Lord Whiran Fancypants? (Question about an uh-oh!)

[BlackStabbath]

Heyo, me again, still working on my addiction and indulging in the helpfiles to keep me from looking like a complete noob while I learn the world with experience. =D

Was reading over the Nobility helpfiles and the Magicker FAQ, and it kind of dawned on me of the possibility that a noble child, especially in the South, might possibly be born with magicker in it's blood.

How would that be handled?

-Would the child be killed?
-Would it simply be sent off to a temple, and stripped of it's name, with any who speak of it paying dearly?
-Would the mother/father/both be blamed and perhaps outcast/killed by their  House?
-And if certain of the above were to happen, and the child lived, would it ever be a viable concept that the PC be born of noble blood and no about it, but be forbid to speak it, while only certain higher-ups would know about it?

Though I suppose such questions are geared more towards Allanak, where from what it seems, in Tuluk, both child and mother might disappear, because no self-respecting Tuluki noble would hae a common play-toy, and you know the father wouldn't take the blame. =P

Discus.

EDIT: Err, and when you're done with discus, feel free to discuss. >.<

[Halaster]

Basically, the average commoner would have no idea what happens to them.  No one's really heard of a mage noble, so you can surmise what you want from that.

[ale six]

Most (but not all) magicker elementalists seem to display physical traits giving away their element. (This isn't a steadfast rule, just a trend I've noticed, so it may not be true in all cases.) If a child DID display any sort of mutation or magickal ability, though, my guess would be that the nobility would most likely kill it. The docs say something somewhat related:

Midwives are accustomed to the making the choice whether or not a child should live, depending on the lethality of his or her mutations, a fact that explains the high incidence of "stillbirths" among the nobility, who are less tolerant of appearance outside the norm.

I don't know what would happen to the parents, but having your child turn out to be a mutant/suspected magicker would most likely not be good.

If anyone of noble lineage were ever found out to have magickal abilities, the scandal of the matter would be something that even in Allanak could probably have MAJOR reprecussions for a House. Nobility are supposed to be seen as better people simply because of their blood -- if that blood is breeding magickers, what are other nobles and the city going to think? If I were a senior noble, I wouldn't take the risk of leaving a magicker in my House alive to possibly become trouble later.

Of course, you could always special app and see if the staff would buy it.

[Larrath]

I won't answer most of these questions since they might be a little too IC.

As a PC concept, magicker nobles aren't accepted because, in the past, this apparently resulted in nobles just locking themselves in their rooms and spam-casting instead of doing noble things such as maintaining their clan and, uh, mudsexing.
Technically speaking, magicker nobles appear to be possible in Zalanthas, but they're extremely rare, also because any noble caught with the ability would be disposed of at the earliest opportunity.

As far as PCs go, magicker nobles aren't accepted.  With that said, nothing is ever impossible - with enough responsibility, planning and coordination with the staff, it's probably possible to make an elf that rides kanks (or, alternately, a kank that rides elves), too.

[Synthesis]

I'm just wondering why people seem to think that a noble elementalist would be killed.

Keep in mind that nobles aren't as uneducated as commoners and hire magickers openly.  From this, we can surmise that they are probably a little more savvy as to how to treat them.  Magick isn't necessarily considered abominable by the (Southern) Nobility, because they're educated enough not to irrationally fear it.  Now, if you have a young elementalist who is related to you by blood and who has everything to gain by -following the rules- and -not rocking the boat-, why wouldn't you let them hang around and do their magickal things for the benefit of your House, as long as he's not doing anything that would be considered inappropriate?

The only reason I can surmise is if Tektolnes or the Templarate issued a decree at some time in the past that all magickers of Noble blood are to be killed.  Failing this, I'd imagine that Noble-born magickers would be treated exceptionally well, given access to all of the most expensive components and instructed by the most experienced elementalist masters.  

Now, they might not be allowed to marry or produce (official) offspring, and they might have certain House-imposed restrictions on their movements, etc., but I see only one good reason why they'd be killed outright (see above) and I've never encountered any information that would lead to the conclusion that it is the case.

Elementalists are extremely powerful and extremely useful tools.  Having one completely and unquestioningly loyal to your cause (as a blood relation could be, if raised properly) is about the nicest thing anyone could drop in your lap.

Hell, if I were a Noble, I'd be secretly getting it on with magicker chicks and spawning my own little bastard magicker black ops platoon.  Maybe let one of the senior nobles in on the scheme and get a little extra pension to support my magicker spawn.  Then impress the entire House with my ability to get things done, etc.  It'd be a long-term plan (have to let the little bastards develop, after all), but damn--if everything went according to the plan, it'd be mighty nice, indeed.

