Bulky items

[Cuusardo]

I am SO glad that this has been put in to the game that I could give a big wet sloppy smooch to the person who installed it.  Hopefully this will put a stop to those twinky burglars who clean out entire apartments, including the furniture.  I've always thought it should he VERY obvious when someone's dragging a couch out of an apartment building and down the road.  Woo hoo!

[Delirium]

I as well love it.  Awesome addition.


However.. one small request..

If they're not carrying anything obvious at the moment, could we remove the 'Blah is carrying: nothing obvious' line from the 'look' output?

It just looks really cluttered and a bit jarring, to me.

[mansa]

I as well love it.  Awesome addition.


However.. one small request..

If they're not carrying anything obvious at the moment, could we remove the 'Blah is carrying: nothing obvious' line from the 'look' output?

It just looks really cluttered and a bit jarring, to me.

I'd bug that, Delirium.  Or maybe use the Idea command.  Or maybe the Request tool.

[Anonymous]

i now see this
An inix is reclining here.
- he is carrying a large bag.

i am pretty sure bag is empty, and thus not bulky then the inix, so that might be a bug? or?

[Maybe42or54]

MAGICKERS EVERYWHERE! It is going to take a while to get used to it, I have freaked out three times so far.

A mul is carrying obsidian here.
-He has a few large chunks of obsidian.

Uh.. yea?

[Wish]

I hate the bullet point system of listing magickal effects and think it's tacky and h&s.

This is also tacky.

BUT IT IS USEFUL.

So I forgive.

[Halaster]

I hate the bullet point system of listing magickal effects and think it's tacky and h&s.

This is also tacky.

BUT IT IS USEFUL.

So I forgive.

I like it, because it's straight to the point and useful.  There are alternatives of course, but I like this the best for a text-based game.

We could:

The tall, lanky elf is standing here, carrying a huge, fluffy couch.

But that kind of overrides your ability to customize your ldesc.

What other suggestions do you have if you don't like the current one?

[Marauder Moe]

Perhaps a different character than '-' could be used.

Code Select Expand

The tall, generic man is standing here.
^He is carrying a large fluffy sofa.

The tall, generic man is standing here.
#He is carrying a large fluffy sofa.

The tall, generic man is standing here.
%He is carrying a large fluffy sofa.

The tall, generic man is standing here.
$He is carrying a large fluffy sofa.

[Cenghiz]

I entered the game without reading GDB first. I saw a mul carrying some obsidian and I said "Magi.. obsidian?"

It's a great addition.. Now I don't need to emote about the two large bags I'm dragging for all people who enter and leave. People looking at me will see them.

Edited to add: The message is fairly different from the messages spells add. I don't think it'll cause any confusion when people get used to it. I'm against changing the current system. I want my change ldesc.

[Delirium]

I hate the bullet point system of listing magickal effects and think it's tacky and h&s.

This is also tacky.

BUT IT IS USEFUL.

So I forgive.

I like it, because it's straight to the point and useful.  There are alternatives of course, but I like this the best for a text-based game.

We could:

The tall, lanky elf is standing here, carrying a huge, fluffy couch.

But that kind of overrides your ability to customize your ldesc.

What other suggestions do you have if you don't like the current one?

I actually like the ldesc changer.  If you've got something that bulky in your inventory, there isn't much else you'd want to set as your ldesc anyway, if you're being fair.  

It saves me from constantly doing 'change ldesc stands here, carrying a neon purple basket.' (as I used to do before the change), and looks far less jarring than using the same tags that are used for many magickal effects.

[LauraMars]

The shopping list of magick effects has it's uses, yes, if you want to immediately know what those blinding, glimmering, shimmering, sparkling auras all seperately are, but I think it could be abreviated, put into ldesc.  Because really, seeing the bullet pointed list of many things is a little jarring to the "story" feel and flow of the game.

So, for your consideration:

The superhero sorcerer is standing here, glowing with a bright light.

The paralyzing defiler is flying here, surrounded by a multitude of auras.

When you LOOK DEFILER, then you can get the shopping list of auras, the individual items he is carrying, what his feet are doing and so on.

At the very least, if we must have bullet points, let's keep it to one to try and avoid the powerpoint.

The paralyzing defiler is flying here.
- she is carrying a couch.

The paralyzing defiler is flying here.
- She is surrounded by many auras, and is carrying a mekillot.

The paralyzing defiler is standing here.
- She is carrying many large items.

Yes, I'm sorry for the minor derail and meanderment into magick code, but I think the idea has application in both cases.

[Kalden]

It's awesome as it is, I think.

