ANSI color

[Larrath]

I gave this some thought and a question suddenly hit me - why don't we have ANSI colors, really?

Three states:
Off - no color, not even brighter text.
Standard - selected by default.  Exactly the same colors as we have them now.
Falish - colors can be customized.

Here are the things that could be colored:
Combat-related hits (including subdue).
Combat misses (including subdue).
Psionics.
Says/tells/talks.
Sing.
Whispers and overhearing.
Thoughts and feelings.
Shout.
Languages (a different color for each language).
Prompt.
Important messages like hunger, thirst and weapons shattering.

Players using the Falish color setting will be able to manually pick the color for each of these categories and could also toggle some options off.


I think this could help make the game more approachable, and since it's optional and doesn't provide any additional information, I can see no potential harm coming from this.

[Lavalamps]

I have wondered this myself.
Ansi color could add alot.
The main thing would be to color the prompt, the room title and exits, and maybe psionics... but too much more than that would just make it confusing.

[Tamarin]

No, for the sole reason that I can think of a thousand things that should precede work like that.

[Lazloth]

No, for the sole reason that I can think of a thousand things that should precede work like that.

And the fact that you can do it yourself with virtually any client.

Some many years ago, I used to miss it, but these days don't.

[Lavalamps]

And the fact that you can do it yourself with virtually any client.

Really??
Know of any good Mac clients?

[amoeba]

No, for the sole reason that I can think of a thousand things that should precede work like that.

And the fact that you can do it yourself with virtually any client.

Some many years ago, I used to miss it, but these days don't.

We have a -very- conservative bunch of people here.  Frame the question differently. First, what the priority is for the staff to work on,  is up to the staff, not the players.  Second, would adding an -optional- color benefit the game in making it potentially more attractive to prospective newbies who haven't been playing Arm for years and long for the status quo. Third is this something that those who have clients that don't allow ad-hock colorization or don't want to dink with their client find helpful.

[Lazloth]

And the fact that you can do it yourself with virtually any client.

Really??
Know of any good Mac clients?

tintin++ by far the most versatile.  If you need help compiling, drop a shout - they distribute OSX binaries too.

[Medena]

This topic comes up every couple of months with about the same results. I'm not doing the old "We've talked this subject to death" thing. Really, I'm not because I am all for discussions which allow newer players to examine issues which are new to them and to add their thoughts. And, who knows, maybe something new will come out.

That being said, let me summarize the usual camps:

1)  The Purists -- Arm is harsh and the lack of colour suits its theme and conveys the proper mood.

2)  The Client Proponents -- This is so easy to do and get a totally custom look. No need to use mud resources for this.

3)  The Helpers -- This will help new players adjust and assist other folks who don't have access to fancy clients.

People stubbornly cling to their own camps and don't get swayed.  Making it optional I guess should allay the threat perceived by The Purists but they would then probably turn around and use Argument # 2.  

I can sympathize with the arguments raised by The Helpers. The main reason to colourize is not for the cheery colours themselves but just to make the sometimes rapidly scrolling text easier to see and sort through.  And this can be a daunting thing when you are new.  When I was new, I very quickly put some triggers in my client to colourize psi's, "at your tables", etc.  I am in camp #2.  I will need more convincing as to why people can't use clients.

[Anonymous]

Not sure I'd want to attract the kind of players who would consider a MUD based on pretty colors....

[amoeba]

Thank you Medena, that was well stated.

Not sure I'd want to attract the kind of players who would consider a MUD based on pretty colors....

Comments as such are specious at best, and insulting for the most part.  People don't pick things based on "pretty colors", they pick things based on other aspects right or wrong that they infer from having critical syntax colorized.  Questions such as is the codebase current? Could be answered as, "Well they can't even figure out color, they must be really behind the times." Questions such as is it easy to pick out the "important" things I need to look for?

If syntax coloring was so very nonimportant, why is it so many people do it with their own clients?

Also you should be cautious with flippant comments as such, they could easily be turned by prospective players into "Do I want to consider playing in a place that has snobs as such?".  First impressions mean everything.

[Dalmeth]

Well, I color things for the sake of being able to keep track of what's going on.

Being a relatively inexperienced player, I don't really have all the messages I'd need to make a truly thorough coloring system.

[Hymwen]

I voted yes.

The lack of ANSI doesn't bother me much anymore, but I think we've lost more than a few potential players because of it.

