Idea - Market Apartments

[LoD]

There are many players that have expressed an interest over the years for having a shop/location to sell their crafted wares and do business.  Tent objects don't work in the city, so purchasing a tent to create a viable space to conduct trade was never an option.  That left people either having to join a house or display their wares for all to see in a tavern or patch of ground somewhere in the market/bazaar.

With the success of Apartments in the game, I wondered at the possibility of having one-room apartments, which acted as storage rooms, and had a special script for raising a canopy that would create a tent object when raised, and remove it when lowered.

It would look something like this:

Code Select Expand

Open Market [NEW]
Hard packed earth and stone mingle as they form the floor of this
expansive marketplace.  The cries of hawkers, warmth of the crowds,
and stink of the city is strong here, overpowering the senses.  Mud
brick buildings line the walls of this market, strewn with a variety of
goods and baubles.
A squat, mud brick building rises against the southern wall.

>enter building

Inside a Mud Brick Building [E Leave]
The pierced, golden tattooed man stands here, watching the hallway.
The squat, beady-eyed man sits here, at a small table.

>list

The following shops are available:
1> Cramped Storaroom for 500 coins.
2> Cramped Storeroom for 500 coins.
3> Cramped Storeroom for 500 coins.

>buy apartment 1
You give the squat, beady-eyed man some obsidian coins.
The squat, beady-eyed man says, in sirihish:
   "You now have a storeroom with us, first door on the right."

>east

The squat, beady-eyed man gives you a bone-notched key.

Mud Brick Hallways [EWS]

>unlock door s
*click*
>open door s
Ok.

>south

Cramped Storeoom [N]
Jutting from the wall is a small, bone crank.

>look crank

This small crank has been crafted from rugged bone and attached to
the brick wall to the south.  Thick ropes wind about the crank, stretching
through the wall and out toward a dark blue canopy that can be raised
or lowered from this position.

>use crank
You turn the crank, slowly raising the dark blue canopy outside.

WHAT PEOPLE SEE OUTSIDE
-----------------------

Open Market [NEW]
Hard packed earth and stone mingle as they form the floor of this
expansive marketplace.  The cries of hawkers, warmth of the crowds,
and stink of the city is strong here, overpowering the senses.  Mud
brick buildings line the walls of this market, strewn with a variety of
goods and baubles.
A squat, mud brick building rises against the southern wall.

A dark blue canopy slowly rises from the squat, mud brick building.

>look

Open Market [NEW]
Hard packed earth and stone mingle as they form the floor of this
expansive marketplace.  The cries of hawkers, warmth of the crowds,
and stink of the city is strong here, overpowering the senses.  Mud
brick buildings line the walls of this market, strewn with a variety of
goods and baubles.
A squat, mud brick building rises against the southern wall.
A dark blue canopy is raised here, providing protection from the sun.

>enter canopy

You step into:

Under a Dark Blue Canopy [Leave]
Protected from the harsh rays of the desert sun, thick sandcloth has been
dyed a dark blue and layered to keep winds and sand to a minimum.
Slender bone poles have been fitted to either side of the canopy, wound
with heavy rope that seems to disappear into the wall of the mud brick
building.

Perhaps there isn't a need for this and merchants can do business easily enough from tavern chairs, pillows on the market floor, or wherever, but I thought it'd be an interesting idea to build upon the success of the Apartment code.  It could provide merchants with storage and the "feel" of having their own shop without the need for Immortals to create something specific.

-LoD

[moab]

First, let me say this is a great idea.

Second, since the advent of change ldesc, when I play and indy merchant (or artist with wares to sell) I just did something like this:


The bald, grumpy man stands here selling brass nameplates.

Or something.

But I like your idea, a lot.  A place to store stuff is great.  A way to move coin around is great, a place to break into is great.  It is a superior solution.

:-D

[Malken]

That's an awesome idea, being able to have players-run shops...

[Morgenes]

I like this idea, it would allow us to reuse the apartment code.  The only new code would be a bit of code to handle opening/closing the shops.  

I do think that a storefront like this would be prohibitively more expensive than an apartment.  More along the lines of 1000+ obsidian a month, not 300.  Really, I doubt anyone would make enough money to afford it just being open as long as players are on.  I also wonder if players will bother to go by this row of shops as most often they will be closed.  You would need to hire more PCs to be shoptenders for you (something that would be neat to see, but I imagine impractical).  There's also the question of how do you display your wares.  And how do you differentiate yourself from the other sellers in town.  They have a nice easy interface that allows you to list, view and quickly haggle and buy what you want.  Having to chat up a merchant who may or may not be there, find out if they do or do not have what you want, and then get to haggle would take a lot more time, and I imagine most players would avoid it.

