Nobles

[Gimfalisette]

In my experience, this approach is a recipe for having the rest of your character's existence becoming entirely beholden to the fickle, selfish scheming whims of whatever Noble you approach with such an offer.

Well, just thinking about things from the player's perspective, noble players probably get somewhat starved for RP, so if someone is brave enough ICly to approach them, then it's going to be normal impulse to continue to try to engage ICly. Isn't that what we all do, once we've met someone at the tavern? "Oh hey Amos, I'm SO glad you came in, come help me with this thing..." But nobles of course have to maintain a particular IC attitude of selfishness etc. or they get accused of being "too nice."

I haven't played a noble (obviously, since I'm still a noob), however it sounds like a really tough role. Can't approach commoners yourself; can't be too nice or really interactive or interested when you're approached; yet you're supposed to create things for people to do and involve people; yet again, supposed to stay at arm's reach...A bunch of big catch-22s.

[marko]

All right, nobles: can you give us commoner-types some concrete examples of interactions that a generic noble character might welcome?  What can J. Random Amos do for you?

I'm aware (thanks to some of the posts in this thread) of what a noble can do for me...but why and when they would is harder for me to grasp.

Here are some that should work just fine in the north:

tell lord Chosen Lord, care for a game of cards?

tell lady Chosen Lady, do you have a moment to speak about whateveritishousedoes

tell lord Might I buy you a drink?

tell lady I was hoping to talk to you about X.

tell lord I would like to introduce myself to you.  I am so blah.

tell lady Hi!  I'm X.

Anyway - just talk to the Lord or Lady in question and don't worry about the guards.  Some lords or ladies in the north might get kinda miffed but most wouldn't be.

The South - make certain you go through their aide, guard, servant, whatever.   Bow and then bow some more.  Be subserviant.  The are better than you and you have to show that at all times.  Therefore something like:

tell noble's guard (bowing as he approaches ~noble table) Does Lord Borsail have a spare moment to speak with me regarding X?

tell noble's guard (bowing really low and getting ready to lick the boots of ~noble) I have discovered something that may interest the Lord Oash.  Please inform him I am available at his earliest convenience.

tell noble's guard (wetting their lips and fretting with the hem of his shirt) I wants ta talk to tha Lord 'bout some stuff.  Yah know.. quiet stuff.  So, tell 'im I'm here neh?

Anyway - the point - In the North just approach a noble about anything.  

In the South - go through the buffer layers between the greatness of nobility and the lowness of being a commoner.  Approach through their minions.

The when is whenever they are alone and looking bored.  

[Anonymous]

Assassination attempts are always fun.

Offers of interesting news and information is typically going to pique noble interest - especially if it's about the doings of some competing house. This is information that many nobles may not otherwise have because their minions are many and obvious (and thus not privy to the doings of any competent opposition).

Bards, believe it or not, are welcome - provided that they are interesting and suited for noble ears.

If you have Cool Stuff (tm) to sell - i.e. things that may not otherwise be found in the common marketplace. If you're able to come up with a story that makes it cooler, hey, all the better.  I personally think more people should -attempt- to swindle the rich and famous.

Slaves... since the noble houses are the only dealers. Let's say you're poor and you've got a kid you want to sell off for some quick 'sid, or you have given up on earning a living as a freeperson... Don't laugh. If you can convince a staffer to provide you with an NPC - or EVEN BETTER you can come up with a willing PC to do this, there's big money in something like this. Even if you volunteer to be the slave, you could earn some interesting benefits.

Beggars are always entertaining. You may not -get- anything other than a boot to the face or roughly shoved aside, but you're very unlikely to be killed for it if the nobles/templars in question have half a brain... and persistence can lead to some interesting role play.

Bastard children of a noble (see swindle, above) can be interesting - although you should mail the staffmember over that noble house before doing something like this to, at least, give warning.

I think the main fallacy I see with the noble/pc interaction concept is that it must necessarily be some form of long-term until-death-do-we-part relationship. That's simply not so.

And let's not forget, that entertaining yourself with a friend while in the presence of nobility is still fair game. What I hate the absolute most is when people all go into a tavern, sit at their very separate tables, and use -talk- constantly about absolutely frigging nothing.

Sure, it cuts down on spam, but if the only way you can get interaction out of it is for people to use you to max their listen skill, they're still not as likely to interact with you because they weren't -supposed- to overhear you.

Sit at a table, start up a rowdy effin' game of cards or a drinking game, or a dicing game, and use TELL rather than talk.

Open the door so that the others may walk through.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Davien...

...that is an excellent post.

I don't know how long you've been back, but you've been missed, if for nothing else but your posts.

Kudos.

[Cenghiz]

To tell the truth, I'm confused.. I don't get what the problem is.

