Magickers and the Law

[SpyGuy]

That's a surprisingly good analogy Cale Knight for more reasons than you listed.  Jews in the middle ages (at least in England) were owned by the government and under its protection.  Surprisingly that is a good analogy to Allanaki gemmers.  They're under protection but only because they're basically owned.  And just like in the middle ages, it usually takes the sanction of the government before any violence occurs.

All that said though, to continue the analogy Jews were often used by good christians.  Why?  Because of laws against usury meant Catholics (ie. all Christians in western europe at the time, i'm talking about 1100 AD here) weren't allowed to lend money at interest.  Jews weren't under those same laws and so had a use, and were protected for it.  Magickers have a use, and are protected for it.  And those that have business with magickers and what they provide will deal with them.  They may not like dealing with them but sometimes you can't avoid it.

[Cale_Knight]

Jews in the middle ages (at least in England) were owned by the government and under its protection.

All over Europe, yeah. I hadn't even thought of that particular point, but you're absolutely right.

[Cenghiz]

The gems are larger than marbles, covered with some obsidian.. I believe they're still small, but think of the contrast.. The inner part is so dark that it devours light and the obsidian around shines happily. It strikes to the eye, I believe.
Being someone playing gemmed folks over and over, I can say I'm not uncomfortable at all with people's instantly catching the sight of the gem.

[FightClub]

Most people would notice a dull black gem very quickly, especially Allanakis, because their eyes would be trained to watch for it.  It's like, uh, the Variety Golden Heart pin or the old 'Jude' shield of David from the Nazi era.

Heh, I don't buy it.  I would say that PCs magickers who sit around in the Barrel are the exception, and that magickers only very rarely enter the commoner's quarter.  Therefore the average citizen wouldn't be expecting to see a magicker and thus might not notice them immediately.

And besides, it is TINY.

Magickers shouldn't even be in the commoners quarter in the first place, what do you think the gick quarter is for?  It always offended my previous character when he saw a load of gicks sitting a his local watering hole.  It's not something that should be allowed in my opinion, even if they're protected by the templarate.  Your common 'nak citizen hates magickers, your common 'nak citizen is probably no more accepting of them, other than having to be than a tuluki citizen.  They're distrusted, freaks, no one likes em.  As far as the gem goes, It's what we call a homing beacon for arrows, personally I wish the gem were tagged to their sdesc like templar would be  A hazel-haired gick...Yeah that's suiting in my opinion, we'll see them dancing in Tuluk now...HAHA!

[John]

Magickers shouldn't even be in the commoners quarter in the first place, what do you think the gick quarter is for?

Honest question: Have you played a gemmed magicker in Allanak before?

[bloodfromstone]

I would equate magickers in the bars to 'rinthis in the bars. ICly, it's hard to pass up a good place to make contacts. OOCly, I'm sure most people would be glad to play a magicker who stays in the magicker quarters or a 'rinthi who stayed in the 'rinth, but sometimes the playerbase just doesn't support it. When I played a 'rinthi, I would have loved to have played entirely in the Labyrinth, but, due to the massively fluxuating pbase of the rinth, on top of my off-peak playing times... Well, let's just say never heading down Southside would have been really boring.

Besides, the Templarate has no reason to make it illegal. The more 'rinthis come and cause trouble, the more bribes they pick up or the more shows they put on in the arena. Or, hell, the more heads they get to cut off for fun.
Same from magickers, though it's a bit different. The more magickers hang out at bars and hear information, the more the templars get to hear. Some magickers work for the templarate, after all. Worst case scenario? The tension builds and some magicker goes nuts on a commoner, burning/pelting/freezing/whatevering him to death. The result? A templar gets to swoop in and kill the offending gemmer, securing the fear of magick in the witnesses, as well as reaffirming faith in the Highlord's power to deal with it.

[Anonymous]

I would equate magickers in the bars to 'rinthis in the bars.