I think a better option would be to somehow allow hiring of NPC shop attendants to sell your wares for you so that you're open more often like other stores.  Possibly with the ability to give the NPC a break and run the shop when you want to.

[Halaster]

Funny you bring this up.  I have a very similar idea on my to-do list that's been sitting there neglected for months.

Here's my notes:

Code Select Expand

Shop-Master
based on apt-master, allows people to rent shopkeepers
higher priced versions allow more capacity/value
when becoming a "shopkeeper" via trade ministry get a license for it
higher valued ones have stall by themself, lower values in a mall
higher valued ones can hawk your wares
higher valued ones look better/better personalities
use existing shopkeeper code to do it, but allow them to
set min and asking prices.

I got the idea after playing Star Wars Galaxies for a month or two, heh.

[mansa]

That gets me excited in ways my girlfriend will never know.

[Yokunama]

That gets me excited in ways my girlfriend will never know.

Shes going to be mad when I tell her about the hawt mudsex.

Good idea, BTW

[Quirk]

I think an NPC shop-attendant would be a must.

I'm not sure how necessary it would be here, but when I was coder on Harshlands many moons ago I wrote code so that PC shops turned a steady profit from VNPC sales as well as PC ones. It's obviously more sensible ICly for people to be making a good living out of selling directly to the populace than to shops owned by crafters, but PC sales are a very unreliable source of income.

The way the code worked out was pretty much that I assigned shops an income considered reasonable for that shop (let's say 400 sid a game month for the example's sake), and the probability of PC-crafted items in the back room being bought was calculated from this income. Lots of small items led to a fairly steady dribble of coin into the PC's chests, whereas a few big items would lead to occasional, large sales instead.

So, how does it work? Let's say that we check a hundred times a month with a 4 sid "stake". A PC-crafted item is randomly selected from the list (with perhaps some penalty being tacked on at this stage if there's a lack of choice in items, or bonus if there's a plentiful stock) and its cost ascertained. For the sake of the example, the PC-crafted item is a cloak costing 60 sid. There's a 4 in 60 chance - a 1 in 15 chance - that the cloak will be bought by a passing VNPC and the sid will end up in the PC's coffers. Over the course of time this process averages out so that the income is approximately that set for the shop for the month. One month the PC shop may sell 3 cloaks, the next 8, but the average income over time will tend towards 400 sid.

This calculation could of course have other things factored in such as relative price to value of items (assuming PCs get to set price), general economic variables modelling the current supply/demand on salt or clothing or weaponry in 'Nak, etc. This could be done on an item by item basis, or (to yield more understandable results) on the overall income from a classification of the item types the shop sells. In any case it can be made to dovetail neatly with more sophisticated economic modelling.

[Gimfalisette]

AGREE ENTIRELY AND EMPHATICALLY to both the shop idea and the NPC shop attendent idea.

I played Star Wars Galaxies for quite some time, and the ability to open one's own shop and sell stuff there was--incredible. It was fun. It felt real. It gave players more opportunities to interact. ("Hey, I was at your shop and you were out of product X, can you...?") It felt like ownership of the world. It made independent crafting realistic. Whole cities were built out of the mercantile efforts of the player base. Crafters loved these features and played the game long and hard because of it.

So I say, yes yes yes.

[Eternal]

Now SWG has removed the merchant classes entirely, but the concept (and execution) was excellent.  Don't get me started on the dumbing down of a once-great game...  This would make an excellent addition to the merchant classes, not just as a store, but the possiblity of development beyond 'Those guys with cavilish and haggle (and crafting)' to a full-fledged guild with limitless potential (or at least expand the perception of those who see it this way).

Lord Templar Hard Nose likes it rough.

[Anonymous]

I think a better option would be to somehow allow hiring of NPC shop attendants to sell your wares for you so that you're open more often like other stores.  Possibly with the ability to give the NPC a break and run the shop when you want to.

That is what I was hoping for, and it sounds great. Buy low from one city or village, and sell it higher down at your shop. It would open a lot of new roles. And we could also start seeing how ruthless the major Houses can get.

[Cuusardo]

That gets me excited in ways my girlfriend will never know.

That's okay, because I've been busy getting her exc--  Oh wait, this isn't about that.  :twisted:

Anywho, I really like the idea of being able to open up shop somewhere by renting a room and hiring an NPC shopkeeper.  As long as someone can afford it, I think they should be able to do it.  I've seen PCs in the past who really wanted to but couldn't, because they couldn't find someone to rent from, or it took a long time to get a hold of Nenyuk, etc, etc.  It would save PCs from the headache of having to pick a spot on the side of the road, outside or in a tavern, or just running around with all their crap to try to find someone to buy it.  And it would be a place for them to craft said crap without disturbing anyone else, or having to go across the city to find a place to work.

