10,000 poison cures in one's left pocket.

[chang]

In regard to an issue that was touched upon in the Newbie forum, perhaps a thing to look to in the future might be restricting some subclasses to certain karma levels.  Some people expressed concern at the devaluation of poison at the wide-spread availability of poison cures, I know in the Northlands they can get passed out like candy, dunno about those silly southerners, but whatever.  Perhaps if physician was restricted to a higher karma level, it would disperse the socialistic health-care community and make poison a more fear'd foe.  Similarly, though I can't think of any specifics, other professions' restriction might benefit the game and make it more... difficult?  <digression> I dunno, I've come to love the difficulty or fear involved in the game. </digression>  And additionally, if the subclasses are stratified over the karma levels then perhaps it would allow new, hitherto unknown professions to enter the playing arena, made as rare as steel with respect to their high-karma restriction.  Rare stuff is exciting.

(prepares to get his idea shot down and flamed)

[creeper386]

I don't like this idea. Mostly because, if people pick the physician idea. They are dropping alot of other things. Same with any other sub class. They forsake ALOT of other things to pick it. Now, poison cures are common, for the more common poisons. And in a desert place, knowing how to stay alive after getting poisoned by a snake or scorpion... Specially with poison cures available, it'd be common that people would keep them with them. Still, this doesn't hinder the "fear" of poison really, you still have to have the coin to buy the poison cures, you still have to know which poison cures you might need dependant on where you are, so on and so forth. Blah blah blah.

I beleive sub guilds give scan too, that reduces the fear of anyone sneaking about. Maybe that should be a karma sub guild as well hmm? And I could probably think of several things. Like the skill barter being in subguilds, it reduces the fear of not having enough obsidian. Any of the subguilds that give skills reduces the fear of something, and in most of the world, they'd be alot more helpful then having poison cures.


Creeper who says there isn't no difference.

[John]

I dunno, I've come to love the difficulty or fear involved in the game.

Haven't we all?

prepares to get his idea shot down and flamed

People shouldn't flame you, they might disagree with you, they might flame the idea, but they shouldn't flame you (sometimes people discusssions get a bit heated though. Try not to take it personally (just re-read what you said, looks like you meant the idea getting flamed, which is good )).

Okay, now for what the topic was about (and yes, I do disagree with you ...........well, in part anyway).

True physicians (as in characters who RP being a physician as their main source of income) are pretty rare, especially for the common man who isn't in a House. I don't know about you barbarians up north, but down south finding cures is pretty rare. In fact I've only ever seen tablets twice and a vial once. The reason physicians are so rare is because to be a successful physician you NEED the knowledge on how to make plants. You can't just wing it and learn as you go along like Warriors, because there are millions of plants and only some when prepared in a certain way will require a tablet. Then once you have a tablet it's impossible to know what it does unless you use it. Now is this bad? HELL NO! It SHOULD be like this. Sure it's frustrating for newbs, but that's what makes physicians so amazin, both ICly and OOCly.

The only way to learn what poisons/cures do what, is to either get told by someone who already knows, or use the poison/cure on someone. And I'm sure not too many people are going to willingly give themselves up to test out something that can kill them.

So this is why physicians are so rare, and if you put it up just one Karma level, they'll become even more rarer.

IF physicians are becoming a problem then you can get rid of the sub-guild OR put it up a Karma level or two, BUT keep it as a skill that's branchable in the Guilds that can already branch it.

Another way to make poisons a scary foe, is to make more poisons, some that AREN'T curable (but extremely rare), make some tablets have a 50-50 chance of working. These could already be implemented but no-one knows about them cause finding new poisons/cures is difficult.

IF the Imms agree poisons aren't feared enough and there should be created, then I suggest you say so and people who do know about poisons and cures can start thinking up ideas and items.

I also can't think of any guilds or sub-guilds that the game would benefit from by making them more rare. Quite the opposite.

[chang]

*shaking his fist at the gods*  Daaaaaamnnn yooouuuu Salizar!!!  