I disagree.  There are plenty of people who will respectfully solicit the services of a mage due to special circumstances, and may not be able to do so by going to a temple (there are IC rules on the boards in Nak), but would otherwise be aware of a mage's existence and tolerate it enough to be in an inn with it.  Does this mean mages aren't feared?  No, but it doesn't mean that people are going to be discomforted enough by them to get up the balls to kick 'em out of the inn, either.

[bloodfromstone]

I meant as far as reasonings for the PCs and players behind them, but fair enough point. 'Rinthis, without the right connections, are worthless trash that you can throw away. Magickers at least hold some value and a good bit of power of their own.

[SpyGuy]

Magickers shouldn't even be in the commoners quarter in the first place, what do you think the gick quarter is for?  It always offended my previous character when he saw a load of gicks sitting a his local watering hole.  It's not something that should be allowed in my opinion, even if they're protected by the templarate.  Your common 'nak citizen hates magickers, your common 'nak citizen is probably no more accepting of them, other than having to be than a tuluki citizen.  They're distrusted, freaks, no one likes em.

This is ridiculous.  The gemmed aren't hated by every commoner.  They're feared and distrusted, there is a big difference.  You may want them out of your bar, that's a perfectly natural sentiment, but I would assume to most commoners ever acting on that urge would be equated with suicide since you have no clue what a gemmer can do.  Tuluk hates and fears magickers, Allanak fears them but accepts their use.  If you want them out of your tavern go to the templarate or militia, but remember that the gemmed might very well have more influence than you because of who they are and what they've done.

As for preventing mages from entering the commons...I accept this on paper as being the majority.  And I think it's reflected in vnpc and npc populations staying there.  But for PCs, what you're basically proposing is removing all gemmed from interacting with other players.  Do show your PC's hate to magickers, hell try to kill them if you think they're a menace.  But magicker PCs can and are trying to drive plots in the game and limiting them to the magickers quarter would only encourage them to practice their skills in isolation, get bored and go out on the wastes to mess around with hunters.

What I'd like to see is gemmed treated more for what they are and in my experience some people do this very well.  As it stands now a lot of interaction with gemmed that I have a problem with is either outright hate or an easy acceptance.  Gemmed are a part of Allanak, they shop in the same bazaar, eat the same food and most were a part of society before receiving the gem.  But they should never be fully trusted and everyone should have a distinct unease around them because they're something different from a normal human.  Make gemmed/mundane interaction more complex than outright hate or acceptance, I think that is the solution closest to how I view gemmed elementalists fitting into the gameworld.

[Anonymous]

Magickers shouldn't even be in the commoners quarter in the first place, what do you think the gick quarter is for?  It always offended my previous character when he saw a load of gicks sitting a his local watering hole.  It's not something that should be allowed in my opinion, even if they're protected by the templarate.  Your common 'nak citizen hates magickers, your common 'nak citizen is probably no more accepting of them, other than having to be than a tuluki citizen.  They're distrusted, freaks, no one likes em.  As far as the gem goes, It's what we call a homing beacon for arrows, personally I wish the gem were tagged to their sdesc like templar would be  A hazel-haired gick...Yeah that's suiting in my opinion, we'll see them dancing in Tuluk now...HAHA!

There are two OOC reason and one IC reason for a gemmer to enter the commons.

OOC reasons:

1)  There are very few players in the magiker quarters.  You are almost better off to go play in Red Storm East then in the elementalist quarters at times.  If you play a magiker and want to interact with people, like a 'rinther, some times you have to cross over.

2)  There is no bar in the elementalist quarters.  If there was a bar in the elementalist quarters I imagine you would see a LOT less magikers in the commons.  Both as a good RPer and as a fellow who wants to interact a little, magikers want to kick back their heels too.  Currently, the commons is the only place to do it.  A magiker should be able to go find a lit place indoors to sit while having a brew.  These people are still humans, not spam casting machines.  There should be a bar in the elementalist quarters IMHO.  People in cloaks should have a place where they can nervously step in and share a few quiet words with a magiker outside of the eyes and ears of the common populace.  There should be a place where two magikers can quietly talk about their newest spells without risking panic and terrified looks.  I imagine ICly such a place exits, it just isn't coded.