[Halaster]

Yeah, the idea would be totally automated.  You'd go a NPC and get a list of avaiable shopkeepers for hire.  You'd rent one, like an apartment, for x-amount of time.  The NPC would load in a place, and you'd then go to that NPC and setup your shop.  You'd give them goods to sell, tell them how much to sell them at, the minimum they'll haggle for.  You'd check inventory, get your profits, and so on.  More expensive shopkeepers would even hawk your wares, and so on.

There'd be a limited number of these available, and would require a merchant's license in Allanak to even be able to rent one.

[Malken]

Absolutly brilliant. How much is the bribe these days to push this idea to the top of the to-do list?

[Hymwen]

This idea makes baby Jesus smile!

[Quirk]

And we could also start seeing how ruthless the major Houses can get.

No. No we wouldn't. Currently the major Houses operate out of bazaars replete with NPC and VNPC salesmen selling similar products - and they don't care. Why should they? The lucrative end of the market is the huge contracts they have with Noble Houses and other large organisations; trying to stamp out all those tiny competitors for the relatively poor and miserly commoner end would make that end of the market unprofitable fast. And yes, some of those tiny competitors have shops and stalls. They're still tiny compared to the Houses.

It's only PC Salarri and Kadians who stomp on independent PCs, because they're bored rigid doing what they do; and that's no better RP than that of a blue-robe templar entering a VNPC-crowded room and fining PCs on the other side of it for not bowing. You even could argue it's worse than that, as it leads the stagnant portions of the game (Merchant Houses) to stamp out vibrant player-led RP.

[Gimfalisette]

Completely sweet plan. I'm sure it would result in a greater abundance of independent merchants for merchant houses to assassinate--I mean, compete against. It actually makes the role of independent merchant look a lot more fun.

[Malken]

The lucrative end of the market is the huge contracts they have with Noble Houses and other large organisations; trying to stamp out all those tiny competitors for the relatively poor and miserly commoner end would make that end of the market unprofitable fast.

Really? If you are right then I certainly hope that some of those currently in charge of such major Houses read that.. But I don't want to derail this awesome idea, so we'll just hope that they read this

I was the anonymous kank, by the way.. Not sure why I wasn't logged in.

[Delirium]

There are so many other fun things you can do besides resort to assassination.

Extortion, coercion, bribery, targeting their employees, etc.. etc..

And that's only if they get ridiculously successful, enough to be actual competition to a great Merchant house.

Which is unlikely.

[Twilight]

I think the hard things would be:

Taxes:  There is no way that PC sales should be exempt from the taxes levied on other goods sold.  So if your sword gets bargained down to 100 sid, you are only going to get 90.  Of course, what would be REALLY cool is if the NPC kept the full 100, but would only release 90 to the shopowner, and would release the other 10 to PC templars, rather than just a straight haircut of the amount.

Haggling:  The more expensive the shopkeeper NPC, the better their haggling skill should be, so the harder it would be for PCs to haggle.  Conversely, the cheaper they are, the worse haggling they should do.  There should be a minimal amount that PC shopowners should be able to affect getting haggled down.

NPC race:  Do you choose the elven shopkeeper, with a better haggle skill but a chance of skimming off the top from you, or the dwarven one that is reliable but not the best?  Or, *gulp* the really, really cheap half giant one.

Monopolies/Merchant Houses:  There needs to be a way for Merchant Houses to protect their monopolies.  This could be as simple as an automated talk script that gives the sdesc of the owner so that they can go strongarm them.  Or it could be complex enough that certain item types are either prohibited from being sold, or have a higher tax associated with them, or an automated cut to a merchant house, or that you need to get permission (via the script) from a House member of a certain rank or above to be able to sell certain item types.  I think this one is the hardest to figure out.

[Malken]

Monopolies/Merchant Houses:  There needs to be a way for Merchant Houses to protect their monopolies.  This could be as simple as an automated talk script that gives the sdesc of the owner so that they can go strongarm them.  Or it could be complex enough that certain item types are either prohibited from being sold, or have a higher tax associated with them, or an automated cut to a merchant house, or that you need to get permission (via the script) from a House member of a certain rank or above to be able to sell certain item types.  I think this one is the hardest to figure out.

I don't think that this last part would need to be automated.. They could just hire someone to keep an eye on what's being sold and by whom.. Then if they wanted to take action against a certain shopkeeper, hire a few thugs or send in the bribed Templar..

