watch hurting sneaky types

[steps lightly kank]

this is mainly feedback for Morgenes, but if other people disagree or have similar experiences, i'll put it here so they can contribute

while I love code changes to make the world more realistic, I fear that the sneaky type people are suffering too big a disadvantage now.  

without going into anything IC, I have a fairly old experienced stealthy character who had gotten pretty good at slip and palm.  now it seems like average unobservant people are always noticing.  

the same goes for hide.  it was a skill I used sparingly, but when i did, to good effect.  Now the advantage for other people in the room to notice seems to be increased, and if they are watching you, forget it.  I'm curious if a high enough sneak/hide skill can give success even if you're being watched.  I think even if someone were staring at a person, if that person was good enough he could slip away without needing to leave the room - especially in outdoor city rooms which are quite large and full of people and building nooks, etc.  
Maybe there should be an "elude" command, where a sneaky person can break someone else's watch and then be able to engage their stealthy arts with a chance of succeeding.

apologies if I oversimplified or made incorrect assumptions about the new code functionality.

[UnderSeven]

It seems to me that sneaky actions are trying to be 'elusive' to begin with, that's sort of the point?

Having not played on this I can't comment on the balance of how easy and effective watch is, but I don't think an 'elude' is the answer.  However have you considered other options?  

In Italy pick pockets will hold signs up that say various things and get in your face with them.  Naturally being the savy tourist you are, you'll watch that sign wielder like a hawk while the small child playing ball nearby makes off with your wallet.

Just a thought.

[steps lightly kank]

I agree that the teaming up/distracting method is a good one for pickpockets, but I'm coming at this more from the point of view of non-thief sneaky-types.

[Folker]

Well, the true question is ... how many characters as of yet shifted their watch from some person you think is a thief to a character of the sex of your preference, just because you enjoyed watching them? If there is atleast one such person, praise be to armageddon to gather such good players. But the odds are not high even for this mud.

[Kalden]

Or even if they aren't watching...if they're simply in the room, the chances of hide messing up seem a little increased.

Worrying.

(Maybe it just happens at the worst times...)

[Yokunama]

I'm curious if a high enough sneak/hide skill can give success even if you're being watched.

Compare some of the situations to real life events.

You'll have to be extreamly good to walk up to someone, whom is watching you, and take something out or put something in their pockets.

Wouldn't you agree?

[steps lightly kank]

I honestly have not been referring to thieves at all here.

I'm not talking about steal, but about hide... maybe with no other skill use following it.

[Arbonne]

By what reaction are you basing your observations off of? I didn't know you actually got an echo when someone noticed your sleight of hand or hide/sneak skill...

[bloodfromstone]

I try to use watch when I'm talking to someone intently, checking out that hottie at the bar, watching someone preform a song, etc... But I don't consistantly, because I forget to, or I forget to turn it off and end up watching the person while I'm cleaning my boots or whatever. Come to think of it, I've yet to use watch for watching a dark, hooded figure or svelte, pale-skinned man.

I will say I'm a bit concerned about the feedback I've heard about the new changes to stealth stuff. It seems to be short-sticking rogues (granted, I haven't played one before or after the new additions). Watch is a cool idea, but I don't want to see it erase the roguish population.

[Cale_Knight]

It used to be that if you didn't have a good scan, or if you were a warrior, you would never ever ever catch anyone doing anything sneaky if they were halfway decent at it.

Between watch totally and completely screwing over rogues, and the new stamina code totally and completely screwing over warriors, I suppose everyone is going to have to play nothing but rangers from here on out.

[Maybe42or54]

Or just wait and see what they are going to do to rangers.

[Kalden]

I wouldn't say it's extremely nerfed. I like all the changes.

However, watch as a passive skill seems a little overpowered...catching hiders and stealers a little too easy...I'll have to do more playing to know for sure.

[Morgenes]

For those of you who are trying to 'evaluate' the effect of the changes to steal skills, let me break down for you guys what changed.

Previous to the watch code changes (and the fix to this bug I found), the skill check to see if you steal something was just a simple skill success check, with no modifiers for what the object was that you were trying to steal, how populated the room was, or anything.  Those modifiers were only applied to see if you recovered from the failure.

