Magickers and the Law

[JRB]

Would a PC from Tuluk, know the laws about Magickers after he arrives in Allanak?  Is it fairly common knowledge of long standing laws in Allanak through the known world?  In specific would my character know how to recognise a magicker who made no attempt to conceal that fact if I saw one in Allanak?

[Cale_Knight]

I think Tulukis would probably hear things like, "Yeah, them barbarians down there let witches walk around, and with gems on their neck to SHOW IT OFF."

And then they'd go have sex with trees, because that's what Tulukis do.

[LauraMars]

One of the reasons Tulukis hate Allanak is because their city was overrun and partially destroyed in the war by magickers.

So in addition to humping tree-roots, a good Tuluki citizen would know their history, and realize that Allanak is a city full of magickers who are under the control of the templarate.

[Anonymous]

The description of a 'dull black gem' is a very simple necklace with a very small gem.  It's been ages since I see one but I believe it's the size of a fingernail.  One of the ways I've had characters have some sort of roleplay when they are the only one in a room with a magicker they don't know is a magicker is to not have them treat the dull black gem necklace as a giant neon sign that says 'GICKER' and essentially have them not notice it for a bit.

Point being I doubt anyone who was just passing through Allanak would have made a correlation unless they happened to have been told about it or seen two people both wearing the same necklace identified as magickers.

[bloodfromstone]

And then they'd go have sex with trees, because that's what Tulukis do.

Hahahah. Ahem.

I think it would be something that would be talked about in Tuluk as propoganda. Then again, I was never aware of how tiny the dull black gems were.

[LauraMars]

I was never aware of how tiny the dull black gems were.

Holy shit, neither did I.  Here I was thinking they were this huge tacky DANGLING thing the size of your fist.  Well god damn, my one big reason not to play a gemmed magicker gone.  Sign me up for tasteful leashes and fear.

[Larrath]

The dull black gem is a pendant.  Its cord is pretty thick for a regular pendant, and it ends in a [probably blockish] obsidian circle.  The gem itself, which is completely black and swallows all light directed at it, is the size of a playing marble.  There is contrasts between the gem itself and the obsidian it's set in because obsidian is very light-catching and shiny.

Pendants and necklaces that are similar in design to the dull black gem pretty much don't exist because nobody wants to have a necklace that reminds them (and other people) of those scary, hideous magickers.  It would also never sell.

Tulukis, being full of art and bards and hatred of magickers, would most likely know what the dull black gems look it.


Most people would notice a dull black gem very quickly, especially Allanakis, because their eyes would be trained to watch for it.  It's like, uh, the Variety Golden Heart pin or the old 'Jude' shield of David from the Nazi era.

[Halaster]

Just so you have a staff answer:  Yes, it would be perfectly fine for a Tuluki citizen to have heard that mages are legal in Allanak and wear gems on their necks.  And it would be perfectly fine for an Allanaki citizen to have heard that all magick is illegal in Tuluk.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Most people would notice a dull black gem very quickly, especially Allanakis, because their eyes would be trained to watch for it.  It's like, uh, the Variety Golden Heart pin or the old 'Jude' shield of David from the Nazi era.

Heh, I don't buy it.  I would say that PCs magickers who sit around in the Barrel are the exception, and that magickers only very rarely enter the commoner's quarter.  Therefore the average citizen wouldn't be expecting to see a magicker and thus might not notice them immediately.

And besides, it is TINY.

[Cuusardo]

I would think that no matter what the size of the magicker's gem, people would notice it.  It is a very unusual and unique item that no one else wears.  Some people might not notice it at first, but in Allanak, people tend to look for that kind of thing.  After all, no self-respecting commoner wants to be bedfellows with a tainted witch.

[Nao]

And besides, it is TINY.

I wouldn't a pendant the size of a marble plus the surrounding obsidian tiny, I  figure it would be about an inch in diameter.

Does this have to be visible at all times by the way, or could your average magicker just slide it under his shirt once he leaves the magicker quarter?

[Marauder Moe]

I'd think that many Tulukis would have the same preconceptions that newer players tend to have: that the gem would be some large and extremely visible item.  I think it'd be pretty common for a northerner visiting Allanak to look at a gemmer and think "Is that a vile magicker?  I dunno, that necklace looks pretty small..."

[Ava]

Quoth Cuusardo: "After all, no self-respecting commoner wants to be bedfellows with a tainted witch."

Hijacking the thread just a little...what should the Average 'Nakker's feelings be about gemmers?  Fear and loathing doesn't seem quite right to me...we see a fair number of them around town, they fight alongside the templarate, they're respectably employed.

I guess I tend to think of the gemmers as fairly rich, dependable, well-connected, law-abiding commoners with gatling guns strapped to their backs.  I'd be real glad to see them on my side in a battle situation, but annoying them is unwise...partly because of their dangerous powers, but even more because they could get me in hot water(?!) with a powerful employer.

[Wykydtronn]

I think different characters should have different feelings.

Although only a fool in the masses eyes, would trust them.

I think some else put it pretty good when talking about half-elves/other races relationships.

You can be drinking buddies
you may even like them
But you'll never forget what they are.

Magicker is a negative word, nothing you would call anybody lightly.

"Hes a gemmer, creepy guy.  Seems nice enough though."

And even more complex question? What if a characters best bud (think tuluki here) turns out to be a magicker?  What if said magicker used powers to save your ass?  That in no doubt will change any zalathian's perception of their friend... if not magick all togather.  Would such an act be meet with fear? Hate? Love? Envy? Would said mundane character be thankful?  Even better, what if they felt all those things?  Needless to say, if you don't "always" meet a magicker character with blind hate... who knows what fun that could bring?

