Overhunting? or Too Many Starting Animals?

[Tuannon]

Tuannon Advice 1.01

As a new player:

Do play for yourself.
Don't shoehorn for other people's roles.
Don't be afraid to die.
Do explore and have fun with the learning process.
Do have a pre thought concept of what your character will do in common situations.

Tuannon Advice 1.02

Practice what you preach!

[John]

As I said, I'm a newbie, I'm struggling.

If you're a newbie to the game (as opposed to a newbie to the role as a hunter. People can be here for years and years and still be newbies to roles like burglars or assassins) I really, strongly encourage you to join a Merchant House. You'll have to remain for 5 IC years (last I checked that was about 8 OOC months). You won't die in six hours if you join a Merchant clan.

Do some of you vets know how hard it is just to get a character started? Learn the ropes of the game anymore?

Yup. I went through something like 20 chars in 20 days when I started. I started in 2002. I still don't know how to play a hunter without dying very quickly.

I don't like blasting through characters every 6 hours.  Its unfair when everyone else has OOC knowledge they refuse to un-ass themselves from so they can't lay the smack down on some poor newbie who struggling with the syntax let alone trying to make enough coin to survive.

Then I really, very strongly urge you to join a clan. Join the T'zai Byn if you're in Allanak and don't want to join a clan for 8 OOC months. You'll have to stay in the clan for 6 weeks or so (I believe), at which point you can leave at any time you want. However they are mercenaries, rather then hunters. So it is a combat role, not a hunting role. Or if you don't really care if you play a hunter, join any clan that will have you. The easiest ones to join are the militia as a soldier (that's where you'll be a police-man, although they're not called that in-game) or a noble house as a guard.

Arbonne-Getting a job with a house or finding a PC is easier said then done.

If you're in Tuluk hang out in the Sanctuary (a tavern), you'll find one eventually. If you're in Allanak then it's a bit more difficult. There's 3 taverns. Stay in the Gaj to join the Byn, go to the Barrel to join a Merchant House or go to Trader's to join a noble house. Ask someone in game for directions to any of these taverns.

So its unfair to us few, who are either play an iso role, or not logged on at peak.  Sure the game is harsh, but it shouldn't be unplayable.

I'm an Australian and it is difficult and can be boring. Although you're only safe bet is to join a clan, unless you don't mind constantly dying. You'll learn eventually if you keep at it. I did.

[Jherlen]

Wanted to clarify something re: Merchant Houses, because John doesn't have it exactly right:

Not all Merchant Houses make you stay in for 5 IC years. Depending on the House and the position you are hired for, the time commitment can be less than that.

House Salarr, when I was last in a position to know, hired hunters on a 5 IC year contract basis, and paid people a salary as soon as they joined. House Kadius I believe does things a bit differently, hiring hunters for shorter contracts, but may not pay a salary right off (still providing room and board). House Kurac doesn't really hire "hunters", but their military wing recruits people for a yearlong term and then will offer them the chance to stay on as a mercenary for subsequent yearly contracts. None of the merchant Houses require life oaths from everyone, as far as I know, until you start reaching higher level ranks.

(note: I may be wrong about some of this, but the main point is that not all clans require an 8-month commitment.)

But moving on from that, I also really encourage joining a clan. I did with my first ranger PC and was able to learn to take care of myself because I had other PCs with IC reasons to teach my character and save him from doom when I screwed up. It also becomes much MUCH easier to support yourself.

Also, some clans actually do have a decently strong off-peak presence. In fact, depending on the player makeup of a clan, they may be more active offpeak than on. My advice is to look for PCs in a clan that you see during your normal playing hours, and then try and join up with them.

Lastly about clans and rules: most clans have rules because the rules keep people from doing stupid stuff which gets you killed. In Allanak, for example, most rules will be things like: 1) Don't enter the 'rinth, 2) Don't break the law, and 3) Don't leave the gates without permission. All of this may seem restrictive, but I guarantee if you follow them your PC will live a lot, lot longer.

[amoeba]

To the newbie:

First enjoy the newbie time.  This is a time when all the game is mysterious and there is so much more to be learned and explored.  In many ways I envy you.

It is very possible to survive as a newbie to the game without ever joining a clan and while being very anti-social. My first character lived quite long without joining a clan or getting a clue.  You just have to be very cautious about things and mostly very, very alert.  

