday before projectile weapons made them an anachronism, I'd be tempted to assume that most Zalanthan armour wouldn't be anything like as heavy. Additional weight is lent to this by Zalanthas being in a technological era which predates invention of the stirrup and longbow (lack of the stirrup being a major reason why mounted combat sucks) - it's not at a point analogous to Earth history where people wore truly heavy armours.

It's a desert world. Anyone who is wearing much more than plated leather armour probably isn't having to travel in it, or even go outside much. People may realise that heavy, hard armours do protect them, but also recognise that the speed trade-off makes them non-ideal for hunting.

[Cegar]

1. Yes, people cut down trees with stone axes... after hundreds of swings. You don't get the luxury of hundreds of uninterrupted, perfect swings in combat (or you shouldn't, anyway).


2. Agreed. But again, cutting down trees and cutting armor are different animals.

3. You can't structurally compromise wood like that. You carve it into another shape, it isn't as sturdy, but wood isn't prone to shatter at low velocities. Again, bullets don't shatter thick, dense wood or penetrate it well.

4. http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11902&highlight=armor+armour+larp

Swinging slowly is a bad term. You wouldn't be very agile in your swinging. It is steady, hard to change direction/target. The velocity isn't slow.

5. I wasn't speaking of metal armors. I'm speaking of Zalanthan armors.

6. Zalanthas is hot, yes. Combat in a hot environment is easily doable for short periods of time, which is what people in heavy armors would do. I wrestle in 110+ degree heat with 100% humidity constantly. Considering that I am a weak Earthling and that wrestling taxes the body more (in terms of stamina) than "sparring" or combat (sometimes), then I am sure conditioned Zalanthans can deal with it.

The point I am trying to make is not that everyone should use heavy armors, but that they should make a noticeble difference, both positive and negative. As it stands, there isn't much to set them apart from sandcloth.

[Quirk]

1. Yes, people cut down trees with stone axes... after hundreds of swings. You don't get the luxury of hundreds of uninterrupted, perfect swings in combat (or you shouldn't, anyway).

That's quite true. On the other hand, if your wood-shaping utensils are that crappy, wooden armour should cost a hell of a lot more than it does. Imagine how long it would take to make...

3. You can't structurally compromise wood like that. You carve it into another shape, it isn't as sturdy, but wood isn't prone to shatter at low velocities. Again, bullets don't shatter thick, dense wood or penetrate it well.

Shatter, no. Split - yes. Also, since it's relatively inelastic, it is more prone to break than bend - consider the old party trick where people break a board with a downwards punch or chop parallel to the grain. Moreover, if you carve wood into a curved shape rather than bending it (and the latter is obviously particularly hard to do with thick wood), you expose it to being struck from angles that will increase the chance of it splitting.

And the thicker and denser the wood, the greater the weight problem and the thinner it'll have to be.

5. I wasn't speaking of metal armors. I'm speaking of Zalanthan armors.

Which we've got remarkably little data on, except that they're made from materials which we Earthlings thought were too crap to use as armour.

6. Zalanthas is hot, yes. Combat in a hot environment is easily doable for short periods of time, which is what people in heavy armors would do. I wrestle in 110+ degree heat with 100% humidity constantly. Considering that I am a weak Earthling and that wrestling taxes the body more (in terms of stamina) than "sparring" or combat (sometimes), then I am sure conditioned Zalanthans can deal with it.

Combat's less of a problem than travelling for long distances under the hot sun, with the real possibility of running into something large and nasty enough to make a Kodiak bear look like a housecat and having to scarper fast. You're lugging that armour around with you all day, unless you're taking time out to change into it before combat and changing back after.

Hunters historically tended not to employ heavy armour, after all. Mobility seems to have been more important than protection.

Also: good to hear you're a wrestler. I'm a judo/BJJ guy myself. I hear you on the whole taxing-the-body thing...

The point I am trying to make is not that everyone should use heavy armors, but that they should make a noticeble difference, both positive and negative. As it stands, there isn't much to set them apart from sandcloth.

Okay, I'm pretty much in agreement there. I'd like to see the advantages and disadvantages more manifest too. It's got to be recognised though that the current behaviour of Zalanthan weaponry and armour is nonsensical from a real world materials viewpoint, and that fixing that would be a really, really huge job.

[Cegar]

http://www.sdfwa.org/DIW/2001/images/large/twa2001.jpg

[Quirk]

San Diego Fine Woodworking Society, Design In Wood Exhibition 2001?

Looks pretty. Not sure it would offer much protection beyond boiled leather (if that), but it's a very nice-looking piece.

[Angela Christine]

You can overcome the grain problem in wood by using plywood, also known as laminated wood.  Thin layers of wood glued together are stronger and more stable than a single thick layer of wood.  The technique was known to ancient peoples and used for shields and bows, but I don't know if anyone used it for armor.  If metal was available it would probably be easier to work with than plywood.


Angela Christine

[Synthesis]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I believe someone is taking the point of view that wearing heavy armour and using a shield doesn't really have much of a benefit (or at least not as much of a benefit as it should give).

If you honestly think that heavy armours don't confer much benefit, then you haven't been fighting tough enough opponents.  Good armour -greatly- reduces the amount of damage you take, and shields (with a good shield use skill) make you -much- more difficult to hit.  Sure, you might still be getting pinched "very hard" by a scrab...but if you weren't wearing that obsidian breastplate, it might've been a very serious wound.

As far as shields go, if you have a good shield use skill and good agility, you become practically invulnerable behind a good shield.  Even if you've never used a shield, the difference in defensive capability is immediately noticeable.

Sure, there are pros and cons, as with anything, but if you have the strength to use it and the money to buy it, the pros of shields and heavy armour -vastly- outweigh the cons, in my (drawn from years of experience and dozens of combat-oriented characters) opinion.