[Cuusardo]

I guess I tend to think of the gemmers as fairly rich, dependable, well-connected, law-abiding commoners with gatling guns strapped to their backs.  I'd be real glad to see them on my side in a battle situation, but annoying them is unwise...partly because of their dangerous powers, but even more because they could get me in hot water(?!) with a powerful employer.

They think of magickers the way that the rest of the world does.  They only grudgingly accept them because they are told to by the templarate.

[ale six]

I imagine most uninformed Allanakis would want as little to do with the gemmed as possible. Gemmers have MAGICK and MAGICK IS SCARY. You never know if that gemmer might get annoyed with your joke or not like the way you're looking at her and hex you. For all you know she could turn you into a newt with a blink, or go back to her temple, summon you there, and make you disappear into thin air...

So forget whatever you might know about magick codedly, have your PC assume any of this is possible, and that's a better way to act around gemmers, IMO.

As far as wearing the gems in Nao's question: gemmers must keep their gem visible at all times, and can never remove it. It'll always be there and visible if someone looks for it.

[Angela Christine]

As far as wearing the gems in Nao's question: gemmers must keep their gem visible at all times, and can never remove it. It'll always be there and visible if someone looks for it.

True.  However, they can make the gem more or less noticeable based on what else they wear.  In my opinion a color-coded elementalist with elementalist robes, elementally-themed jewelry, and magickally themed tattoos will be identified more quickly than someone wearing the gem and "normal" clothes.  Some of 'em are so tricked out with elementalist gear that you could identify them as mages from behind.


Angela Christine

[X-D]

The colored portion of the eye is MUCH smaller then a marble, yet my PC can see what color eyes most PC's have from up to three leagues away.

Taken in that light, that gem is a giant neon sign.

[Intrepid]

The colored portion of the eye is MUCH smaller then a marble, yet my PC can see what color eyes most PC's have from up to three leagues away.

Taken in that light, that gem is a giant neon sign.

Oh my god...I never saw it that way before...   :shock:

I am never using eye color in a short desc again.

[Marauder Moe]

Anyone who says "Hey Sarge, I see a guy three leagues to the south.  He's got green eyes." should be beaten with a diseased tregil.  Seriously, the sdesc is really an ooc primary key for identifying your character.

Anyway, back on topic, I think people forget that there's more to the gem than just identifying magickers.  If that was it's primary purpose, they could have been made to be huge and neon-yellow I'm sure.

[Anonymous]

Anyone who says "Hey Sarge, I see a guy three leagues to the south.  He's got green eyes." should be beaten with a diseased tregil.  Seriously, the sdesc is really an ooc primary key for identifying your character.

Not only that, but having your eyes in your sdescs makes mentioning them in your emotes a little redundant.

The tall, green-eyed man looks about with rage in his eyes.

Anyway, back on topic, I think people forget that there's more to the gem than just identifying magickers.  If that was it's primary purpose, they could have been made to be huge and neon-yellow I'm sure.

Yeah but the gems were only brought up in relation to a visitor to Allanak identifying magickers as such based on the gem.  In that case how noticeable the gem is has a bearing, in my opinion.

I think almost all Allanakis would know what the gem was and what it stood for.  I don't, however, think a player of a Tuluki PC should feel like they are making a huge mistake by roleplaying that they don't notice/aren't aware of what amounts to a small bit of decoration.

[John]

And even more complex question? What if a characters best bud (think tuluki here) turns out to be a magicker?  What if said magicker used powers to save your ass?  That in no doubt will change any zalathian's perception of their friend... if not magick all togather.

Here's a question:

What if a homophobe's (extreme homophobe here) best bud turns out to be gay? What if said homosexual saved your life?

While they can't use their "gay power" to save the homophobe's life I imagine that an extreme homophobe would still hate them even if they did.

[Wykydtronn]

Are you so sure?

I use to hate gay people.  Mainly do to the enviorment I was in, parents up raising and all that wonderful shit.

I found out in 11th grade one of my best friends since was gay.  It was very hard for him.
What did it do to me?  Well I was mad for a little while but then I grew the fuck up and realized that he was still my friend, a human living being like any one else.  Now? I makes me uncomfortable to be near homophobics, why? Because I've seen the shit gay people have to go through to be accepted and even comfortable in their own skin.

That was one of those "life changing" experiences.  Then maybe I'm a fucking saint? I highly doubt it.  I'm also no Zalanthian, so things may be different.

But if you think its so awesome to Role play every time, the same way, with the same reaction.  Sure have fun!  But I tend to think, situations can be a lot more fun when complications arise.

my characters always "fear" magick,  but Fear can lead to other emotions, other conflicts.  Something beyond "Oh noes! MAGICKS FOR THE LOSE!".

[Maybe42or54]

Homosexual people don't have the power to wipe you off the face of the earth with a stray look. I hear magickers can.

[Cale_Knight]

Homosexual people don't have the power to wipe you off the face of the earth with a stray look. I hear magickers can.

Exactly. It's a bad analogy.

A better one would be the way Jews were treated in medieval times.

Christians really did believe that Jews had satanic rituals. They really did believe that Jews killed christian babies and ground up their bones and blood for their matzoh. They really did believe that Jews had killed god.

That is the brand of fear and loathing that Zalanthans have for magickers, but double or triple it or more, because they've actually seen it happen. And worse, they don't get periodic government sanctioned pogroms to vent their anger and rage.