Now, all the factors that should be taken in all cases are included.  And as a matter of fact, some of the penalties were lessoned.  Since then, we have changed it so that the object isn't taken into account for the recovery from a failed steal attempt, actually making it EASIER to recover that it previously was.

I know this will probably be met with a 'oh' and then someone will resume bitching about how we've 'nerfed' pickpockets, but you guys are just going to have to toughen up about this.  Stealing was TOO easy, now it's a real skill check with real modifiers.

[Kalden]

Cool!

One question: have there been any similar changes to hide? Does the amount of PCs/NPCs in the room now affect your chances, whether they are watching you or not?

Thanks again for all the changes.

[Morgenes]

Hide underwent some important changes with the watch command, but for the most part they deal with if someone is actively watching you.  From the hide helpfile:

If someone is watching you, it will make it harder to hide.

[jmordetsky]

Stealing was too easy. I had an 8 day burglar that could pick you backpack clean while you were sitting there talking to him.

How tired were you of sitting there and having conversation with a character and then they just fade from existence?

Of having someone steal off you, show it to you, watch you get upset and then do it again?

Watch fixes.

[Anonymous]

Easy solution.

Leave.

If you aren't seen entering a room, and you aren't seen once you're IN the room, no one can watch you, can they.

Eh.

I'm more concerned about the suggestion that the ability to actually lift items without detection has been affected.  But I have no intention of issuing comment until I attempt to play it.

[Maybe42or54]

As long as it goes back to me being able to steal from the near dead. Even without the skill, or I'll just have to end up killing Pcs just to get one thing.

[Morgenes]

As long as it goes back to me being able to steal from the near dead. Even without the skill, or I'll just have to end up killing Pcs just to get one thing.

If you can't steal from the unconscious without the steal skill please mail morgenes@ginka.armageddon.org and cc mud with a log of it happening.

[Pantoufle]

I know this will probably be met with a 'oh' and then someone will resume bitching about how we've 'nerfed' pickpockets, but you guys are just going to have to toughen up about this. Stealing was TOO easy, now it's a real skill check with real modifiers.

When we take into account that any character is capable of 100% steal-proofing themselves by closing all containters and wearing no small blades/pouches on their belt, I cannot possibly see how steal was "way too easy".  How on earth could steal have ever been too easy if the victims in question are essentially letting themselves be stolen from in the first place?  Simply by knowing how to 100% steal-proof yourself means that even in cases where someone loses a very large item (which realistically, should be impossible to steal) it's their own fault.  Moreover, the only time thieves can even have the chance to steal is when someone forgets to 100% steal-proof themself.  Yet think of all the times when half a dozen PCs insta-close their backpacks the moment a hooded figure enters a tavern.

Steal has never been too easy.  Not being stolen from has.

[Jherlen]

How do people typically learn not to be stolen from?

1) Get stolen from in game.
2) Read people like Pantoufle's posts on the GDB.

And sometimes you just get careless. I still do. A good thief will capitalize on that.

The "blame the victim" argument never really works on me. I think stealing is fine, though am not playing a PC who does it right now.

[Ghost]

Ability to open closed containers is being coded Pantoufle, so 100% steal proof will no longer be in place.  That is something else to be considered realistic.

[Pantoufle]

I seriously doubt that players enter the game without knowing how to steal proof themselves as if they need to learn in game or from me making a post.  It's not as though other MUDs don't have a steal code.  I'm also not an advocate of "blaming the victim" either, nor am I an advocate of blaming the thief come to think of it.  I'm an advocate of blaming the code (which has always been in favor of the victim, 10 times moreso now).

I'm not looking for a game where people are constantly losing every single item and the entire MUD becomes one big steal fest.  But when you implement a code which makes yourself 100% invincible, I simply cannot agree with any argument that says steal is overpowered.  If that were the case, please explain to me by the same logic how steal prevention isn't overpowered.  Do that, and you have a plausible argument.

[Cale_Knight]

I seriously doubt that players enter the game without knowing how to steal proof themselves as if they need to learn in game or from me making a post.

I've had to tell dozens of newbies to close their packs, lest their 1000 sid in starting funds be wiped clean on the way to the bank.

So your serious doubt is seriously flawed.

[jhunter]

I disagree with the sentiment that steal was way overpowered. I've -never- had anything stolen off any of my pcs in all my time playing. I've even left things in places they could be stolen from and -not- locked my pc down 100% to keep from being stolen from.