[path]

I completely agree with LauraMars's take on the situation. The way it is now looks practical, but I think some of the real-time story feel is sacrificed. I'd rather a vaguer description such as she outlines with the ability to follow up with look.

[Intrepid]

I like it the way it is, being able to add in an ldesc.  You never know when you might
need to add even more detail to the scene.

[LoD]

I like it the way it is, being able to add in an ldesc.  You never know when you might need to add even more detail to the scene.

Old Road [EW]

>e

Old Road [EW]
The lanky elf stands here, whistling and looking at the sky.
-he is carrying your dining room table.

[Twilight]

I find it no more jarring than having [NESW] at the end of the room title.

I really like it the way it is.  And not just because I can now walk right past you with my bags and shining magickal aura, and you probably won't bother to read that I do in fact have a shining magickal aura.

[spawnloser]

Knowing what I know about magick, I'm fine with the way things are.  I just have to agree with Delirium on the removing the carrying nothing message.

[Halaster]

While I can see Laura's point about the 'laundry list' and interrupting the flow of the feel of the game, I'm left to wonder how it is any different than your equipment list?

Code Select Expand

A human Tuluki soldier is using:
<worn on head>           a pimp hat
<neck>                   some bling bling
<worn on torso>          a ratty vest
<worn on hands>          a pair of black leather gloves
<primary hand>           a bone longsword
<secondary hand>         a nose-picking device
<worn on legs>           a pair of leather pants from the 80's
<worn on feet>           a pair of bunny slippers

I'm not necessarily against the ideas people are having, I just don't see how they'd help, considering other things.. that's my point.

In fact, back in the day when we first added the extra line for when you see people in a room, the very point was to be jarring.  What is being displayed should be painfully obvious.  More obvious than what they're wearing or anything.

[Delirium]

Knowing what I know about magick, I'm fine with the way things are.  I just have to agree with Delirium on the removing the carrying nothing message.

Yeah... if they're carrying nothing, why show it?  That's my take on it.

[Morgenes]

Mainly because the precedence was set with other things that listed out other people's inventory (peek).  We changed the output to be 'nothing obvious' to make it clear.  We could burn a few more cpu cycles (and time coding it) to remove the message, but you know what, I bet in a week you won't even notice it anymore.

[Anonymous]

This has always been a peev of mine, people treating their inventory as an invisible bag of holding.  Nothing like peeking at some dainty noble's inventory while he or she is sipping win and relaxing and see that they are carrying 3 gaj shells.

I like the change a lot, thanks Morg.

[Delirium]

Mainly because the precedence was set with other things that listed out other people's inventory (peek).  We changed the output to be 'nothing obvious' to make it clear.  We could burn a few more cpu cycles (and time coding it) to remove the message, but you know what, I bet in a week you won't even notice it anymore.

I'll take that bet and raise you a special apped defiler-psionic mul.

But, yeah, I see your point.  My main beef is that, for me, it interrupts that 'story' feel as LM put it.

[Morgenes]

But, yeah, I see your point.  My main beef is that, for me, it interrupts that 'story' feel as LM put it.

I'm with Halaster, I don't see how it's any more jarring than the equipment list.

And yes, I'm from the crowd that would rather see everything written out as paragraphs instead of the neatly formatted equipment lists we have, I agree that the story-mode is more asthetically pleasing, but harder to parse.

If I get enough momentum I may make that be an option (paragraph/story mode) for equipment and inventory.

So instead of:

You are carrying:
42 obsidian pieces
a rough canvas backpack
a few tendrils of shaggy numut vine
a long-handled, flint lumber axe

you would get:

You are carrying 42 obsidian pieces, a rough canvas backpack, a few tendrils of shaggy numut vine, and a long-handled, flint lumber axe.

Feel free to mail me if you would like to see Armageddon this way and if I get enough mail I'll consider adding it as an option.

[elvenchipmunk]

I like the way everything is displayed when looking at someone. I'd prefer it if you didn't automatically get the message they're carrying something whenever you walk into the room, though. I'm sure it might be sort of obvious, but I'd rather it was restricted to being displayed when looking at someone.

[James de Monet]

Couldn't it just be tacked on to the ldesc and then considered to be the "code-generated long description?"  So that, overriding the ldesc would also override the things being held, allowing for customization?  Seems to make sense to me.

Also,

I bet in a week you won't even notice it anymore.

The non-descript man is in excellent condition.

Wouldn't you assume that he was in excellent condition?  I didn't just glance at him down the bar expecting him to be bleeding from his eyesockets.  But no one notices this anymore.  QED?

Editted because formatting doesn't work in Code.

[Delirium]

Much <3 for the little change to output.

