psionic contact addition idea

[daedroug]

Ok just an idea but wouldn't it be reasonable to add a code so that if you succeed a contact check but theres no player on with that keyword or name that instead of it looking like a failure you get somthing like "their mind is out of reach" or somthing like that, I just wonder how many times i've actually sat trying to contact some one not knowing whether or not they are actually online.

[John]

:lol:

There is a difference between someone being logged on and failing and someone being logged out. I don't know what it is though.

It use to be long ago that we had a different message for being logged out, but the staff felt it was being abused. Not on purpose, but even the best of players were allowing it to affect their gameplay.

Although having said that it was slightly different in that you got a message regardless of success or failure, but I think they'll keep your suggestion out for the same reason.

[Halaster]

No, for the very reason you stated.  People were using it as a way to find out if someone was logged in or not, which we don't like because that's an OOC thing, so we made them appear identical, intentionally.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I like it the way it is. his way, if you can't contact them after ten times, you just give up, and so be it. You'll never know if they are around or not based solely on the message you get.

[Anonymous]

it's D&D trap check logic.

You, the PC, wouldn't know if you failed the check, or if there's really no trap.

Kind of moots the point otherwise.

[Morgenes]

*CLICK*

*DICE ROLL*

Take 2 points of damage.

*DICE ROLL*

You feel kinda sick.

> think oh shit

[Twilight]

Even after the message was changed, there was a wait state difference when people were offline, and when they weren't.  But eventually that was changed too.

One of the things having any difference would completely screw up would be the usefulness of the psionic skill barrier.  Either it looks like they are logged off, but they are sitting right next to you, so you know they are barriered.  Or it looks like they are logged on, so after you failt twenty times you can deduce they are using barrier.  That would be bad.

[Cuusardo]

People were using it as a way to find out if someone was logged in or not, which we don't like because that's an OOC thing, so we made them appear identical, intentionally.

People still do that anyway.

[Morgenes]

If there is a way to abuse this to determine if someone is online or not, please mail the details to mud@armagedon.org, or use the typo command in game.  This would be against the intentions of our design, and so a bug.

[Larrath]

People were using it as a way to find out if someone was logged in or not, which we don't like because that's an OOC thing, so we made them appear identical, intentionally.

People still do that anyway.

I think Cuusardo refers to people with a high Contact skill going trying to contact Amos three times in a row and using that to determine if Amos is online or not.
That's not a problem as far as I can tell.


It IS possible to tell if someone is online if they happen to share their name/aliases or sdesc with an NPC, but that's fairly rare and I can't think of any way that this could really be fixed.

[Morgenes]

I think Cuusardo refers to people with a high Contact skill going trying to contact Amos three times in a row and using that to determine if Amos is online or not.
That's not a problem as far as I can tell.

I agree, that isn't a problem, they could very well be wrong.

It IS possible to tell if someone is online if they happen to share their name/aliases or sdesc with an NPC, but that's fairly rare and I can't think of any way that this could really be fixed.

While not 100%, I can see how that could be used, and I'm not sure how to resolve that really.  The only thing I could think of would be to somehow require a 'name' (that is a keyword that isn't in their short description) to contact someone.

[UnderSeven]

What if to resolve that issue, Morg, when using a keyword, rather then going to the pc instead of the npc, the code had a slightly random chance of going to either or, that way you MIGHT get the npc first time even if said player is right in front of you?

Maybe other things like barrier could also cause it to assume someone else sometimes?


One of my biggest gripes with contact is it is very hard for someone to lay low.  This might make it a little easier for characters to deliberatly be out of touch.

[Beldin]

Heh, I was just about to make the same suggestion.  I've had experiences where someone might have the same keyword as a couple other PCs and at least one NPC.  Makes it pretty obvious when they aren't online.  It seems like the best solution is that even when they are online, you have a random chance of finding the mind of one of the others with that keyword.  I think that this should only be used in the case of a failure, though, because if there were a randomness as to who you would contact with a success, it would be that much harder for people to actually contact someone.