[mansa]

I voted yes.

The lack of ANSI doesn't bother me much anymore, but I think we've lost more than a few potential players because of it.

I voted no.

I'm of the opinion that we've gained more players because of the crazy colour schemes that are out there at other MUDs.

[Nao]

If you can toggle this off - heck, why not...!? What the fuck is the problem there..?

We're the only mud that I know that doesn't have colors, and if I hadn't had a helper that lack of color would have turned me off enough to leave right there.

I hear the 'do it with a client' thing so often... BUT:

The only time someone ever posted something about how to do this only applied to zmud and it took me quite a while to even figure this out, when I had stuff in most 'colors' would show up as grey. Mhm, great. And I have no idea where to get a zmud version that will run on windows xp without registering.

This also doesn't help with the helper argument, since 'use a client' is not an option for a newbie that doesn't even know that this might work.

Anyone tell me how to do this with gmud...? possible at all..?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

No, we GMud users can't do it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Additionally, I'll add that I am in favor of adding color.

[Larrath]

No, GMud will not support client-side coloring.

[Nao]

Someone give me a client that is free, will run on XP and gives me colors through triggers? And maybe tell me HOW to make the damn thing spit out nice shiny colors at me?

[Dalmeth]

Someone give me a client that is free, will run on XP and gives me colors through triggers? And maybe tell me HOW to make the damn thing spit out nice shiny colors at me?

MudMaster 2000

Download the client and the helpfiles.  Put the helpfiles in the relevant folder  When you enter the client, input "/help highlight."

[Vesperas]

Just about any one will do.

MudMaster 2000 has substitutes AND highlights which are VERY easy to customize (irritating to initially set up if you have LOTS), with fairly good helpfiles.  If you decide to try MudMaster 2000, type:
    /help substitute
    /help highlight
      or, just plain
    /help

MUDMASTER 2000 -- http://www.mmgui.com/
Modem Friendly download, totally free.

If you are willing to sit back and take the time to learn how to use Triggers, you can use another client like PortalGT, which is sort of over-powered for Armageddon (but I like the graphical health bars, what can I say?).  I'd never suggest zMUD to anyone, though, it's got too much of a commercial taste for me.


Edit:  BAD Delmath, BAD, for beating me.

[spawnloser]

Someone give me a client that is free, will run on XP and gives me colors through triggers? And maybe tell me HOW to make the damn thing spit out nice shiny colors at me?

MUSHClient, easily findable with a google search.  When you have it, let me know and I'll send you an Arm worldfile with the key things colored.

[Moofassa]

Someone give me a client that is free, will run on XP and gives me colors through triggers? And maybe tell me HOW to make the damn thing spit out nice shiny colors at me?

MUSHClient, easily findable with a google search.  When you have it, let me know and I'll send you an Arm worldfile with the key things colored.

He sent it to me. Very nice. Nothing too bright.

[Kennath]

As long as you only make the elves use colors...

-Ken

[Yokunama]

Just about any one will do.

MudMaster 2000 has substitutes AND highlights which are VERY easy to customize (irritating to initially set up if you have LOTS), with fairly good helpfiles.  If you decide to try MudMaster 2000, type:
    /help substitute
    /help highlight
      or, just plain
    /help

MUDMASTER 2000 -- http://www.mmgui.com/
Modem Friendly download, totally free.

If you are willing to sit back and take the time to learn how to use Triggers, you can use another client like PortalGT, which is sort of over-powered for Armageddon (but I like the graphical health bars, what can I say?).  I'd never suggest zMUD to anyone, though, it's got too much of a commercial taste for me.


Edit:  BAD Delmath, BAD, for beating me.

You can highlight certain words or entire lines with MudMaster.

[moab]

I voted "no."  This is a client-side issue.

[Larrath]

I voted "no."  This is a client-side issue.

This isn't more a client-side issue than having the MUD randomly fire off a few hundred lines of gibberish at all players.  Sure, some people can mess around with their clients to block the gibberish.  That makes it a client-side issue?

Another client-side issue would be to change movement from this:

Code Select Expand


> east


Code Select Expand


> move left_foot east step
You take a step to the east.
> move right_foot east step
You take another step to the east.
> move right_foot east step
You fall down!
> move body up hands
You push yourself up with your hands.
> move left_foot east step
You take another step to the east.
> move right_foot east step
You walk east...