[SpyGuy]

That's a surprisingly good analogy Cale Knight for more reasons than you listed.  Jews in the middle ages (at least in England) were owned by the government and under its protection.  Surprisingly that is a good analogy to Allanaki gemmers.  They're under protection but only because they're basically owned.  And just like in the middle ages, it usually takes the sanction of the government before any violence occurs.

All that said though, to continue the analogy Jews were often used by good christians.  Why?  Because of laws against usury meant Catholics (ie. all Christians in western europe at the time, i'm talking about 1100 AD here) weren't allowed to lend money at interest.  Jews weren't under those same laws and so had a use, and were protected for it.  Magickers have a use, and are protected for it.  And those that have business with magickers and what they provide will deal with them.  They may not like dealing with them but sometimes you can't avoid it.

[Cale_Knight]

Jews in the middle ages (at least in England) were owned by the government and under its protection.

All over Europe, yeah. I hadn't even thought of that particular point, but you're absolutely right.

[Cenghiz]

The gems are larger than marbles, covered with some obsidian.. I believe they're still small, but think of the contrast.. The inner part is so dark that it devours light and the obsidian around shines happily. It strikes to the eye, I believe.
Being someone playing gemmed folks over and over, I can say I'm not uncomfortable at all with people's instantly catching the sight of the gem.

[FightClub]

Most people would notice a dull black gem very quickly, especially Allanakis, because their eyes would be trained to watch for it.  It's like, uh, the Variety Golden Heart pin or the old 'Jude' shield of David from the Nazi era.

Heh, I don't buy it.  I would say that PCs magickers who sit around in the Barrel are the exception, and that magickers only very rarely enter the commoner's quarter.  Therefore the average citizen wouldn't be expecting to see a magicker and thus might not notice them immediately.

And besides, it is TINY.

Magickers shouldn't even be in the commoners quarter in the first place, what do you think the gick quarter is for?  It always offended my previous character when he saw a load of gicks sitting a his local watering hole.  It's not something that should be allowed in my opinion, even if they're protected by the templarate.  Your common 'nak citizen hates magickers, your common 'nak citizen is probably no more accepting of them, other than having to be than a tuluki citizen.  They're distrusted, freaks, no one likes em.  As far as the gem goes, It's what we call a homing beacon for arrows, personally I wish the gem were tagged to their sdesc like templar would be  A hazel-haired gick...Yeah that's suiting in my opinion, we'll see them dancing in Tuluk now...HAHA!

[John]

Magickers shouldn't even be in the commoners quarter in the first place, what do you think the gick quarter is for?

Honest question: Have you played a gemmed magicker in Allanak before?

[bloodfromstone]

I would equate magickers in the bars to 'rinthis in the bars. ICly, it's hard to pass up a good place to make contacts. OOCly, I'm sure most people would be glad to play a magicker who stays in the magicker quarters or a 'rinthi who stayed in the 'rinth, but sometimes the playerbase just doesn't support it. When I played a 'rinthi, I would have loved to have played entirely in the Labyrinth, but, due to the massively fluxuating pbase of the rinth, on top of my off-peak playing times... Well, let's just say never heading down Southside would have been really boring.

Besides, the Templarate has no reason to make it illegal. The more 'rinthis come and cause trouble, the more bribes they pick up or the more shows they put on in the arena. Or, hell, the more heads they get to cut off for fun.
Same from magickers, though it's a bit different. The more magickers hang out at bars and hear information, the more the templars get to hear. Some magickers work for the templarate, after all. Worst case scenario? The tension builds and some magicker goes nuts on a commoner, burning/pelting/freezing/whatevering him to death. The result? A templar gets to swoop in and kill the offending gemmer, securing the fear of magick in the witnesses, as well as reaffirming faith in the Highlord's power to deal with it.

[Anonymous]

I would equate magickers in the bars to 'rinthis in the bars.

I disagree.  There are plenty of people who will respectfully solicit the services of a mage due to special circumstances, and may not be able to do so by going to a temple (there are IC rules on the boards in Nak), but would otherwise be aware of a mage's existence and tolerate it enough to be in an inn with it.  Does this mean mages aren't feared?  No, but it doesn't mean that people are going to be discomforted enough by them to get up the balls to kick 'em out of the inn, either.

[bloodfromstone]

I meant as far as reasonings for the PCs and players behind them, but fair enough point. 'Rinthis, without the right connections, are worthless trash that you can throw away. Magickers at least hold some value and a good bit of power of their own.

[SpyGuy]

Magickers shouldn't even be in the commoners quarter in the first place, what do you think the gick quarter is for?  It always offended my previous character when he saw a load of gicks sitting a his local watering hole.  It's not something that should be allowed in my opinion, even if they're protected by the templarate.  Your common 'nak citizen hates magickers, your common 'nak citizen is probably no more accepting of them, other than having to be than a tuluki citizen.  They're distrusted, freaks, no one likes em.

This is ridiculous.  The gemmed aren't hated by every commoner.  They're feared and distrusted, there is a big difference.  You may want them out of your bar, that's a perfectly natural sentiment, but I would assume to most commoners ever acting on that urge would be equated with suicide since you have no clue what a gemmer can do.  Tuluk hates and fears magickers, Allanak fears them but accepts their use.  If you want them out of your tavern go to the templarate or militia, but remember that the gemmed might very well have more influence than you because of who they are and what they've done.

As for preventing mages from entering the commons...I accept this on paper as being the majority.  And I think it's reflected in vnpc and npc populations staying there.  But for PCs, what you're basically proposing is removing all gemmed from interacting with other players.  Do show your PC's hate to magickers, hell try to kill them if you think they're a menace.  But magicker PCs can and are trying to drive plots in the game and limiting them to the magickers quarter would only encourage them to practice their skills in isolation, get bored and go out on the wastes to mess around with hunters.