[angry man]

i disagree mainly for the reason that I know mayb 5 people that have actually received karma. as the whole concept caters to very social, usually massive-outletted people. and alot of loner, individulistic, or non-social people tend to miss out on karma. (namely because why would an imm watch one guy out in the world when they could watch 10 in a room.)

and so what if medical care is more widespread? ive seen very restrictive, upper-crust physicians that are very elitest and un-offering of health care, and on the opposite end Ive seen very down to earth people. No reason to restrict the class.

thats like saying: that mercenary is cheaper then he should be, so lets make the option karma-based so people cant travel as easily underguard.

anyways, thats all.

[Kronus]

The last time I had a long-lived character in the Allanak area, I only knew of one physician type, and I was only in contact with him for a realtively brief while. As far as I knew, he was the only person who could make cures in the entire city at that time, and the only way I was able to get cures out of him was by going on long trips and collecting massive quantities of ingredients.
I was able to have a sizable stockpile of cures made up for myself in that time, but I wouldn't dare say that good physicians are a dime a dozen, or that everyone in Allanak has a pocketful of tablets. In fact, just the opposite, I think getting a crumbly red tablet in Allanak is just as hard, if not harder, then getting a stinkin' lockpick  :evil:

[EvilRoeSlade]

I really don't think there should be a physician subguild at all.  Or if there is, take away brewing and instead give them some other skill.  Maybe uhh... well... I'll get back to you on that.

But anyway, my reasoning is that brewing is a skill with no skill level, therefore unlike other skills, getting it from a sub-guild is just as good as getting it from a main guild.  Also, there is NO main guild that starts out with brewing, every guild that gets it has to branch it.  So why should people get to brew essentially for free just by choosing a sub-guild?

[EvilRoeSlade]

I beleive sub guilds give scan too, that reduces the fear of anyone sneaking about. Maybe that should be a karma sub guild as well hmm?

I'm positive that no sub-guild gets scan.  If you think otherwise, then I'd like to know what sub-guild does.

As for your other thoughts, then in response I'd like to say that in most cases, a sub-guild skill will be far less effective than the primary guild skill of the same name.  Also, the "most powerful" skills, as it were, are rarely available by sub-guild.  The exception to the latter is sap... but since being a warrior/thug is NOTHING compared to being an assassin with a high bludgeoning weapons skill that has branched sap, I don't really see any difficulties with that.

I personally think that brewing goes against this trend, both because its effectiveness in a sub-guild and primary guild is equal, and its far more useful than say, barter.

[Gorobei]

there is NO main guild that starts out with brewing, every guild that gets it has to branch it.  So why should people get to brew essentially for free just by choosing a sub-guild?

There's no main guild that immediately gets clothworking, bow making, jewlery crafting, or any of the crafting skills that come along with subclasses.
There's no main guild that immediately gets pilot, or Bendune, or sap for that matter.
Look at all the people getting free skills.  It's a crying shame.

[Angela Christine]

If physician's were that powerful, wouldn't everyone be one?  Yet most people aren't physicians.  

Sure, brewing is a potentially powerful skill, but is only useful if you have access to herbs.  A whole bunch of herbs, if you haven't played an herbalist before and don't know the recipies.  Many clans won't let you out alone to gather your own herbs, and they aren't interested in gathering matierials for your hobbies either.    If you live in the north and can handle yourself outdoors, it isn't too hard to find basic herbs.  If you live in the south, finding an affordable source of herbs is a pain in the ass.

Bandage making isn't at all a powerful skill, it's like the opposite of a powerful skill.  A money sucking enterprise at best.  You can expect to spend over 1000 'sid before you get even passably good, and if you are selling your finished product to NPC shops you'll probably make 45 'sid for every 40 you spend on cloth.  The only reason you would do this is if you have money to burn, or you actually plan to do a bunch of bandaging.  While your bandages don't sell for much more than the cost of the cloth, when you get decent at bandage making you can make 5 or 6 bandages for the price of buying just one or two bandages.  

