Why I Don't Like the Accent Code

[N/T]

I've noticed there is a trend to call people with a foreign accent an outsider, particularly anyone in the Labyrinth.  Personally, I don't imagine a great deal of Labyrinth residents are born there; how could an infant actually survive long enough to reach adulthood in such a place?  Furthermore, every single mul inside the Labyrinth is certainly not from there either (since the breeding of muls is a rare knowledge coveted by nobility), yet I don't think they would necessarily be classified as outsiders.  I imagine a great many people who live in the Labyrinth have gone there because society pushed them in that direction, and not because they are from there.  Perhaps they are outlaws who fear the alleyways a lot less than the desert wastes.  Regardless, none of these examples are people who would be coded RinthAccent Sirihish.  So remember the next time you call an outsider an outsider, to say the same thing to that mul NPC standing in the corner, or the one guarding the door, and heck! for all you know that shopkeeper round the alley from you might not even be from the Rinth either, maybe he's a northerner that was enslaved by Allanak and fled into the slums.  If you're walking around clad in jewels and precious silk, OK, you're clearly an outsider, but an accent tells me nothing, especially in "The Highlord's chamber pot, the Labyrinth."

And to expand further on accents in general, I don't particularly like the current setup myself.  Whether I am from Red Storm or Allanak (and in both places a large percentage of the populace has never stepped foot outside their homes to have seen the other), my accent is the same.  Yet if I am from the Labyrinth, my accent is so recognisable, even Tulukis know me for what I am.

I think the accent code needs to be disbanded, personally, and that's not a criticism on anyone's behalf, it's just my opinion.  It's too perfect and too restrictive, as well as very undescriptive.  If I read someone says "Hello how are you" and I am told it is in a northern accented sirihish, what does that mean exactly?  That doesn't tell me anything, it simply means I can abuse knowing where they are from.  Many people belay their heritage in subtle hints, but seeing what accent someone speaks in each and every time they say something is neither subtle nor, in my opinion, is it realistic.  Quite often I don't fully recognise someone's accent in English until they've spoken for a while, at least not recognise it enough to know 100% where they are from.  I'd rather see the players implement how they think a northerner sounds, for example.  Perhaps northerners say 'Aye' or 'Ye' a great deal, and people who dwell along the Sea of Silt (RS, RSE, and tribes in that region) roll their 'r's quite often.  I'm told gypsies have a certain dialect they've incorporated into the game, I think that's fantastic.  In my opinion, the accent code doesn't allow players their own self-expression, and in a RP-intensive MUD such as Armageddon, that's a real pity.  The code submits players into being categorised in a very non-descriptive way, doesn’t that strike you as being too similar to stock Diku MUDs?

In place of the accent code, I suggest a documentation for speaking styles, just as the style of fighting, fashion, and beliefs exists in documentation format.  If there is to exist a code, then it should actually adjust how a player talks, not just say "Southern-accented", or "Rinthi-accented", etc.  For example, if you are coded SouthAccent Sirihish, then perhaps every time you type 'r' in a sentance the code makes it appear to others as a double r, to indicate people from Allanak roll their r's.  Or certain vowels getting dropped, and so on.  It all sounds very daunting to implement, which is why I suggest: let the players incorporate accents in their RP.

Am I the only one who thinks this?

(PS: What really bothers me is that there is at least one player in game who doesn’t even have an accent!  I had one character from the north hear him speak without the accent flag, and my next character, who was form the south, observed him also was speaking without an accent flag.  It’s not fair I say!)

[Boggis]

I've noticed there is a trend to call people with a foreign accent an outsider, particularly anyone in the Labyrinth.  Personally, I don't imagine a great deal of Labyrinth residents are born there; how could an infant actually survive long enough to reach adulthood in such a place?

I've probably spent more time in the 'rinth than anywhere else on Arm. There are room descs describing gangs of wild children I think and anybody who's wandered the 'rinth a bit will know a few more things as well which would lead me to conclude that most 'rinth residents are either born there or have lived there long enough (like from childhood) to have taken the accent. I've always imagined the 'rinth as some really nasty, dangerous slums that nevertheless has groups of families that have kids, etc. Maybe I'm wrong about this. As for calling people with a different accent outsiders - well I've never heard that exact phrase before I understand the sentiment behind it. As a 'rinther -you- are an outsider to just about everybody else in Allanak and many people will treat you with suspicion. I think it's natural that 'rinthers keep that same logic, reversing it for themselves.

