The shadow attacks you while you mount your kank!

[jhunter]

Perhaps someone can explain this to me, raiding aside. How can someone, who is engaged in combat, has something in both of their hands, mount a resting kank, make it stand, and then flee in a blink of an eye?

How can someone summon up the powers of the elements and bend them to their will? How can someone get into the minds of others?

Everything doesn't have to be 100% equal to RL.

Mounts that are trained to go from a sitting position to standing when mounted do so as they were taught, it doesn't necessarily take any extra effort from the rider. And the only person in Armageddon that would be able to do as you say above would be a ranger, who become the masters of riding and mounted combat. Non-rangers cannot do as you mentioned above.

[Maybe42or54]

Well, Jhunter. I didn't say there had to be a 100% match to RL. The game, however should be 100% match for itself.

Which is easier to do? Mount a kank and ride it away during combat, or pick up a weapon that someone forcefully knocked form your hands? I think it is easier to pick up a weapon, but the game tells me that mounting the kank is easier. What do you think?

[InsertCleverNameHere]

It might be easier to pick up a weapon, if the weapon only fell at your feet and didn't skitter 10 feet away, or seeing as you were busy trying not to get stabbed when you lost the weapon, there's no guarentee you actually saw where it ended up, which means you have to find it before you can grab it, yes?

I don't really think there should be a penalty for mounting during combat. Combat on a mount is quirky enough, as it's been discussed. Those lacking experience in mounted combat have a hard time getting back on while fighting, plus, if they do, chances are they're just as likely to get thrown off again, which is an even bigger penalty as that causes stun, damage, and I believe they have the lag from having to stand UP again before making another attempt to mount. All the while trying to avoid blows. :roll: *grin* I don't think it needs to be much harder than it is.

[Fragmented]

Getting hit while picking up a weapon signifies, to me at least, that the character is putting their attention on grabbing that weapon. It takes more attention to focus on picking up that (relatively small) sword then it does to leap onto the back of a huge beast, taking your eyes away from your opponent. The possibility of you not leaping the "right way" onto your mount is already taken into consideration, since if you suck at riding, your mount will move away from you while you're in combat, which can be deadly enough. If anything, I think that if a mount is resting, it shouldn't be able to move away. But I'm happy to deal with it and keep things like they are.

[Grey Area]

I can understand why people might want it for dealing with other PCs. My problem, though, is that it would also have to work for NPCs, which is a whole other issue - more than enough of my characters have already bought it trying to get themselves and their mount the fuck away from some horrible NPC beastie. It really does seem dangerous enough as it is.

Especially, now that I think of it, groups of horrible NPC beasties (which is what you're most likely gonna be running away from anyway). Picture, for example, Amos Runner - out on patrol with Sarge and the rest of the Byn. They get jumped by a gith, everyone dismounts and engages. Suddenly, three more gith show up and start wailing on Amos! He's not going to live long enough for Sarge to rescue him, he's gotta bug out right now! So he jumps for his kank, gets clobbered with an extra six gith bonus attacks, and drops dead of acute obsidian poisoning.

Could be a wee bit of overkill.


Of course, I could be wrong and it won't be nearly that bad. Maybe this can be tweaked enough to be workable. Just throwing some stuff out there.

[Yokunama]

I'd love to see some people 'demand' the goods of others, before they begin their assult. It might help decrease some insta-fleeing, and create more roleplaying between the victim and the raider.

This would be very cool.  OOCly I believe that most players would be much better sports about having their PC robbed than having their PC killed.  

If someone runs in and attacks me, with or without a prepared emote, of course I'm going to run away (I've even run away when I am clearly doing more damage than the attacker) because having some maniac run towards you with violent intent is the sort of thing I think a sensible person would try to avoid.  Unfortunately you can't see them "moving toward you" you only see them enter the room (presumably some distance away) and then they are suddenly right up close and poking you with their sharp stick.  Unfortunately, if you are trying to rob people and they always run away you get tired of that too and move to a "stab first and ask questions later" method.

Something I've tried to prepare a few times, but never actually had the opportunity to try in-game, is to have distraction loot ready.  A small pile of coin, an extra full water-skin, maybe some food and a few other things.  The idea is that when pursued by suspicious characters you start dropping the loot.  Not a crippling amount of loot to lose, but enough to distract most would-be raiders.  If I get to choose between stopping and picking up some free loot, or continuing to chase my target and risking my life to get an unknown amount of loot, I may decide to take the free loot and call it a day.  Potentially everybody wins.  The raider makes a profit with little effort and the victim loses some stuff but not all his stuff or his life.  Once again bribes save the day!