What I'd like to see is gemmed treated more for what they are and in my experience some people do this very well.  As it stands now a lot of interaction with gemmed that I have a problem with is either outright hate or an easy acceptance.  Gemmed are a part of Allanak, they shop in the same bazaar, eat the same food and most were a part of society before receiving the gem.  But they should never be fully trusted and everyone should have a distinct unease around them because they're something different from a normal human.  Make gemmed/mundane interaction more complex than outright hate or acceptance, I think that is the solution closest to how I view gemmed elementalists fitting into the gameworld.

[Anonymous]

Magickers shouldn't even be in the commoners quarter in the first place, what do you think the gick quarter is for?  It always offended my previous character when he saw a load of gicks sitting a his local watering hole.  It's not something that should be allowed in my opinion, even if they're protected by the templarate.  Your common 'nak citizen hates magickers, your common 'nak citizen is probably no more accepting of them, other than having to be than a tuluki citizen.  They're distrusted, freaks, no one likes em.  As far as the gem goes, It's what we call a homing beacon for arrows, personally I wish the gem were tagged to their sdesc like templar would be  A hazel-haired gick...Yeah that's suiting in my opinion, we'll see them dancing in Tuluk now...HAHA!

There are two OOC reason and one IC reason for a gemmer to enter the commons.

OOC reasons:

1)  There are very few players in the magiker quarters.  You are almost better off to go play in Red Storm East then in the elementalist quarters at times.  If you play a magiker and want to interact with people, like a 'rinther, some times you have to cross over.

2)  There is no bar in the elementalist quarters.  If there was a bar in the elementalist quarters I imagine you would see a LOT less magikers in the commons.  Both as a good RPer and as a fellow who wants to interact a little, magikers want to kick back their heels too.  Currently, the commons is the only place to do it.  A magiker should be able to go find a lit place indoors to sit while having a brew.  These people are still humans, not spam casting machines.  There should be a bar in the elementalist quarters IMHO.  People in cloaks should have a place where they can nervously step in and share a few quiet words with a magiker outside of the eyes and ears of the common populace.  There should be a place where two magikers can quietly talk about their newest spells without risking panic and terrified looks.  I imagine ICly such a place exits, it just isn't coded.

IC Reason:

1)  The elementalist quarters likely doesn't have everything a magiker needs.  Sure, some people might rarely leave, but some times you need to go meet non-magikers, pick up something special from the butcher shop, or in general get something that your quarters doesn't have.  It might be as simple as going to the commoners quarters for work.

[Angela Christine]

IC reason #2:

You were born there.  Well, probably not IN the tavern.  But most gemmed were born in the commoner's quarter and lived there for 5-50 years before becoming gemmed magickers.  Some people will want to go back into the quarter where they grew up and maybe run into some of your old acquaintances, and some will want to avoid the place like the plague because they don't want to run in to any old acquaintances.  

This is really more of an IC justification than reason I suppose, since you know OOCly that most/all of your pre-gem buddies are virtual.  You won't run into anybody you grew up with, but ICly you might and that can be a motivation either to go to the quarter or to avoid it.


Angela Christine

[FightClub]

A gemmed, sitting in the barrel, is something I equate to being an uninvited guest at a party, where no one knows you, or wants you there.  It's akward, you get stared at, people might curse behind your back, whisper and point,  so why do gemms put up with it.  I'd think they'd be more content sticking to their quarter, in roshambo Allanak, where they might not get any outside interaction, but shit that's the price you pay for putting the gem on.

As far as OOC concerns go, it really shouldn't influence your roleplay.  You picked a role that quite possibly meant isolation, you accepted that role, and built a character, but now you're complaining about the consequences of being one.  

Firmly I stand behind my opinion, gems, should not be in the commoners quarters, or bar hopping at the Gaj, or Barrel.  I fully understand them, stopping by, grabbing a drink, or moving through.  But sitting in the bar all day and chatting it up, hell no.

And you wanna know the reason why?  First off, having a gem in a bar, is -potentially- gasp gonna drive customers off, good paying, non-tainted customers, who probably spend several days a week in there.  Do you think the owner of that place is going to let a gick sit in there and run off all of their loyal customers?  No, but I've seen it happen, which is silly.

Second off, they have a magicker quarter for a reason, (imms please get these kids a bar, a hut, or a flying palace to converse in so we don't have to see them ;P)  Commoners -do not- go into the magicker quarter, it's as bad as going into the rinth, or nobles quarter.  Now why should they openly be allowed into the commoners?  Rinthers who come into the commons get nasty looks, ran off (and damn well should) Magickers should be no different.

[jhunter]

First off, having a gem in a bar, is -potentially- gasp gonna drive customers off, good paying, non-tainted customers, who probably spend several days a week in there. Do you think the owner of that place is going to let a gick sit in there and run off all of their loyal customers? No, but I've seen it happen, which is silly.

Do you think the owner is going to risk the dangerous magicker cursing him/ burning him to a cinder/ turning him into something nasty/using his family in some unholy rite/destroy the tavern completely....etc. by running him off?

I don't fucking think so. Not if he has the fears and superstitions about magick that mundane pcs -should- have.
If a magicker threatens your average Zalanthan with something, whether it's known OOCly that it's codedly possible or not, you -should- believe that said magicker might very well be able to do it to you.
Most of the time, your average Zalanthan should have all sorts of superstitions as to the possible horrors a magicker could inflict upon you.