[Marauder Moe]

If magicker nobles aren't killed, then they must not ever be born in the first place, because (as stated) no one has ever heard of one.

Only one house openly and frequently hires magickers.  Policies for the other houses can change, but magicker hiring (open or otherwise) is very rare among them.

Education doesn't neccesarily cure fear or hate, especially when the educated truth about magickers is that they ARE freaking dangerous.

Commoners are to believe that nobles are superior.  Commoners are to believe that magickers are tainted.  A magicker noble would be a contradiction.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Though I suppose such questions are geared more towards Allanak, where from what it seems, in Tuluk, both child and mother might disappear, because no self-respecting Tuluki noble would hae a common play-toy, and you know the father wouldn't take the blame. =P

No actually.  Sexual discrimination isn't standard fare on Zalanthas.

I just thought I'd point that out.

[Synthesis]

Marauder Moe:

1. The fact that no-one has ever heard of something does not imply that this something does not exist.

2. Only one House openly hires magickers on a long-term, salaried basis.  Other Houses (even Merchant Houses) will hire them for other tasks--maybe not openly, but they will hire them, nonetheless.

3. If Tektolnes says the magickers are okay, then the Nobility can't really do much, other than agree.  Given that they must accept their existence, it seems that they would do more than simply come to terms with the fact:  they'd want to use it to their advantage.  The way to do this is -not- to shun them and maintain complete ignorance.  Noble Houses didn't become powerful by doing silly things like allowing fear and hate to govern their actions.  Yeah, they're dangerous, but it's a manageable dangerous, like muls, half-giants, poison, and the legion of commoners running around with sharp-edged and pointy objects.

4. A magicker noble would only seem to be a contradiction to a commoner.  Hence keeping them isolated.  Hell, most Nobles would probably like never to leave their estates, anyway.  The ones that do are simply doing so to maintain their power and influence and to get things done.  If you didn't have to worry about your influence, and the only things you needed to get done involved study and practice casting...you'd never need to leave your estate, would you?  As long as you weren't causing earthquakes in the estate or setting the furniture on fire, the slaves and servants wouldn't even know your secret.  You'd just be "the odd young Lord who never leaves his chambers."

[Bebop~]

I don't see Tektolnes saying gickers are okay so much as allowing them to survive for his own gain if they ever require them.

Magickers are still taboo among the majority of commoners.

One question - Aren't southron templars magicky?  Or is this to much of an IC question?

[Marauder Moe]

Tektolnes doesn't say that magickers are okay... he says that they may exist as slaves to the templarate.  That's hardly a mandate for equality.

As for fear and hate... I really don't see why you think nobles are immune to them.  Templars or Tektolnes himself either, for that matter.  They fear and hate the Tuluk, right?  They fear and hate powerful defilers, right?  Most fear and hate magickers too.  The only difference is that Tektolnes figured out a way to (mostly) control magickers and channel their power productivly and they aren't an immediate threat.  A noble magicker, unless gemmed, would be an even greater threat.  He'd have all the knowledge, privacy, and time to become extremely powerful in the ways of magick.  No way Tektolnes would tolerate such a threat.

Also, by your logic, a halfbreed noble would be accepted too.  Afterall, elves are allowed to live just the same as magickers.  Hell, they don't even have to get gemmed!  A truly educated noble would know that elves and half-elves live longer, are quicker, and a little smarter than normal humans.  It'd be great to have a bastard half-elf noble who's loyalty can be completely assured.   :roll:

[spawnloser]

Synthesis, I can think of at least one southern noble house (open for play) that has a policy stating that they do NOT hire magickers.  Kadius does not hire magickers.  I just thought I would correct you on this.

[Intrepid]

The Senate notes imply that Rennik has been trying to get the Elementalists' Quarter
cordoned off for years.  I doubt they're doing it for the protection of the magickers
either.

As far as why someone might think that nobles kill magickers, it's assumed they kill
off mutations.  Nobles are very picky about breeding and appearance, so even some
minor mutations might be treated badly--let alone a filthy magicker.

[Cenghiz]

I never thought I would ever agree with Synthesis.. But I do..

To spawnloser: Kadius isn't a noble house. But you're still right. Different houses have different policies and there are houses that don't hire magickers as a rule.

But Synthesis is totally right. No commoner has ever seen a magicker, but those commoners also didn't realize a few ungemmed magickers of mine were magickers. They don't have the spell 'detect magicker noble' so maybe some of the nobles we see around are magickers. We cannot know.