Angela Christine

OOCly, I wouldn't mind stripping my character down to nothing, if someone did that. It'd make raiding a lot of fun for both parties.

[Maybe42or54]

Of course, I could be wrong and it won't be nearly that bad. Maybe this can be tweaked enough to be workable. Just throwing some stuff out there.

If you are in that bad kind of way, just flee? There are more then three of you, so you can go back?

[Nao]

OOCly, I wouldn't mind stripping my character down to nothing, if someone did that. It'd make raiding a lot of fun for both parties.

err... Am I misunderstanding something here or did raiding usually involve attacking first before even demanding what you want..? Cause that would be fucked up.
But maybe that would just solve a lot of problems with raiding if they are given the chance to just hand over that fancy cloak and their weapons to that delf before being allowed to leave..?

You can rob them again next time they come by

[Yokunama]

Well, Jhunter. I didn't say there had to be a 100% match to RL. The game, however should be 100% match for itself.

Which is easier to do? Mount a kank and ride it away during combat, or pick up a weapon that someone forcefully knocked form your hands? I think it is easier to pick up a weapon, but the game tells me that mounting the kank is easier. What do you think?

Just play smarter next time, Maybe42or54.

Some animals are difficult to handle and will attempt to throw you off their backs immediately.

Note:
  You may omit <animal> and just type "mount" by itself if you have a
mount already hitched to you.  This will attempt to have you mount the
hitched animal.  However, the same conditions still apply as to whether
you are successful or not.

  Low skill levels will result in being thrown from your mount during combat and being injured in the process. It is possible to be knocked unconscious by being thrown from one's mount (in which case, one will
then find oneself at the tender mercies of any hostile character in the
vicinity).

Bear in mind that fighting while mounted can be extremely risky, since characters are much easier to hit, and generally sustain worse wounds, due to mounts being less maneuverable than a character on foot.

There are already penalties that allows your chracter suffer from when trying to mount.

[Maybe42or54]

Off the topic of raiding.

An animal will only throw you from their back if you are swung at while being mounted. You can mount a resting animal and flee between rounds of combat. That is unrealistic to me. It is also unrealistic that You can continue to watch the person trying to kill you -while- mounting a big ant. It is unrealistic that you can mount a resting animal and get it to its feet, while you are being attacked, then get it to running speed without getting swung at once. In my opinion.

[jhunter]

Well, Jhunter. I didn't say there had to be a 100% match to RL. The game, however should be 100% match for itself.

Which is easier to do? Mount a kank and ride it away during combat, or pick up a weapon that someone forcefully knocked form your hands? I think it is easier to pick up a weapon, but the game tells me that mounting the kank is easier. What do you think?

Picking up the weapon. The -game- says that is easier than mounting an animal during combat as well. You can -not- fail at picking up the fallen weapon. You can fail at mounting a beast during combat. You can fail at fleeing on the beast during combat.

[Maybe42or54]

I disagree Jhunter. I've never seen people fail at mounting a resting kank. Even when they wield two weapons. You can send weapons flying away when you disarm them. You can't make a kank run away by attacking it. Its owner can still mount it and run away.

[jhunter]

I disagree Jhunter. I've never seen people fail at mounting a resting kank. Even when they wield two weapons. You can send weapons flying away when you disarm them. You can't make a kank run away by attacking it. Its owner can still mount it and run away.

You can disagree all you want. That doesn't change that -fact- that it's coded in the game. I've seen it -many- times. I've had failures while attempting to mount a beast during combat -many- times.

Those are the -facts-.

Edit: Something just occured to me. Are you speaking specifically about mounting "resting" animals? If so that makes perfect sense. If they are in a resting position then they can't really "move away" from you when you try and mount them. It still doesn't change that they might throw you immediately or that you might fail to flee when you make the attempt.

[Maybe42or54]

You have had your kank move away when it was resting?

[jhunter]

You have had your kank move away when it was resting?

See above edit. Heh, posted at the same time I was making the change.