In North, nobles are already social.. At least the last noble I saw was. If you're a merchant, offer your goods. If you're something else, offer your service and wait. He'll ask you what you want as an award already.

In south, as people have said, the usual way to approach any noble - including templars - is approaching to a guard. If the guard is a PC, whisper him your wish. If he's a NPC, tell guard (in a hushed tone) and wait because the templar has the power to emote for the guard. Do your business and go away. If you've nothing to fear - you've nothing to fear already. They're able to kill your char at whim, but you only lower this chance by offering your service. Why would they kill someone useful.

I've been killed only once by a noble, it was my mistake 100% and other than that, all my relations with nobles caused wealth and social power for my character.

Communication may only be harmful if the noble is the wrong person to speak to. You want to sell arrows? Find the quartermaster. Ask the guard who the quartermaster is, but not to the noble. You want to become recruited? Find an aide. Find a sergeant. Find someone but not the noble. You saw a mul running loose and you know where he remains? Find the Borsail/Winrothol Sergeant again. You want to sell your silk, fluffy dress? Then speak to the noble.

All the workers already report to the noble and they'll make sure the noble knows. If he wants to speak to you, he'll have you summoned. And those servants are there for a reason. Approach the correct contact for your business.

[Anonymous]

Cenghiz, the only problem I have with your post, and it's a problem I have with many of the posts on this topic, is that people are so focused on propriety that they miss a critical fact: role play tends to be immensely more interesting when things go wrong.

Imagine this from the standpoint of everyone who is not you for a second.

What is going to be more intertaining: A brief and proper interlude where the random guy manages to ask the NPC guard about some minor and largely inconsequential event that causes a single interaction; or A brief and wholly improper event where a random guy manages to make a PC noble look foolish or feel completely out of place for several minutes of improvisation that leads to a ham-juggling competition, a noble soaked in ale, a templar and an innuendo about a tandu sausage, and a random guy being thrown forcefully into the street after having been lashed six times in the public square.

I know which one is going to be the most memorable.

Take Risks. That's what Armageddon RP should be about.

[Seeker]

So...what is it you want, exactly?  Free money?  Sociable nobles?  If you want interaction with a noble, there -are- going to be things to take into account.

I guess I want people to understand that, as in Marko's and davien's posts above, there are more interesting, less restricting ways to interact with the nobility, then the single "I am useful, use me" example that I commented on, Armaddict.

I also want the Nobility to consider that not every interaction with a commoner PC should necessarily end with the Noble acquiring a new disposable puppet.


Seeker

[Ava]

Imagine this from the standpoint of everyone who is not you for a second.

What is going to be more intertaining: A brief and proper interlude where the random guy manages to ask the NPC guard about some minor and largely inconsequential event that causes a single interaction; or A brief and wholly improper event where a random guy manages to make a PC noble look foolish or feel completely out of place for several minutes of improvisation that leads to a ham-juggling competition, a noble soaked in ale, a templar and an innuendo about a tandu sausage, and a random guy being thrown forcefully into the street after having been lashed six times in the public square.

It's entertaining for all and sundry, while it lasts. However...most people don't want to be lashed six times in the public square and have to move to the enemy city-state in order to have a successful career (because each PC represents a large percentage of the harrassable, non-virtual population).  If you're playing a stupid, bumbling commoner, that's fine; if you're playing an ordinarily smart commoner who wants to gain some small amount of wealth, power, and prestige...you're going to be very, very careful how and when you interact with nobles.

[A Different Noble]

For me.... I'm almost almost exclusively southern player. And the simplest and truest excuse I can come up with for not interacting with nobles, is... well, nobles are just scarier than the templarate.

1.) It's easier to find a templar (with the exception of a particularly social Fale). They actually enter the realm of the common masses. Nobles.. well, do not.

You aren't going to be finding many nobles visiting the Barrel - documentation tends to discourage them from hanging out there often. Lamentably, lots of commoner PCs don't seem to want to go anywhere else.

This is just personal opinion, but the Trader's Inn is still very much in the "realm of the common masses". If you're playing a character who wears silk (i.e. a senior aide, a senior crafter, a merchant) or an officer-level PC, you can hang out in the Trader's. It isn't a "nobles only" tavern and the NPCs there reflect that. It's also a cleaner and nicer atmosphere befitting people of decent station.  If nobles wanted a place all to themselves, then can (and do) visit their estates, the Arboretum, etc.

Tuluk doesn't have this problem as much because everyone uses the Sanctuary anyway. In Allanak it isn't that nobles are less visible as much as they're not visible where commoners like to tend to be.