So maybe noble babies with affinity to elements are kept, only they're forced to keep their identities hidden. Maybe they're killed. Maybe they're left in front of one of the temples' gates. As Halaster, we do not know and we can only speculate.

[Cegar]

I figure that if a magicker were born to a noble, it would be considered a bastard and treated as such. Not nobility, but not common - pretty much under wraps.

[bloodfromstone]

One question - Aren't southron templars magicky? Or is this to much of an IC question?

I always assumed, from an IC perspective, that it is the will and power of Tektolnes, not "magick". This doesn't mean that in actuality they aren't the same thing. Just the way I always thought it would be viewed. I might be wrong on this.

Anyway, magickers are scum and dirt and terrible, horrible things by most's perspectives. That doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't noble magickers, but they would certainly be a political liability. Regardless of their superior knowledge and power, nobles still rely on the commoner populous' support to some degree. That is why nobles always put on events and sponsor people. Their House's influence over the masses is important, and the masses hate magickers.

[Synthesis]

Marauder,

Every citizen of Allanak exists fundamentally at the pleasure of Tektolnes.  Some are more restricted than others, but it doesn't change the fact that they exist and live within Allanak simply because Tektolnes allows it.  Further, I never said they were treated equally, this is simply a straw man.  I wrote "Tektolnes says they're okay" because it's simpler than writing "Tektolnes allows them to exist within his city as long as they adhere to a rather strict set of rules and they do not engage in any other sort of activity that the Templarate may deem detrimental to their cause."

The whole spiel about Tektolnes and the Templarate hating and fearing Muk Utep is an equivocation centered around what exactly "fear" is.  Yes, it is quite possible that there exists no thing which is immune to fear or incapable of hate, generally speaking.  However, there are different types of fear, and there are different levels of hatred, and these things can have vastly different causes and effects.  You cannot possibly believe that Tektolnes' fear of Muk Utep or the Dragon is as blind and ignorant as the average commoner's fear of magick in general, yet this is what you attempt to do by using it as an analogy.  Furthermore, I never said a noble magicker would not be gemmed.  Of -course- he or she would be gemmed--nobles may get certain privileges, but elementalists are simply too powerful to be given complete leeway.  Finally, (as far as anybody knows) Tektolnes allows elementalists within his city to rise to whatever level of power they can achieve, so long as they do not threaten his dominion by their actions or their mistakes.  He tolerates this threat of magickal power among commoners, who have no special relationship to him or his Templarate...why would he not tolerate it amongst his appointed Nobility, who owe everything to his grace?

Halfbreeds are completely different than elementalists, and you engage in  a hasty generalization here.  Simply because one generally disliked thing is allowed does not mean that another generally disliked thing will be allowed.  There is one glaring reason that I can think of why Noble Houses would want to keep their human blood line completely, beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt pure.  Furthermore, an elementalist noble is a vastly more useful thing than a generic half-breed.  Sure, half-breeds may be smarter and faster, but even pure-blooded elves aren't so fast and intelligent that they become imminently useful tools that should be kept around, even at high cost.  Elementalists, on the other hand, can BURNINATE or perhaps even summon elemental legions of DOOM to do their bidding.  These wouldn't be schmoes kept around simply because the nobility is nice to their offspring...these elementalist nobles would be well-treated members of their family, subject to certain precautionary restrictions--kept around because they could possibly turn out to be tremendous "aces in the hole" under the right circumstances.

And again, I'd like to reiterate that all of this may not matter if there is simply a tradition of killing elementalist nobles, or if there is some sort of edict issued by Tektolnes that no such thing may be allowed to live.  If neither of these is the case, then I can see no reason why a Noble House would slaughter one of its own.

So, roll your eyes all you want, but you're the one making glaring errors in your arguments, not I.

[ale six]

Whether Tek permits them or not, the social stigma about magickers is still a very real thing in Allanak. Several noble Houses perpetuate this stigma themselves by refusing to hire magickers, etc.

If nobles were to keep ungemmed elementalists around (family or otherwise), and the templarate were to find out, I don't think the consequences would be pretty. Nobility are not that far above the law where they can get away with supporting ungemmed mages.

If on the other hand, you had a gemmer trying to claim noble station, they would probably be treated with shock and revulsion by the other nobility, their own servants, and very likely other members of their own family. I can't imagine why any House would take the social and political risks involved with gemming one of their members.

I'm not saying a magicker noble could never exist, I'm just saying it seems extremely unlikely given the makeup of Allanaki society. The fact that nobody has ever seen one speaks for itself. Either they aren't there or they're kept a very tight secret.