While it is true that NPC merchants buy only 5 of an item, that still leaves tons of items to sell.  The easy to get and ordinary get filled up first.  Think of using all your availble skills to collect whatever is possible.  Your first character will be very, very poor for a long time, but getting past that is part of the fun.

Enjoy the ride because everyone's eventual destination is a brutal death.

[jstorrie]

Indie hunters are some of the most difficult characters to get started, no matter how much OOC knowledge you have. Even in Tuluk, water is expensive, food is expensive, mounts are expensive, stabling your mount is expensive, arrows are expensive... a hunting trip that goes awry can cost you over a hundred sid right there. Guess how much sid you have left after buying your mount, hunting gear, and a bit of food or water? Not very much!

So on the one hand I understand your plight, but on the other hand would hope that you know that you're trying to have a go at one of the hardest professions in Zalanthas. It may seem uber-leet to go out and turn silt horrors into +8 fullplate, but it is not particularly easy to get to this point.

Certain people may hire you do hunt easy beasts or gather relatively common materials, and a smart idea may be to grab a job like this to make sure one bad hunting run doesn't turn you into a street beggar. That, or you can just keep rolling six-hour characters and hope one of them gets lucky...

[moab]

As a newbie hunter, with barely enough coin to afford water, nothing is more annoying then actually being sucessful on hunt, but not have any merchant able to buy the shit you just work so hard to get.

I understand your OOC frustration.  I do.

However, the game you are playing isn't about being able to sell your stuff.  It's about struggling with your character.  If your character can not sell his stuff, he better figure out another way to survive.  Keep it all IC and you'll find the jewel that is Armageddon.

Good luck!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would also strongly suggest keeping as many of those items you can't sell to an NPC as you can, and begin offering them to PCs. It's a great way to drive PC on PC interaction.

[John]

I would also strongly suggest keeping as many of those items you can't sell to an NPC as you can, and begin offering them to PCs. It's a great way to drive PC on PC interaction.

However when leaving the city and going into the wilds type "stat" and if it says it's heavier then "manageable" get rid of some of those items, otherwise you'll lose stamina at a fatal rate (in my experience anyway). I don't actually know what is heavier then manageable but some safe ones are "your weight is light", "your weight is easily manageable" or "you're weight is no problem."

Can someone more knowledgable then me confirm that as good advice?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yes, John is right. Anything heavier than Managable is detrimental to your survival in the wild. If you run, as elves do, your stamina will bite gortokdick. If you ride, your kank will no longer give it up.

Still, the point is, don't rely solely on NPCs. This game craves PC on PC interaction, and there is no better interaction than trying to push off unwanted goods on another PC.

[Cuusardo]

:arrow:  If you are going to play a hunter, play a ranger.  That will guarantee that you have food in your belly.  And if you look in the right places, you will never have to buy water again.

:arrow:  Don't rely on NPCs to buy materials.  There are tons of PCs who need raw materials!  Spend some time in the cities/outpost/villages nearby and ask around.  PCs may or may not pay as much as NPCs, but they will often buy quite a bit more than NPCs will.  Often times the merchant houses buy raw materials from independent hunters, so be sure to ask who to talk to about that.

:arrow:  Hunting is not necessarily the answer.  There are many, many raw materials that can be gained without having to kill anything (or anyone) to get them.

:arrow:  Defend your turf.  If you feel someone is intruding on your business, do something about it.  You don't have to sit back and let someone else steal the money you so desperately need.

:arrow:  Swallow your pride and join a clan.  Yes, it comes with some restrictions, but it also comes with phenomenal benefits.  In a world where everyone is struggling for survival, these jobs are among the best.

[Angela Christine]

:arrow:  Don't rely on NPCs to buy materials.  There are tons of PCs who need raw materials!  Spend some time in the cities/outpost/villages nearby and ask around.  PCs may or may not pay as much as NPCs, but they will often buy quite a bit more than NPCs will.  Often times the merchant houses buy raw materials from independent hunters, so be sure to ask who to talk to about that.

This is true.  There is always someone looking to buy almost anything you can hunt, scavenge or find.  Many crafters quite sensibly don't want to go out into the dangerous wilderness to find their own supplies, and they will be deliriously happy to find a PC supplier.  