[Northlander]

I very much like LoD's original idea. 'Buying' an NPC and 'stocking' it would feel awkward to me. And the next step would be to allow purchasing NPC guards. The original idea seems quick to implement.

How the PC would be showing items isn't that much of a problem; there are already PC merchants, aren't there? Someone enters the shop, the merchant throws words at him about what he's got, and can 'hold' items the Someone wants a look at. If the buyer wants an even closer look, he could deposit a sword to look at a shield.

It wouldn't have to cost 1000 'sid a month. I conceive the bazaars in both cities as huge, with hundreds of virtual stalls. If the 'Open Market'-building costs its owners 5 000 'sid a month and they rent out twenty stalls, that's 250 a month they have to make for each. 300 or 400 or 500 would be a good cost.

There isn't enough bartering between players going on, and I'd certainly always walk by this building if there was one. I think the allure of roleplay and unique and rare items would draw others. But of course this'd be possible even if the PC merchant had an NPC with him in the shop.

[LoD]

One of the other reasons I enjoyed the "shop" idea was to allow crafters to play their trade and still be in the public eye.  Quite a few folks get flak when they waltz into a tavern and begin skinning down some beast, or scattering bone pieces all over the floor.  They want to be social, but they also want to work their goods.

Whenever I'd craft something, I alwys found myself locked behind a door of an apartment or compound so I was close to my stockpile.  It'd be nice to have that RP visible by others so that you don't have to completely sacrifice productivity for social RP.  These small shops would be a neat way for you to be approachable and still get your work finished.

I know that I would check these PC shop locations on a regular basis to see if anyone's "tent" was up and see what they had for sale.  While they might not have the sword I wanted, they could take an order from me, or we could discuss some other kind of arrangement, such as supplying goods or materials.  Good times all around.

-LoD

[Twilight]

My thoughts on the Monopolies/Merchant Houses was that PCs shouldn't be immune to the same kinds of restrictions applied to NPC merchants, especially if setting up a semi-permanent shop.

I like LoD's idea about them crafting in a place.  It would also mean hunters and gatherers going to that place to actually sell things, which might be awkward with NPC vendors.  Of course, I would go for having both things simultaneously.

[Dalmeth]

I like LoD's idea about them crafting in a place.  It would also mean hunters and gatherers going to that place to actually sell things, which might be awkward with NPC vendors.  Of course, I would go for having both things simultaneously.

It could also mean that hunters and gatherers would actually barter for something instead of trading it for coin.  It would be nice to see more of that sort of interaction going around.

[Angela Christine]

I like the "sales tax" idea.  Merchants should be helping to support the police force that protects them from thieves, or at least instakills those thieves after the fact, which is great for preventing recidivism.  


You pay to rent the space (goes to either the city, Nenyuk, or whoever owns the property), you pay the "wages" for the NPC shop minder, and you pay your taxes to the city.  The NPC shopkeeper might want a % commission on sales, instead of or in addition to a minimum wage.  

Applying sales tax and/or NPC commissions would help encourage people to still seek out PC to PC interaction.  If you sell a sword for 100 sid from your shop you might only get 90 sid of that in your pocket.  If you sell directly to the PC you can charge 95 sid, resulting in a better deal for both you and the buyer.


:idea:


It would also be good if you could buy goods through your shop, not just sell.  If you are a jeweler you'd set your shop to buy gems, saving you from having to go out into the dangerous world to dig for gems yourself.  I'm not sure if the code would let you buy specific items or just classes of items, either would probably be ok.  Rather than setting an exact price for each item you'll buy, you could set it as a % of the Value (as determined by the Value skill).  Most NPC shops buy things much below Value, and re-sell them greatly above Value.  If you could set your shop to buy for, say, 90% of Value most grebbers would rather sell to you than to the money grubbing NPCs, and you are still saving money in relation to what it would cost you to buy from NPCs or hire someone to go foraging specifically for you.  Even if your NPC shopkeeper would only buy 5 of each item, your shop would still be attractive because you'd be clearing out those 5s every day or two.  


:idea:


An option for more expensive shops would be to hire a guard as well as a shopkeeper.  The guard stands around and looks menacing.  If a shop has a guard the difficulty of stealing is raised.  Like most shop guards he wouldn't actually do much besides shout "Thief!  Thief!" but it would still be kind of cool.  These guards wouldn't be as high a quality as those that guard the gates to estates, but even a second-rate guard can help discourage crime and protect your shopkeeper if monsters start pouring out of the sewers or something.