[Larrath]

I'd like to steer this discussion away from Tektolnes and what he allows and disallows.
Tektolnes is two things as far as this discussion goes:
1. Vastly powerful - this means he can afford, if he wanted to, to be basically have any sort of magicker of any power live in his city and be able to threaten absolutely nothing whatsoever.
2. No fool.

Public opinion is very important to the Noble Houses.  Joe Schmoe isn't important, but as far as groups go, I'm willing to bet that if Tektolnes had to choose having every single Noble in Allanak disappear or to have two thirds of the Commoners in Allanak disappear, Tektolnes would have his templars groom new commoners to make a new Nobility.  According to Allanak's documentation, the reason why House Fale possesses its mid-tier rank is its great public influence and popularity.

There is a reason why magickers in Allanak have a much lower status than what logic says they should, and there is a reason why people are actively taught to fear and hate magickers.  And hey, commoner magickers are useful as hell too - and, in addition, they're also disposable, which nobles aren't (not as easily, at least).
Because nobles are supposed to be adored and looked up to while magickers are looked at with fear and contempt, having a gem-wearing magicker is a big problem, and having a magicker go around without a gem is even worse.

If you have a noble magicker, especially one without a gem, the noble houses could start entering very bitter and brutal wars.  And if the senior nobility is even slightly educated about magickers and gemmers (which I strongly believe they are), they would prefer to kill their nobles over letting them run around with gems.
The potential use of a magicker noble fails to outweigh the downsides, and as it is it's perfectly possible to go to the Elementalist's Quarter, pick a gemmer that looks loyal enough (this is very easy if you're friends with a templar) and do what you need with them.

[Cenghiz]

I want to repeat again. No mundane has 'detect magicker noble' spell. Maybe a senior noble magicker trains daily in his own apartment which's barred to intrusion of elements of all types. Maybe elementalist type X or defiler Y saw it once or twice but didn't tell it to anyone or s/he was not believed.

I'm not saying there are magicker nobles but if there were, a common hunter would never know. And I repeat again, as Halaster mentioned in his post, it is never going to be common knowledge. So I feel this thread's lacking reason. All we can do is to speculate. We will never know, if we knew, we're not allowed to tell it here because it's not common knowledge. Period.

[Xygax]

While more educated than the rest of the population, the nobility must also concern themselves with appearances more than the rest of the population, and one of the aspects of appearance that matters to them is how they appear to those uneducated commoners.  Unfortunately, this often means that the beliefs of the common populace must at least appear to be the beliefs of the nobility.

That said, I am not specifically saying that the nobility do one thing or the other with their magickally-cursed offspring (if any such offspring even do occur), just that it is possible that their education might not be the overriding factor in their decision-making.

-- X

[aruna]

Tektolnes is a power-hungry sorcerer-king. I think it's relatively safe to assume that the political structure of Allanak is set up in such a way as to eliminate any possible threat to his power and dominion over his city-state. As far as I see it, the only reason commoner elementalists are allowed to exist (aside from their usefulness in inspiring fear and hatred into the masses) is because by definition commoners have virtually no political power. If a commoner elementalist were to begin to work their way up the political ladder, I'm willing to bet that they would be disposed of in due course.  

This is why I can't reasonably believe that Tektolnes would permit a magicker noble to live. While nobles are certainly Tektolnes' puppets, they also wield considerable economic and political power, most importantly through affecting popular opinion. Also, envy aside, I think it's entirely possible that one good reason the nobility have this affect on the masses is because they're not magickers, and that's certainly a comforting thought when considering their alternative superiors, which brings me to the Templars.

The Templars carry out the will of the Highlord, who (as has been stated in this thread and others) grant them magicks to help them in their tasks. I can only assume that granted magick can also be taken away as Tek deems appropriate.  Why, then, would He ever let an incredible liability such as a magicker noble exist when he can use and control his Templars to do whatever it is he would have wanted it alive for in the first place?

[SirHelpsAlot?]

I love looking at threads like these and all the player 'statements' about how things 'are' in the world, so definitive, so final... "This is the way the world is..." yadda yadda. Like the blind men who are feeling different parts of an elephant.. the one at the leg is saying 'it's a tree!' the one at the tail is saying 'it's a snake!' the one at the ear is saying 'it's a sailboat!' All of them are so sure..

More often than not these threads just ramble on with people arguing over subjects they truly have no grounded knowledge in.. It's like a battle of whose guess feels more accurate.

Someone actually claimed to be able to answer the questions but wouldn't because of their IC nature... I'd truly be surprised if they had the real answer.

