Dialects for languages.

[RunningMountain]

Thought I'd toss this idea out and see what everyone thought.

In certain civilizations over the world, (taking ours for example) there are many languages that are the same but are not, they have dialects which the other speaker can't seem to understand as well. German and swiss-german are a prime example, I know people who don't understand swiss-german at all, but speak german, and I know swiss-germans who can speak both fluently. While it's the same language, there is much confusion between the two.

So I was thinking to myself one night, and said, why not dialects in zalanthas?

The main dialects would be for the two largest languages in the known world, which is spread across many groups of peoples. Which also has the chance to have had dialects form over thousands of years.

Allanaki-sirihish
Tuluki-sirihish

And then any in between tribals with allundean.
Blackwing-allundean
Soh-allundean
Akeita-allundean

And so on and so forth. I think the possibilities for this are endless, now I don't know how it would be coded, either as a new language, but I think most people should understand common sirihish, whereas a Tuluki talking to an Allanaki who is speaking in their dialect form of sirihish would be broken and not understood as easily.

Thoughts?

-RM

[Marauder Moe]

The world is too small and history too recent for any really distinct dialects to form.  The Rebellion happened only like what... 60-80 IC years ago?  Even 230 years after the American revolution, American English and English English are still basically the same.

[Anonymous]

American English and English English are still basically the same.

Hardly.

[Marauder Moe]

American English and English English are still basically the same.

Hardly.

Do you realy think that they're different enough that if there was an EarthMUD, British and Americans should have eachother's text scrambled?

[Maybe42or54]

America has been developping their own territorial dialects since it was formed.

There was a great thing about this in a national geographic I believe. I wish I could find it. I've been looking for it since I read it at the docotr's office.

Here are some websites that are interesting though.
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phonoatlas/Atlas_chapters/Ch11/Ch11.html
http://www.americanaccent.com/faq.html

[Anonymous]

Do you realy think that they're different enough that if there was an EarthMUD, British and Americans should have eachother's text scrambled?

I've met people from New Jersey who can't understand people from North Carolina.

I've talked to people from the UK whose thick cockney accent and odd slang have confused the ever loving shit out of me, and I grew up watching brit TV.

In some cases?  Yes.

[Nao]

Also, literacy helps quite a bit with still keeping a 'clear' common dialect that's understood anywhere - zalanthas doesn't have that.

[Marauder Moe]

I pointed out an analogy to the original topic.  You pointed out that my analogy has a few exceptions.  What do you think about the original topic, then?

[Anarchy]

I dont understand amercians in general.
"Yowl wanfa yella snowcown?"
Weird, freakish people.

[Aldiel]

American English and English English are still basically the same.

Hardly.

Do you realy think that they're different enough that if there was an EarthMUD, British and Americans should have eachother's text scrambled?

Maybe not English English and American English, but maybe American English and Scottish English; those dudes are almost impossible to understand.  Ebonics English too.  Although, I'd rather see some documentation on speech and what words are common in different areas then see this codely added to the game.

[spawnloser]

I can understand Brits and Scots and Bostonions and New Jersians and Ghettosians.  English is english...dialects don't eliminate understanding, just full understanding.

If we have separate languages for dialects, we'll see full on scrambles...and that will eliminate understanding.

No, sir, didn't like it.

[Morrolan]

If we have separate languages for dialects, we'll see full on scrambles...and that will eliminate understanding.

Or we could see partial scrambles for the accents (dialects) that are already in game.  That would be -very- cool, I think.

I'm going to make up some code numbers, assuming that all skills are precentage-based.

What if understanding someone speaking in another dialect was 90% language skill, plus 10% dialect skill?  I'm sure we could make it more complicated, and you'd have to have the language skill as a base.  But this could be a great addition to the languages.

Morrolan

[HaiWolfe]

Won't someone think of the poor, confused newbies?

I can just imagine someone logging in for the first time, maybe having heard of Arm as one of the premier roleplaying experiences on the 'net, and seeing all this partially scrambled text. They'll either think we're all semi-illiterate, or chronic typoers!

[joyofdiscord]

While I don't fully agree with this suggestion, for reasons I don't feel particularly interested in expounding upon, I would point out that impact on newbies would be nil.  When your character enters the game, they are typically surrounded by their own kind, people of the same origin, who would be perfectly understood from hour 1.  (Dwarves, your mileage may vary.  Same if you roll an elf but decide to hang out with humans all the time.)  This sort of addition would only impact interactions with foreigners, which /should/ be kind of weird and confusing.