(heh, spoke too soon.  Nevermind.)

[Anonymous]

Items with enough weight will show up:

Code Select Expand

The dark-haired man is standing here.
- he is carrying a heavy, carru-hide backpack.

Sure, it's heavy but it's not -large- enough to be obvious and noticeable.

Why not just limit it to flagged items such as furniture or bahamet shells.

[Delirium]

Items with enough weight will show up:

Code Select Expand

The dark-haired man is standing here.
- he is carrying a heavy, carru-hide backpack.

Sure, it's heavy but it's not -large- enough to be obvious and noticeable.

Why not just limit it to flagged items such as furniture or bahamet shells.

Actually I like that bulky packs show up now.

No more magickal floating pack of 98 extra stones storage space that people never emote about or pay attention to.

[Anonymous]

And another note, what about those light agafari chairs? They're big and obvious, yet...don't have enough weight to show up with the code.

[ashyom]

Feel free to typo those, if you feel the weight is too light.

As an aside, we're looking at adding a feature for objects like spears - obviously big, but not heavy.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

When the code was first introduced, you could look at yourself and see which items were appearing as "bulky" on your character. After the MUD reboot by Morgenes, it appears as though you can no longer look at yourself to find out what items appear bulky. Is this intentional?

I'm imagine a character would be aware of how bulky an item is for them, whereas the player doesn't easily know without checking the code (i.e. certain water containers are appearing bulky when filled but not bulky when less full, which is hard to judge).

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I am in full support of this new code.

We are talking about jarring descriptors. I like the idea of using a : instead of a -, but it's really all good to me.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

While I can see Laura's point about the 'laundry list' and interrupting the flow of the feel of the game, I'm left to wonder how it is any different than your equipment list?

When you LOOK DEFILER, then you can get the shopping list of auras, the individual items he is carrying, what his feet are doing and so on..

The suggestions Laura made are apparently related to the room echos and not when you look at someone. The difference between the room echo list and the equipment list would be that the equipment list appears when you look at someone, and the laundry list of room echos appears when you glance in any given direction, or enter a room with someone (or many people). If character equipment lists were shown as room echos, then you could make a comparison, but I think Laura's suggestion right now is just an attempt at clearing the minor bullet point clutter that pulls away from the game immersion in room descriptions.

[Maybe42or54]

Well, can this be added to torches?

The hot, bisexual man is standing here, holding two lit torches.
-he has many a great pile of feathers.

[slipshod]

The problem I have with this is the extra lines it adds to the scroll, even when nothing obvious is being carried.  Sure, there are some people who intentionally wear items on every wear-location, and/or who write up main descs that take the maximum allowed lines, and for those people their gear and main descs are always going to spill enough that you need to scroll back to read it from the beginning.  But I know I personally try to always keep my gear streamlined enough that my character's appearance will fit on one screen when other people look at me.. just an ooc courtesy because it's difficult to always scroll back up to catch that missing top line or two.  Now this adds an extra 3 or 4 lines of scroll to something that was already hard to minimize.  

I like the idea of being able to see bulky items in the inventory, as is, but I strongly suggest that if what it would show is "nothing obvious", the line not appear at all.  Only have it show up when there is something obvious.  We could add a hundred extra lines for all the things people aren't doing.  I'd hope it would be possible, since it is with worn gear.  We don't look at someone and see

The man is using:
<worn on head>     nothing

[Maybe42or54]

Or possibly:

The man is at death's door.
<in his arms> Nothing obvious.

[Hymwen]

I just wish there was a way to tell if you're carrying something visible.

Unless there is? 'look me' doesn't give anything.

[Maybe42or54]

As a side note, I'd rather have something that differentiates itself from Magickering and the normal, loaded down state.

OR I'll start to thinking something like magick is just some Pc loaded down.

The little girl is here, blowing her nose.
-She is hovering above the ground.


The nightmare is here, resting.
:She has a few large weapons.

[LauraMars]

I think Laura's suggestion right now is just an attempt at clearing the minor bullet point clutter that pulls away from the game immersion in room descriptions.

Yes.  This is it exactly, thank you.

I see nothing wrong with combining all bullet points into one somehow, as was my second suggestion.

It's a little ridiculous to pinpoint each and every spell effect in the room description, each and every heavy thing carried.  Some of the lists get quite silly looking.  Efficient though they may be, immersion is sacrificed, and that is the way of it.

...Especially when so many of the magickers I've met don't roleplay out or aknowledge the myriad of auras whirling around them or the fact that they're floating or what have you.  If these things are supposed to be so obvious, so obvious as to need a bullet point, you'd think more people would incorporate them into play.  I can see the same problem affecting the heavy lifters in the future, but that is another topic entirely - one to do with the player's approach to roleplay, and not the parsing or format of effects and weight.