I imagine a great many people who live in the Labyrinth have gone there because society pushed them in that direction, and not because they are from there.  Perhaps they are outlaws who fear the alleyways a lot less than the desert wastes.  Regardless, none of these examples are people who would be coded RinthAccent Sirihish.

That's because they are not 'rinthers and they will be seen as outsiders which is what they are. You're describing people who, for one reason or another, have had to turn to living in the 'rinth. As they have not lived there they will not talk like 'rinthers and any 'rinther (who's probably highly paranoid at the best of times) is going to treat them with at least a little suspicion. Who the hell -wants- to live in the alleys? They must've done something wrong or be on the run from somewhere or just plain crazy. My 'rinth characters will always see non-'rinthers as outsiders until they gain his trust. I'd guess that most people living in the 'rinth just want to try to stay alive any way they can and are not necessarily thieves and bandits (again I could be wrong on this - just my view). Hanging around with some "outsider" they've never seen before (it is a small community so it's quite possible to notice new faces I think) who's probably wanted or something might not be the smartest move they'll ever make.

...but an accent tells me nothing, especially in "The Highlord's chamber pot, the Labyrinth."

I think it tells any 'rinther that, at the very least, you didn't grow up in the alleys. People base a lot on where you're from for right or wrong. And referring again to that strong survival instinct Zalanthians possess I don't think many would dare say anything smart to a mul

Whether I am from Red Storm or Allanak (and in both places a large percentage of the populace has never stepped foot outside their homes to have seen the other), my accent is the same.  Yet if I am from the Labyrinth, my accent is so recognisable, even Tulukis know me for what I am.

Heh, I kind of agree with you here. I would imagine that people from Red Storm would have their own accent. I don't mind though about the 'rinth having a different accent. I come from Dublin in Ireland and the accent there can change very quickly in just two miles from a middle class one to a very working class one which sounds -completely different-. I always assumed that the 'rinth was similar. Maybe the lack of a Storm accent could be explained by the fact that 'rinthers don't, as a rule, interact with southsiders whereas people from Storm do trade with the Nak and have people coming back and forth all the time. I don't know... still think Storm and Luirs residents would have their own accent.

I'm told gypsies have a certain dialect they've incorporated into the game, I think that's fantastic.  In my opinion, the accent code doesn't allow players their own self-expression, and in a RP-intensive MUD such as Armageddon, that's a real pity.  The code submits players into being categorised in a very non-descriptive way, doesn’t that strike you as being too similar to stock Diku MUDs?

I hadn't heard about the gypsy dialect before but I agree that it sounds pretty cool. I realise that the code puts a restriction on self-expression but I think it's for the best. The gypsy clan are a small, contained group that you have to apply for. It'd be far harder to police that people are actually observing correct language customs according to their heritage elsewhere in the game. I think the code handles this simply and well giving a broad hint as to your heritage (the rest is left to you to fill in) and only needs a little expansion in my opinion. I think the description is left deliberately bland so the players can fill in how they think the accent sounds to them in their minds. I use various Irish accents myself The main expansion I'd like to see to the code would be the ability to impersonate accents, something which has been discussed before. Maybe make it a random attribute that only certain PCs get with a lucky roll or something to reflect real life. Would be fun for those sneaky infilitrator types

[Fedaykin]

To combat some of what you dislike, I would propose the following:

There be two over all categories of accent, Northern and Southern which are easily recognizable by the populace, meaning rinthi accent would fall in the Southern category.

In sub categories, under Northern and Southern, each major civilaztion center has its own, slightly diverse accent.  Thus under Northern accents, we'd have Tuluki and Luir's accents, along with perhaps some tribal accents, while under Southern accents, we'd have Allanaki, 'rinthi, and Red Storm accents ammong possible others.

Now here is where it gets a little tricky.  Only Southerners would be able to distinguish between the various southern accents, and only Northerners would be able to distinguish between various Northern accents.    This is because there would be more travel within the two regions where people would be more accustomed to dealing with those from outside there own civilization center, so they could readily discern between the slightly varying accents.  However, the majority of Tulukis, for instance, would not have had much contact with the various differing peoples of the South, so they would recognize all the slightly varying accents as sounding almost exactly alike, and thus would only be able to identify a particular accent as Southern, and not city/area specific.