After all, it's trivial for an experienced mudder to just turn 'East' into an alias to do all of the stepping automatically and therefore circumventing a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.  Fact is that there are a lot of players who use triggers to highlight text.  Why should only those players get to enjoy colored text?  It's not like it would be forced down anyone's throat.

There are few things as annoying as talking a newbie through setting up triggers to highlight text in the game.  It's very time consuming and very draining.

I should have known better, but I have to say I'm quite disgusted with this.  The question in the poll, to me, is actually this:
"Would you like to see the game made easier for new players to get into, providing nothing was changed for anyone else and the balance between players wouldn't be changed in any way whatsoever?".
Apparently some people are perfectly content with even needlessly difficult and problematic aspects of the game, no matter how many players they may turn down.

I'm of the opinion that we've gained more players because of the crazy colour schemes that are out there at other MUDs.

A color scheme is not crazy when it:
1. Defaults to 'off'.
2. Is completely customizable.
3. Flexible enough to allow a player to only color what they want to.

Also, don't forget that some clients are simply not capable of adding color at all.

I will need more convincing as to why people can't use clients.

Because not all people have clients that support color.
Because not all people know how to set up colors in their clients.
Because it's ridiculous to expect Helpers to learn how to set up colors in every major mudding client in order to walk new players through it.

Being able to set up a client properly is more of something that's required out of a player that sets up bots and plays in fast-paced PK muds.  It has nothing to do with roleplaying.  Also, some of the coloring triggers can be pretty tricky to make.

No, for the sole reason that I can think of a thousand things that should precede work like that.

Work like making the game more accessible to new players?  I thought we wanted more players in Arm.

Not sure I'd want to attract the kind of players who would consider a MUD based on pretty colors....

I'd like to know the relation between this statement and the thread.  This is not about 'pretty colors' but rather about accessibility to new players.
Would you not want to attract the kind of players who would consider a MUD based on how many months it would take them to get even a basic understanding?
Because the learning curve already seems to take a good three to four months, and longer without a Helper.  That is a bad thing, not a good thing.

[moab]

This isn't more a client-side issue than having the MUD randomly fire off a few hundred lines of gibberish at all players.  Sure, some people can mess around with their clients to block the gibberish.  That makes it a client-side issue?

In the best of worlds we see data sent from the server to the client and the client deciding how to display this data.

This is one of the  big advantages of XML and CSS and all this.

The server should _only_ send data.  The UI end should choose how to display it - whether to read it into a txt-to-speech app, display it in color, or create a jpg of it.  Whatever.

Obviously, I'm being a little silly - but the point is that the UI displays, the server computes and sends/receives data.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Other than the process of adding color code capability, which in fact is not hard at all since rudimentary color coding already exisists on the MUD, a member of the staff would have to go through the entire code to add color options.

It would take a week or so, but the point is that, in that week, the mud would go from being plain or rude ANSI, as it is now, to fully colored for Newbies or whoever else likes color.

Given that many code changes take weeks already, the argument that it would take too much time is not a good one, to me. It's not hard, and it most certianly is not detrimental to the game, so I think those opposing the idea based on these reasons should rethink their positions.

[Dalmeth]

Let me point out that coloring things isn't supposed to make things "pretty."  It's supposed to make things organized.

Imagine if attacks on you and attacks on someone else were a different color, wouldn't that make it easier to deal with combat spam?  How about the list of objects in a room?  Would it be neat if players were one color and items were another?  How much easier would it be on the eyes then?  You could also color different forms of movement for easy recognition, and it can all be up to you what color each option is.  You can even choose to have no color at all.  Isn't that great?

[Yokunama]

Larratth, I voted "no" because ANSI coloring is already optional. If you don't want color, you don't have to have it. If you "really" wanted ANSI coloring, it wouldn't be too hard for you to find a client with ansi support and add the code for the highlights. Also, the code is out there on the internet. You just have to look for it.

I have to admit. There needs to be something done to help people distinguish things, because it is kind of hard trying to make out things, when in large combat situations, areas filled with PCs, and etc. New people especially have a hard time trying to figure out whats what.

A little bit of ANSI color wouldn't hurt, because when people first enter a new MUD world, color is going to be the first thing they look for. It was the first thing I expected to see, when I first gave Arm a try. After 3 hours of playing, I decided to give up and return to my old mud world for 6 months, because ARM was simply lacking ANSI. Luckily, my friend dragged me along with her back to Arm.