/my opinion

[Fnord]

As a side note, I'd rather have something that differentiates itself from Magickering and the normal, loaded down state.

OR I'll start to thinking something like magick is just some Pc loaded down.

The little girl is here, blowing her nose.
-She is hovering above the ground.


The nightmare is here, resting.
:She has a few large weapons.

Agreed.

-----------------

And from a few pages ago about Morgenes asking if we like the idea of inven story mode: Please don't make that change. Even if it's jarring to some, the playability wins out, imo, just like with equipment lists.

-----------------

Overall though, great change. You guys have really been on a roll lately.

[Cale_Knight]

As a side note, I'd rather have something that differentiates itself from Magickering and the normal, loaded down state.

OR I'll start to thinking something like magick is just some Pc loaded down.

The little girl is here, blowing her nose.
-She is hovering above the ground.


The nightmare is here, resting.
:She has a few large weapons.

I don't think I've seen a single bulky description that could be even remotely confused for magic.

[Delirium]

It's the '-' before the description of what they're carrying, CK.  We're used to associating it with magickal effects.

I nearly had a heart attack the first time I saw that mul on Caravan Way.

[Cenghiz]

Same here.. Maybe it becomes '+'? Anything else? I was about to run away from a mul slave when I first saw the change.

[Cale_Knight]

Like all code changes which are difficult to come to terms with at first, they quickly become second-nature and commonplace.

Right now, the dash simply means "something noticeable about the person."

If we start adding different characters for different things, it's going to become way more confusing in the long run.

[Delirium]

I agree.

I'd still like to see the 'bulky item' message appended to a code-generated ldesc instead.

Code Select Expand

The tall, thin elf is here, carrying an immense obsidian table.

[Marauder Moe]

The '-' used to mean "you notice something magickal".  Now it means "you notice something magickal" OR "they're carrying something big".  The problem is, one of these things should cause most characters to react with alarm while the other is commonplace.

I think that this newly added ambiguity is more confusing than simply adding an new character marker.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've been thinking ... using the & sign would do nicely, I think.

Code Select Expand

The large man lurks in the corner with a pipe in his mouth,
& he is carrying the body of a blue-eyed man.

[Delirium]

In that case, why not just append..

Code Select Expand

The large man lurks in the corner with a pipe in his mouth, and he is carrying the body of the blue-eyed man.

That would allow you to change your ldesc, while retaining the ability to immediately notice a bulky item.

My main beef is the same as it's been throughout this thread - the dash feels too out of place.  

I'll get used to it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

<shakes her fist defiantly>

[Cale_Knight]

I think that this newly added ambiguity is more confusing than simply adding an new character marker.

Meh. It's not ambiguous at all. You just need to react to the text rather than the dash.

[Morgenes]

I'd still like to see the 'bulky item' message appended to a code-generated ldesc instead.

The main reason this wasn't done is people can carry more than one bulky item, possibly several.  We didn't want to wrap the screen with:

The uber twink is skulking here, carrying a few heavy baobob chairs, a statue of a woman, a large chest, a full backpack, a few heavy iron balls, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Instead we scroll the screen vertically

[Marauder Moe]

And I don't think that having a different character would be confusing at all as the following text would make it's meaning clear.

[flurry]

One other problem with using the ldesc (sorry if anyone mentioned this already) is that someone could be injured and carrying something bulky.  And then the ldesc would get pretty clunky.

I like the change, although a different character than - wouldn't hurt, as far as I can see.

One other thought that came to mind, when I saw this change, is that this could be the solution to the oft-mentioned situation of the naked PC.

a scrawny, wart-nosed dwarf is here.
- He is naked as the day he was born.
- He is carrying a bulky, mek-leather couch.

[Marauder Moe]

To further my case for an alternate character... let's face it: Armageddon presents us with a LOT of text and over time players' eyes learn to ignore much of it.  Having a special character mark a section that can have many different meanings with different levels of significance forces you to read more than you should have to at a glance (>look).  

Would having several different types of roomdesc attribute marks like this:

Code Select Expand

The generic old sorceror is sanding here, striking a dramatic pose.
-He is engulfed in really cool magick flames.
-A tiny, evil-looking demon floats about his head.
+He is carrying a yellow, rolled-up tent.
+He is carrying a long, pink beach umbrella.
^He is armed.
^He is naked.
really be worse than

Code Select Expand

The generic old sorceror is sanding here, striking a dramatic pose.
-He is engulfed in really cool magick flames.
-A tiny, evil-looking demon floats about his head.
-He is carrying a yellow, rolled-up tent.
-He is carrying a long, pink beach umbrella.
-He is armed.
-He is naked.?