For exceptions:
People with the Linguist subclass would be able to distinguish between all the various accents, given the nature of their subclass.

For those who travel often, just as with different languages, it would/should be possible for them to eventually be able to distinguish between the various accents of the region outside their home region.

Thoughts, agreemnets, disagreements?

[John]

I like the accent system how it is. If I'm from Tuluk all you Luir's and Nakkies sound the same to me. If I'm from Allanak all you Tuluki's and Luir's sound the same to me. The reason I like that system is because Americans and Canadians sound the same to me, so I imagine it's just like that.

The way I see it is it goes like this:
Red Storm --> really strong southern accent
Allanak --> a bit weaker southern accent
Luirs Outpost --> halfway between a Tuluki accent and a Nakki accent
Tuluk --> really strong northern accent

I don't see anything wrong with that. I think if a non-Nakkie comes across a 'rinther accent then they'd have to ask themselves if it's IC to know, but otherwise the system is fine, and people SHOULDN'T feel limited with it. You can implement the accent building aspects that N/T suggested with the current system.

As for linguists being able to tell what city someone's from. I like that a lot. IMO the Linguist class is severly lacking in skills, and it's only advantage is it's more of an RP prop then say a Forester. Linguists could be so much powerful, and this document is a good start, but I'd like to see more things implemented for Linguists.

[N/T]

John wrote:

I like the accent system how it is. If I'm from Tuluk all you Luir's and Nakkies sound the same to me.

Actually, if you are from Luir's, your accent sounds exactly the same as someone from Tuluk and vice versa.  Just as people from Red Storm have the exact same accent as someone from Allanak.  So actually, no, all those Luir's and Nakkies don't sound the same at all, not to anyone's ears the way the current code operates.

I like Feydakin's idea about accent recognition based on location.

And to Boggis:  I'm well aware about the various children groups in the Labyrinth, my point was HOW could a child grow up there?  I was questioning the realism of existing NPC children, actually, not trying to claim there weren't any.

[John]

Actually, if you are from Luir's, your accent sounds exactly the same as someone from Tuluk and vice versa.  Just as people from Red Storm have the exact same accent as someone from Allanak.

You sure about that? You sure a Red Storm person will sound the same as an nakkie TO nakkies? I haven't had much experience up north, but I remember meeting a Red Storm person and having their accent as "southern" (I was a nakkie at the time).

Although I could be wrong, perhaps I'm remembering wrongly.

[Fedaykin]

I believe he was talking code wise.

In the eyes of the code Luir's and Tuluk both have Northern accents, with no distinction between them, the same with Nak and Red Storm being Southern accents.  As such, when someone with the same accent as you, be it Northern or Southern, speaks, you will not see them as having an accent.

[John]

Oh okay. I was talking code-wise as well, but it looks like I got the code wrong and/or the Red Stormer was inserting "southern accent" themselves into everything they said.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Well in that case, I think the accent code should be changed to how I thought it was

That is, if your from Allanak then Red Stormers will have southern accents, and Luirs and Tulukies will have northern, if your from Red Storm then Nakkies, Luirs and Tulukies all have northern accents, etc.

[Lazloth]

Damn, you beat me to the post, Fedaykin.

(a.) I would suggest linguists pick out all accents (being a de facto linguist in real life, I think it's bogus, but we stretch reality!);
(b.) for non-linguists: northerners pick up the southern accent; southerners pick up the northern accent, and that's all she wrote.

Of course, we lose a lot of the possible permutations that may come up down the road.  I know the premise of change accent been suggested before, and it would indeed be neat if accents were treated as 'skills' --

> change accent tuluk
The loosely-bandaged man says in northern-accented sirihish
 "I'm tellin' yeh, there ain't no militia comin'.  Allanak don't give a gimpka shet wut yeh feks are doin'."

The loosely-bandaged man says in southern-accented sirihish
"L'ssee the bang bang powder.  You really got enough ta blow 'um gates?"

Expression stoic, the grizzled one-eyed dwarf looks at the young red-haired man and nods.

The loosely-bandaged man says in northern-accented sirihish
"Great!"