IC Reason:

1)  The elementalist quarters likely doesn't have everything a magiker needs.  Sure, some people might rarely leave, but some times you need to go meet non-magikers, pick up something special from the butcher shop, or in general get something that your quarters doesn't have.  It might be as simple as going to the commoners quarters for work.

[Angela Christine]

IC reason #2:

You were born there.  Well, probably not IN the tavern.  But most gemmed were born in the commoner's quarter and lived there for 5-50 years before becoming gemmed magickers.  Some people will want to go back into the quarter where they grew up and maybe run into some of your old acquaintances, and some will want to avoid the place like the plague because they don't want to run in to any old acquaintances.  

This is really more of an IC justification than reason I suppose, since you know OOCly that most/all of your pre-gem buddies are virtual.  You won't run into anybody you grew up with, but ICly you might and that can be a motivation either to go to the quarter or to avoid it.


Angela Christine

[FightClub]

A gemmed, sitting in the barrel, is something I equate to being an uninvited guest at a party, where no one knows you, or wants you there.  It's akward, you get stared at, people might curse behind your back, whisper and point,  so why do gemms put up with it.  I'd think they'd be more content sticking to their quarter, in roshambo Allanak, where they might not get any outside interaction, but shit that's the price you pay for putting the gem on.

As far as OOC concerns go, it really shouldn't influence your roleplay.  You picked a role that quite possibly meant isolation, you accepted that role, and built a character, but now you're complaining about the consequences of being one.  

Firmly I stand behind my opinion, gems, should not be in the commoners quarters, or bar hopping at the Gaj, or Barrel.  I fully understand them, stopping by, grabbing a drink, or moving through.  But sitting in the bar all day and chatting it up, hell no.

And you wanna know the reason why?  First off, having a gem in a bar, is -potentially- gasp gonna drive customers off, good paying, non-tainted customers, who probably spend several days a week in there.  Do you think the owner of that place is going to let a gick sit in there and run off all of their loyal customers?  No, but I've seen it happen, which is silly.

Second off, they have a magicker quarter for a reason, (imms please get these kids a bar, a hut, or a flying palace to converse in so we don't have to see them ;P)  Commoners -do not- go into the magicker quarter, it's as bad as going into the rinth, or nobles quarter.  Now why should they openly be allowed into the commoners?  Rinthers who come into the commons get nasty looks, ran off (and damn well should) Magickers should be no different.

[jhunter]

First off, having a gem in a bar, is -potentially- gasp gonna drive customers off, good paying, non-tainted customers, who probably spend several days a week in there. Do you think the owner of that place is going to let a gick sit in there and run off all of their loyal customers? No, but I've seen it happen, which is silly.

Do you think the owner is going to risk the dangerous magicker cursing him/ burning him to a cinder/ turning him into something nasty/using his family in some unholy rite/destroy the tavern completely....etc. by running him off?

I don't fucking think so. Not if he has the fears and superstitions about magick that mundane pcs -should- have.
If a magicker threatens your average Zalanthan with something, whether it's known OOCly that it's codedly possible or not, you -should- believe that said magicker might very well be able to do it to you.
Most of the time, your average Zalanthan should have all sorts of superstitions as to the possible horrors a magicker could inflict upon you.

I personally think people play the fear thing backwards most of the time. I fear it, so that's why I went and hunted it down or attacked it. Sure, that's fine for the -rare- occasion, but -most- of the time it should be the opposite. The -majority- of Zalanthans shouldn't want to risk offending such dangerous beings.

You wouldn't walk up to a mul and punch him/her in the nuts/tits would you? It should be the same with a magicker. You should be -afraid- to offend them or make yourself the target of -them-.