Thankfully however, this thread has TWO staff responses that do a really good job of actually answering the question from an informed position without tossing out the old 'find out IC' line we've all grown to love so much.

So, wild speculations aside, the answer to the original question is clear: Unless you meet a Noble-Magicker, assume they simply do not exist.  The reasoning behind this can be anything your little commoner mind can come up with.

Next topic?

[Dalmeth]

More often than not these threads just ramble on with people arguing over subjects they truly have no grounded knowledge in.. It's like a battle of whose guess feels more accurate.

So what?  That's life.  It's fun.  Grab some popcorn and watch the show.

[Marauder Moe]

Indeed it is fun.  

Anyway, Synthesis, my interpretation of your posts (call it a straw man if you want) seems to say that you think nobles don't have fear, hatred, predjudice, or other irrational motivations and beliefs all because they're educated.  From my opinion, from my interpretation of the docs, and from my experiences in-game, that's just plain wrong.  Nobles may believe they're infalible.  Commoners may believe nobles are infallible.  By modern real life standards, though, they are most definitely not.

Now as for the difference between half-elves and magickers, it seems to me that it's only a quantifiable difference, not a qualified difference.  How about mullish nobles?  Muls can be just as useful and terrifying as a magicker.  Maybe even more so.  Oooh, or sorceror nobles?  My point is that usefulness does not always win over stigma, at any degree.  In addition, blood does not garauntee loyalty.

Oh, also

Furthermore, I never said a noble magicker would not be gemmed. Of -course- he or she would be gemmed

As long as you weren't causing earthquakes in the estate or setting the furniture on fire, the slaves and servants wouldn't even know your secret. You'd just be "the odd young Lord who never leaves his chambers."

and then

So, roll your eyes all you want, but you're the one making glaring errors in your arguments, not I.

That last bit wasn't neccesary.

[Sir Diealot]

blah blah etc.

And this guy called -me- an asshole.

[SirHelpsAlot?]

Sir Diealot wrote:

SirHelpsAlot? wrote:
blah blah etc.



And this guy called -me- an asshole.

I rest my case.
*reaches out, strips the word helper from beneath Sir Diealot's name and tosses it on the ground*

[Larrath]

Enough with the goddamned flaming.

[ale six]

Enough with the goddamned flaming.

Yeah. Seriously. The only thing worse than a flamer is someone who flames while hiding behind anon posts.

edited because I quoted the wrong post

[Aldiel]

One thing also to consider is that the talent can come into fruition at the onset of puberty or later.  With this said, it is quite possible for a noble to have magickal powers, but how that is handled, would be something you would have to find out IC, as Halaster stated above.

[Aldiel]

Who is this SirHelpsAlot?  Unmask yourself.  :x .  Please have more respect for the other players on Armageddon.  Whether you agree fully with another player's conduct or not, try to be respectful and patient with them.  Also, I hope this Sir Helps Alot and Sir Diealot are not one and the same as I am beginning to believe. *chuckle*

[Xygax]

They aren't one-in-the-same, and I know who SirHelpsAlot? is, and I'm not terribly impressed with the attitudes of either poster.  One aspect of adhering to the "no flaming" rule is not being drawn in by other people's flames.

This thread is close to being locked.

-- X

[jcarter]

Fads/style are fickle and really one of those things that can't be predicted. Let's pretend a noble with blue and red streaked hair is not killed by his noble house and grows up and parades around Allanak. It's a strange mutation. Now, what will happen?

On the one hand, it might be one of those exotic-yet-hot sort of things. If the noble plays their cards right, they might be able to get even more attention and be remembered better to the people and their superiors due to their distinct characteristic, as opposed to the round-chinned and brown-haired brother of theirs. They might even be able to make having streaked hair cool, because it's so exotic.

On the other hand, it might be shunned for being different for the reasons listed in this thread. Magicker-baby, whatever. Again, style and fads are very whimsical and there's no telling what could happen. It comes down to the attitude of the noble.

Let's go and say this noble is a magicker. Again, there are so many things that could happen it's just so fucking hard to predict. If they're good, they may be able to study and study and study and become the greatest elementalist ever or whatever, because of all their resources. Like the fashion thing, they may be able to spin it into a good thing. On the other hand, they might just be an embarassment to their family. It's really one of those things that's just up in the air and works on the cooperation of the clan imms and the players. I think labelling it one way or another though is too hard to do.

[BlackStabbath]

The idea of my post wasn't to look for a concrete answer in the idea, as I am sure that in a world so vastly influenced by the playerbase, there might not be a defnitive answer.

I would have posted in Ask the Staff if I wanted that.