As for price, PCs may be less or MORE than local NPCs.  An independent crafter may be willing to pay you an amount somewhere between what the NPC would offer you for the item, and what the NPC would charge him for the item.  NPCs have to make a profit too, so he probably offers you 1/4 or 1/6 of what he plans to re-sell the item for.  I've often had people offer me twice what an NPC would pay, just to ensure that I would sell to them first and use NPC shops only as a last resort.  The laws of supply and demand kick in with PCs, if lots of people are looking to unload a good the perceived value goes down, if few people are supplying a good (and it can be crafted into something valuable) then the price goes up.



:arrow:  Don't just be a hunter, be a hunter-gatherer.  If you are out in the wilderness wandering around looking for rabbits you are going to find other things like herbs, fruit, bones, etc.  Whatever you see, try taking it home and selling it, some stuff is much more valuable than it looks.

:arrow:  Don't be too proud to forage.  If you are having trouble finding game or if the hide market is already flooded, try foraging for stuff.  Be warned, at first this is very slow and frustrating.  Each time you are out on a trip, maybe when you dismount to use the hunt skill, try foraging a few times.  If you are a ranger "forage food" can be worthwhile, but even foraging for stones can usually make enough money to pay for water and stable fees.  Foraging for wood is more uncertain, since in Tuluk even Merchants are often willing to go far enough from the gates to collect their own branches and anywhere but Tuluk doesn't have many wood crafters.  Foraging for salt can be quite profitable if you happen to find a place that looks like it has salt.  But foraging for stone is my personal favorite.  Try in different places until you find something other than sandstone, no one pays much for sandstone but if you can find other kinds of stone people will love you.  Also, if you are planning to sell to NPCs try "assess"ing what you find, some things are coded as crude weapons so you have to sell those to weapon shops rather than raw material shops.


Alternate income methods don't solve the problems with hunting and the NPC economy, but they can keep your character alive during times when you can't make a living hunting.


Good luck.

Angela Christine

[jhunter]

As a rule I'd recommend having a "backup plan" for all your pcs. It's much easier to survive if you have something else to fall back on.

[Cuusardo]

One thing to keep in mind about being independent merchants and hunters is that it's not supposed to be easy to do this.  You've got four major merchant houses in the known world that have pretty much cornered the market on the things they sell and services they provide.  One independent merchant trying to get into the jewelry business to compete with Kadius is like some random person who invents a computer operating system, and tries to compete with Microsoft.  You think he's going to get rich doing it?  Probably not.  He isn't going to get nearly the amount of business, just like the indie jeweler won't get nearly as much as Kadius does.

[Bebop.]

This has been a big problem lately.  I think it is due to the recent player increase, however slight it's having a big effect on the PCs that should be buying goods for hunters.

With my last experience there were no coins available in Tuluk or Luir's for hides and after the game rebooted, in eleven hours both shops were out of money again.  That is not so much an IG problem I would think as an OOC problem.

Some people would not join a clan, that is not the idea or goal they have for their character, and I don't think it is a good idea to just shrug it off.  Sometimes people get bored playing in clans etc.  

Technically it's OOC problem as well, because virtually there are many shops but PCs only have access to one or two shops that buy the hides they are trying to sell.  And every indy ranger/hunter isn't going to sell just one hide, they are going to want to sell one or two or more a day (IG).  If you have five indy rangers that each sell only two hides a day (and that's not spamming or twinking) that's ten hides an IG day, and people usually hunt more then that so the shops are going to be sold out within less then one RL day even if people aren't spamming.  It's an OOC problem.  The merchants should have less coins but replenish their coins every IG day IMO.

The absence of creatures is an IC problem that can be dealt with but lack of coins from merchants is an OOC problem which will require some kind of IMM cooperation. Hunters have many expenses, arrows, bow, armor and everytime they hunt they have to stable their kank (if you're not an elf but I think this post is mostly in reference to non-elves.)

Also, this is one thing that I've seen three times now while hunting.  I will be in the same square as someone, someone will ride in, and without emoting kill the thing I am about to kill.  That is spamming and twinikish and hack and slash, please do not do that.  If you're going to steal the kill from someone at least RP it.  Don't come in and just start killing the thing or assisting in killing it.  It's not realistic and it's irritating when someone is emoting going towards their kill and someone just runs in and starts hacking.

[Aldiel]

If you are experiencing competition, kill 'em, maim them, or change their mind.