Marko and davien made some pretty good points on what you can do for a noble and the fact that you don't always have to be added to their personal collection of tools. In fact sometimes I actually welcome the PCs who are looking for more independent sponsorship versus life employment, because sometimes you have everybody employed that you can possibly take, and hiring more people means you wouldn't have enough for them all to do.

Anyway, I hope that if this thread can do one thing it would be to dispel the illusion that all nobles are vicious, evil torturers who like to kill every commoner who dares speak to them. In either city there are plenty of ways to get involved, for better or for worse, for a PC's lifetime or just a small while. Nobles are usually somewhere near the center of political roleplay in either city, and that's an aspect of the game that can be quite fun, especially if you like getting caught up in big events.

[Cale_Knight]

I also want the Nobility to consider that not every interaction with a commoner PC should necessarily end with the Noble acquiring a new disposable puppet.

*slow clap*

[Anonymous]

It's entertaining for all and sundry, while it lasts. However...most people don't want to be lashed six times in the public square and have to move to the enemy city-state in order to have a successful career ...

"I don't want to get punished" "I don't want to go to jail" "I don't want to get enslaved, even temporarily." "I don't ever want anything -bad- to happen to my character"

What fun is that?  Really? The problem is that people are so worried about the perfect health of their perfect characters that they won't ever take any risks. This is what causes Tavernspotting.  

Your adrenaline never gets pumping from maxing your hemorrhoids at the bar and talking about meaningless nothings with your buddies. It gets pumping when your life is at risk. Let's not forget that you have no money invested in this character, and nothing that happens to this character reflects on you in real life. It's a character, and it should be considered to be disposable in the interest of creating an interesting story. Especially now that app turnaround for regular apps is so quick.

Now, again - an assassination attempt is not necessarily a death sentence. I am certain there are circles within both cities where something like this, even failed, would garner immense respect. But short of this, you can do so much without being given a death sentence.

I hope that if this thread can do one thing it would be to dispel the illusion that all nobles are vicious, evil torturers who like to kill every commoner who dares speak to them.

Ditto. It's all about knowing which ones to screw with, and which ones not to.

And by the way, getting lashed in the square for overstepping the bounds does not end your life in the city.

[bloodfromstone]

I don't want to get punished" "I don't want to go to jail" "I don't want to get enslaved, even temporarily." "I don't ever want anything -bad- to happen to my character"

What fun is that?

That, in all fairness, is not what Ava was saying. It is fun to have faults, and it is fun to play out mistakes. It is not fun to be killed outright for doing so. No, not all nobles are ready to kill at a moment's notice. Neither are all templars or sergeants or merchants. But some of them are, and some people lose the drive to play something like that out upon happening across one of them.

Personally, I've had attempts at playing up a character's flaws end in ultimatums. Stop doing X (and I'm not talking about spying or stealing) or you will be killed. Apparently no one in Zalanthas is a drunk, mentally unstable, or a coward. They are all ruthlessly pked upon getting employed. Ok, that sounded bitter, and I'm not really bitter. I'm just saying, from the perspective of the fully punishable, easily killed masses, doing something like the example stated can end in a swift, unsatisfactory death for a beloved and well thought out character.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

"I don't want to get punished" "I don't want to go to jail" "I don't want to get enslaved, even temporarily." "I don't ever want anything -bad- to happen to my character"

What fun is that?  Really? The problem is that people are so worried about the perfect health of their perfect characters that they won't ever take any risks. This is what causes Tavernspotting.

People are reward-driven. If there's a large chance of a large downside and a small chance of a (likely) small upside to a given plan, why should anyone follow through with it? Only out of desperation.

[Cenghiz]

Err.. To Davien... I always play 'average' characters. Average characters don't make really stupid things. They fear magickers - not befriend them. They fear and know the power of the nobles. They don't trust elves and dislike halfbreeds bla bla...

Such a commoner would not make a mistake speaking to a noble. Trust me. Things can go wrong, but no char of mine dives into the silt sea, attack a seasoned magicker or speak foul to a noble.

Though, I believe sometimes I should play an exceptional char who does not. Just... not yet.

[Aldiel]

Dude, nobles rock.  They aren't always as much fun to play, I think, so I give everyone who plays them props.  I'm not sure how to respond to this thread, because I really do try to bring nobility into my characters' roles, but maybe I can agree with the poster in saying that interaction with nobility is always fun; sometimes it is beneficial....  Other time, it is very dangerous, but it is always a load of fun and stress.  

[Tamarin]

Personally, I've always found that not giving a shit about losing your character heightens the fun factor when playing with a noble.

[LauraMars]

Personally, I've always found that not giving a shit about losing your character heightens the fun factor when playing with a noble.

Word.

[Malken]

"I don't want to get punished" "I don't want to go to jail" "I don't want to get enslaved, even temporarily." "I don't ever want anything -bad- to happen to my character"

What fun is that? Really?

