Desert elves

[Anarchy]

Now, I have been told now and then that desert elves tend to keep to themselves and very rarely visit any city simply because it frightens them, but i am left asking about Luirs Outpost, it is a nomadic outpost, and given the known-world isn't all that large (on the grand scale) would it be acceptable for people to find d-elves visiting Luirs over places like Tuluk and Nak more often, or are most tribal desert-elves so self sufficent and iso that they would never go to any city - town - village - etc?

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Definetly would depend on the tribe. *shrug*

[Maybe42or54]

Depends on the tribe. A lot don't like to leave the Homelands, some do it everyday.

[Hymwen]

It depends on the individual elf/tribe, but many will occasionally visit cities to trade. Since Luir's is the closest, and probably the least hostile, this would most likely be the preferred place for desert-elves to go if they had to visit a city.

[Anonymous]

My interpretation has always been that desert elves (and nomadic people) did not deign to visit cities, in general, less out of fear than out of no need. Of course, political climes change.

Most tribes are self-sufficient in the desert and lands. Self-sufficient means that they have their own food, their own weapons, their own entertainments, their own water...

Why would they want to go into the city?

It's crowded. It's loud. You can't trust anyone. People do everything differently there. Most of the goods that city people make aren't practical for use in the desert, with a handful of notable exceptions. But people trade little rocks for things and they jabber in that sirihish tongue. And good lord, all they do is sit on their arses in a tavern and drink! Most of 'em wouldn't know a carru if they woke up with an antler shoved up their arse...

Now, this is a pretty seriously conservative view. Not every tribe is going to work this way. There are plenty of opportunities for nomadic clans and trader clans to venture into cities and outposts who wouldn't be as survivalist as the above. In some cases, tribes might live in small, static villages, for example, or they might trade with city people for little rocks so they can buy better quality weapons, different kinds of hides or goods, stock to replace or expand breeders in herds, exotic fruits once in a while, baubles, and occasionally clothing-- if it's practical and cheap enough.

Regardless of the tribe in question's bent, though, the one valid reason that most groups have to enter a city or outpost is a neutral ground on which they can trade goods with other tribes. And if you can do that without the other elements bothering you, great fun. Do it all the time. But in most cases it doesn't make sense for a tribal to go into the city so he can indulge in tavern-spotting like the rest of the city-folk, or with the objective of becoming richer than your average Kadian. Most tribals wouldn't give a tinker's damn about what a noble or a templar wants (most), because it doesn't affect them in their daily lives.

[Maybe42or54]

Vices are a great reason to go into towns also. D-elves like spice, sex, booze, and gambling like anyone else.

[Anonymous]

Vices are a great reason to go into towns also. D-elves like spice,, sex, booze, and gambling like anyone else.

Yeah, except you don't technically have to go into the cities for most of this. I know of several tribes who have such things within their tribe/clan setup, as there are brewers, etc.

But I'd say this especially applies to desert elves because a good trick is a good trick, regardless the victim. It's just more of a challenge (and worth more on the cool scale) if the trick is against someone who has half a chance or knows what's going on.

[Maybe42or54]

In the cities, it is more centralized. So you don't have to go tribe hopping.

[Anonymous]

http://www.armageddon.org/ic/tribal.php

You will read some trade frequently and some don't. Also states the cities they tend to trade in.

[John]

Yeah, except you don't technically have to go into the cities for most of this. I know of several tribes who have such things within their tribe/clan setup, as there are brewers, etc.

IMO those are bad tribes (from a gameplay point of view), unless they need to go into the city for other reasons.

IMO any tribe that is completely self-sufficient is a tribe that will be boring for players. A tribe that is self-sufficient except for what they can get from other local tribes (that are often unpopulated by PCs) might as well just be self-sufficient. An example is the halflings, do they need to interact with anyone else for anything? If not, why not just go and play on a seperate mud?

If people want that "have no contact with anyone else" experience, it's great for them having it. But do people really want that?