[mansa]

...The only thing I could think of would be to somehow require a 'name' (that is a keyword that isn't in their short description) to contact someone.

I think that would be awesome.  You would have to adjust the application process to say, 'Additional Keywords that people will use to contact you'.

But then again, those shady people who never give out their real name wouldn't be able to contact.  Unless, of course, in your own mind, you've assumed that the nickname you've chosen is your real name.

I'd like to see the power of your NAME be more prevelant in the psionics of Zalanthas.  It's just a cool concept I'd like to see adjust the world.

[gfair]

It's much better not being able to tell.

[Anonymous]

Heh, I was just about to make the same suggestion.  I've had experiences where someone might have the same keyword as a couple other PCs and at least one NPC.  Makes it pretty obvious when they aren't online.  It seems like the best solution is that even when they are online, you have a random chance of finding the mind of one of the others with that keyword.  I think that this should only be used in the case of a failure, though, because if there were a randomness as to who you would contact with a success, it would be that much harder for people to actually contact someone.

Why?

What about my blind character who has never seen the red hair on your
red haired youth. Why would his mind wonder into the mind of the burly
red-haired mul?


I understand what your saying but I bet there are over a 100 npcs with the
keyword man, if I want to contact the keyword man pc in the room with me
that is just going to be a hassle. Seems hard to explain ic'ly

[Tuannon]

Well, it IS psionics.. maybe the red haired mul has a metal image of himself as a red haired mul?

I dunno.. if it is such a big part of your RP surely you can just ignore superfluous details right?

[Angela Christine]

It is awkward either way.  Being logged in or not is OOC, since you are always logged in ICly.

If you contact someone and know by they echo that they are offline you might act on that.  It would be stupid to do so since they could log in 30 seconds later, but you could act on it.

But if you don't know they are logged out and keep trying to talk to them, which conceivably has IC consequences that should not exist.  If you are trying to contact someone who is not logged in then your stun points are being eroded because of OOC circumstances.  Most of the time that won't have any effect, but occasionally it can.  If you have OOCly eroded stun points and then some jerk comes and punches you in the head, that could cause you to pass out when you would not have passed out if you had full stun points.  There is also the problem of people becoming ICly angry because of an OOC circumstance, if someone can't reach you for IC days it is reasonable for them to become angry, even if the reason your character was unreachable was an OOC one (logged out).  If they knew you were logged out they might make up an excuse why their character didn't want to talk to you after all, but if they don't know that they instead have to make up an excuse for why they are hemorrhaging stun points and you are not responding.

Icky.


Angela Christine

[jhunter]

I like the idea of making it so that a name must be used.
This would have to go along with a big crackdown on people who give false names that they don't have codedly connected to their pc. Like one warning and then a hit on karma for doing it or something. I personally believe that giving someone a false name that you don't have as a keyword to prevent them from contacting you is abusive.

I see it more as, your pc knows them by that name so that's their connection to finding them telepathically.

[Halaster]

Like one warning and then a hit on karma for doing it or something. I personally believe that giving someone a false name that you don't have as a keyword to prevent them from contacting you is abusive.

A good thing you don't write game policy then, because that's just ridiculous.

People can give names that are not keywords all day long if they so choose.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  Now, if someone goes around calling themself Bubba over and over and always introduces themselves as Bubba, but doesn't have it as a keyword, feel free to email in (or encourage them to) to have it added.

[jhunter]

Like one warning and then a hit on karma for doing it or something. I personally believe that giving someone a false name that you don't have as a keyword to prevent them from contacting you is abusive.

A good thing you don't write game policy then, because that's just ridiculous.

People can give names that are not keywords all day long if they so choose.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  Now, if someone goes around calling themself Bubba over and over and always introduces themselves as Bubba, but doesn't have it as a keyword, feel free to email in (or encourage them to) to have it added.

If there's nothing wrong with it then why has the staff said in the past that one could wish up to have a keyword added to someone's pc if they're using it? How is it that there's nothing wrong with it? If you've met them you should be able to contact them right? Just because they gave you a false name that they don't have as a keyword you can't? When you do this you are using an OOC aspect of the game to your advantage. Reeks of abuse to me.

