Fleeing

[Vivian]

Now now, hear me out...this is a good suggestion (or atleast I think so!)

The flee command/act, I feel, should not take any movement.  Think about this for a moment, if you would please.  Realisticly, if your legs get tired when your life is in danger, you don't just say .. "Oh, my legs are too tired to move, I think I'll just stay here and fight them, even when I know the fight is hopeless.  I'll quit running so they can kill me." NO, adrenaline kicks in and you run and run and run until the threat is gone, or...until you die while still running!

I'm not asking that if one has to flee that they gain movement, however, can the code be changed so that when you flee you don't lose movement?

[Malifaxis]

Um, adrenaline rushes don't last forever.  As an experienced user of adrenaline, I can state for sure that the shit wears off.

and when it does... your body turns to clay.

And it doesn't always wait until you are done, either.  Sometimes you just run out and kaput you go.

I do not support unlimited flees for twinks scared of being death or being raided (which is what this would be used for, primarily)

[Malifaxis]

Also, there's the fact that you have to 'flee' to escape subdue.  Each attempt makes you more tired.  If you took that away, you could have a pale, sickly dwarf who struggles for 4 days and finally breaks free of a HG subduer without once ever breaking a sweat.

[Cyrian20]

Um, adrenaline rushes don't last forever.  As an experienced user of adrenaline, I can state for sure that the shit wears off.

and when it does... your body turns to clay.

And it doesn't always wait until you are done, either.  Sometimes you just run out and kaput you go.

I do not support unlimited flees for twinks scared of being death or being raided (which is what this would be used for, primarily)

I have to agree and also say your adrenaline rushed kicked off at 5
movement, your character should have been resting a loooooong time ago.
That is like suddenly running a 30k for the first time in your life then trying
to out sprint some little kid. Not going to happen. And if you say your
exhaustion is from combat moves. This is my job and I can say
when I am tired in the ring I won't throw a heavy kick or a quick series of
punches and angle changes otherwise I might literally just pass out and fall
or stun myself. I can vouch that I have both seen and experienced it.

   So realistically you should always have 25% or more stamina to flee away with. If your so far out that isn't enough to flee, well that is an ic
issue and not proper thinking on your character's part (I wouldn't spend
the day running around if I had a match that afternoon, well yeah I have...
But I didn't have half the energy I needed.)

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I can see the point about adrenaline, but if you were just to take away the stamina/movement loss from flee, there is by far too much that could be abused.

I suppose there could be some sort of middle-ground. Such as, maybe in instances where you've almost reached the end of your movement/stam, that adrenaline could kick in. Temporarily. But you'll start ticking into the negative points (sort of like health and dying). And you can only go neg so far before you pass out from exhaustion or something, and are not just unable to run, but completely unable to defend yourself even by standing that last stand, where it's do or die.

But adding something like this to the code could cause a major problem with people who hunt NPC that will flee I'd think. At least, if the NPC are bound by the exact combat code PC are (I don't code, so this is just speculation). If you remove it completely, Auto-flee creatures would become impossible to kill without ranged weapons or magick. Ever. And if you add a knock-out adrenaline boost, there will be someone who will simply chase it until it's unconcious.

[Vivian]

...well, I'm not saying that adrenaline wont wear out.  What I am saying is that code wise, fleeing=running=out of movement faster.  Bad bad when you're trying to get some raptors (or anything else) off your tail.  Instead, adrenaline kicks in whenever someone flees so it would be just a tad more realistic.  Instead of saying "My legs are tired, I give up" you're saying "I have to run, I have to try to survive."

To be honest, this would give characters a little bit better odds except when you have things that hunt you on your tail.  You can still die while running, but atleast your character didnt just give up because he/she was too tired to run.

[Angela Christine]

Obviously this idea could be abused horribly (flee self all the way home) but abusability isn't a good reason to reject something out of hand.  Everything can be abused.



Adrenaline is good.  But again we run into the problem of distance.  An adrenaline rush just isn't going to be enough to let you run for miles and miles.  Adrenaline is for sprints, not marathons.

Essentially I don't think the rush would be of any use most of the time.  I've probably lost dozens of characters to aggressive NPCs I tried to get away from, and I really don't think this idea would have saved me even a single time.  If you sprint one room away (ignoring just how large even a single room is) it isn't going to be enough unless you still have enough to walk at least a couple more rooms on top of that.  Just being in the very next room won't help, because the vast majority of NPCs will simply walk over to you and resume fighting.  You need to get where they won't see you, and if you are unlucky enough to be running from an NPC that can Hunt you basically need to get to someplace where the beastie can't follow.  I'm thinking about it, but I just can't picture situations where moving one room for free would make a difference to the end result.