I personally think people play the fear thing backwards most of the time. I fear it, so that's why I went and hunted it down or attacked it. Sure, that's fine for the -rare- occasion, but -most- of the time it should be the opposite. The -majority- of Zalanthans shouldn't want to risk offending such dangerous beings.

You wouldn't walk up to a mul and punch him/her in the nuts/tits would you? It should be the same with a magicker. You should be -afraid- to offend them or make yourself the target of -them-.

Now why should they openly be allowed into the commoners? Rinthers who come into the commons get nasty looks, ran off (and damn well should) Magickers should be no different.

Like some of the things I was saying above, I'll add to this particular comment.
'Rinthers don't burn people to a crisp/turn them into nasty things/send them to other planes with a flick of their hands/peel the skin from their bones while they still breath/eat their babies....etc...


Fear factors -should- be as follows:

1) Templars/defilers/mindbenders

2)All other magickers.

3)Muls/half-giants

4)Everything else

Something similar to this, IMO.

[Bebop]

Hrm.

I think there can be a balance with how people play with magickers, and not everyone is the same.

Some people hate magickers, some people are so afraid so entirely annoyed and hate to admit their fear that they will act rashly and attack or go after a magicker, also if the glory or price of killing one is high enough.

Some people are indifferent they'll hire a magicker because they are smart enough to know there are benefits of such a contact and the protection they can bring but at the same time they're not going to sleep with them or piss them off.

As far as Tuluk magickers are going to be extremely feared and extremely hated, some might even see it as a civic duty to kill one if they see it, while others may pass out or run away in fear.

There is no one way someone would react to magickers.  Others may know/have known magickers or even be related to them, these people are obviously going to act more rationally.  That's the great thing about Arm, they have set up the world, but we have the choice to play characters that are or aren't like the majority, either way can prove interesting.

As far as social interaction even in the docs it says that some people are willing to employ magickers, and in a society where people see magickers daily and even a noble house hires them, I think people are just going to keep their mouths closed.  It's Zalanthas and people are going to try to use each other in anyway that they can.  And if that means better life or survival they are going to brave hiring a gemmer that at least appears decent.

I think it's very unfair to assume everyone PC is going to react to gemmers the same way, or expect them to act one way or the other.  It's not bad RP it's versatility and not everyone fits your everyday commoner roll.  Not to mention we all have ideas about what an everday commoner would be akin to but at the same time no one commoner is alike.  Look at our own world, the majority of us may all be lawful, we may not run around yelling KILL BUSH because our asses would be escorted right off, but that doesn't mean we still don't want to see him out of the White House.  Some people however would stage a protest in the road, while others would think he was great.  Some people might try to come into a powerful positiion to change their fate, others may just suffer for leadership that isn't concerned with the pile of bodies on Meleth's.  People are all different, and I would hope other players and IMMs a like could appriecate that.

These are things I do not like though:

       ~Gemmers are akin to breeds in the fact that despite the fact that their our opportunities for them and obviously Templars do not fear them, I think they play up their power and social status to much.  You are still a filthy gemmer.  And to be sure you are powerful, but gemmers are humans too, think about the pain you might've gone through finding out what you were and they way that people would abandon you.  Even if people use you it is most likely that you are always going to be ostracized and kept away from "normal" people.  And if you get to rowdy or people start fearing or you give them cocky looks and this or thats, people are going to start talking and there is strength in numbers.  I can just see a group of Naki's getting scared of the magicker beast and coming up with a group with pitchforks.  A gem means you are allowed to live it doesn't automatically mean you are a first class citizen, you are second class in the eyes of all of the everyday "normal" folk.  And there are far more or them then there are Templars, chances are some of the soldiers you see walking the streets, hate you and wish you would just go away because you make them uncomfortable about themselves.
       
         ~I don't like it when I see people creating scenes with their magickers like they are going to be pitied by the VNPCs in the tavern, they VNPCs in the tavern are going to be afraid or angry at a magicker making any sort of scene or flaunting what they are.  Even if they would use it, it probably makes them uncomfortable to see it shoved in their faces.

          ~I don't like it when people who play magickers just act like it's a ho hum everday job.  For them it is natural but I still think there should be some mysticism in the RP and maybe sometimes you can't even control cantrips or your magick.  I think it should really be an essance, not a clap on clap off type of thing.  The mental struggle and physical energy put forth into every spell and the sheer power of conjuring the elements to ones will, well that's amazing, and I would really like to see people branching out more creatively with these kinds of things, they aren't druids, but I don't see why they can't commune with this entity that they are somewhat part of.  I think it really brings a mystical and mysterious element to the game.  You see gemmers sitting around all of the time, it because kind of an ordinary occurance, I would really like to see people make their magick come more alive, but that's just me.

[Ritley]

Pfft.. my last magicker was a complete mess up, but now I can RP better... and have played the game more this is my opinion:

I don't think magickers do have a breed like viewpoint; like Behop said, they're still humans. Just humans that aren't accepted. Some of them might not be bothered by it; they might think they got their gift from the highlord.. some might worship their element, believing people are just scaired because they don't understand.

In the end it comes down to how your character would react to not being accepted. The easiest way to do this is imagine yourself, and think.. if everyone hated me how would I be like?

Point is: Humans, when mad, will do rash things.. and other normal humans know this, and are scaired of it, so they leave them alone.

So they should be allowed in bars.

[LauraMars]

To the people who keep mentioning the "human-ness" of mages: Don't forget, casters can also be dwarves, elves, half-elves, and etc.  Double the prejudice, double the fun!

Personally, I don't know how that NORTHERN BARD can stand to have filthy witches* in his bar, but hey.  Not his city.