Exactly, overhunting is an IC problem and should be dealt with ICly. Not posting on the boards about it.
I see it time and time again that people have this probem IC and try to use the board as an OOC means to get the problem solved because it's easier to complain and say it's poor play on the other player's part than take a chance and possibly risk your pc doing anything about it.

Someone's overhunting is hurting your survival or your business?

There's an opportunity for some conflict rp for ya. Get to work and deal with it in character.

Well put, Jhunter.

[Folker]

Kind of odd. I always felt odd going after competition that participated in the same trade my character did. So say I'm a hunter, and somebody else is overhunting, do I go after them? Do I single one PC out of hundreds of other hunters who hunt hundreds of jozhals, scrabs, or gortokos?

Looks like one of them damned if you do, damned if you dont kinda thing. Unless your character is planning to massacre couple of dozen other vnpc hunters along with that pc, I dont see how can they 'deal' with overhunting pcs purely due to them overhunting.

[NewbieHunter Has Given Up]

Real quick, thanks for all the tips.  I try to apply them but alas my character died before I can get very far.  I honestly appreciate the effort of those who took the time to help me.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this.

I love the setting and I think this MUD is one of the best I've played.

But the player base seems to have zero concept of what is to be truly new at this game.

Newbies like me, we don't have the knowledge on how to find the SEKRET water holes or the places best to find food.  We don't have the knowledge of where is best to sell scrab shells or how to survive off 23 sid.  Hell I didn't even know what day was the reboot till I did a search and by the time I got around to logging in... guess what?  There was no npc that could buy my shit.

I died of starvation before I can even find a player interested in my stupid newbie hides and shells.

5 items per reboot? 1 week is nearly half a month in game.  Where do these merchants get their wares from? VNPC hunters? Well then guess that fucks the pc hunters, damn players don't bring shit to the game.  It would be almost impossible for a large Organization to run just off 5 hides per week.  Granted thats not counting their own hunters.  In that case, just tell newbies being an indy hunter is a lost fucking cause, save us the heart break.

Now its unfair for people who know all the in's and outs, to look at newbies and tell them to "SUCK IT UP!" "HANDLE IT IC" well because, you refuse to unlatch yourself from previous knowledge that helps your character and gives your pc a huge advantage over mine.  My character would of lived just a tiny bit longer, if I was able to make just a few more sid.

Now don't give me "Well role playing your characters death should be half the fun" well maybe its fun to you but to some of us newbies, we like to have  a character last more then a week.  I can only role play "failure characters" or "death scenes" so many times before I just want something to go fucking right.   There is nothing, not a damn fucking thing, wrong with wanting a character to do well.

Next time your out in the desert, playing the lonely ranger type.  How about your character not magically know where the best place to forage food is? Or have this strange ability to know where to best hunt for scrab?
Try just living off animal meat and the money you can get from the skins.

I want to see who can really compete as an indy hunter, by playing just a like I did.  Keeping in mind, the only place I had to get water was a city state, because thats the only location I knew where to find it.

And the next person who says "Join a clan" can eat a fucking pine cone.  Those of us who play off peak or at strange random times.  We simply don't have this option.

I'm all about the harsh setting, but don't make it fucking impossible then scratch your head to why most of the newbies left.  The next time the thought that "Arm shoulder be harsher" well forget all those cool quit safe rooms that you know, forget all those watering hole locations, and forget all the other stuff you've learned over the past 10 characters.  Then you'll know how harsh arm really can be.

As of now, I'm going to try some city/clan characters maybe a few other things but honestly I'm a little turned off to this game right now, I think is taking this whole "harsh" thing and making the game unplayable for a newbies stand point.

[Intrepid]

Hey, Hunter.

I can understand your frustration completely.  I think, perhaps, you were
a bit short-changed in trying what I consider to be an advanced role when
you did not yet have the hang of the game.

If anything, trying a city role where you can do things in less danger and
less threat of thirst/starvation is the right way to go.  Hang around with us
for a while and get to know the game.  I think you'll find, in time, you'll
come to enjoy it as much as we do.  The cities are easier to survive in as
long as you're respectful to the people with status and power...of course,
those are the people most likely to hire you too, so it works out well.

Welcome to Armageddon--and good luck.

[amoeba]

I'm going to refute mr. given up a little.  The reason is as was stated in an earlier post, my very first charcter was a non clanned, anti-social, half-elf hunter.  I took that character to 5 days played, only to die to my own stupidity at the hands (so to speak) of a mantis during the last HRPT.  