[Anonymous]

IMO any tribe that is completely self-sufficient is a tribe that will be boring for players. A tribe that is self-sufficient except for what they can get from other local tribes (that are often unpopulated by PCs) might as well just be self-sufficient. An example is the halflings, do they need to interact with anyone else for anything? If not, why not just go and play on a seperate mud?

Here's where I'll agree with you and disagree.

On one hand, yes. It makes much more sense from a gameplay perspective for everyone to have a good excuse to interact with everyone else in the world.

However, by suggesting that a truly isolated clan who does not deign to visit the citystates is boring to a player, you are clearly missing out. It is infinitely possible for such a clan to be entertaining to players, and for them to have greater impact on the world at large (even in ways that other people can see and notice and participate) without having to be exactly the same as a city dweller.

Furthermore, to address your question of 'why not just go and play another mud', I would counter with 'why not just make another tavernspotting city-dweller'?

The reason that such hard-core isolation clans should exist is to give players an opportunity to explore a very different way of playing Armageddon. A very different culture, and exposure to things that are not available to normal characters.

If you play something like this correctly, it works.  Honest.

[Yokunama]

http://www.armageddon.org/ic/tribal.php

You will read some trade frequently and some don't. Also states the cities they tend to trade in.

Some tribals leave camp and only return on a weekly, monthly, or yearly basis. Also, there are some descriptions in cities that give off an ornate tribal scene and feel.

There are several reasons a tribal individual/camp could visit a city.

Just thought I'd add my two 'sids.

[Anonymous]

There are several reasons a tribal individual/camp could visit a city.

Just thought I'd add my two 'sids.

I agree. But I do think there's a balance to be retained. People who are tribals should retain a different cultural bias, a different rp style, and a different culture overall. Otherwise, the only thing that makes you different than any city-born character is your clothes and your funny accent.

And I don't necessarily think that's the best way to encourage tribes to interact with others.

[jmordetsky]

I break this down into IC and OC.

If you've played a D-elf in a tribe that is in a down swing PC wise then you know what "never" going to a city means. Lots of Solo-RP or skill twinking which is like masterbation, It's fun for a little while but eventually you want someone else for some back and forth.

So, OCly, I say if you are alone and bored, go. Make a reason to go. In fact, if I was your clan imm I would find a reason for you to go.

ICly, D-elves would probably avoid the city save for trade runs which they would probably only make in large groups. If you and a few PCs sibblings are bored, again, go. Do it.

My motto, which has kept me playing for a long time (though others might tend to disagree) is play realistically until you want kill yourself. Once you are so bored you want to kill yourself, do whatever it takes to keep yourself amused without ruining the game for everyone else.

[Hot_Dancer]

Depends heavily on the tribe/location/goods desired.

Hot Dancer

[Jakahri]

Depends heavily on the tribe/location/goods desired.

I agree. If you have no need to go to a city (be it for trade, information, etc) then don't go. Part of the fun of roleplaying a desert elf in my opinion is the isolation and loneliness at times that you will have. It's part of the overall experience. I wouldn't suggest a desert elf to anyone who minds bouts of solo-rp.

So, OCly, I say if you are alone and bored, go. Make a reason to go. In fact, if I was your clan imm I would find a reason for you to go.

I think this is bad advice, yet I do see your point. I understand that it is very difficult at times to have fun playing only with yourself. (no pun intended, j) However, with that being said I think everyone should make an honest effort to not let ooc factors sway ic decisions. Even if you make up a reason to go (which I find cheesy in some instances)  

[Anonymous]

I think everyone should make an honest effort to not let ooc factors sway ic decisions.

That's very noble but we aren't talking about someone deciding their peace-loving krathi will start blowing up every lone newbie they see because they are bored.  Except for extreme circumstances I don't begrudge someone who props up the weakest excuse in the world to go to a center of play just to get some interaction.