:idea:


If NPCs kill your shopkeeper, a portion of their goods and cash on hand should also be automatically destroyed.  If a wandering mekillot or sewer-thing kills your shopkeeper it just makes sense that they are going to spoil some of your goods in the process.


:idea:

To be super-double-cool, expensive shops could include a backroom or upstairs apartment/sleeping area, so that you can live in your shop.  It wouldn't be thief proof, but a thief would have to go through your shop, past your shopkeeper or guard, and past the locked door before they could get into your back room and steal your couch.

Specialized shops could also include descriptions of areas where the owner can cook or do other crafts (possibly with a coded skill bonus).  If you are setting up a bakery shop, it would be good if you could actually do the baking there, rather than at the Gaj cooking pits.  These areas could be rolled into the "backroom apartment" so that random crafters wouldn't be camping in your shop working.



OK, I'll stop now.



Angela Christine

[Gimfalisette]

AC's ideas rock too. Also very much like what could be done in Star Wars Galaxies, with the exception of the guarding/thieving stuff, which would be awesome.

[moab]

This stuff makes me want to play a merchant again.

[Jherlen]

I'd be in favor of the modified approach... having NPC storekeepers to sell goods when the PC wasn't around to run the shop. You could have those NPCs given some standardized talk scripts, maybe to say the owner of the shop and a "greeting" or "sales pitch" to people who wanted to talk to it.

I envision a subset of House Nenyuk that sells space and contracts out trained salespeople to sell goods. Just like there are real-life marketing/promotional firms, Nenyuk could train their people in general merchanting/hawking skills and let crafters provide inventory. (Plus, this gives Nenyuk something more public to do beyond running apartments and banks.)

You could still do your crafting in a PC shop and be around to run it, but having NPCs there would make them more persistent and maybe encourage more PCs to use them or peruse them.

To feed the derail a bit... The only way Salarr/Kadius/Kurac would start caring about individual, independent merchants would be if they started impacting sales in a significant way, stealing big-name clients. Salarr doesn't care if some two-bit spear maker opens up a shop... however they would certainly care if that spear maker started undercutting them and their contracts to the templarate/noble houses for less.

All in all, I love this idea.

[Tlaloc]

I like the "sales tax" idea. Merchants should be helping to support the police force that protects them from thieves, or at least instakills those thieves after the fact, which is great for preventing recidivism.

It should be noted that all NPC merchants generally have to deal with 'taxes', naturally, as a part of the code. So, yes, if an NPC merchant was created as per Hal's idea, they would likely also deal with taxes as per normal.

[Mudder]

Man this is a super sweet idea! I hope Hal gets it in game, I just might end up having to play a merchant even though I said I never would, but with his in game it would bring playing one to a whole different level! Very sweet.

[Koala]

Just the idea of this code being implemented made me black out for a few RL minutes . If this is ever implemented, there will be great RP opportunities for anyone who has some trade, but cannot find the right people just because of the difference in their playing times and time zones.

Also this may create an oppurtunity for tribal traders, who wish to trade their good in one of the city states. It seems to be, with the current code, it is difficult (not impossible) for tribals to get involved in trading relations with city based pc merchants. With the "open market" idea, they can easily locate those pc merchants and do some trade. Hell, maybe those tribals can open a lasting shop for themselves, who knows.

Another contribution of this code would be that you can own one store in Allanak and another one in Tuluk (or somewhere else). This will create more RP opportunities (hiring a mercenary group or etc.) when those merchants start regularly shipping their goods between their shops.

[mangler]

Wow, this is a mega cool idea, souds great, and it would be even better with Npc shopkeepers, reminds me of when i had an weapon crafter once, who's life ambition was to run his own shop, but at the time,i thought it would be a bit much to send a special app for my own shop. But rent a shop would be fab.

[Anonymous]

The original idea has merit however i don't know about getting NPCs to do the work one would otherwise do ICly.

The biggest problems i see with merchants and crafters is almost everyone hangs out in the taverns and crafting or hawking there is for the most part is considered bad form. If this idea was implemented without NPCs(or even with), a room or two (bazar or mall) solely for these shops would have to be made. The original complaint with this was that it might further separate the player base between places. Though I kinda like the idea of people going to the busy bazars in the day and then spending the nights in the taverns. It would be nice seeing players hawk and working on their crafting, socializing with others and sharing crafting ideas.

A possible problem i see with having NPCs run the shop is: a person sets up shop, still has to do the crafting behind closed doors and then isn't required to do any of the RP work to sell his stuff since the NPC now take care of that. It doesn't nessasarily solve any of the orginal problems or create that much RP (creates additional gameplay but not nessasarily more RP)..trade is now being handled through NPC more then ever.

I don't know like i said the idea has merit...