Color tends to have this thing with attracting people. Today, people, especially the youth, tend to find it hard to sit in front of a screen with black and white text. They need colors and graphics to keep their attention. This is one of the reasons I do believe we have lost some players.

Try searching the message boards for "ANSI". A lot of people, especially newbies, asked about this several times before. The oldest thread dates back to Nov 11, 2002.

Heres a some quotes:

1.  A major portion of people who come to this game dismiss it immediatly because it does not have color, a good portion of them that are great rpers that I know personally, who cannot handle the difference, and have trouble picking out things of the spam of white (or green as I put it to slightly help me)
 
3. When in combat, especially combat of inceasing numbers I notice all that is highlighted is damage.  I can't even tell when my player is knocked down, bashed, tripped, or anything of the sort, because it goes right in with the spam  this is something I would know icly, I was just knocked on my bum for krath sake.
 
4.  I think it's a pretty inpractical restriction to say no you can't have color, especially if it's a reoccuring request, for those of you who prefer not to have colors, great, if ANSI were implemented you wouldn't have to view them, they'd most likely be toggled, or you could go set all of your default colors to the same thing.
 
I'm not too sure how hard it would be to implement full ansi, I mean even if you didn't break out and turn everything colored, road names, tables, objects, and combat types would be the least things you could do, and I'm sure it would greatly improve new players impression of the game, and greatly help to reduce some of what I see as "spam" and half the time that's what it appears to be to me.

Oh, for me, it's just a little confusing when I see a whole flood of text spamming my screen. I find with colours that I can single out important things... such as player's speech, player highlights, what I'm saying and objects.
 
I absolutely hate turning on the brief system on some muds... Just doesn't feel the same.

This is probably an old idea but since I am basically brand new to the game and I didnt see the topic here, I wanted to bring it up. There is another MUD that offers ANSI coloring. It helps to see characters and objects. The MUD seems grat so far but I was wondering if ANSI colors might ever be used? It would help me but maybe create problems I dont realize. Thank you

Personally, the reason I want ANSI is not because of "the pretty colors that keep me entertained". It doesn't need to be a ROM hack'n'slash mud with flashing combat messages where we can *AnNiHiLaTe you with A-C-I-D SPRAY!!!1". What I want is to be able to read emotes and speech more easily. Reading a two-line emote that includes the emoter and two other ~people can be very annoying.

On SoI, sdescs (not only when 'look'ing in the room) are colored, and it helps a lot. Room names and objects could be colored as well, but it's not necessary. Check out the difference:

The two-legged, dressed templar's gaze passes the poor, begging beggar as he motions for the strong, armed bodyguard and points his finger at the poor, begging beggar before making his way past the common commoner.

The two-legged, dressed templar's gaze passes the poor, begging beggar as he motions for the strong, armed bodyguard and points his finger at the poor, begging beggar before making his way past the common commoner.[/list]

It's a lot easier on the eyes because you don't have to concentrate as much on seeing who was the actual emoter and who were the targeted players. PCs and NPCs should by all means be the same color.

I got tired of typing.

[moab]

Zork didn't have colors and it rocked pretty hard.
Maybe it was my monitor that didn't have color. It was a long time ago.
:-D

How can we know why people drop the game (new people) typically they don't post - "Hey, there was no color so I bailed."  I'm not sure where FightClub got the information and I think it's kinda suspect (no offense FC).

I have introduced several people to the game - none of them asked for color, tried to use color or even bothered to figure out how to set their clients up for color.

I think it is not a major detraction and would ask for some "proof" or whatever to show that this is the reason for our small numbers.  Rather, it's more like the required RP, the text-based game itself, and the permadeath that scares people off.

Finally - if the request is seen for what it really is: more experienced players wanting a better interface, they only need to set up their own client their own way.

I mean - I don't want my criticals in blazing red, but maybe you do.  Leave it to the end use to choose the dispaly. That's why this logic belongs on the UI end of it.

[Dalmeth]

Finally - if the request is seen for what it really is: more experienced players wanting a better interface, they only need to set up their own client their own way.

With my vast, sagelike experience, I can tell you that a coloring system supported by the MUD is vastly superior to a clientbased coloring system.  I'm inclined to say that a basic color categorization of what's in a room is nearly impossible to complete through the client I use.  There would just be too many special cases or it would interfere with other messages.