It isn't easy to make a living off the physician subguild.  If you live somewhere herbs are easy to come by, there will be several other brewers around, so the finished tablets won't be worth much more than the raw herbs (maybe even less).  If you live where herbs are rare, you will get a better price for you tablets, but you'll pay top dollar for herbs.  The physician subguild isn't, in itself, over-powered relative to the other subguilds.

The main complaint about physicians is that they have made some cheap and easy to get sources of poison less effective.  So what?  If you can go pick up a ****** almost anywhere and rub it on your blade, how effective can you expect it to be?  If it is that common, of course most people will know about the treatment.  I don't think it affects PC poisoners that often anyway.  I have never been poisoned by a PC, I've probably been poisoned by NPCs and creatures . . . I don't know, dozens of times.  Making poison cures a little more common makes exploring a little less dangerous -- not danger free, but a little less dangerous.  Even in the north, I rarely saw characters that carried more than two of any given poison cure, unless they were in the buisness of selling them.  Get poisoned a third time during one trip and you are still screwed.  More herbalists do make the poison skill slightly more difficult to use effectively, but they don't gut it.

AC

[creeper386]

I personally think that brewing goes against this trend, both because its effectiveness in a sub-guild and primary guild is equal, and its far more useful than say, barter.

Hmm... Lets see, I've had characters that even go out side the cities, in the north and the south, never get poisoned, but more often then not they come close to starving because they hardly make any money. With the barter skill you can save HUNDREDs of coins easiely, and I've never had a character that acctually got good at bartering.

Guess it depends how you look at it, but for the most part, I'd say physician really isn't that great of a subguild, and I've had it before, you might be able to make some basic poison cures right of the bat, but basic poison cures, like basic poisons, are basic, and the cures are probably going to be more common then the poison itself.


Creeper, who thinks barter is WAY more powerful then making poison cures.

[Rindan]

i disagree mainly for the reason that I know mayb 5 people that have actually received karma. as the whole concept caters to very social, usually massive-outletted people. and alot of loner, individulistic, or non-social people tend to miss out on karma. (namely because why would an imm watch one guy out in the world when they could watch 10 in a room.)

They will watch that one guy if he is interesting.  If you just wander through the desert typing dismount;kill;skin;get all;mount, then yup, it is doubtful anyone will bother to watch.  If you are more interesting then that, someone will peek in from time to time.  I know that my first character to get any karma was of all things a pick pocket that was very anti-social.  That said, despite the fact that he anti-social, he also had an interesting personality and emoted how he moved through the city and stoled from various NPCs.  The second character that I got karma with was a ranger who acted as a merchant.  He never really did anything of interest and talked very minimally with others.  For the most part, he just went between cities selling to shops at a small profit.  That said, like the thief, he described what he did and I didn't twink out.  Someone was clearly watching.  In fact, of all my characters, my most beloved, long lived, and most social character was the one who never recieved any karma.

Being a loner does not exclude you from karma in the slightest.

[John]

why would an imm watch one guy out in the world when they could watch 10 in a room.

Good point, and this does happen to a degree, but some Imms have said on the GDB they only watch loner's and I know of at least one Imm who does. So your not in a hindrance completely, and as Rindan said, you emote and RP then you'll attract more attention. But yes, there is a slant towards social characters.

[Angela Christine]

i disagree mainly for the reason that I know mayb 5 people that have actually received karma. as the whole concept caters to very social, usually massive-outletted people. and alot of loner, individulistic, or non-social people tend to miss out on karma. (namely because why would an imm watch one guy out in the world when they could watch 10 in a room.)

They will watch that one guy if he is interesting.  If you just wander through the desert typing dismount;kill;skin;get all;mount, then yup, it is doubtful anyone will bother to watch.  If you are more interesting then that, someone will peek in from time to time.  

My suspicion is that many people feel silly solo-emoting, especially if they come from muds where it isn't done much.  They are roleplaying, as in playing the role and having the character do what the character would want to do, but they rely on the coded echos to discribe their actions.  "Hunt" already says you have bent down to look for tracks, that's pretty clear even without any flowery emotes to spice things up.  

