Single-language subguilds

[Marauder Moe]

I've already proposed that Cavilish be either removed from guild_merchant or have it given with a subguild.  I  also believe that Alludean, Mirrukim, and definitely Sirihish should each have their own subguilds too.

City Dwellers have spent enough times around humans to learn their language and customs.
(maybe throw in haggle and value)

Elvenfriends (couldn't come up with a good name) have gained the trust of one or a group of elves sometime in the past or otherwise spent time around them.  They are fluent in Allundean, the language of elves.
(maybe peek and steal skills)

Honorary Dwarves (name could be better on this one too) have had frequent contact with dwarves and have become proffecient in their language, Mirrukim.
(stonecrafting? bash? everything I think of seems a bit of a stretch)


The City Dweller subguild is the most needed, I think.  It would definitely solve the problem of non-humans spending their whole lives in the city but hardly being able to speak common.  The fact that it takes up a subguild seems like a fair compromise.

Thoughts?

[John]

Not necessary, especially given the fact you couldn't think of too many skills to tack on as well as the language. Just pick linguist and request the unwanted languages be removed. If the staff get sick of the removal requests, they'll create some one-language subguilds

[mansa]

It feels clunky.  The I dislike the names that you have given.  I would like to see more subclasses, and some with languages.  Just..  You haven't sold me yet.  Keep trying!

[Lizzie]

I looked over the race help files and documents, and city information and other things like that. Why not instead of adding another subguild, hm. Okay. Let me know if I have this wrong.

Dwarves either come with sirihish or not.
City elves either come with it or not.
"Or not" depends on the guild/subguild they pick?
Listen raises the learning curve for languages but it's exposure to the language that lets you learn them.

How about city elves having a coded ability to learn sirihish quicker? And dwarves. People who roll up their character in red storm have a coded ability to learn mirukkim quicker (since they're surrounded by muls). People who rol up in Luir's have a coded ability to learn Allundean quicker (since they're out in the middle of everything where a lot of elves come and go). Or a coded ability to learn Bendune quicker (since Luir's is where a lot of human tribals hang out too). Or both.

So, you might not come with a certain language, but if you live in the place where it's spoken most often you have a better shot at learning it than someone who doesn't live there (eg, didn't roll up their character there). And that would be independent of your listen skill. So even without listen you still have a better ability to learn the language and get good at it. But other languages would be business as usual and dependent on the same things they are now.

L. Stanson

[Maybe42or54]

I really like that idea, Lizzie.

[spawnloser]

I disagreed with the removing of cavilish from the merchant guild...and I have to disagree with this too.

Moe, really, Cavilish is the language of commerce...all the 'real merchants' out there pick it up eventually, being around others that know it.

I don't like making subguilds just so that you can have one language...except the nomad subguild.  Most people aren't that 'elf friendly' that they'd adopt part of the culture.  Same for people towards dwarves, though there is little dwarven culture to adopt, admittedly...so thinking along those lines, why would there be any skills that would be associated with dwarves to begin with?

I do admit that it would be nice for elves and dwarves to start without sucking so much at sirihish...but I don't think you've quite got it yet.

[gfair]

I think what you are talking about would be something like Tertiary subguilds. Just as subguilds are a subset of Guilds, so to would tertiary subguilds be a subset of subguilds. One skill typically, maybe two at the most.

For the languages, you would be able to learn them well, but not fluently, just like people who in midlife decide to learn another language - if you don't learn it young, you'll never be fluent in it.

The tertiary subguild could be seen as something that was picked up later in the character's life. Characters under that approximate age wouldn't be able to pick a tertiary sub, or wouldn't be able to use the skill.

So you would basically be getting a very much weakened version of skills that guilds and subs get. Listen would be very limited. Languages would never be learned fluently so, in text, you would always see garbled text. Archery range would be limited to the room you are in, with mediocre accuracy and damage. Hide and sneak would be instantly revealed to anyone scanning, no chance to avoid being seen under that type of elevated scrutiny.

Things like that.

It has some merit, but I don't think that the extra work required by the staff to implement this would be worth it.

[Marauder Moe]

Not necessary, especially given the fact you couldn't think of too many skills to tack on as well as the language. Just pick linguist and request the unwanted languages be removed.

A fair point.  Still, I doubt that making a few subguilds is really that much more staff-hours than special request language deletions for the rest of the game's existence.