You're certainly welcome to give your opinion on how you feel it might be seen by the family of said youngling, and I would be thankful because everything I get to read about it helps my understanding of the game world that much more.

I love looking at threads like these and all the player 'statements' about how things 'are' in the world, so definitive, so final... "This is the way the world is..." yadda yadda. Like the blind men who are feeling different parts of an elephant.. the one at the leg is saying 'it's a tree!' the one at the tail is saying 'it's a snake!' the one at the ear is saying 'it's a sailboat!' All of them are so sure..

More often than not these threads just ramble on with people arguing over subjects they truly have no grounded knowledge in.. It's like a battle of whose guess feels more accurate.

Someone actually claimed to be able to answer the questions but wouldn't because of their IC nature... I'd truly be surprised if they had the real answer.

Thankfully however, this thread has TWO staff responses that do a really good job of actually answering the question from an informed position without tossing out the old 'find out IC' line we've all grown to love so much.

So, wild speculations aside, the answer to the original question is clear: Unless you meet a Noble-Magicker, assume they simply do not exist.  The reasoning behind this can be anything your little commoner mind can come up with.

Next topic?

[spawnloser]

So, someone can't say that they're amused by speculation?  I'm amused by speculation.  On many topics, people's speculations and assumptions are often quite amusing.

[Sir Diealot]

Sir Diealot wrote:

SirHelpsAlot? wrote:
blah blah etc.



And this guy called -me- an asshole.

I rest my case.
*reaches out, strips the word helper from beneath Sir Diealot's name and tosses it on the ground*

*checks Helper label* Looks like its still there, kid.  Keep trying!  Someday you'll realise that, while you hate me, I could care less.

I enjoy the speculation brought up by OP's post.  I also like to see player input, coupled with staff input as the game would be nothing without the interplay between the two groups.  The idea of a magicker noble is a curiosity to me, and something I'd considered, and thought long and hard about.  Not to play, simply because I'm curious as heck about that sort of thing.

Does Bosrail secretly keep an Aunt who's a magicker, to help with the Muls.. and slave training?  Does Oash's tendancy to hire magickers mean they harbor secret magickers in their family, and so view them with less of a stigma?  Are Templars really just magicker Nobles who are impressed into the Sorc. King's service?

All in all, its a fun topic to discuss, and I really enjoy all the various ideas.  I figure it'll never happen because of the spam-casting-in-your-room syndrome, but that doesn't mean NPCs won't be.  

So, my point of view is that its up to your commoner's speculation, really.  At least, in 'nak.  In Tuluk, the Party Line says that all good citizens of Tuluk are non-magickers.  And, since the Nobles are Muk's Chosen..  Well, it'd be unlikely that magickers survived there.  Its interesting, and I may even create a magicker character who has an unnatural curiosity about such things for some reason.

[Angela Christine]

Make 'em templars, that's what I'd do.  Character classes don't actually exist in the world, so there is nothing to say that you can't be a Krathi and a Templar (or a Whiran and a Burglar, a Vivaduan and a Warrior, etc.)  He can suck power for some effects from an elemental plane rather than leeching off the God-King all the time?  Fantastic!  Once said King is hooked into the Templar, suppressing the tell-tale elemental effects should be a trivial bit of magick, and teaching the elemental-Templar that she has to pray before casting a spell wouldn't be hard at all.  

The Kings are powerful, they might even be able to siphon off ALL of the elemental energy and re-direct it for their own personal use.  Devoid of any elemental energy to draw on, they effectively are not elementalists any more.  Problem solved.  Those metal rings that each and every noble owns might actually be devices designed to drain off magickal energies and direct them to the metal-clad tower (the highest building in the city, and one that bares some resemblance to a lightning rod despite the lack of lightning in the area).  With every noble proudly wearing their house ring, it wouldn't matter what age their powers would have manifested at, because they will never manifest at all.

There could even be a test that would detect unmanifested elemental affinity in children.  Presumably the link is there from birth (or before), it isn't something that you can DO to an adult to force the link.  It would be a tricky bit of magick, not something every blue robe in the street could do, and so not something that would be remotely practical to try on every child in the city.  But there are only a few hundred nobles alive at one time, a single Templar could easily manage to find time to test every single one.  Perhaps even do it secretly, remotely or as part of some ceremony like a baptism or coming of age ceremony.


There are a lot of possibilities.  Find out IC probably isn't going to help in this case, so I guess it stays a mystery.


Angela Christine

[SpyGuy]

I think AC hit the nail on the head, if IMMs even know an answer.