*even if they are enslaved, collared, and leashed filthy witches.

[Naiona]

Hrm.

As far as Tuluk magickers are going to be extremely feared and extremely hated, some might even see it as a civic duty to kill one if they see it, while others may pass out or run away in fear.

There is no one way someone would react to magickers.  Others may know/have known magickers or even be related to them, these people are obviously going to act more rationally.  That's the great thing about Arm, they have set up the world, but we have the choice to play characters that are or aren't like the majority, either way can prove interesting.

In regards to Tuluk only - discovering your brother or best friend or mate is a magicker should have a similar emotional impact to if you in real life suddenly discovered that someone close to you was a member of a terrorist organization and planning to blow up the entire city and then feast on the remains of the children there.  

Tulukis not only still clearly remember the stories told by their parents and grandparents of the horrors perpetrated on the city by magickers, but the lesson is constantly reinforced in every aspect of their society.  Family members turning each other in to the templarate out of terror not just of the magicker, but of being associated with them would not be uncommon and they might tell themselves stories like "That wasn't really our son.  He must have been switched at birth and used to summon some foul demon."

* This next part is my own opinion and not policy - there is no official policy on the issue.*

From what I see, far too many of our newer players (you don't see it too much in the longer-term players) tend to look for ways to allow their Tuluki PC to interact with magick users.  I think it is -fine- to have a character that suddenly finds themselves manipulated or threatened or tricked into interaction, but to go into a character in Tuluk with a background that says 'he will work with magick users when neccesary, but he doesn't like it' - in my opinion only - is the same as playing the elf riding kank.  It is really important to remember just how much and -why- magick is feared and hated in Tuluk before deciding to play against the documentation.  In your real life, would you decide it was okay to work with a mass murderer because he could help you paint your garage?  Playing within the documentation is really just paying attention to what your PC would know and how they would realistically react.

Again, this entire post was Tuluk-only.  Allanak is an entirely different story.  Also, I could use some help painting my garage if anyone is available.

[jhunter]

Also, I could use some help painting my garage if anyone is available.

You just want to get someone there so you can eat their brainz. :wink:


"What's that Naiona? Oh, the paint is -in- the garage. Alright then."

"Hey, what's all this plastic layed out over everything in -here-?"

"Uhh...what're you doing with that machete?"

[jhunter]

Some people hate magickers, some people are so afraid so entirely annoyed and hate to admit their fear that they will act rashly and attack or go after a magicker, also if the glory or price of killing one is high enough.

Exactly, -some- people.
The problem I've been seeing is that too many people are playing what should be the rare exception. I've run into pcs in the wilds too often that are riding around hunting mages....alone.
I've seen too many non-magicker pcs spot a mage and charge in attacking by themselves. I personally believe 95% of the time this is motivated by the OOC believe that: "If I get it into melee, unless it's prepared for it I will get a pk notch under my belt."
My point is that -most- people should be "I'm too afraid of what the filthy mage could do to me, so I'll avoid pissing one off."
Most -sane- people wouldn't go charging a guy with a flamethrower, while wielding only a sword.
There are all varieties of possible reactions to magickers, but I believe that this -should- be the most -common- one.

[Cenghiz]

If you piss of the wrong 'rinthi, you may die even in the hands of the templerate. Criminals have a good network, often better than some nobles can form.
If you piss of the wrong gemmer, you may face him in a jail cell while his master orders him to try his newest spell.
Worse, if you piss of a magicker outside the gates, -I guess I'm repeating it for the 106th time- you're dead meat. Not even a single mage of mine has been killed by a warrior and I'm known to play one magicker after another. Even though I hate PK, I got forced to kill about 30 warriors just because they attacked for no reason and my best bet would be not letting them breathe again to cause trouble.
With my last mage, people again attacked me seemingly with no reason but urge to PK. I again got forced to PK with a character preferring a peaceful life and no troubles.
The documentation is simple. It says mages cannot easily be killed one on one. And the documentation tells the truth. I can also safely say mages do not seek victims, I didn't have even a single mundane character of mine die in a one-on-one encounter to a mage. Because I didn't instantly type "hit figure" ever. Control your OOC urges and you stay alive, also you can be offered greater RP (a group hunt or something, mage's offer for work, a slowed down pursue scene, kidnapping... anything)

[spawnloser]

I can also safely say mages do not seek victims

I can safely say that I've never as a magicker sought victims.  They always come to me.  Most other magickers that I've played with that victimize people, again, had volunteers.  I've never seen one seek to kill without provocation.  Most try non-lethal means first, in all the varities that entails.

[Bebop]

I think that it's also wrong to characterize all magickers the same, as far as a side note goes.

And yes I did mean -some- My main point is that there are more reactions then there are virtual people in Zalanthas.  I think people should try not to characterize the reactions based on what most people would do, or based on guilds or whatever.  Sometimes it's fun to play the exception, there is nothing wrong with that.

People aren't always going to react the way you want them to, or expect them too.  And it may be totally in character.

Edit - I had to add this:  :twisted:

"Beat all you ever saw in trouble with the law since the day they was born."

[John]

I personally believe 95% of the time this is motivated by the OOC believe that: "If I get it into melee, unless it's prepared for it I will get a pk notch under my belt."

I've seen magickers boast that they've had this happen, and well they're still around to boast about it so the attacker obviously isn't around anymore I don't know if the magicker was full of hot air, uber powerful, OOCly smart when it comes to mages and combat or if the recent changes have merely allowed such stupid behaviour to no longer occur. But if the recent code changes have made such behaviour impossible, I'm all for it. Otherwise the Imms better stick with the code until they do change it to make it right

Asking players to be OOCly responsible is a reasonable request. But I personally would prefer that the code make it so the warrior WILL die to the magicker. A practiced warrior to an equally practiced Krathi should die everytime. I don't know about the others, as it's Krathi's who have the reputation for being fighters.