It's the same number of special characters, except with the first one you can easily discern which types are immediately relevent to you.  Like, if you came across him in the desert, you'd probably be worried about his evil magick, but if he was your buddy living in the cave next door and you see him walking about on fire every day you'd wonder why he's naked and carrying a yellow tent.

Also, I would be in favor of grouping attributes by type.

Code Select Expand

The generic old sorceror is sanding here, striking a dramatic pose.
-He is engulfed in really cool magick flames.  A tiny, evil-looking demon floats about his head.
+He is carrying a yellow, rolled-up tent.  He is carrying a long, pink beach umbrella.
^He is armed.  He is naked

[elvenchipmunk]

I don't think I've seen any reply that answers this question, so...

I think it would be a lot more clean if you only saw if they were carrying large objects by actually looking at them.

Either that or you only see -gigantic- objects automatically (like a bed or dresser, though this seems fine the way it is because you'll already get the message: ...is here, carrying the bed), and you see smaller, but still large objects when you look at them. That would represent you actually staring at them a moment, instead of automagickally seeing what they're carrying.

I don't think carrying a basket or backpack would be so obvious that you need an automatic tag. Just for the really bulky things like chairs and tables.

So...maybe up the weight it takes to qualify as a bulky object, or flag certain awkward objects that would be noticed no matter what?

Another idea could be when you look at someone and you see their equipment, you could have something like:

Code Select Expand


look guy
This guy is a guy. He is by no means a girl, but a guy. He is guyish, and has guy features. Do not mistake him for a guy.
The guy is in sexcellent condition

<worn around body>     a guyish cloak
<worn on legs>         furry pants
<worn on feet>         furry boots
<carrying>             an elephant
[and if needed...]
<carrying>             another elephant
[etc.]


Could work, non?

[spawnloser]

One of the points to this change, oh long-necked rodent, is that these are things you SHOULD notice almost immediately.  You walk into the room and some human that is strong enough to carry a couch has one in his inventory...should you have to get a close look to see this couch, or would the fact that this guy has a couch under his arm be the reason that you look at the guy in the first place?

[elvenchipmunk]

Seeing things automatically is fine, I simply think you should only see the things automatically that are large (like a couch, bed, chair, etc.) Other than that, I have no idea what to do about the output when it is actually put to the screen. Just not
"-", IMHO.

[amoeba]

I'll weigh my 2 inflated sid in here a moment.

For me I have zero problem with the way the code was implemented.  I find it succinct and easy on the eyes. I read to see if this is something of concern.  I do however understand that there are people that like to have certian things stand out for them.  I'm all in favor of having them do this on the client side, but using the same bullet point does not give the ability to create a regex statement to parse out the item they want to stand out.

In this I would support having a seperate bullet symbol to differentiate magickal verses mundane effects. Just please make the bullet something bullet-ish looking. Something like *, #, or +.  No %, ^, or &. And I would keep it limited to two types, magick or mundane.  This way they can get their client to have magickal effects stand out and sing a song if thats what floats their boat.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

And I think that & is the least jarring to the game.

[Lazloth]

Use your client to change {- %1 is carrying} to something else then; gah, the whining.

Neat addition, though I'm in the camp that thinks ldesc should get wiped to reflect the bulky item(s).

EDIT:  Actually, on second thought, I'm assuming a <look direction> will show the information if someone is in an adjacent room carrying a mainframe - nix above for consistency.  Verticals all the way.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

When the code was first introduced, you could look at yourself and see which items were appearing as "bulky" on your character. After the MUD reboot by Morgenes, it appears as though you can no longer look at yourself to find out what items appear bulky. Is this intentional?

I'm imagine a character would be aware of how bulky an item is for them, whereas the player doesn't easily know without checking the code (i.e. certain water containers are appearing bulky when filled but not bulky when less full, which is hard to judge).

Again, is this intentional?

[Xygax]

It was intentional, yes.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

It was intentional, yes.

I think the GDB cut off your explanation, for some reason.

What was the reason, again?

[Xygax]

You asked if it was intentional, not if I had an explanation.  I don't, and I didn't make the change, but I am certain that the change was intentional, because I specifically remember it being discussed.

-- X

[Flaming Ocotillo]

You asked if it was intentional, not if I had an explanation.  I don't, and I didn't make the change, but I am certain that the change was intentional, because I specifically remember it being discussed.

-- X

Thanks for the info. That was the part I thought got deleted from your post, but I appreciate you sticking it in.