I don't think it's an awful habit, I know I emote less when I think I'm alone than I do when I know I'm being observed.  To me emoting is mostly for the benefit of observers, I know what my character is doing and I don't need text to confirm it.  I'm a sluggish typist but a light-speed imaginer, so if I am concerned only with my own enjoyment, I can get as much or more out of it by not taking the time to labouriously type out thinks and emotes.

The trouble is, as Rindin noted, that people who rely on coded echos are boring to watch.  I think that when imms are watching in a godly type manner, they only see the commands you entered, not the room echos (unless they are in that room). "W, w, w, w, dismount, kill critter, skin critter, get all, mount, w, w, w," just isn't that much fun to watch.  So when bored imms are looking around, they are less likely to watch the Non-emotive Loner than to spend time watch entertaining emoters, be they loners or not.  If they don't watch, they have no idea if you are being realistic, spammy, or what.  Someone has to notice you to give you Karma.  Being social enough to join a clan means that at least one imm will have a personal investment in your character, and is more likely to notice you.

I think they've said before that if you get to where you've been playing a RL year and you still don't have any Karma, then it's ok to write the mud account to see what's up.  If there is some nasty stains on your account, they can tell you what the problem is.  If there aren't any comments at all on the account, someone can specifically watch you for a while to give you Karma or feedback about what you need to improve.  I didn't get any karma until I'd been playing about 11 months, and I don't think the characters I played immediately before recieving Karma were anything special, I just plodded along as an average RPer long enough that someone decided to risk some karma on me.

I wouldn't freak out about Karma though.  I know that isn't comforting when you don't have any, but it's true.  Not only are karma classes "more challenging" to play correctly, they are often less fun than non-karma.  Unless your D-elf has PC tribemates, running around alone in the desert gets old pretty fast, and no one in the city or from other tribes wants to be friendly with you.  Nobody likes known magickers, new magickers totally suck skill-wise, especially if they are trying to be secret magickers.  Half-giant, meh, sure being big is fun, but having to have every single piece of clothing custom tailored, not being able to sit at tables, not even being able to enter some tight caves at all, and increasing your skills at a glacial pace isn't fun.  Psions?  I dunno, but I imagine it is alot like magicker, but with the added bonus of risking passing out every time you use your powers -- getting into a confrontation and having to sit down or rest to effectively use your abilities . . . that would suck.  Besides, no one actually has enough karma to play a psion.     If people know you are a karma character, they judge you more harshly.  A marginally played (neither awful nor excellent) d-elf, half-giant, or magicker will take a lot more flack from other players than a human warrior or city elf theif would in the same circumstances.  There is the OOC stress that people think you suck, are planning to add your character under the "worst played X" section of the next poll, or that the imms will decide you can't handle the role after all and take away some of your karma.   :shock:  Sometimes you just want to fun, without feeling presured to put on an excellent performance.

Seriously, since I've gotten some karma, at least half my characters have been non-karma.  I like playing mages on other MUDS, but on Armageddon rangers and merchants have more fun.

AC

[Rindan]

My suspicion is that many people feel silly solo-emoting, especially if they come from muds where it isn't done much.  They are roleplaying, as in playing the role and having the character do what the character would want to do, but they rely on the coded echos to discribe their actions.  "Hunt" already says you have bent down to look for tracks, that's pretty clear even without any flowery emotes to spice things up.  

I don't think it's an awful habit, I know I emote less when I think I'm alone than I do when I know I'm being observed.  To me emoting is mostly for the benefit of observers, I know what my character is doing and I don't need text to confirm it.  I'm a sluggish typist but a light-speed imaginer, so if I am concerned only with my own enjoyment, I can get as much or more out of it by not taking the time to labouriously type out thinks and emotes.