[Bebop]

I would like to mention to kind of show the opposite side, I have seen two PCs insta killed by gickers while attacking them.  Luckily the person reacted quickly because they were getting cut down... but bam, one hit kill.

[Anonymous]

Off the current line of topic, but I have another question about public knowledge of the gem. Is it possible to be an Allanaki citizen and not know about the gem? I had a young magicker once who didn't accept the gem because he was a from one of the outlying farm villages and didn't know about it. Of coarse, that excuse didn't work on the templar and he mearly slapped me up and stuck me with one anyhow.  :evil:

[Marauder Moe]

Possible, but unlikely.  Though, remember that ignorance isn't likely to spare you a templar's wrath.

[Larrath]

Pretty much everyone living in Allanak or in the villages around it would know what a gem means, just like they know what a templar's robe looks like.
Magickers are very dangerous and are greatly feared, so everyone should know what the gem looks like.

That said, it's still possible to not know it, it's just extremely rare and weird.

[Cale_Knight]

Is it possible to be an Allanaki citizen and not know about the gem?

I don't think it would be possible at all. Not even in the villages, which are complete with their own templars and soldiers.

[Marauder Moe]

To elaborate some, I think it'd be plenty possible for a villager to have never seen a magicker gem.  Also, it's possible to not know the exact law regarding magickers and gems.  One might only have been taught "magickers have gems" and wouldn't know that law compells you to seek out a templar and get one upon discovering your power.

To not know about them at all would require extreme isolation and lack of any education.

[Anonymous]

Out of the 500k+ people in Allanak I think it's likely that plenty of commoners have never seen a magicker gem and, furthermore probably have no clue about the gem.

Think about it.  If you play a game of telephone with 50 people by the end the phrase is probably going to be different than when it started.  Now magnify that game of telephone by like 100 times.  One commoner finds out that magickers wear these little black gems and by the time this travels via word of mouth it could have been warped to mean a dozen other things.  What's more a small gem worn about the neck isn't instantly recognizeable from more than a few dozen feet away.  Plus I get the impression a large portion of Allanak's magicker population keeps to themselves in the elementalist's quarter.

Compared to a Templar whose passing is probably a spectacle even if it's along the lines of 'Billy, get out of the way there's a templar coming!' and those blue and red robes would be distinguishable from a much further distance than a gem.

[Anonymous]

I am pretty damn sure that every Allanaki knows what a dull black gem is and what it looks like.  We are talking about a population that is terrorized by thoughts of magik all of the time.  There is an entire quarter devoted to magikers.  You might not walk into the quarters, but you better believe that people look in as they walk along the main drag.  I don't see how you could live your life in Allanak and never once look off the busiest street in all of Allanak and not see a creepy ass magiker with his little gem.  Even farms from outside of Allanak will know of the gem, even if they might not recognize it.  

Being able to spot a magiker is FAR too important of a piece of information for your average Allanaki to not get it right.  In a city where the gem has been tradition for hundreds (thousands?) of years, you can rest assured that the idea of "dull black gem = magiker" is burned into the minds of every Allanaki in the empire.  The gem is a part of Allanaki culture in such a deeply rooted way that you would have to cut off from Allanaki culture entirely to not know of it.

The only people in Allanak that I could possibly imagine having not seen a gem in their entire life are perhaps some 'rinthers.  If you have lived your entire life in the 'rinth I suppose it could be reasonable that you have never seen a gem.  Even then though, I imagine even 'rinthers at least know of the gem, even if they might not recognize it.  Remember, Allanak is a REALLY ancient and the gem has been around for as far back as anyone can even imagine remembering.  The gem is deeply burned into Allanaki culture and the knowledge of what that gem means is of the utmost importance to most citizens.  Failing to recognize a gem is a damn good way to make yourself a social outcast as you get too friendly with a vile magiker.  Such an ancient and deeply ingrained culture would never fail to teach the lesson of what that gem is.

[Angela Christine]

I believe that if you asked most Alanakis "what does a single black jewel worn around the neck mean?" they would all know it is probably an elementalist's tag.  You ask the question, they think about it, they tell you the answer.


However those that don't deal with mages might not see the gems very often, you might not have ever seen one at all.  If you see someone in mage robes in/near Allanak you'll naturally look at the throat to check out the gem.  But if you see someone in regular clothes, you might not notice the gem.  It isn't "a large blinking fuschia gem (glowing) (buzzing)" it is "a dull black gem".  Obsidian jewelry is fairly common, so a small black stone won't necessarily jump out at you.

I think the defining point would be whether you have dealt with mages before.  If you have seen mages wearing the gem, then you will automatically notice it in the future, regardless of whether they are wearing mage robes or not.  If you have not seen or dealt with mages in the past you might not notice the gem on a mage in ordinary clothes, and therefore not recognise it as significant.

"Amos you ol' kankfecker! Why was you markin' time with that magicker?"

"Me?  Malik, you krath-struck bastard, I ain't never gone near no magicker no way no how!"

"That redhead at the bar, the one with wit' the gem on 'er throat.  I saw you with my own eyes."

"Shit!  I didn't notice no gem!  OMG!!!111"

Angela Christine

[Tuannon]

I was thinking today about the gem..

Okay, you have the gem, which is as I understand it.. a dull obsidian bead on a piece of string right?