[Jakahri]

Except for extreme circumstances I don't begrudge someone who props up the weakest excuse in the world to go to a center of play just to get some interaction.

Oh I don't either CRW. We all get bored. And hell, after all, it's just a game.

[jmordetsky]

Except for extreme circumstances I don't begrudge someone who props up the weakest excuse in the world to go to a center of play just to get some interaction.

Oh I don't either CRW. We all get bored. And hell, after all, it's just a game.

I mean it's an art not a science right? You can't really make a rule that coveres everything by saying "stay Ic" or "do whatever seems fun" because it's too rigid.

If we are going to give a guidline, I think the best rule of thumb you can give anyone is, "read the docs, try to stick as closely to that as possible. If you are bored and isolated, stretch things but only as far as it doesn't ruin the game for other people."

If your D-elf is bored and lonely and suddenly gets the IC curiousity to "see the big city" no one is going to tell you that you are bad person. If you are the only bynner in the byn and you are solo RPing chores all day and ready to jump out your office window and suddenly decide you are going to visit redstorm or sneak around the rinth, again, imho go have a good time.

The other important factor is let your clan imms know when and why. I think thats probably the most important piece. A quick email saying:

"Ocly, I'm really bored no one is around in my timezone so ICly, my char soandso has decided that they've never seen the city and against the advice of the elders has snuck off the Luir's to see what it's all about. If you see him in a bar doing spice and buying whores this is why."

Doesn't hurt and it gives your imm the option of creating some IC consequences for your actions.

Those are my thoughts. But you shouldn't generally listen to me. I'm a twink and a horrible one at that.

[spawnloser]

I have four small things to say on this matter.

1 - As has been said, it depends on the character/tribe as to whether entry to city is IC or not as has been stated by several people already.

2 - There is a permanent presence (in the form of NPC merchant) in a primarily human populated location.  (Which one, I will not say.  Find out IC!  Heheheh.)

3 - Trade doesn't necessarily mean for required items.  Wanted items can be sought as well.

4 - In response to the 'ISO clans may as well be another MUD' comment:  no, because ISO does NOT mean no interaction.  Little social interaction, probably.  There are other forms of interaction from sauntering into the city and having a drink at the bar.

[John]

4 - In response to the 'ISO clans may as well be another MUD' comment:  no, because ISO does NOT mean no interaction.  Little social interaction, probably.  There are other forms of interaction from sauntering into the city and having a drink at the bar.

Heh, okay. I probably could have expressed myself a bit more clearly. What I meant was that "a tribe that doesn't have built in reasons to interact with outsiders is a poorly created clan" (IMO). Now that's still arguable yes.

Take the halflings for example. AFAIK they have absolutely nothing to do with outsiders, except for eating those that enter the Grey Forest. Now assuming that's true (quite possible it isn't), they can still have interaction with the outside world. Perhaps they have item X which is needed to defeat Bad Guy Y. That's a really simple plot to get halflings to interact with outsiders. There are at least three possible ways to go about it, which are:
* Steal it from them
* Convince them to give it to you
* Convince them to help you defeat Bad Guy Y.

And the halflings will temporarily come to the forefront, and affect how the plot develops. But then at the end of the day, they go back to their Forest and the world goes on it's way. The only other way to affect the outcome would be to have trade or other non-ISO clan things happen. The interaction for that imaginary plot though wasn't a built-in part of the tribe. It was an outside influence. Outside influences creating interaction with a clan will mean that there isn't much of anything the players within the clan can do to spur interaction. They're self-sufficient, they have no needs for the outside world. They can only be reactionary when it comes to the outside world, and the outside world will only interact with them in very specific plots, which means that whilever the clan is ISO with no need or reason to interact with outsiders, outsiders will only interact with them when they need to for a plot. And plots are only temporary things.

