Linguists & listen.

[gfair]

Had a thought - I once opposed the idea of linguists having listen. But I wanted to put out a thought.

Lipreading. It's a form of visual listening. There are enough subguilds with listen already, but I can see linguists having an afinity for lipreading.

So. While I don't agree that linguists could know how to listen via using their ears, I could believe that they could learn how to listen via lipreading, which for code purposes could be the listen skill.

Thoughts?

[John]

No. If you want to RP out "lipreading" when you're "listening" more power to you. But no. No lipreading specific skill.

[Larrath]

Maybe Lipreading could be made its own skill, working as a subset of Watch?
Of course, we'd need to be able to watch a table for that to work.

[Halaster]

I personally don't see the connection.  A linguist is someone who knows a few languages.  Lipreading isn't a language.

[Marauder Moe]

Linguist is already a pretty cool subguild.  Don't think it needs any enhancements.

I do somtimes wish that there were more single-language subguilds, though.

[gfair]

No. If you want to RP out "lipreading" when you're "listening" more power to you. But no. No lipreading specific skill.

I said "which for code purposes could be the listen skill", thank you.


The connection: No obvious one, no. But let's be honest - you learn pronunciation of complex sounds by watching the lips and tongue of the person who is speaking. It was crucial for my Mandarin classes, as there are all kinds of unique sounds in Asian dialects that we don't have in Germanic or Latin derrivatives.

A linguist just knows languages in terms of their code and the description of the sub, yes, but through the process of learning those languages, don't you think that the linguist would have spent a great deal of time watching the lips and tongue of those he/she learned from? And perhaps picked up some small ability to read lips that, if honed, could allow the person to effectively listen to a person speak?

It would be very limited of course.

[spawnloser]

I've maintained that linguists should learn languages faster than others...I mean, come on, they start with three languages at max (or near enough not to matter) which means they picked up two extra languages (I'm leaving merchants and Cavilish out of this discussion) in the time that most have mastered no more than two.

The bard subguild is supposed to pick up languages faster than others...and many will know how they are supposed to do this.  I think that the same solution should be applied to the linguist subguild.  I will not say what this solution is, just to keep secrets from those that don't know yet.

[Marauder Moe]

Who says linguists DON'T get a language learning boost?  I always thought they did, but obviously that's something very hard to measure.

[MorganChaos]

Who says linguists DON'T get a language learning boost?  I always thought they did, but obviously that's something very hard to measure.

I don't think they do. I ran a long-lived linguist. Almost three IC years, and she worked for a merchant house, and hung around a lot of merchants speaking cavilish. She didn't pop cavilish until near the end of her life. I had a non-linguist pop allundean after hearing like 10 lines of it. If linguists have a bonus, it's small enough not to matter. But I think they should have one, or a better one.

[Spoon]

They should probably either start with more accents (or is that some accents?) and at least learn them faster than others. I haven't noticed any speedier learning of languages with linguists in the past. If anything, they seem to learn more slowly, but I think this is impossible...

[MorganChaos]

They should probably either start with more accents (or is that some accents?) and at least learn them faster than others. I haven't noticed any speedier learning of languages with linguists in the past. If anything, they seem to learn more slowly, but I think this is impossible...

I can kinda see the logic behind learning them slowly, but it's pretty flawed. Being that if you know a lot of languages it's harder to sort it all out so it's harder to learn more. But that's simply not how language learning works. As a real life cunning linguist, once you learn a couple languages, it's easier to learn more because you develop that part of your brain, and because you end up with your own little strategies to learn languages with. And you have a better understanding of language law in general, which you an apply to new languages and learn quicker.

[jhunter]

I agree with the idea that linguists -should- pick up languages easier than they currently do. The same for accents. There's more to being a linguist than knowing a couple languages, IMO.

[Spoon]

True. Along the lines of explaining subguilds, they flesh out what a character has been doing all their life, what they are good at. Anyone can learn the three main languages. Now, this isn't about balancing subguilds, it's more about realism, perhaps. If someone is a linguist, they should actually be useful as a translator etc., and at the moment, they're not. I think perhaps this needs another thread.

[Forty Winks]

As for the lipreading, how much different is it than listen? Not much considering the person you are lip reading has to be in the same room as you or else you likely won't be able to tell you from few and such. It isn't a skill that would benefit the game in any large amount.

About linguists learning slower than if not, I can say it is likely wrong. For the instances where you learn a language after listening it for a few times, try learning a second language after that.  :wink:

The linguist subguild is fine as it is currently. I believe there was a thread already on linguists recieving the listen skill. Was voted against I think.

[spawnloser]

I don't think it was...I think what you're thinking of is a staff member saying that s/he thought the subguild was fine.  It was an opinion, not a definitive stance by staff, nor was it a common concensus of players.

[Forty Winks]

The thread is found here. No staff opinion, but generally voted against listen for the reasons stated.

[spawnloser]

I must be thinking of another thread on the topic...I still disagree with that consensus on that thread, though...unless linguists do have a coded bump to learn languages.  Seriously, that's what they do is languages.  Another subguild gets listen to somewhat represent its ability to learn...why not linguists too?

[Cale_Knight]

IThere's more to being a linguist than knowing a couple languages, IMO.

I agree. But I think that's more a function of the subguild being poorly named than the subguild needing to be improved.

A while back I argued that the linguist subguild wasn't all that great because anyone can learn two extra languages, given time. And while that's certainly true, it takes a long freaking time to get as good with them as linguist lets you start clear off the bat with.

The subguilds that allow listen are essentially "listen" subguilds. Any other skills they might give are ancillary. If linguist gave listen, there would be absolutely zero reason (outside of RP) to pick anything else whatsoever.

[spawnloser]

The subguilds that allow listen are essentially "listen" subguilds. Any other skills they might give are ancillary. If linguist gave listen, there would be absolutely zero reason (outside of RP) to pick anything else whatsoever.

I can not disagree with this statement more.  One of them, I guarantee I would use again and again, even if linguist gave listen...the other, I've never played.

[jhunter]

The subguilds that allow listen are essentially "listen" subguilds. Any other skills they might give are ancillary. If linguist gave listen, there would be absolutely zero reason (outside of RP) to pick anything else whatsoever.

I can not disagree with this statement more.  One of them, I guarantee I would use again and again, even if linguist gave listen...the other, I've never played.

No kidding. Most of the time I pick subguilds that don't have listen at all. I don't pick subguilds for one particular skill anyway.

[Intrepid]

It would be a bit strange if Bards had an easier time picking up languages than Linguistics.

I do hope that's not the case.  That's really not how I designed the subclass at all...

[MorganChaos]

I play linguist primarily for the rp, not necessarily for the languages. But there's plenty of other subclasses I'd choose. I don't pick subclasses for the skills. Or, I do, but that's only half the reason. The other reason is it makes sense in terms of the character's background.