The only time it really help would be when it was misused.  Flee, attacker follows you and attacks again so you flee again, the attacker follows so you flee, the attacker follows and you flee, over and over again.  Eventually flee would either get you someplace safe (in which case you have been unrealistically "sprinting" on an adrenaline rush for miles and miles) or the thing would catch up with you and you would get the same result as if you hadn't been able to free flee in the first place.


It isn't a bad idea, but I don't think it would work.


Angela Christine

[John]

If your character is too exhausted to run away from battle, you should consider if your character is too tired to fight (which you can stop by nosave on and disengage). Somehow I don't think that will happen.

Me, if anything, I'd want combat to take into account how exhausted you are, not to have flee ignore how exhausted you are.

Perhaps a random chance of gaining 5-10 movement points when battle just begins? Or perhaps a random chance of gaining 5-10 movement points as you become more and more hurt. And then after time X, a 20-30 movement loss (with a min of being at 0 movement).

[Cenghiz]

In a so-called RP MUD I have tried before finding armageddon, there was a radical solution to this problem.. I don't think it's going to be easy to solve the whole problem this way, but they had a point.

They didn't have move points at all, they just had something called 'balance'.. When you ran, you became unbalanced. When you received damage, you became unbalanced. You got forced to wait standing/rest to become balanced again, or you could trip or sometimes even not manage to stand up after the fall. So anything wearing you down or unbalancing you would bring you closer to the point where you fall and can't stand up again.

Sorrily right now I don't even remember what the name of that MUD was.. This idea can be of help, in the future.

[Anonymous]

fleeing is running then going east/west/north/south/up/down whatever.

Running takes movement.

[jmordetsky]

Movement is a measure of whether or not you can, well move.

If you have none left it means you are too exhausted to even crawl.

I think this problem is better fixed by combat draining stamina, rather then removing the stamina drain from flee.

[Bogre]

IMO, your stamina represents the entire reserve of physical activity you can sustain, including adrenaline, second winds, and enery reserves. So when you hit 0 moves, it means you've already used up all the resources your body can muster, and you are completely exhausted. Adrenaline, IMO, is counted towards the total number of moves you have, towards the bottom end of the spectrum. So you can count adrenaline rushes as being the boost of speed that keeps you going around 20-30% stamina and allows you to approach 0, instead of collapsing right there on the spot.

Editted cause I found a spelling mistake.

[Cyrian20]

IMO, your stamina represents the entire reserve of physical activity you can sustain, including adrenaline, second winds, and enery reserves. So when you hit 0 moves, it means you've already used up all the resources your body can mustere, and you are completely exhausted. Adrenaline, IMO, is counted towards the total number of moves you have, towards the bottom end of the spectrum. So you can count adrenaline rushes as being the boost of speed that keeps you going around 20-30% stamina and allows you to approach 0, instead of collapsing right there on the spot.

See a better written version of what I said. I think is the issue that needs to
be addressed and people are ignoring it. That's like saying when your at 1 hp
you shouldn't drop from a scrape. 1 hp is near comma though not walking
around bright eyed and bushy tailed. If you are at say 20 stamina
your character is at adrenaline boost time to keep going anyways. Being
this is an RPI mud you have to think that hp and stam aren't something
you just outright ignore. If you have 15 stamina left your character is
practically ready to fall over and pass out as it is.

[Aldiel]

I have to agree with what others have stated above.  You do experience it; it's just like being drunk.  When you wake up in the morning after doing a lot of stupid shit that people from then on nickname you The Monkey for, you are really, really tired and your whole body hurts.  

[MorganChaos]

Mehh...the only realistic and relatively twinkproof representation of this is a different state of movement that you enter when stam is too low, in which you start losing health instead of movement.

[Intrepid]

Mehh...the only realistic and relatively twinkproof representation of this is a different state of movement that you enter when stam is too low, in which you start losing health instead of movement.

I know I keep bringing this up, but stun could be next after movement.

[MorganChaos]

Mehh...the only realistic and relatively twinkproof representation of this is a different state of movement that you enter when stam is too low, in which you start losing health instead of movement.

I know I keep bringing this up, but stun could be next after movement.