I must be really strange, but it's great fun to me when a character I've put time in it to develop friendships, contacts, a background and a nifty description lives for many days of playtime.

[Melody]

I must be really strange, but it's great fun to me when a character I've put time in it to develop friendships, contacts, a background and a nifty description lives for many days of playtime.

I concur. I'm very slow at creating characters, and each one takes a lot of details and time. As much as I approve of permanent death, I don't really enjoy playing a different shallow character with three lines of description every day of the week because the 'risks'. It can be fun and exciting, but so is watching my character grow and develop. That said, I don't go out of my way to avoid nobles and templars, but I think a lot of other new players would also agree that it's very intimidating and quite fatal, especially as we are not familiar with a lot of etiquettes that our characters should know, but we as players might overlook.

[Moofassa]

Welcome to Zalanthas.



Nobles can act however they want to act, within certain boundaries, of course.

[bloodfromstone]

The thread is devoted to OOC concerns about playing with and having reasons to interact with nobles. I don't think anyone is saying that ICly it is unfair for a noble to kill PCs, do nothing but tavern-sit, and make cloaks out of babies. I'm not picking on you specifically Moofassa, but every time a thread like this starts up, a few "Zalanathas is harsh."s and "Welcome to Armageddon."s start to pop up, but that isn't at all what the thread is about.

[Moofassa]

It just seems to me, that there is far too much complaining when it comes to people playing nobles.

People seem to have alot of problems with how the nobles are interacting with the general populace, aka, commoners. I've never really seen a big problem with any noble. For the most part, most nobles I've seen have been played very well. If there is such a reoccuring problem, why is it that the immortals haven't intervened and done something? I don't believe the issue of playability should be superimposed over the issue of roleplaying a character.

If I wrote my noble to tavern sit, and do relatively nothing, that's what the immortals approved him to do, so that's generally what he'll do. Now, if I wrote him up to be a bloodthirsty scum bag, who enjoys to collect the left nipples of dwarven albino's during his spare time, that's what he's going to do.

Granted, I understand the issues dealing with nobles creating roleplay for other characters. However, I don't believe that a player, playing a noble should abandon his character (approved by the immortals) for the sake of Joe.Ispentayearwritingthischaracterup's happiness. Fuck that shit.

Now, I'm in a fairly bad mood, so this post is gonna sound.. shitty.

As for people worried about how to interact with a noble: Find out IC. Har har, I hate that answer too. However, if you take a step back and think about it, that's really what you should be doing. If you see a bunch of commoners going up to a noble, and getting their private parts thrown to Tek, maybe you should second guess going up and doing that exact same thing. As a general rule, EVERY noble and EVERY templar is approacheable, you simply need to figure out how.


Um. Yeah. I reiterate my apology, bad mood.

(I'll add, it pisses me off when nobles kill me too. But I understand.)

Players in power, I salute you. It isn't easy to work at playing.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

People aren't complaining about how nobles are being played. They're just replying to the basic question as to why commoners don't initiate roleplay with nobles more often.

If your character approaches a noble (or a templar), he's taking a very substantial risk of humiliation, pain, loss and even death. That's how it is. Naturally, under these conditions, most people would ICly avoid nobles and templars like the plague unless they had a very compelling reason to approach them.

[Anonymous]

Being able to approach a noble/templar and being able to hang out in the same place then in the south is why i play almost exclusively in the north.

While just roleplay is good i've always thought Roleplay and Gameplay are better so should i ever choose to play a noble i would probably be working on getting more powerful/richer and influencial through RP means..if you have a goal your going to need people around you to achieve it ...and BOOM instant and fun RP.

That said its obvious to me this is not the play style of everyone here..some people don't have goal or give a damn whether their PC lives or doesn't...some people play just for the hell of emoting and this is completely alright but for me...hmm...how can i put this...I prefer a good movie to a sitcom...just like some people prefer west wing or 24 to say family guy.

I find getting my full developed and detailed PC in a nice juicy plot and storyline where permadeath is always hanging over its head..mmmMMM oh so much more fun and enjoyable for me then getting a 2 week PC tortured to death by a templar for being stupid..though coincidently the ending are sometimes similar, its the reason that is different    Usually having some small ambition/goal helps alot in getting myself enrolled in a good plot.

Sorry to derail the thread a bit but basically this is not to say you 'care' whether your PC lives or not but playing them with a little ambition/goal/ or just without a deathwish does have its RP rewards. I've always found that PC's with a bit of ambition even if its just to secure a meal for the next day has an easier time approaching noble or just in general oocly coming up with IC excuses for doing almost anything 'fun' or worthwhile there a PC who is there just to be there.