[Halaster]

If there's nothing wrong with it then why has the staff said in the past that one could wish up to have a keyword added to someone's pc if they're using it?

Because that's an option if they want to have it added.  WANT.  Not a requirement.

How is it that there's nothing wrong with it? If you've met them you should be able to contact them right?

That's why you can contact people with keywords.  contact elf lanky black pig

I'm not saying it can't be improved, I'm just trying to say that people who do this aren't abusing the game, necessarily.  I can think of a instance where I did this.  My PC was new, and had no 'aliases'.  Someone asked me my name, and I didn't want to give out my real name, so I just made something up on the fly.  It wasn't a keyword.  I sent in a request to have it added, and it was, but that wasn't abusing the code.

[Jherlen]

You can always contact somebody by sdesc if their name isn't a keyword. Contact was changed a while back to take multiple keywords.

If they had a hood up, gave you a fake name, and you weren't able to find any other keywords from looking at them... maybe you just don't know them well enough anyway. I think it's silly sometimes that you can contact someone you barely know just because you learned their name.

[jhunter]

I can understand the situation you described. I'm talking about those people who constantly do it and never add the alias to their pc. The only reason -not- to add it is to prevent others from contacting you because you know that they can't.
If I know you by a name that's different from your actual name, it shouldn't prevent me from contacting you. Yet, if I've never seen their true sdesc (because of clothing they're wearing..etc..) and they give me an alias that they don't have added, I can't contact them? That isn't right, I still know them by a name, whether it is their actual name or not.

I've done the same as you, with a new pc and made up one on the fly, but I did make sure to mail in to have it added. It's the only OOCly responsible thing to do as a player in that situation IMO.

[jhunter]

You can always contact somebody by sdesc if their name isn't a keyword. Contact was changed a while back to take multiple keywords.

If they had a hood up, gave you a fake name, and you weren't able to find any other keywords from looking at them... maybe you just don't know them well enough anyway. I think it's silly sometimes that you can contact someone you barely know just because you learned their name.

I think it's kind of silly too. But no more silly than not being able to contact someone you've met (whether disguised or not) because of the OOC issue of them not having the alias they gave you as a keyword.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I, on the other hand, wish that you couldn't use anything but their short description and their true name to contact them. There is too much of this using the Way as a telephone. Why in Krath should you be able to Way a person who isn't actually Amos, just because he said he was?

True names have power. They always should. I do not support that changing. In no way do I think your alias should be capable of being used through telepathy to track you down.

[jhunter]

Venomz, a name is just a label that one person has for you. Real name or not it shouldn't make any difference. If you can contact someone just by knowing their sdesc, you should be able to contact them via an alias they've given you.

That said, I honestly wouldn't mind if you couldn't contact people by their sdescs or other keywords and could -only- do it by name. Real names or otherwise.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't agree that a name is just a label that a person has for you. An alias is that. A name is something that you are, something that you agree with and identify yourself as. For instance, you think of yourself as jhunter, and so do I, but if you were to tell me your name was hsmith, then that is what I would think of you as. Yet, in this mental world where psionics take place, you do not exist as hsmith, but rather jhunter. How am I supposed to find you then?

As for using the short desc to find you, if you are a bald dark man, that is what you are, even in your mind. I can find you because that's who I remember. But, if you appear to me as a short pale man, then how am I supposed to find your mind by using how you look, when in your own mind, your own mental presence in the Way, if you will, you are the bald dark man?

You see?

[mansa]

I don't agree that a name is just a label that a person has for you. An alias is that. A name is something that you are, something that you agree with and identify yourself as. For instance, you think of yourself as jhunter, and so do I, but if you were to tell me your name was hsmith, then that is what I would think of you as. Yet, in this mental world where psionics take place, you do not exist as hsmith, but rather jhunter. How am I supposed to find you then?