As for other forms of interaction, well there's raiding. But if they only raid in their area then their area must be on a common trade route. I can't think of any other forms of interaction. There's:
* Very specific plot driven (which IMO aren't an inherent part of a clan but must be actively thought of and actively put into place)
* Trading (goods and services)
* Negotiations with local tribes (although these are primarily PC-less and once the negotiations are up, it'll result in trading or ignoring each other)
* Raiding/Keeping outsiders away
* Eating

The common trade routes are:
* Red Storm to Allanak
* Allanak to Luir's Outpost
* Luir's Outpost to the Elf Outpost
* Luir's Outpost to Tuluk

Are there others? Sure (such as Cenyr). But they're not commonly gone to by PCs. And AFAIK no iso-clans exist on any of the trade routes I listed, so killing outsiders in their lands is out of the question except for the odd PC who goes exploring or a plot-driven clan going somewhere.

What other forms of interaction am I overlooking?

[ale six]

I'll side with John here. I find tribal clans (d-elves, halflings) to be for the most part foreign and alien to the rest of the game and only limited in their ability to interact with the other PCs. I wish we could either give these tribes more reason to come to where the majority of players are and do things, or give players more reasons to play city-based hunters/explorers who'll at least come back to the Gaj after their romping and adventuring and bamuk-hunting.

Would it be so unrealistic, after all, for a d-elf tribe to trade its way through Allanak and hear word about the 5000 coins Lord Oash is offering to whoever can bring him <insert exotic desert item here>? The elves would probably laugh and think this is an easy steal, maybe <exotic desert item> is found everywhere in their tribal lands. Elves are probably smart enough to know that the pile of black coins can be traded to the stupid city people for lots of water and good weapons etc. At least in this hypothetical situation we've given the tribals something to DO that other PCs outside their tribe can work off of. I'm sorry to stereotype, but it feels like lots of tribals like to just frolic around their homelands in isolation and not do much else.

[Maybe42or54]

I'll side with John here. I find tribal clans (d-elves, halflings) to be for the most part foreign and alien to the rest of the game and only limited in their ability to interact with the other PCs. I wish we could either give these tribes more reason to come to where the majority of players are and do things, or give players more reasons to play city-based hunters/explorers who'll at least come back to the Gaj after their romping and adventuring and bamuk-hunting.

That makes D-elves stay in their homelands even more. It was very upsetting when you can take a load of hides common to your lands and go south/north and everyone, even the NPC merchants say, "We have enough of those. My hunters just brought in 8." Pcs should have more fear when they enter areas like this to make D-elf interaction more probable. I've seen and shadowed people who run in, hunt, leave. Run in, hunt leave. I've seen atleast 5 people do it. Why? They don't think anything is going to happen. So they do this and it robs them and City merchants of interaction, since ther eis no need for it.

[Synthesis]

Isolated clans are not useless to the game, and they are not as isolated as you may think.

The game is the world, and the world is the game.  Isolated clans are a piece of the puzzle, without which the world and the game would be incomplete.  Sadly, we don't have enough players to support opening all isolated clans, but this is not a reason to disparage or do away with them, in general.

The cities may hold most of the population of Zalanthas, but they are not the measure of what a Zalanthan is.  In fact, some of the best, most interesting, and most truly "Zalanthan" roleplay is to be found far outside the city-states, where might makes right, and the only law is "nature red, in tooth and claw."

In fact, I think it would be interesting to entirely do away with the city states.  Have the Dragon return to the world and destroy Tek, Muk, the Sandlord, and  whoever's in charge of the Kuracis.  Have mass starvation and anarchy overtake the shattered remnants of the cities.  Have opportunistic elves, gith, halflings and mantis move in to ravage the huddled masses who are now without the protection of their sorceror kings.  Have new kings arise and begin to build their fiefdoms upon the rubble of the old.  Noble and Merchant Houses in a -true- struggle not only for the economic upper hand, but for basic survival.

To me, the law-bound city-states are truly boring places to roleplay.  When you've seen what else is out there, sitting in the Gaj or the Sanctuary just doesn't cut it, no matter how many other PCs are there with you.