The young red-haired man draws a large bone voulge.
The grizzled one-eyed dwarf begins guarding the north.

> think Oh fek.

(PS: What really bothers me is that there is at least one player in game who doesn't even have an accent!  I had one character from the north hear him speak without the accent flag, and my next character, who was form the south, observed him also was speaking without an accent flag.  It's not fair I say!)

Don't quote me, but I think your ability to pick up accents are directly related to your skill in the particular language.  That is to say, if you are a newbie elf and hear people blabbing in greek, it's all greek to you.  Once you pick up enough greek, you can make the distinction between the greeks!

[Fedaykin]

Also, I do believe characters who have been alive since before the accent code was put in (Those lovable long lived bastards) typically do not have an accent set for them.

However, I could be wrong.

[Barzalene]

What if change accent was a skill with a chance of failure?

The geek says in a bad northern accent: Allanak? Nope. Never been there.

[John]

That was actually shown in Lazloth's post. Notice how he is trying to speak with a northern accent, and it works for the first thing he says, but then when he talks again he accidently reverts back to his southern accent. IMO this is a good way to do a fail, but having "a bad northern accent" COULD work as well, maybe when the failure isn't as obvious.

[Armaddict]

The 'rinth is a disease-ridden slum that's made worse by being lawless.  That doesn't mean that it's going to be too hard for people to raise their kids there.  What it -does- mean is that that kid is going to grow up getting sick a lot, more likely than not, which leads to frailness in their older years.

It's not very likely that they're going to get killed.  Come on, the only people who are going to kill a little kid with no valuables are byn runners and those warriors who suddenly have the urge to 'cleanse the labyrinth'

[Kronus]

I had a character once who, codewise, was a 'rinther, but who didn't spend a lot of time up there. I'm not sure what was going on, since you never hear your own accent, but it seemed to me that regular 'Nakkis didn't hear the 'rinth accent all that often. In fact, the only time someone mentioned it was when the character got mad, and it was like they had never noticed the accent before.
I'm not sure how the code knew I was mad (though accents -do- have a tendency to get more pronounced when people are angry), or if it was just luck, or if the other person was just roleplaying it well, but I though it was very cool regardless of the actual cause.

I guess my point is, your accent doesn't neccessarily show up every time you speak.

[Lazloth]

I guess my point is, your accent doesn't neccessarily show up every time you speak.

I'm pretty sure it does.  I think you just had an encounter with some people that took your speech patterns as rp props.  Find them again

That was actually shown in Lazloth's post. Notice how he is trying to speak with a northern accent, and it works for the first thing he says...

Thanks, John, maybe I wasn't as clear as possible, heh.  Obfuscatory speech is a strength!

[Barzalene]

Are you guys saying I was being a bad listener? Do I have to stand in the corner?

[creeper386]

To me, although it may not be so, but the accent I think sometimes just helps anyways. It's not always speech that makes people seperate, the stitch of clothing would be different, how dirty someone is, certain smells they have, blah blah blah blah. Things things aren't coded. Although sometimes it's quite obvious to see where someone is from because they have very region specific clothing.

It's kind of like using someone's long description to identify them even if they have a hood up and a veil and bandana wrapped about their face. When they still have on the same clothing, that clothing is unique, there are differences between it, along with how exactly that person carries themselves, their voice and various other things that aren't exactly coded.

Now, as for acctually RPing accents, as with what was mentioned in another post, most my characters tend to speak how the general populace about them is speaking, or speaking clearer when speaking with important people, and that coded bit, still tells people I sound like a southerner, or what not. And the accent may not be COMPLETELY just accent persay. It could be non coded things that sometimes people would look over. Southern people could very well have a rougher voice, even spending time inside you'd probably still get alot of dirt and sand in the air, and blah blah blah, lots of tiny small little variables, that *I* as a player, wouldn't trust myself with trying to keep it together..

Creeper who is now done rambling, but thinking there is still a few more posts to ramble on with.

[Lazloth]

Southern people could very well have a rougher voice, even spending time inside you'd probably still get alot of dirt and sand in the air, and blah blah blah, lots of tiny small little variables, that *I* as a player, wouldn't trust myself with trying to keep it together..

By definition, that's not an accent, but I see your point.
I like the current system, but also think it to be somewhat flawed.