If a House, and I mean any House, found out a child was a magicker they'd probably just hand them over to the templarate.  Only Oash accepts magickers in the least, and ungemmed magickers are dangerous to everyone.  And a gemmed noble would be a horrible embarrassment.

Best that they at the very least just up as an esteemed templarate magicker not knowing their real heritage.

[Dalmeth]

Actually, I can find it quite believable if the king executed any templar found to exhibit magickal ability.  If Tektolnes wanted them, he'd get them, and as a general rule of thumb in ruling empires, you want all the power of your subjects to come from you, so that they are totally dependent on you.

Think about a templar with magickal ability.  He can practice all he wants and probably has a greater access to knowledge on the subject.  He can probably send people to get whatever supplies he needs as well.  Lastly, a templar commands people, builds loyalty.  With all these factors, a templar with magickal ability can become a threat to the stability of the city, and we know what happens to threats to the city.

[mansa]

I thought they changed and introduced a 'NOBLE' guild?

[Sir Diealot]

There is no 'noble' guild.  At least not that I was allowed to choose back when I played one.  It'd be great if there had been.  I had to choose a guild that didn't fit at all, just to choose a guild and continue with cgen.

[spawnloser]

Yeah, I remember the 'noble' guild.  Don't know what happened to it, though.

[Angela Christine]

Actually, I can find it quite believable if the king executed any templar found to exhibit magickal ability.  If Tektolnes wanted them, he'd get them, and as a general rule of thumb in ruling empires, you want all the power of your subjects to come from you, so that they are totally dependent on you.

Think about a Templar with magickal ability.  He can practice all he wants and probably has a greater access to knowledge on the subject.  He can probably send people to get whatever supplies he needs as well.  Lastly, a Templar commands people, builds loyalty.  With all these factors, a Templar with magickal ability can become a threat to the stability of the city, and we know what happens to threats to the city.

Meh.  Assuming that the Elememplar isn't an idiot, he won't be a credible threat.  

Sure, like any other elementalist he can develop significant magickal power that doesn't depend on the God/Sorcerer-King  (GSK).  Unlike most elementalists, but like other Templars, he will also have significant mundane power, in the form of a generous paycheck, the ability to gather bribes and fines from commoners, and the ability to command at least a few soldiers.

However, at least a few of his spells, likely a few of his favorite spells, WILL depend on the goodwill of the GSK through his Templar-link.  If your god given abilities grant you the ability to heal yourself or shoot fireballs out of your ass, you are going to be reluctant to give that up without a good reason.  I sure would.


Being a Templar is a pretty good gig.  I think most people would be reluctant to give up that "sure thing" to try going toe to toe with the mighty Black robes, and the slightly less mighty but still pretty damned impressive Red Robes, a whole bunch utility Blue Robes, a passel of tame gemmed elementalists, not to mention an entire mundane army in a bloody civil war.  Even if you get past all that, you still have the Highlord waiting in his tower, along with whatever surprises he keeps up there.

There are a couple scenarios where he might go for the gusto:

The Templamentalist becomes completely insane.  

The Elememplar's connection to his elemental plane is so strong and so complete that he becomes a not-entirely-human Avatar of that element.  He probably isn't entirely sane in the human sense at this point either.

Sure, those could theoretically happen.  Anybody can go nuts, but when a regular Templar goes nuts the GSK can quickly shut off the magickal tap and deprive the Templar of magickal abilities, allowing the matter to be handled by a couple Blue Robes and their HG attendants.  A Elememplar will still be able to fire off a few impressive spells even without the grace of the Highlord.  Sooo . . . it might take a couple Red Robes and a whole platoon of soldiers to take him down?  Maybe even a Black Robe and a militia Special Ops/SWAT unit.  Followed by a bit of spin doctoring to explain what "really" happened to the masses.  That would be inconvenient, sure.  You wouldn't want to let things get that far out of hand.

It wouldn't get that far out of hand with a little careful handling.  

1)  Carefully choose which Ministry the Elememplar is going to serve.  To the commoner on the street a Templar is a Templar, but things are more complicated than that.  Most Templars do not directly command many soldiers.  It appears that any Templar can command a small group of street soldiers in the short term, but he can't just take control of a large section of the army, and all of the soldiers he can command will abandon him if a recognised officer of the Ministry of War or a higher ranked Templar tells them to.  You put him someplace where he will be useful, but not necessarily in a position to make contact with dissidents or command a lot of mundane authority.

A Templar in, say, the Ministry of Mining isn't going to have the opportunity or authority to command large groups of soldiers.  At best he will be able to cultivate the personal loyalty of a handful of soldiers that he deals with on a regular basis.  