[Yang]

If you take the UK for example, you will find that people there can tell other people's accent quite easily, even if they are actually only within 50 miles of one another's home town!

It was amazing to see, because its so small. I can barely tell someone from Calgary who lives in Ottawa, and that's over a thousand miles away. Across the bridge from Ottawa it's easy to tell a Quebec accent from a person in Hull: geographically just across the river.

[Ritley]

I dont understand amercians in general.
"Yowl wanfa yella snowcown?"
Weird, freakish people.

I've only ever talked to a few american's.. and that was via instant messaging. One of them being Laura Mars.  :roll:

[Tarx]

Just to interject something spiffy--written language has marked differences from spoken language.
(slight deviation)
The two languages I've studied in detail seem to have some basic rules when written.  Depending on the vocabulary and maturity (and laziness) of who is writing, you start seeing deviations from the rules of writing (where you get the "alright c u l8r" stuff online).  
(back on topic)
When spoken, regional dialects and sometimes regional vocabulary arises to a greater extent, and to an ear that has never heard someone from another place speak the same language with a very much different dialect it can be confusing.

Now as for dialect and "codedly" doing that, I don't think it's a very easy thing to do--it's just going to muddy the waters a bit.  Maybe another solution to this would be for the players themselves to start distinguishing some differences in dialect.  Sure, some players would not go the extra mile to develop this, but some would.  Call your duskhorn one thing in Nak, and another in Tuluk.  Call Krath something else in one of the cities.  I don't really know, but it's another way of distinguishing who is from where by just listening to how they say something.

The effort involved would be a lot greater though, and wouldn't be nearly as pointed as a code change.  Just an idea to throw out is all.

[Roach]

Why do dwarves have their own language?

[Arbonne]

You guys are talking about actually different languages of sirihish? I don't think that's what the original poster was referring to...but I might have taken that wrong. A dialect would be northern-sirihish/southern-sirihish. You can still understand each other, IG, but it's set apart with northern/southern. I think the dialect thing would be used more for other languages like alludean. So you'd have the tablelands dialect and the southern dialect in allundean, unless it's already implemented.

[Tarx]

You guys are talking about actually different languages of sirihish? I don't think that's what the original poster was referring to...but I might have taken that wrong. A dialect would be northern-sirihish/southern-sirihish. You can still understand each other, IG, but it's set apart with northern/southern.

Well, accents are already in place for sirihish, and maybe for other languages.  I haven't had a character that speaks other languages since the accent code went in so I can't vouch for other languages.

Oh, and I was confused--dialect and accent have very similar meanings.
When I think of accent, I think of the difference between northern speakers of English in the US and southern speakers of English.  The entire vocabulary and speech pattern is different for different areas.
When I think of dialect, I think of the difference between (as someone else mentioned) American English and English...

...and now I have no idea why the two are different, but they made sense to me!

[jmordetsky]

The only thing I want to see is a Red Storm and Luir's Accent

[spawnloser]

Accents are seperate from languages.  It's not 'northern sirihish' and 'southern sirihish.'  It's 'sirihish' and 'northern accent' and 'southern accent.'

The reason I can say this is that your accent and your language are two different toggles.

[Vesperas]

I dont understand amercians in general.
"Yowl wanfa yella snowcown?"
Weird, freakish people.

I just have to interject.     You did that all very wrong.

Its:

"Yaw'l wanna'ge ah snowbawl?"

Mostly because the people in the area you were making fun do not have snowcones.  WTF is a snowcone?  *snicker* Oh, and we don't usually add 'f' sounds where they don't belong, that's actually more difficult to pronounce unless its replacing a harder, similar sound, like 'v'.  


Woops.. what an ugly derail.  Shame on me.


On topic:

I don't think accents should really be separated.  That would be... confusing.  You should just stick to using other IC queues to figure out someone's true origin, like.. clothing, tattoos, and mannerisms.

[flurry]

Oh, and I was confused--dialect and accent have very similar meanings.
When I think of accent, I think of the difference between northern speakers of English in the US and southern speakers of English.  The entire vocabulary and speech pattern is different for different areas.
When I think of dialect, I think of the difference between (as someone else mentioned) American English and English...

...and now I have no idea why the two are different, but they made sense to me!

I think of "accent" as just dealing with the way the words are pronounced, where as "dialect" includes the word choices too.  

I'd rather not see dialect be coded (like different languages are), but I would love to see documentation.  It would be neat to have regional variations in how people say hello and goodbye, for instance, or refer to certain animals, coins, wagons, whatever.