[Plazgoth]

Disclaimer: I did not read all the replies to the original message but I will throw in what I want anyway.

how could an infant actually survive long enough to reach adulthood in such a place?

This is fantasy remember? If you want a pretty cool description of something very similar I recomend reading "Ender's Shadow" by Orson Scot Card. The whole series was pretty good in my opinion but that book reminded me so much of the 'rinth.

[Boggis]

The 'rinth is a disease-ridden slum that's made worse by being lawless.  That doesn't mean that it's going to be too hard for people to raise their kids there.  What it -does- mean is that that kid is going to grow up getting sick a lot, more likely than not, which leads to frailness in their older years.

This was exactly the point I was trying to get across in my original post about growing up and living in the 'rinth. If you want to take a modern-day example I'd say look at the slums in somewhere like Medallin in Columbia. People there live in total poverty, there's virtually no work for any of them, drugs, violence and murder are constant dangers yet whole generations of people are born and live their whole lives there. So, in response to N/T I don't see any problem with having NPC kids there. The alleys will take a higher toll on them than other places but I think families would be able to raise their kids there, giving rise to an actual 'rinth sub-culture. Apologies, this has nothing to do with accents so I'll stop rambling.

Oh, I do like Fedaykin's idea about sub-groups of accents to those familiar with the region by the way. Places like Luirs and Red Storm are far enough away from major cities that they would likely develop their own accents. And I'd agree that linguists could recognise all of them.

[Angela Christine]

Oh, I do like Fedaykin's idea about sub-groups of accents to those familiar with the region by the way. Places like Luirs and Red Storm are far enough away from major cities that they would likely develop their own accents. And I'd agree that linguists could recognise all of them.

Hell, Allanak and Tuluk are both large enough that each city could have several distinct accents.  Don't some big cities like London (England) and New York (USA) have districts with distinct accents?  Perhaps not to outsiders, but a native would easily be able to tell that you are from the west side, or whatever.

I think the 'rinthi accent, if it isn't gotten rid of completely, should only show up to Allanak natives.  To most people it would just be a "low class" southern accent.  Heck, I wouldn't mind if the 'rinthi accent were only perceptable to people from the 'rinth, sort of like a thieves cant.  Does Lord Imbreed realy know the difference between someone born on Stonecarver's Road, and someone born in the 'rinth?  It's just a low-class accent.

AC

[Quo]

I think the 'rinthi accent, if it isn't gotten rid of completely, should only show up to Allanak natives.  To most people it would just be a "low class" southern accent.  Heck, I wouldn't mind if the 'rinthi accent were only perceptable to people from the 'rinth, sort of like a thieves cant.  Does Lord Imbreed realy know the difference between someone born on Stonecarver's Road, and someone born in the 'rinth?  It's just a low-class accent.

My fair lady, anyone? Especially Lord Imbreed would notice all those vulgar words and grammatical errors brushing against his refined upper-class sirihish. And he could quite likely tell the difference between "common" errors and broad, lower-class accent. It does stand out, and it's nothing a few years of good company will rid you of easily.

I think everyone has the power of rp to ignore a particular accent if his char wouldn't know where the other was from (other than being a stranger and talking differently). From what I have seen, the calls for more restrictive code (deciding who notices what) instead of applied common sense of the player and ic-knowledge of the char might be going into the wrong direction.
Armageddon imho is the exceptional rpi mud not because of perfect code limiting everything to what was deemed appropriate on a role-model scene, but for the code supplying just basic mechanics, and RP filling in all the rest.  All I have seen until now just confirms that the more specific code gets, the less creativity in RP is accepted and shown.
When code is getting perfect, arguments soon read "the code let me do/notice/... this and thus it is perfectly right if I do/... it". I have seen it go to that extreme elsewhere. Let's keep Armageddon from that pitfall of a mature mud.

[grog]

I ignore accents when I don't think my character would know the difference, and pay attention when I think he would.  

I've always imagined the 'rinther accent a lot like somebody from the bronx, the northern accent being french like, and Red Storm and Allanak having a texan drawl.  Of course I also imagine nobles speaking with a crisp British accent.

(and whenever I go through the marketplace, I get this image of a strong indian and arabian accents from many of the hawkers.  I swear I keep on imagining, "Thank you, come again! " from some of the storekeepers.)