But, if you use the nickname hsmith enough as a reference for yourself, wouldn't that merge with your brain identity and become your psionic contact?  I tend to think so.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Sure, that is a possibility. However, enough is a relative term that varies from individual to individual. I hardly think that giving your name as Roy to a few templars and a merchant or four when it is really Bill is enough to qualify as enough.

Living as Roy for a couple of years is an entirely different matter, one that I doubt was the situation that prompted this thread.

[Larrath]

I think that making psionic contact work only with truenames and sdesc keywords would only cause trouble to people that want to use fake names on a long term basis.

I won't even go into the nature and power of names because it's much simpler than that.

Code Select Expand


(Employer's POV)
Employer: Okay, what's your name?
Employee: They call me Gringo.

> contact Gringo
Nope.
> contact Gringo
Still nope.

Employer: Right.  Guards!


Not to mention people that want to use multiple names or people that want to use more obvious aliases.  Guilders could face a bit of a problem as a result of this.

And, to put this thread back on its rails, it's also possible for PCs and NPCs to share their truenames.  I still can't see a good solution for the problem where NPCs are contacted if PCs aren't around.  I don't really like the random chance between getting the PC and the NPCs.


Maybe the Barrier skill can be altered slightly so that if people attempt to contact a character with a barrier, and the barrier blocks them, there will be a 15-20% chance they'll get 'redirected' to the next mind that answers the qualifications for what they contacted, be it name, truename or sdesc.

[jhunter]

Yet, in this mental world where psionics take place, you do not exist as hsmith, but rather jhunter. How am I supposed to find you then?

That is a matter of opinion. Not factually the way it is. I've never read any documentation about the way or psionics stating that is the way it works. It is left completely open to many different opinions and interpretations.  You of all people Venomz, who likes to see things documented and coded should understand the difference. This is one area where I believe there is too much left open to the interpretation of the player.

I think that the basic psionic abilities should be more clearly defined as to how they work in this world and the code should back it up. If it says in the documentation specifically that you cannot contact someone without their "true name" or knowing exactly what they look like then fine. Currently, it does not.

[bloodfromstone]

Maybe the Barrier skill can be altered slightly so that if people attempt to contact a character with a barrier, and the barrier blocks them, there will be a 15-20% chance they'll get 'redirected' to the next mind that answers the qualifications for what they contacted, be it name, truename or sdesc.

This is a great idea.

As for the alias/true name business, I don't really think it should affect contact either way. I've never seen anyone use an extended alias without having it as a keyword and staying cloaked up all of the time so that it is impossible to contact them, but it seems a bit iffy to me. This is a way different situation than just giving a fake name once when some militia man stops you. I can see how it would be frustrating, though I like to think it is a rare enough occurance that it isn't really a major issue.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I know it is a matter of opinion, but what is left open to interpretation is what is the topic for now. I do know that a true name is supposed to be something cared for. That much is in the documentation we currently have.

My post was more of an attempt to define the deference between a mental name and an alias, the two being obviously not the same thing. I've never said anything about it being facts, but rather something that made sense to me.

If it is accepted that you should be able to contact someone via the way through the use of their alias, then I suggest that we have access to a new command called nickname. This nickname command would allow the PC to add nicknames to his keywords at will, and delete them equally, although perhaps with a timer of RL days to eliminate using an alias without consequence. This freedom would represent his assuming a new identity, and casting it off again, both mentally and physically.

I am sure this has been suggested before, but I think it's a great idea. I am sure there is some way it can be abused, but I don't think it's particularly likely, and I think the benefits out-weigh the bad.

[jhunter]

I agree.

It should be clearly defined one way or the other whether or not you can use the way to contact someone (with an alias or only with a true name). Currently, it's left as an OOC choice with no IC explaination as to why one can have this much control over the way.
One can choose OOCly, whether or not an alias will work (as far as The Way is concerned). It should not be an OOC choice, it should be something determined by the way psionics works ICly.

I also like Larrath's idea for fixing the issue of abusing the way to find out the online status of another as well.