Can we have some embellishments on gems? For example.. mister muckity muck Oash has a gemmer who has been with the family for years, born into the family's service.. 100% loyal.. very useful.. knows his place..

Why could said gemmer not be rewarded with a fancier collar?

[Larrath]

Why could said gemmer not be rewarded with a fancier collar?

First of all, though I hate to say it, you should find out IC.

To more practical (if vague) answers:
Many magickers would probably resent being given a new, fancier gem.  It might also create a second social tier among the gemmers that could prove to be a bad thing for a variety of reasons, such as marking the important gemmers and thusly make them easier assassination targets.
The Templarate might be hesitant to make any alterations to the currently used system and/or to replace or remove the gems from magickers.
It would make the gemmer harder for the populace to recognize as a mage, and that can potentially cause trouble.

[Pantoufle]

Many magickers would probably resent being given a new, fancier gem. It might also create a second social tier among the gemmers that could prove to be a bad thing for a variety of reasons

Hey, good point!

I think the idea is that the 'dull black gem' is not a mark of pride but one of registration.  If you're wearing one, it means you've been institutionalized.  It's not there to look pretty.  When you're in the military, whether you're a Private or a General, you have the same dull looking set of dog tags.  You don't get a fancier pair just for heroic deeds.

If an employer wishes to reward their "gemmed" servant, they'd likely do so with a multitude of gifts and favors.  They might put their servant in a prettier aba or grant them jewelry, but in the end all of the city-state's legal elementalists are on the same level with regards to what they are: registered mages -- nevermind how high up the political ladder they may be.  The gem is an identity card, not a badge of honor.

I won't belittle you with the condescending, stock phrase "Find Out IC".  Instead, I'll suggest that, provided you have an IC reason to do so, you try to learn the IC circumstances of these gems.  If you did that, you'd likely understand even more why your idea will probably never come to fruition.

[spawnloser]

Think of it like this...the dull black gem is the flair that Nazis made the Jews wear.

[jhunter]

Think of it like this...the dull black gem is the flair that Nazis made the Jews wear.

Yeah, except the Jews weren't capable of shooting fire out of their asses and frying the Nazis unfortunately. So, I'd say that southerners would kinda be on the look out for them even more.

[Pantoufle]

I don't think the gems are comparable to Jewish ghetto insignia at all.  The only similarity is that it's required to wear and that the elementalists are, in a sense, segregated insomuch as they have their own district (but not one which they are confined to).

What is publicly known and help file/documentation accessible is that the gems are for the purposes of registration.  Again, it's an identity card, but I think attempting to parellel them with Nazi Germany is innacurate.

[Boggis]

What is publicly known and help file/documentation accessible is that the gems are for the purposes of registration.  Again, it's an identity card, but I think attempting to parellel them with Nazi Germany is innacurate.

I'd agree with that. The Star of David symbol that the Jews were required to wear was something that actually took all their rights away - they were no longer citizens of Germany, they could not work with non-Jews, could not run their own business, etc. The gem on the other hand actually affords a magicker rights in that they are recognised as a citizen of Allanak (and the miniscule amount of rights that entails) and are allowed to work alongside other citizens if an organisation decides to permit it such such as Oash or the Templarate.

[spawnloser]

You all are reading WAY too much into what I'm saying.

My point was that it is what keeps them seperate from everyone else.  An undercover magicker can walk into Nak and make friends with just about anyone.  A gemmer can NOT.  

The gem may be what gives them their legal rights, but it takes away so much more too.

It is also like the Star of David that the Jews were forced to wear in Nazi Germany because both are required by their fascist oppressors

...

Plus, none of you are any fun.  Not a single one of you caught my Office Space reference?

[Olaf]

Plus, none of you are any fun.  Not a single one of you caught my Office Space reference?

What ... you want me to wear 15 light absorbing necklaces?

[Anonymous]

I don't think the gems are comparable to Jewish ghetto insignia at all.  The only similarity is that it's required to wear and that the elementalists are, in a sense, segregated insomuch as they have their own district (but not one which they are confined to).

What is publicly known and help file/documentation accessible is that the gems are for the purposes of registration.  Again, it's an identity card, but I think attempting to parellel them with Nazi Germany is innacurate.

Gem is identity card all right, but it reveals your certain social status of pariah, not your guild_magicker alone.

From your other posts I've figured that you had some experience playing criminal types. So, you could have heard of possibility to attain dull black gem even if your PC has nothing to do with magick. When your rinthi elf pickpocket gets branded with black gem it's a punishment, that throws him further down the social well, bringing him to the status that registered magickers have as given. The fact that he still havn't unnatural powers to compensate his sub-human status is a different matter.

Speaking of documentation, I'd suggest you to read this:

Registered elementalists are forced to wear the gems, ostensibly to openly display their profession. Speculations, although not made in front of the templarate, suggest that the gems may be used to monitor or police elementalists as well. Some have gone so far as to suggest that Tektolnes uses the gem to siphon elemental power from magick users, although this seems far-fetched.

Specualations given are probably not exactly accurate, as well as parallel with Nazi, yet I somehow doubt they were put into documentation for entertaining purposes alone.

As for the rest of the docs, word "hated" is used on par with "feared" when commoner's feelings towards elementalists of Allanak described.
Hatred and fear is dangerous mixt, you never know which will prevail when you push it on your opponent. That is why said docs suggest to  registered magickers keep low profile, instead of roaming taverns with "don't you fear me" look and attitude.

I've seen elementalist forgetting they are hated pariahs for what is called 'playability issues'. To me they still fall under category of kank-riding elves and Barrel-living Tor nobles.