Now why should they openly be allowed into the commoners? Rinthers who come into the commons get nasty looks, ran off (and damn well should) Magickers should be no different.

Like some of the things I was saying above, I'll add to this particular comment.
'Rinthers don't burn people to a crisp/turn them into nasty things/send them to other planes with a flick of their hands/peel the skin from their bones while they still breath/eat their babies....etc...


Fear factors -should- be as follows:

1) Templars/defilers/mindbenders

2)All other magickers.

3)Muls/half-giants

4)Everything else

Something similar to this, IMO.

[Bebop]

Hrm.

I think there can be a balance with how people play with magickers, and not everyone is the same.

Some people hate magickers, some people are so afraid so entirely annoyed and hate to admit their fear that they will act rashly and attack or go after a magicker, also if the glory or price of killing one is high enough.

Some people are indifferent they'll hire a magicker because they are smart enough to know there are benefits of such a contact and the protection they can bring but at the same time they're not going to sleep with them or piss them off.

As far as Tuluk magickers are going to be extremely feared and extremely hated, some might even see it as a civic duty to kill one if they see it, while others may pass out or run away in fear.

There is no one way someone would react to magickers.  Others may know/have known magickers or even be related to them, these people are obviously going to act more rationally.  That's the great thing about Arm, they have set up the world, but we have the choice to play characters that are or aren't like the majority, either way can prove interesting.

As far as social interaction even in the docs it says that some people are willing to employ magickers, and in a society where people see magickers daily and even a noble house hires them, I think people are just going to keep their mouths closed.  It's Zalanthas and people are going to try to use each other in anyway that they can.  And if that means better life or survival they are going to brave hiring a gemmer that at least appears decent.

I think it's very unfair to assume everyone PC is going to react to gemmers the same way, or expect them to act one way or the other.  It's not bad RP it's versatility and not everyone fits your everyday commoner roll.  Not to mention we all have ideas about what an everday commoner would be akin to but at the same time no one commoner is alike.  Look at our own world, the majority of us may all be lawful, we may not run around yelling KILL BUSH because our asses would be escorted right off, but that doesn't mean we still don't want to see him out of the White House.  Some people however would stage a protest in the road, while others would think he was great.  Some people might try to come into a powerful positiion to change their fate, others may just suffer for leadership that isn't concerned with the pile of bodies on Meleth's.  People are all different, and I would hope other players and IMMs a like could appriecate that.

These are things I do not like though:

       ~Gemmers are akin to breeds in the fact that despite the fact that their our opportunities for them and obviously Templars do not fear them, I think they play up their power and social status to much.  You are still a filthy gemmer.  And to be sure you are powerful, but gemmers are humans too, think about the pain you might've gone through finding out what you were and they way that people would abandon you.  Even if people use you it is most likely that you are always going to be ostracized and kept away from "normal" people.  And if you get to rowdy or people start fearing or you give them cocky looks and this or thats, people are going to start talking and there is strength in numbers.  I can just see a group of Naki's getting scared of the magicker beast and coming up with a group with pitchforks.  A gem means you are allowed to live it doesn't automatically mean you are a first class citizen, you are second class in the eyes of all of the everyday "normal" folk.  And there are far more or them then there are Templars, chances are some of the soldiers you see walking the streets, hate you and wish you would just go away because you make them uncomfortable about themselves.
       
         ~I don't like it when I see people creating scenes with their magickers like they are going to be pitied by the VNPCs in the tavern, they VNPCs in the tavern are going to be afraid or angry at a magicker making any sort of scene or flaunting what they are.  Even if they would use it, it probably makes them uncomfortable to see it shoved in their faces.