[Maybe42or54]

It does change it. Since, again, you can mount a resting kank and flee between rounds of combat. If you aren't attacked, you can't be thrown. And flee is one of the easiest things to do.

So either, there should be a delay between mounting and leaving the room, or there should be a bonus round of combat somewhere in there.

[jhunter]

It does change it. Since, again, you can mount a resting kank and flee between rounds of combat. If you aren't attacked, you can't be thrown. And flee is one of the easiest things to do.

So either, there should be a delay between mounting and leaving the room, or there should be a bonus round of combat somewhere in there.

No it doesn't change it. The mount still has to stand first. While standing they can be immediately thrown. And -any- flee attempt while mounted can fail. It only changes -one- small part of the process and it changes it in a realistic way.

I don't know what else to tell you. There are way more negatives against someone trying to escape on their mount than you -believe- there to be.


No, flee isn't always one of the easiest things to do. I've lost pcs because of failed flee attempts. There are many situation dependant factors that go into a flee attempt.

[Maybe42or54]

Has anyone been thrown from their mount during combat, just by mounting it from a rest to a stand?

You mount a grey kank.
A grey kank stops resting and stands.
A grey kank throws you from its back!

Anyone?

[Yokunama]

It does change it. Since, again, you can mount a resting kank and flee between rounds of combat. If you aren't attacked, you can't be thrown. And flee is one of the easiest things to do.

At times, you can be thrown from your beast immediately after you mount it.

You can not flee with a 100% chance of success. Find ways to prevent your victim from fleeing.

[jhunter]

Has anyone been thrown from their mount during combat, just by mounting it from a rest to a stand?

You mount a grey kank.
A grey kank stops resting and stands.
A grey kank throws you from its back!

Anyone?

Yes, -immediately- after mounting it.

[Mudder]

Has anyone been thrown from their mount during combat, just by mounting it from a rest to a stand?

You mount a grey kank.
A grey kank stops resting and stands.
A grey kank throws you from its back!

Anyone?

Yep, had it happen to me before.

[Angela Christine]

OOCly, I wouldn't mind stripping my character down to nothing, if someone did that. It'd make raiding a lot of fun for both parties.

err... Am I misunderstanding something here or did raiding usually involve attacking first before even demanding what you want..? Cause that would be fucked up.
But maybe that would just solve a lot of problems with raiding if they are given the chance to just hand over that fancy cloak and their weapons to that delf before being allowed to leave..?

You can rob them again next time they come by

Good attitude.

I'm not sure I'd be happy about handing over my weapons.  How do I know that as soon as I drop my weapons you won't attack me, since I will now be suffering from the unarmed penalties it will be much easier to kill me.  I did once hand over my weapons, my pack, my kank, my cloak, and even my boots, but I was significantly outnumbered and inside a specific groups territory (where they presumably have a lot of back up available) because I had accidentally walked off a cliff and fell into an area where all the more conventional entrances were guarded.  They had me dead to rights.  (This character was never able to recover from the financial loss, and eventually died of dehydration because I couldn't think of any non-dehydrating ways to make money with no kank, no weapons, no tools, and no boots.)

If the numbers are nearly equal (for example I am alone and there are just one or two of them) I'll be willing to hand over something to avoid a fight, but I'm not going to hand over everything.  I'll be particularly reluctant to hand over things that make it unlikely that I will be able to make it back to town alive.  I'd give them all my money, all the trade goods I have, and if I keep a mount I'll even give them all the food and water I have on me (if they want all my mounts I'll may need to keep some of that food and water, depending on how far from civilization I am and if I know of any water, fruits or roots available in the immediate region) .  Probably any pieces of armor or clothing that they take a particular liking to, but not all of my weapons.  When you hand over all your weapons you are putting yourself entirely at their mercy, you raise their chance of being able to kill you to nearly 100%, and even if they don't kill you some aggressive beastie probably will.

If the numbers are seriously in their favor, then I'll be much more accommodating.  If my band of 3-4 human hunters, traders or mercenaries is being held up by an organized band of 6-10 raiders and those raiders are really bad ass looking and include a couple of muls and half-giants, then I will seriously consider giving them everything and walking home in my underwear.  Their chance of killing someone in my group is already close to 100%, and their chance of killing everyone in my group is pretty darn good too.  Some of us might be able to escape, but it is unlikely that all of us could escape.  So throwing yourself on their mercy and hoping they leave you a loincloth and a toothpick is not such a bad deal.