I will tell you, I studied the documentation on the website carefully and chose a ranger starting in Tuluk.  I never killed much, except a few rats and a ritikki or two.  I mostly foraged to survive.  Never had any money, rarely sold anything.  So it is possible to be a newbie, play outside a city and survive with not clue one as to how to do any better.  

If you picked a class not well suited to surviving in the wilds, yet still try to do so, the diffucultly factor goes up considerably.

I will agree with you though.  I despise the suck it up responses, they don't do much for the morale.

[Ritley]

I live in England.. trust me, you can join a clan. Not the point.. I know Zalanthas is harsh, but you'll never learn to survive unless you learn on yourself. I only just learnt to stay alive longer than a week.

[bloodfromstone]

I understand your frustration completely. I think a number of us have felt the pinch of not having somewhere to sell our hides and such lately. It is frustrating, but, as someone else said, the best way of dealing with it is looking at it ICly. If your hides aren't making you money, look for a different source of income. If you have hides and the shops won't take them, try to sell to other people. They're out there, even if you have to deal with a few unpleasantries when approaching people with chunks of animals. As far as 5 items per shop, well... Honestly, increasing the limit would only help marginally. What I would rather see is the role of 'guy to sell to' broken up a bit around Tuluk, since the hide guy seems to buy rocks, plants, Anne Rice novels, bones, laser pistols, and more. I might be (probably am) overlooking other dealers in the area, but it seems to be a problem that rock grebbers can accidently screw over the hunters and vampire novelists with a few good finds.

Secondly, "Suck it up and deal" and "Find out IC" answers are about my least favorite thing about the GDB, especially in response to something that is not, in fact, IC information, but instead tips and tricks learned through playing a character type, then applied to the next character of that type played. However, I think you're overreacting on this one. This thread has provided a surprisingly large number of good, positive, and helpful responses, to an extent that I would almost suggest it be archived to help future young hunters.

Lastly, I'm sorry you had an unpleasant experience. I hope that you will stay with the game and keep trying different roles. City-based is fun. Clan-based is, too, in the right clan, and it can be done off-peak, it's just not as easily. Good luck, and I hope to see you in game.

[moab]

I think I have a problem with hunters just hunting whatever is available - whatever sells.

Doesn't anyone play hunters that specialize (like in RL?).  Play a hunter that hunts JUST small game or just skeet or whatever.

I know in RL you might see a doe, but you're after a buck, so you don't take the shot.  Same with duskhorn.

The whole "If you can't kill any of these, kill those" mentality smacks, to me, of opportunistic gaming - not really thinking like a character might.

[jhunter]

I see what your saying and it does kinda make sense that some hunters would specialize in a certain type of animal. That said, it isn't unrealistic if some are opportunistic hunters either.

In order to live on Zalanthas, many will take whatever they can get to survive.

[Folker]

I have to say that I had hunting type characters survive without knowing any of the things you mentioned via a simple matter of joining a clan. Good clan, bad clan, doesnt really matter. That, and well ... to be honest, two thirds of the players probably had first 5 of their characters die really really stupidly. It's the curse, AND a blessing of the game. And their 6th character lives longer not because of the baggage of IC info that the character should not be aware of anyway, but because of some OOC info (syntax, nosave peculiarities) And finally ... it's a matter of stumbling into opportunity.

I knew a characters who made a thief type as her first character. In 99%, she probably wouldnt have lasted longer then a RL week. But she got lucky, and ended up nearly pushed in a very cosy spot. It'll happen to you, aswell. But my advice, do push for clans in the beginning, even if recruiters are not going around, 'addressing' you with invitations, look for work yourself. Carry the message across that you need employment, and in most cases, you'll find it.

[Tuannon]

The only near death experiences or actual deaths I have had in game with a hunter were through helping someone else. Who subsequently escaped from whatever it was that was attacking them.

As for the issue about staying alive, I find it is better to hunt or wander about outside only when you have a reason, food.. water.. gortok ears for making purses.. whatever. Don't just wander around because you feel like it. You will need to be in town to make contact with PC buyers which are MUCH more lucrative than selling to Bob the general goods NPC.

The point I am trying to ramble my way to is, until you know what the long playing rangers know, play it close to town and build contacts.