It feels clunky.  The I dislike the names that you have given.  I would like to see more subclasses, and some with languages.  Just..  You haven't sold me yet.  Keep trying!

Yeah, I don't like the names either but they were the best I could come up with.

I disagreed with the removing of cavilish from the merchant guild...and I have to disagree with this too.

Moe, really, Cavilish is the language of commerce...all the 'real merchants' out there pick it up eventually, being around others that know it.

I've argued that there's no evidence supporting that, and plenty going against it.  This belongs on my other thread, though.

Most people aren't that 'elf friendly' that they'd adopt part of the culture. Same for people towards dwarves, though there is little dwarven culture to adopt, admittedly...so thinking along those lines, why would there be any skills that would be associated with dwarves to begin with?

My reasoning is that if you listen to elves talk a lot, you're probably going to hear a fair amount of stories about stealing.  You might learn a few tricks.  It's not about adopting elf culture, it's about knowing it.  The lack of dwarven culture, though, is indeed problematic.


These are all really, as John said, the linguist subguild without one language, without the language learning boost (if there is any), and with a few token subguild skills thrown in.  I'll admit the justifications for the Allundean and Mirrukim subguilds are a little weak, but the Sirihish one has plenty of merit.

[MorganChaos]

though there is little dwarven culture to adopt

Then why can't dwarves who've spent their lives in the city speak sirihish well?

[John]

Then why can't dwarves who've spent their lives in the city speak sirihish well?

I asked the imms that very question in mud mail (I don't expect an answer before AIM is finished though ).

[spawnloser]

though there is little dwarven culture to adopt

Then why can't dwarves who've spent their lives in the city speak sirihish well?

See John's response.  I'm confounded by this as well.

[grog]

Who says there isn't dwarven culture?

IMHO dwarves are just too stubborn to not teach their kids mirukkim first and foremost.  It even says so in the language helpfile.

[Aldiel]

Will need some more fleshing out, but not a bad idea MM, IMO

[spawnloser]

Who says there isn't dwarven culture?

Nowhere in this game is there a community of dwarves, muls or HG's.  There are for humans, elves and halflings.

Editted to add: Don't try to refute my first statement by bringing up that one outpost...that's just a title for a place that has just as many of one race as it has of at least one other.

[Maybe42or54]

Who says there isn't dwarven culture?

Nowhere in this game is there a community of dwarves, muls or HG's.  There are for humans, elves and halflings.

Editted to add: Don't try to refute my first statement by bringing up that one outpost...that's just a title for a place that has just as many of one race as it has of at least one other.

*cough* Bullshit. *cough*

There are atleast two Dwarven-dominated Places.

*hint*

Many dwarves can be seen inside the village

*/hint*

[bloodfromstone]

I would say someone who spent a significant amount of time around elves would perhaps be more adept at watch. No matter how accepted and befriended he may feel, he's still not part of the tribe. Just a thought.

Dwarves are harder. I don't know anything about dwarven culture or the apparently arguable lack thereof.

[spawnloser]

Who says there isn't dwarven culture?

Nowhere in this game is there a community of dwarves, muls or HG's.  There are for humans, elves and halflings.

Editted to add: Don't try to refute my first statement by bringing up that one outpost...that's just a title for a place that has just as many of one race as it has of at least one other.

*cough* Bullshit. *cough*

There are atleast two Dwarven-dominated Places.

*hint*

Many dwarves can be seen inside the village

*/hint*

Um...many dwarves can be found in the villages does not mean that those are dwarven dominated.  Go to those villages and see what is there.  Hell, you don't even know if dwarves outnumber everyone else there, just that theres more of them there than in other places.

I maintain that NOWHERE in this game is a place where dwarves are the dominant species.  They may be more prevalent than in other areas, but it isn't their community so that it would grow to adopt their ways.

[Maybe42or54]

Uh. Yea. You go in, look around, and there is nothing but dwarves. Nothing but dwarves in the desription, nothing but dwarves guarding the place. Nothing but dwarves.

[SpyGuy]

There is at least one all dwarven community which I know of.  That said just about 0% of the PC population is from said community (there could easily be others I haven't found) so it still doesn't explain why dwarves can't speak sirihish.  Hell, if a tribal human who never enters the major cities and lives their lives following their tribe can speak two languages fluently, so should the dwarves.