Basically my rule of thumb is that the raiders need at least one raider for each target, plus one raider for each exit in the room in which the raid occurs to completely dominate the situation.  If there are 2 targets and 2 exits, there need to be at least 4 raiders to achieve pwnage.  If there is 1 target and 5 exits there need to be 6 raiders.  If there is 1 target and 1 exit than just 2 raiders are needed.  These are soft numbers, a mul or half-giant that looks mean might count as  1 1/2 - 2 people each.  A band that has built up a particularily strong reputation (like the blackmoon of olde) or are especially mean looking might count as 1 or 2 extra guys just on reputation.  A mage, depending on skill and general scarryness could count as 1-10 people.  If the raiders have the numbers to achieve complete domination then they get whatever they want, because they can hurt you more than you can hurt them.  If the raiders can't achieve complete domination then there is wiggle room.


Like everything else in Zalanthas, I think there is room for negotiation even during a raid or robbery.  The robber opens the negotiations with some version of "I'm here, and I'm willing to hurt you to get your stuff" the robee counters with "I am willing to hand over X without causing any trouble to avoid a fight."  This could work because in the end, the raider really doesn't want a fight either.  He wants something for nothing, he doesn't want to get hurt.

Another scenario could involve paying the raiders off or turning it into a trade situation, so that no crime is committed.  "It seems my caravan guards are inadequate for travel through this dangerous region, I am willing to pay you fine fellows 500 sid to escort me to within 10 leagues of Luir's outpost".  Or "that is a truly remarkable arrow you have there, did you make it yourself?  I'll give you a full water-skin or 50 sid for each one you can sell me."  In effect you are buying safe passage through the territory they control.  There is no reason to go to the law or seek vengeance against the raiders, because paying bribes is understood to be part of the cost of doing business in Zalanthas.  You can pay thousands of sid to be escorted by a big enough party of guards that most raider bands will leave you alone, or you can hold that money in reserve and pay it to the raider bands themselves, if they happen to intercept you on this trip -- if they don't you've saved some money, and if they do you are no worse off than you would have been with the massive troop of guards.  I can see a band of thugs setting up something like a toll bridge, but without the bridge, "This here is our dune, you want to pass our dune you pay us 300 sid, in coins or in goods,  or there's gonna be trouble."  And if they pay the toll the raiders are friendly, wish them good journey, and even warn them about that nasty tembo that was spotted 7 or 8 leagues up the road.


You can't negotiate with gith or halflings, besides the language barrier there is the problem that they consider your tasty flesh to be part of the potential loot.  It is hard to negotiate with people who want to eat you.  "OK, you can have the water cask, all the food, and the half-elf if you let the rest of us go without a fight," just doesn't sound right.     But the races that PCs play tend to be more pragmatic.


Angela Christine

[jhunter]

Yeah, the only times it has happened to me where they tried to rp it out first, they wanted me to strip off everything but my clothes. Then after I did, they killed me anyway.  :roll:

That's kinda the way I see it: "Hand over your trade goods...and your 'sids. Then be on your way."

Not: "Drop your weapons....now -STRIP-!"

*waits around, glancing about nervously while you take off all your belongings and drop them into a pile*

*waits longer*

*waits even longer*

*finally you get naked*

*takes the time to gather up all your stuff*

Ridiculous.  :roll:

[Mudder]

Yeah, the only times it has happened to me where they tried to rp it out first, they wanted me to strip off everything but my clothes. Then after I did, they killed me anyway.  :roll:

That's kinda the way I see it: "Hand over your trade goods...and your 'sids. Then be on your way."

Not: "Drop your weapons....now -STRIP-!"

*waits around, glancing about nervously while you take off all your belongings and drop them into a pile*

*waits longer*

*waits even longer*

*finally you get naked*

*takes the time to gather up all your stuff*

Ridiculous.  :roll:

Never had that happen yet. But, that's when you pull a dagger out of your ass then stab them in the head while they are taking their time picking up your gear. It would be cool if they just robbed you then let you go. That would lead to more interesting RP.

[jhunter]

Yeah, and when their intent is to rob you completely naked, it really leaves you with only two choices...

...let them, and die to nature...

... or fight back and maybe get away or die right then.