The trouble is, as Rindin noted, that people who rely on coded echos are boring to watch.  I think that when imms are watching in a godly type manner, they only see the commands you entered, not the room echos (unless they are in that room). "W, w, w, w, dismount, kill critter, skin critter, get all, mount, w, w, w," just isn't that much fun to watch.  So when bored imms are looking around, they are less likely to watch the Non-emotive Loner than to spend time watch entertaining emoters, be they loners or not.  If they don't watch, they have no idea if you are being realistic, spammy, or what.  Someone has to notice you to give you Karma.  Being social enough to join a clan means that at least one imm will have a personal investment in your character, and is more likely to notice you.

It is just my opinion, but I think that if you are something like a loner hunter and not emoting, you are either spending a lot of time idle, or perhaps not going about it is realistically as possible.  Even the most fanatical hunters can't but hunting constantly 24/7.  Further, it isn't horrible realistic to drag in half a dozen critters before high sun.  If you just use coded effects, then you are going to only be slowed down by the time it takes for you to keep your mount rested.  So, you are either moving as fast as the code lets you, or your character is just sitting there blankly for long periods of time while you play web based games.

Solo emoting can act as much as a self regulatory device as it can amusement.  If you take your time emoting out a trip, stopping occasionally, and in general pondering the full spectrum of possible challenges one might face on any given trip that are not specifically enforced by the code, you are likely to move at a more reasonable pace.  The world can be traveled quickly, but I personally think it is more of an OOC convenience so that when the Byn need to organize a dozen man mission to the other end of the world it can be done in an OOCly timely manner.  I do not think the intention is to suggest that the world is about as big as a small city that can be traveled in half an IC day.

You certainly can travel without ever emoting once, and I find it doubtful an imm will smite you.  That said, I think that you are going to experience a much shallower game play.  For instance, if you don't bother to emote, going from one place to another is slowed by resting and aggressive NPCs.  The only dangers or obstacles one will encounter will be aggressive NPCs.  Now, if you were to travel from Allanak to Tuluk, do you truly expect to run into such a limited array of challenges?  Hell, if you do it right you can make the entire trip without a single fight, a single event, a single attack, or a single rest stop.  That, in my mind, is not very interesting nor is it terribly realistic.  Some times you might want to travel this way for pure OOC need, but if you don't have the OOC need to be somewhere fast, take your time.

Along the way there are a number of challenges/events that could possibly inhibit your travels:

You could get a saddle-sore / sore feet.
You could over heat.
You could get sand in your eyes.
You could reach the top of a dune.
Your kank could get spooked by a small lizard.
Your kank could insist on stopping to snack on some scrub.
Insects could bother you.
You or your kank could lose its footing in the sand sending you toppling to the ground.
You could run into an interesting landmark (virtual or otherwise).
You could run into fellow travelers (virtual or otherwise).
You could investigate a carcass (virtual or otherwise).
You could get lost in a sandstorm.
The wind could be strong and/or the air could be filled with silt.
You could get pricked by a cactus.
Rocks could get stuck between your kank's carapace.
You could get sand in your boots.
You could sprain your leg.
You could become tired from travel.
You could climb a dune.
You could look out from a dune.
You could stumble down a dune.
The sun could cause you to hallucinate or become delirious.
You could avoid a break in the road/path.

I don't need to do any of the above.  The code will never force you to do or deal with any of the above.  If you want to throw those obstacles or situations into your traveling, it will be purely by your own free will.  In my opinion, until you try and emote/think various obstacles you won't really have an appreciation of them.  All of the above could happen in a single trip.  How often after a long trip do you really consider that any of the above happened?  I imagine that it rarely crosses most people's minds as they are traveling purely on code that anything is happening other then that their kank keeps moving and they keep looking in the direction they are going for aggressive NPCs.

So, can you do things purely through code?  Sure.  Are the imms going to smack you down unless it is blatant twinking?  Probably not.  Try forcing yourself to actually experience a trip other then in the most limited and shallow way the code allows.  You might find up you end up liking it, and you certainly will be far more amusing to watch.

[Master Z]

What I usually do, which I highly recommend, is to always assume someone is watching you. An imm, a hidden thief, an invisible mage, whatever.

You're probably being watched more often than you think, anyway.