Yeah, that's probably more realistic when I think about it. Although a little easier to twink, but that's a line you need to tread.

[Intrepid]

Yeah, that's probably more realistic when I think about it. Although a little easier to twink, but that's a line you need to tread.

True, and it could also just delay the inevitable long enough for a strategy or true escape
to form.  The alternative is that you go from near-certain death to certain death when
you pass out from stun loss and that beast tracks you to where you went beddy-bye.

[Cyrian20]

Mehh...the only realistic and relatively twinkproof representation of this is a different state of movement that you enter when stam is too low, in which you start losing health instead of movement.

I know I keep bringing this up, but stun could be next after movement.

I know I keep bringing this up

but if we want to be overly realistic, you should have a chance of passing out
when you hit zero stamina. My traininers often have me doing long sets on the
heavy bag and more then once in my six years of doing this on my current
level I have just slumped against the bag and passed out. It wasn't I pushed
past my limit. It is just I finally reached it. In real life if you had a stamina number
you would start crawling and being totally worn out at 20-25% stamina.
If you are doing something beyond that then Ic'ly your mental drive/adrenaline/fear of giant angry templars (that is a notch above adrenaline) has already kicked in to get you that extra 20% or so.


Again that is like saying your fine when your walking around with 20 hp, if
you have 20 stamina your barely able to walk and if you choose to run
then you have to think if your just playing the code, or does your character
have a reason to still be running when he can't even breath anymore and
his legs are probably burning hot enough to actually hurt him.

[gfair]

Flee should definitely require stamina. People talked about adrenaline - chances are your adrenaline has already kicked in during the attack or fight. Adrenaline doesn't last forever. If you run, the more you do so while in fear with adrenaline pumping, the more the chance of you falling down, or making some kind of mistake. Watch police chases - eventually the person slips up or stops and tries to hide, or just can't run any further.

So stamina loss is a must for flee.


As for stun - I withdraw my support for the "running on stun" idea. This isn't possible. When you reach no stamina, this says that your legs are burning from effort, and are so weak that you can't move them anymore. All the mental will in the world cannot make up for the chemical process that is robbing your muscles of energy. If anything, running as you near very low stamina (1/4 or less) should incur a stun penalty, because you have to maintain your willpower and increasingly ignore your muscles that are screaming in exhaustion, pain, cramps, etc, which takes a concerted mental effort.

[Anonymous]

I would wholly support a system in which you were able to do stamina-draining activities at a significant penalty and tap out your stun.

i.e. moving would be much slower.  Combat would be much clumsier.

And when stun hits 0, you black out.

I will be in line with a pen ready to sign that one.

[Anonymous]

What's all this about using stanima and everything else to help with movement?

Thats making things more complicated, I think.  All that needs to happen, IMO, is that fleeing should not take any movement, that's all, just running from one room to the next.  Honestly, I have no idea how that can be abused.  Considering that if you're that far out of movement, the thing is going to get you anyhow.

Oh, one more thing..once you're out of the room when the flee is successful, your speed of travel before you flee should be turned back on.

For example..

If you're jogging, run into something you know you can't handle and it attacks you...RUN ...flee out of the room, and then continue jogging.  If we just change that, it would help with fleeing and movement a -lot-.

[mansa]

What's all this about using stanima and everything else to help with movement?

Thats making things more complicated, I think.  All that needs to happen, IMO, is that fleeing should not take any movement, that's all, just running from one room to the next.  Honestly, I have no idea how that can be abused.  Considering that if you're that far out of movement, the thing is going to get you anyhow.

Oh, one more thing..once you're out of the room when the flee is successful, your speed of travel before you flee should be turned back on.

For example..

If you're jogging, run into something you know you can't handle and it attacks you...RUN ...flee out of the room, and then continue jogging.  If we just change that, it would help with fleeing and movement a -lot-.

How is it abuseable?

You could 'flee self' all the way home, and not have to worry that you only have 2 movement points left.

[Maybe42or54]

But you can't flee self direction.

[Anonymous]

Exactly,

The flee is a random direction, theoretically.

Flee self all the way home would not be feasible considering, there are two options.

1) You flee, whatever it is you are fleeing from does not follow after you and you are safe.

2) You flee, what ever does follow after you, continuing to strike at you, in which case you continue to lose HP.  Then you either, a: die from loss of hitpoints or, b: finally are able to get away, but until you do, the thing continues to find you and continues to take hp away from it's attacks.

[mansa]

What about struggling free while being subued?