I mean - I don't want my criticals in blazing red, but maybe you do.  Leave it to the end use to choose the dispaly. That's why this logic belongs on the UI end of it.

This isn't about making criticals red, this about being able to easily sift through a large amount of data, and as I said, a MUD based coloring system is always superior to a client-based system.  So you know, if you don't like making your criticals red, then turn the damned ANSI color off, but don't try to stand in the way of making the game a little easier for others to play.

A coloring system to organize data is a sign of advancement in a MUD.  The fact we draw players without one is a testement to the quality of this game.  However, this is one newfangled bit of technology we can and should use.

[Aldiel]

I voted yes.  Really what could it hurt?  It will only help us draw in noobs.  Not sure if I will use it or not, but will be a fun option to have available.

[Medena]

I will need more convincing as to why people can't use clients.

Because not all people have clients that support color.
Because not all people know how to set up colors in their clients.
Because it's ridiculous to expect Helpers to learn how to set up colors in every major mudding client in order to walk new players through it.

Being able to set up a client properly is more of something that's required out of a player that sets up bots and plays in fast-paced PK muds.  It has nothing to do with roleplaying.  Also, some of the coloring triggers can be pretty tricky to make.

Okay, you have succeeded! I am convinced.  But before you run out to apply for law school or the diplomatic corps, Larrath, it wasn't just your persuasive arguments.

In all seriousness, I really have changed my mind.  I had no idea that helpers were doing such things as trying to help newbies set up clients.  (One more reason that I'd probably never have the patience to be a helper but continue to admire those of that you that do.)  I guess I have been guilty of a bit of elitism or snobbishness or whatever you'd like to call it. I always figured that if a computer dummy like myself could figure out how to program simple scripts and triggers in zmud, anybody could.  But though I may be a computer dummy, I have been mudding a very long time. I bought zmud back in about 1995 when I no longer had access to space on a unix box to use tinyfugue.  And, yeah, I had to have zmud to be able to function in a fast-paced pk mud and the first thing I did was learn how to gag a lot of battle-spam so that my poor little 14.4 modem wouldn't start screaming and disconnect me.

So, seriously, move a vote from no to yes.  I have seen the light!

[Xygax]

An easy solution to this might be for people to compile their favorite clients and macros/hooks/triggers/highlights for each one.  If some ambitious soul wants to compile that info for me, I'll make it a document on the main website.

-- X

[Antigone]

yes, but not in a hurrying fashion.

[gfair]

Plus this would also let us do ansi art! We could give the Mantis its colours!

[daedroug]

yeah who ever heard of a white mantis anyways?

[Only He Stands There]

Give me a few days and I'll see what I can do.

Current clients slated:
ZMud
tintin++
MudMaster 2000


Any others?

[amoeba]

Any others?

MUSHclient
GMud
gMUDix
the Java Client on the website.

[Only He Stands There]

I'll do MUSHclient too.

GMud is impossible - it doesn't support color triggers.

gMUDix is currently having server problems.

I don't know Java/Javascript/anything - aside from the fact that I don't have access to the client.

[amoeba]

I'll do MUSHclient too.

GMud is impossible - it doesn't support color triggers.

gMUDix is currently having server problems.

I don't know Java/Javascript/anything - aside from the fact that I don't have access to the client.

I know it was a trick question. gMUDix does not support triggers either.  It is nice though that you are putting together the files for those that do support the functionality.  It would be nice to help those folks that can use client sided solutions.

[Dakkon Black]

SANX MUD

Mmmmmm

[Only He Stands There]

So, after some preliminary poking around with Simplemu, I found color-triggering quite easy and intuitive... however, the color choices are extremely limited, and despite all my efforts, anything I come up with will either come up a) very, very limited in color (the same three or four colors), or b) looking like a very flambouyant circus tent.

I'm trying to keep a fairly Zalanthanized color scheme for all of these - reds, oranges, yellows, blacks, and occasionally grey.


Now...
If anyone would like to help, I need a lot of it. Specifically, I need the -exact-  output messages for basically every combat situation... i.e. all the hit messages, all the miss messages, what it shows you when your kick hits, what it shows the victim when your kick hits, what it shows a third party when you kick someone, what it shows you when your kick MISSES, what it shows THEM when your kick misses... etc etc. Plus sap, backstab, disarm, all those combat skills.

Please, please, please nothing magick-related. Send it via PM or email directly to me.