          ~I don't like it when people who play magickers just act like it's a ho hum everday job.  For them it is natural but I still think there should be some mysticism in the RP and maybe sometimes you can't even control cantrips or your magick.  I think it should really be an essance, not a clap on clap off type of thing.  The mental struggle and physical energy put forth into every spell and the sheer power of conjuring the elements to ones will, well that's amazing, and I would really like to see people branching out more creatively with these kinds of things, they aren't druids, but I don't see why they can't commune with this entity that they are somewhat part of.  I think it really brings a mystical and mysterious element to the game.  You see gemmers sitting around all of the time, it because kind of an ordinary occurance, I would really like to see people make their magick come more alive, but that's just me.

[Ritley]

Pfft.. my last magicker was a complete mess up, but now I can RP better... and have played the game more this is my opinion:

I don't think magickers do have a breed like viewpoint; like Behop said, they're still humans. Just humans that aren't accepted. Some of them might not be bothered by it; they might think they got their gift from the highlord.. some might worship their element, believing people are just scaired because they don't understand.

In the end it comes down to how your character would react to not being accepted. The easiest way to do this is imagine yourself, and think.. if everyone hated me how would I be like?

Point is: Humans, when mad, will do rash things.. and other normal humans know this, and are scaired of it, so they leave them alone.

So they should be allowed in bars.

[LauraMars]

To the people who keep mentioning the "human-ness" of mages: Don't forget, casters can also be dwarves, elves, half-elves, and etc.  Double the prejudice, double the fun!

Personally, I don't know how that NORTHERN BARD can stand to have filthy witches* in his bar, but hey.  Not his city.

*even if they are enslaved, collared, and leashed filthy witches.

[Naiona]

Hrm.

As far as Tuluk magickers are going to be extremely feared and extremely hated, some might even see it as a civic duty to kill one if they see it, while others may pass out or run away in fear.

There is no one way someone would react to magickers.  Others may know/have known magickers or even be related to them, these people are obviously going to act more rationally.  That's the great thing about Arm, they have set up the world, but we have the choice to play characters that are or aren't like the majority, either way can prove interesting.

In regards to Tuluk only - discovering your brother or best friend or mate is a magicker should have a similar emotional impact to if you in real life suddenly discovered that someone close to you was a member of a terrorist organization and planning to blow up the entire city and then feast on the remains of the children there.  

Tulukis not only still clearly remember the stories told by their parents and grandparents of the horrors perpetrated on the city by magickers, but the lesson is constantly reinforced in every aspect of their society.  Family members turning each other in to the templarate out of terror not just of the magicker, but of being associated with them would not be uncommon and they might tell themselves stories like "That wasn't really our son.  He must have been switched at birth and used to summon some foul demon."

* This next part is my own opinion and not policy - there is no official policy on the issue.*

From what I see, far too many of our newer players (you don't see it too much in the longer-term players) tend to look for ways to allow their Tuluki PC to interact with magick users.  I think it is -fine- to have a character that suddenly finds themselves manipulated or threatened or tricked into interaction, but to go into a character in Tuluk with a background that says 'he will work with magick users when neccesary, but he doesn't like it' - in my opinion only - is the same as playing the elf riding kank.  It is really important to remember just how much and -why- magick is feared and hated in Tuluk before deciding to play against the documentation.  In your real life, would you decide it was okay to work with a mass murderer because he could help you paint your garage?  Playing within the documentation is really just paying attention to what your PC would know and how they would realistically react.

Again, this entire post was Tuluk-only.  Allanak is an entirely different story.  Also, I could use some help painting my garage if anyone is available.

[jhunter]

Also, I could use some help painting my garage if anyone is available.

You just want to get someone there so you can eat their brainz. :wink:


"What's that Naiona? Oh, the paint is -in- the garage. Alright then."

"Hey, what's all this plastic layed out over everything in -here-?"

"Uhh...what're you doing with that machete?"

[jhunter]

Some people hate magickers, some people are so afraid so entirely annoyed and hate to admit their fear that they will act rashly and attack or go after a magicker, also if the glory or price of killing one is high enough.