Assign that Vivaduan to the White Robes, working in some part of the water distribution network.  He may have some abilities useful for finding clogs, priming pumps, detecting sabotage or impurities, or just topping up the tanks.

I'm sure there are Templarate positions that rarely or never deal with the public.  Templars that never leave the Templar's quarter.  Templars that spend most of their time in the mines, out on the farms, in the Great Library, inside the bowels of the Arena, in the kank breeding facilities,  or in other isolated locations.  There are probably even Templars engaged in arcane activities that hardly ever deal with other Templars, much less the public at large.  Those aren't the kind of Templars played by PCs, because it would make for really dull game play, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist virtually.  In some of those positions elemental abilities could come in handy on a daily basis, in others the elemental potential might not be exercises at all, but simply kept in reserve in case it is ever needed in an emergency.



2)  Assign a more powerful Templar (Red Robe or Black Robe) to serve as his Mentor and/or watch dog.  A few hours a week should be all that is necessary to make sure that the Telemenalist is sticking to the party line, so this would be a very small part of her duties.



3)  Have a fail safe.  A good, paranoid GSK should have these on every Templar!  You've already got some kind of magickal/psionic hook into your Templars that allows you to funnel magickal ability to them, right?  Make that hook multi-purpose, and you are good to go.  Instead of just shutting it off when a Templar goes bad, you can shunt a power overload down the line and literally explode the Templar with magick.  Or reverse the polarity of the link and instead of feeding power you suck the Templar dry, leaving only an empty husk.  Or simply rig some sort of explosive, poison, magickal trap or other nastiness into those Templar rings, robes and  medallions so that you can efficiently kill or neutralize any wayward Templars -- and incidentally also take care of any imposter's that somehow acquire a Templar's gear.  (I know that -I- certainly wouldn't try on a dead Templar's gear, I

might try to sell it, but never try to wear it.)[/list]
If I were a God/Sorcerer-King I wouldn't tolerate other sorcerers, but I could certainly find use for elementalists and even a few psis.  Of course they would have to be carefully monitored and controlled, but Templars are closely monitored almost by definition.


I'm not saying that nobly born elementalists would automatically become Templars.  I'm not even sure if it is possible or if the elemental link would preclude the Templar link, mystical stuff can be funny that way.  But I wouldn't be sure that it is absolutely never done unless Tektolnes told me that Himself.  Hmm.  Actually, Tektolnes is a lying, patricidal bastard  so I probably wouldn't believe him.    Also, Tek is a fictional character from a game, so if he starts talking to me I should probably get my head examined.   Ok, I wouldn't believe it was impossible unless, say, Sanvean said it was impossible.  



Angela Christine

[Dalmeth]

Templars are knights.  Knights are essentially a trained warrior class.  The same goes for samurai.   Both knights and samurai were essentially disbanded in favor for mass-produced armies as the societies they served, and oftentimes disrupted, moved to more centralized forms of government than the feudal system.

Tektolnes's knights have a nifty addition : all their power comes from him!  There's no way they can maintain their authority and usefulness without him.  There's no chance of rebellion, and that's what the big deal is about.  That's how the sorceror kings manage to keep a centralized government.

If one of the templar rebelled, they could have a small army at their backs.  This army might not simply try to take over the city, but one or two of the farming villages.

History shows that people do try this.  It's inevitable.  While the idea that the templar might be put under close watch has a lot of finesse to it, finess doesn't win in the long run.  Brute force always bears out in the long run.

There may be some benefits to having a templementalist, but they can be covered by the normal elementalists and still have that social stigma that keeps the bastards dependent on the central government!  Fun, isn't it?

There's a thousand different ways someone can screw with stability of the city state.  Why make it a thouasnd and one?

[Anonymous]

History shows that people do try this.  It's inevitable.  While the idea that the templar might be put under close watch has a lot of finesse to it, finess doesn't win in the long run.  Brute force always bears out in the long run.

Our history may prove this to be true but our history doesn't have sorceror-kings, I think they change things quite a bit.

There's a thousand different ways someone can screw with stability of the city state.  Why make it a thouasnd and one?

One templar is going to have a hell of a time affecting the stability of the city state when we're talking about 500k people including magickers other templars and a pissed off tektolnes.

I have no clue if it's true but I'd believe that the Sandlord has a better army than any Templar could muster and he sure seems to know his place.

What's more while taking a village is all well and good and they could hole up in medieval times the logistics of surviving a siege against a very nearby and comparatively well-stocked army.  Just issues with water alone would make it a lost cause before it even started.