Exactly, -some- people.
The problem I've been seeing is that too many people are playing what should be the rare exception. I've run into pcs in the wilds too often that are riding around hunting mages....alone.
I've seen too many non-magicker pcs spot a mage and charge in attacking by themselves. I personally believe 95% of the time this is motivated by the OOC believe that: "If I get it into melee, unless it's prepared for it I will get a pk notch under my belt."
My point is that -most- people should be "I'm too afraid of what the filthy mage could do to me, so I'll avoid pissing one off."
Most -sane- people wouldn't go charging a guy with a flamethrower, while wielding only a sword.
There are all varieties of possible reactions to magickers, but I believe that this -should- be the most -common- one.

[Cenghiz]

If you piss of the wrong 'rinthi, you may die even in the hands of the templerate. Criminals have a good network, often better than some nobles can form.
If you piss of the wrong gemmer, you may face him in a jail cell while his master orders him to try his newest spell.
Worse, if you piss of a magicker outside the gates, -I guess I'm repeating it for the 106th time- you're dead meat. Not even a single mage of mine has been killed by a warrior and I'm known to play one magicker after another. Even though I hate PK, I got forced to kill about 30 warriors just because they attacked for no reason and my best bet would be not letting them breathe again to cause trouble.
With my last mage, people again attacked me seemingly with no reason but urge to PK. I again got forced to PK with a character preferring a peaceful life and no troubles.
The documentation is simple. It says mages cannot easily be killed one on one. And the documentation tells the truth. I can also safely say mages do not seek victims, I didn't have even a single mundane character of mine die in a one-on-one encounter to a mage. Because I didn't instantly type "hit figure" ever. Control your OOC urges and you stay alive, also you can be offered greater RP (a group hunt or something, mage's offer for work, a slowed down pursue scene, kidnapping... anything)

[spawnloser]

I can also safely say mages do not seek victims

I can safely say that I've never as a magicker sought victims.  They always come to me.  Most other magickers that I've played with that victimize people, again, had volunteers.  I've never seen one seek to kill without provocation.  Most try non-lethal means first, in all the varities that entails.

[Bebop]

I think that it's also wrong to characterize all magickers the same, as far as a side note goes.

And yes I did mean -some- My main point is that there are more reactions then there are virtual people in Zalanthas.  I think people should try not to characterize the reactions based on what most people would do, or based on guilds or whatever.  Sometimes it's fun to play the exception, there is nothing wrong with that.

People aren't always going to react the way you want them to, or expect them too.  And it may be totally in character.

Edit - I had to add this:  :twisted:

"Beat all you ever saw in trouble with the law since the day they was born."

[John]

I personally believe 95% of the time this is motivated by the OOC believe that: "If I get it into melee, unless it's prepared for it I will get a pk notch under my belt."

I've seen magickers boast that they've had this happen, and well they're still around to boast about it so the attacker obviously isn't around anymore I don't know if the magicker was full of hot air, uber powerful, OOCly smart when it comes to mages and combat or if the recent changes have merely allowed such stupid behaviour to no longer occur. But if the recent code changes have made such behaviour impossible, I'm all for it. Otherwise the Imms better stick with the code until they do change it to make it right

Asking players to be OOCly responsible is a reasonable request. But I personally would prefer that the code make it so the warrior WILL die to the magicker. A practiced warrior to an equally practiced Krathi should die everytime. I don't know about the others, as it's Krathi's who have the reputation for being fighters.

[Bebop]

I would like to mention to kind of show the opposite side, I have seen two PCs insta killed by gickers while attacking them.  Luckily the person reacted quickly because they were getting cut down... but bam, one hit kill.

[Anonymous]

Off the current line of topic, but I have another question about public knowledge of the gem. Is it possible to be an Allanaki citizen and not know about the gem? I had a young magicker once who didn't accept the gem because he was a from one of the outlying farm villages and didn't know about it. Of coarse, that excuse didn't work on the templar and he mearly slapped me up and stuck me with one anyhow.  :evil: