The Way and new characters.

[Dizzy kank]

Alright, seriously... using the Way is far too hard for new characters. It costs like 30 stun points to try to contact someone, and fails something like 5 out of 6 times. It's practically impossible to rely on it in any way. My character is 3 days old now (3 days played, not existed for 3 days), and it still takes me up to 5-10 minutes to deliver a message to someone because I have to contact, fail, contact, fail, contact, fail, contact, fail, rest, contact, fail, contact... it's ridiculous. It should either fail often or cost a lot of stun, not both. Do we have to sit and twink-train it when we don't need to so that we can actually use the damn skill when it's necessary?

[Cale_Knight]

I, too, think that newbie contact is stupid silly.

[mansa]

...

And when we up the starting skill percentage again, people will complain that it is still too hard to use.

It's the circle of life.  I find it perfectly fine.

[Tuannon]

Moofassa should be making circle of life comments, not Mansa.

On the matter of contact, I tend to rest before contacting someone, the reasoning being, it makes you dizzy so you had best lie down or sit down before you fall down.

[ibusoe]

Would like to see it raised as well.

[Halaster]

If I had my way (hee hee), we'd make it much, much harder for everyone and limit the effective range of it.  I've always loved the idea of having to send notes for those who can write, and messengers for those who can't.   The Way, specifically contact, is something that helps make the game a bit more playable since we don't have hundreds and hundreds of players online at once.

So, personally, I think it's fine the way (hee hee) it is.

[Armaddict]

I second Halaster's opinion on all counts.

[Fragmented]

No way (hee hee). It should be just like you just described it Halaster. Limited range. If you're a Tuluki who goes to Allanak for some trade, make it so your friends don't know if you got ganked or not until they see you again. Hunters who move far from the base of operations may or may not be alive after trying to take down that uber creature. People who flee their previous binds in Allanak should be -able- to blend anonymously in Tuluk, even if as a visiting southerner. I really, really, really would like to see this implemented. To balance the playability issue, make contacting people within range much easier. That way, if you can't get their mind after 2 or 3 tries, you know they're not online, or out of range and don't have to keep trying to contact yourself into unconciousness.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As do I.

Besides, they already have made it easier a couple of times. No more.

[Author]

I wasn't talking about making the Way any better in general, and talking about range and such is totally beside the point. What I meant was that for new characters compared to characters who have been around for long enough to get a decent Way skill, it's too poor. If your employer, for example, contacts you with a question, it can easily take 5+ minutes to answer him, and he won't know if it's because you can't reach him or are ignoring him. It costs me nearly 30 stun to attempt to contact someone if I'm resting, and over 40 if I'm standing. It more often than not fails 5-6 times in a row on people who have just contacted me. For being the one single way of long-distance communication, and being very much a necessity for anyone with a job or someone they have to report to, it is way too poor to start off with. I'm not saying "make the way better", like some of the repliers apparently believe, but "make it easier for new characters to use, because as it is now, it is so ridiculously bad".

[Author's edit]

And if you don't make it better, then at least take my advice: if you're an employer or otherwise a person who occasionally demands other players to report back to you, stop getting angry or causing IC consequences to new players when they can't answer you right away. I've had this happen to me several times, being told things similar to "Are you gonna answer me or do I give the job to someone else, commoner?". It can easily take several full stun pools to even reach you, so cut the new players some slack. Not saying that you do this, but some do.

[Maybe42or54]

Employers can get around the way by saying "Stupid fucker, meet me at the bar. We'll talk in person." Face to face conversations just make sense, right?

[Anonymous]

With new characters, The Way is needlessly difficult reletive to even 5 day characters. Let's also keep in mind that needlessly difficult for new charecters also means needlessly difficult for new players, a resource we cannot afford to waste.

Call me a twink but I tend to train contact repeatedly on npc's. Again, some might call it lame but I think it's just an ooc workaround for an ooc problem.

[Armaddict]

We should all be able to fight well and disarm well and backstab well from the beginning too.  Actually, we do.

Contact is a skill like any other.  The fact that it's used for communication isn't basis to improve it for no reason other than it's annoying.  It is still a -skill-.  It goes up with time, and people who use it more are better.

In my opinion, wanting it higher from the start because it would be easier isn't basis to start upping starting skills.  If you have to contact five time before you finally connect...that's fine.  Like I said, you'll get better.

I dunno.  I understand the frustration, but I don't think the frustration means we should do away with it.  Like Halaster said...I consider it a gift that the Way is even as useful as it is.  I'd rather see it less so...and then suddenly those mindbenders are ten times more scary.

[picklehead]

The way's not that hard to get a handle on if you use it in a reasonable manner. Honestly.. I've never had much trouble with it. Would it be wrong to give a couple tips? Heh.

[Maybe42or54]

Maybe if people met in person more, instead of asking you questions over the way...

[Ktavialt]

If I had my way (hee hee), we'd make it much, much harder for everyone and limit the effective range of it.  I've always loved the idea of having to send notes for those who can write, and messengers for those who can't.   The Way, specifically contact, is something that helps make the game a bit more playable since we don't have hundreds and hundreds of players online at once.

Yep, you can always copy the gay assed notify command from SOI to
balance out the playability of being able to contact other players. But,
then again, I can't manage referring to that command without prefixing
it with gay assed... so maybe not.

[Hymwen]

We should all be able to fight well and disarm well and backstab well from the beginning too. Actually, we do.

Contact is a skill like any other. The fact that it's used for communication isn't basis to improve it for no reason other than it's annoying. It is still a -skill-. It goes up with time, and people who use it more are better.

Well, very few employers and contacts expect you to be able to efficiently disarm or backstab them when they need you to. For a skill that is so clumsy in the beginning, people sure make you rely on it a lot.

[grog]

I'd love to see limited range at low skill, and for those that complain about how hard it is, make is limited range but less stun.   Then when you get skilled enough to contact your cousin across the world, make it take more stun, maybe even a lot more.  

So new characters can contact employers in their town more easily, but a merchant in Tuluk needs to send a messenger, find someone skilled in the way, or make a dangerous journey to talk to their counterparts in Allanak.

[bloodfromstone]

Starting off terrible at the Way is damaging to a new player's experience, I can vouch for this. It's silly, because, as someone already said, it's a playability issue to have it in the game to begin with. Yes, it would be awesome if the Way was more limited, but it's not. It's something everyone relies on, day-to-day, hour-to-hour, conversation-to-conversation. It's how we get jobs, deliver information, and find out who in our clan is online. So long as the Way is such a huge part of social interaction, I think that it is silly to make it so easy for new players to pass out and get robbed/killed and/or overlooked for a job simply because the Way is treated as a second language that everyone knows in the game setting, but treated as a non-essential skill by the game mechanics.

[RogueWarrior]

We should all be able to fight well and disarm well and backstab well from the beginning too.  Actually, we do.

Contact is a skill like any other.  The fact that it's used for communication isn't basis to improve it for no reason other than it's annoying.  It is still a -skill-.  It goes up with time, and people who use it more are better.

In my opinion, wanting it higher from the start because it would be easier isn't basis to start upping starting skills.  If you have to contact five time before you finally connect...that's fine.  Like I said, you'll get better.

I dunno.  I understand the frustration, but I don't think the frustration means we should do away with it.  Like Halaster said...I consider it a gift that the Way is even as useful as it is.  I'd rather see it less so...and then suddenly those mindbenders are ten times more scary.

That's beside the point. The fact is, that The Way is a common part of life, and the average Zalanthan probably uses it more times a day than he/she can count on their fingers, so it doesn't really make any IC sense for it to be crap once you start the character. I mean, it just doesn't make sense for me when a 30 year old human has to walk up to you, because what he's been doing all his life suddenly stopped working. I'm not saying we up the skill or anything, I'm saying that if we are going to make it hard for new characters, make it harder for old ones. It should just be more balanced among the playerbase, if nothing else than for IC accuracy.

[Larrath]

My only beef with the low-starting Contact skill is that it makes life hell for new players.  They don't manage to have it work, they don't usually know they can sit down to lose less Stun points, and in many cases they end up passing out and having their belongings stolen.
Most likely this will often lead the players to consider Ginka's sexual orientation and then leave.

[spawnloser]

Maybe a blurb in the docs that tell people not to rely on the Way for communication early on?

Personally, I'm fine with the way the Way works.  I never have problems besides my own stupidity when using it.  [Editted to add: my first character NEVER used the Way.]

Still, I would find it awesome if there were ranges...in room is easier and takes less stun...but across the world?  You'd better be damn good.

The only issue I see with this is what if people aren't logged in?  What range is used?  People will be able to start using contact to find out if someone's logged in.  ("I know Amos didn't leave town, so getting that stun cost must mean that he's logged out.")  Ideas?

[jmordetsky]

If I had my way (hee hee), we'd make it much, much harder for everyone and limit the effective range of it.  I've always loved the idea of having to send notes for those who can write, and messengers for those who can't.   The Way, specifically contact, is something that helps make the game a bit more playable since we don't have hundreds and hundreds of players online at once.

So, personally, I think it's fine the way (hee hee) it is.

I hate the way.

[Angela Christine]

Legalize literacy!  I'd rather leave or send a scroll to someone than way 'em anyway.  Written messages have a much greater chance of being intercepted.  They also have a tendency to hang around and become incriminating evidence.   Literacy for all!


Ok, back on topic.  As for newbie psionics, I think it is ok the way it is.  If you think you are dealing with a newbie ask them to meet you somewhere rather than psi you.  It is also handy if you state your name and location in your message, the name makes it easier for them to zero in on your mind (they may have forgotten your name or the spelling of your name) and the location gives them the options to try to find your body if they can't find your mind.  You know that expertise with the Way is extremely variable, so work that into your roleplay.


Angela Christine

[Cale_Knight]

You know that expertise with the Way is extremely variable, so work that into your roleplay.

No, what my character knows is that %99.9999999 of everyone in the world is great at the way, and somehow, every now and then, some complete idiot (read: new PC) manages to get through life without, apparantly, having ever used it.

[SpyGuy]

With my first PC I thought that the desert elf who contacted me to get around the language barrier was a mindbender  :roll:   Then at some point I looked up help contact and was no longer that stupid.

Newbie contact is harsh, but it does get better fairly easily.  I like the way how it is.

[bloodfromstone]

As for newbie psionics, I think it is ok the way it is. If you think you are dealing with a newbie ask them to meet you somewhere rather than psi you.

Part of the trouble is that no one does the latter. Another part is that it is nothing but frustrating to sit and fail contacts over and over then have to wait for your stun to come back. I don't think anyone wants to spend 10 rl minutes trying to contact someone, send them a one line message, then break contact instantly for fear of passing out. You'll probably get a message back something like "I'm a busy man. I can't meet you personally right now, but we can mindspeak about it." I know newb contact still drives me nuts, even though I've already suffered through it and know the ropes my share of times.

You know that expertise with the Way is extremely variable, so work that into your roleplay.

This just doesn't work from an IC perspective. Everyone that everyone interacts with on a frequent level is good enough with the Way to punch out a bunch of secret messages in no time flat while at the same time chatting up Slutty McAidealot. It's not that the person has poor expertise with the Way, it's that they're grasp of it is that of someone who has never used it before. People have to scramble up an IC justification for why they suck at the Way, and it's almost always silly. "Oh, I'm just not real good at this mind stuff." or "The Way's real hard for me." then three weeks later they're psiing you about how to cook scrab heads while sparring and juggling bone-bladed chainsaws.

The Way, as we use it now, is an essential part of life. I would actually love to see this changed, but, until it does, noob contact is always going to seem like nothing more than a frustrating game mechanic to me. One that probably has cost us a decent number of players.

[Cale_Knight]

Slutty McAidealot

Ah ha ha ha.

[Armaddict]

The Way, as we use it now, is an essential part of life.

Maybe it's not supposed to be used the way you're envisioning it being used, or how it is commonly used.

If the skill is upped, we'll know that's the intended usage.

If it remains the same...we'll know it's something that -is- supposed to come with more time using it.  Hey...if you get more involved in plots where you can't speak with someone directly, you'll get better faster.  If you get more involved in plots with people directly around you...you'll use it less, because it's less necessary.

Strong ability with the Way is something that comes from necessity in my mind, not something -every- person will just have.

[flaran]

Okay, let me contradict some of you people.

The Way is NOT hard for new characters.  It is only even SLIGHTLY hard in your first day of play and if you use it at all, by the second day of play you should be able to use it relatively easily.  One thing I would suggest, though, is that new users of the Way may feel better doing it (and thus accomplish it more and learn faster) if they are COMFORTABLE  :wink: when trying.

[Hymwen]

The Way is NOT hard for new characters. It is only even SLIGHTLY hard in your first day of play and if you use it at all, by the second day of play you should be able to use it relatively easily.

I must say that I completely disagree, and think that the above is untrue. Unless your characters spend the entire first day of playing time on their back, contacting people as soon as they recover enough stun points to do so...

[flaran]

Your mileage may vary, I suppose.

[bloodfromstone]

Of course the Way is easy when you know the code, you know to sit, you know the limitations of new characters, etc. That's really not the point, though. The point is how it operates for new players, who don't know these things. Regardless of how easy or simple people may say it is, the fact remains that we have all seen  pretty much every newbie ever pass out, usually more than once trying to get contact to work. Most of us, I'd wager, have been this newbie, too. And, honestly, if I hadn't had a friend who was already in the game, telling me how awesome it was, I probably wouldn't have been willing to spend the rl time it takes to recover stun, wait to regain consciousness, sit and try and try to contact. Maybe I give up to easily, but I'm not alone.

[Folker]

Hymwen's pretty accurate. Unless you found some spot, rested your character and continiously contacted random keywords the Way IS difficult to learn. What's worse, it is difficult to learn for new players, who are yet not fully aware how skills are learned, etc.

In my opinion, the way is a completely 'warped' concept. It helps those who dont need help, and screws those who dont. What I mean by this, is that the way communication is indeed mostly beneficial due to playability issue. It doesnt increase the roleplay value of Armageddon, perhaps it actually slightly decreases it, but in terms of playability it helps the Arma experience considerably, unfortunately in a way most opposite to what it should be.

At the moment, the people who are in greatest need of playability aid are completely crippled in way, and people who are already established and set up, can use the way so easilly and freely, they end up with a constant option of having their conversations 95% safe from eavesdropping.

I wouldnt mind making the way more difficult or limited to established people, but I would most definately prefer newer characters being more versatile about it. Even if it meant a gradular decrease in affinity towards the way with age, etc. Though I fear by 'age', i mean the days the chara was alive for, not the actual age of a chara.

[FightClub]

Alright, seriously... using the Way is far too hard for new characters. It costs like 30 stun points to try to contact someone, and fails something like 5 out of 6 times. It's practically impossible to rely on it in any way. My character is 3 days old now (3 days played, not existed for 3 days), and it still takes me up to 5-10 minutes to deliver a message to someone because I have to contact, fail, contact, fail, contact, fail, contact, fail, rest, contact, fail, contact... it's ridiculous. It should either fail often or cost a lot of stun, not both. Do we have to sit and twink-train it when we don't need to so that we can actually use the damn skill when it's necessary?

Just twink train it like we all do.

*watches his characters nostril beginning to bleed, and nods in satisfaction*

You prove strong with the force young jedi.

[WarriorPoet]

Contact is probably the easiest skill to get to a playable level.

You whiners are lucky it's not up to me, because if the Way managed to survive my first few seconds in charge intact, I would at least make it far, far more dangerous to use in public places. I'm talking a low, low cap for EVERYONE except Psion's, and much stiffer penalties for 'suffering' and contacting. It's a necessary evil, for playability, but I would drop it in a second if I could.

As it stands, I've never had a character fail contacts more than twice after the two-day mark. It's a bitch in your first twelve hours, but if you're making friends and using contact, you ought to see improvement fairly quickly. Suck it up, guys.

I once had a guy hire me to carry a note to Tuluk. Though I never made it, I found out later, with another character, that the note had been lifted from my corpse and carried on. Changing hands a few times, it went through a 'sub'-plot, giving alot of fun to random others. It was eventually returned to the sender. None of this amusing stuff would have went down if the sender had cheezed it and used the Way yet again.

-WP

[bloodfromstone]

The trouble is, everyone keeps saying how easily playable the Way is. I am not disagreeing. I can get a character to an easily playable point in no time without passing out. I'd think just about all of us, people who have played the game a while, can. That's really not the point. Some nw players aren't going to just "suck it up". They're going to "leave the mud". We've all seen it happen, I'm sure.

[moab]

No one will just "leave the mud" if they pass out.  The way _is_ hard for new characters.  

I recently saw an experienced player pass out.  It can be difficult.

However, like all annoying things, our characters do get better.

You might die if you can't ride your kank and you're depending on it to get away from a Gith.  You might die if you pass out in the rinth with your obsidian studded underpants on....

The game is about dying and getting better with skills and dying anyway.

Eh.

Poor skills sucks - especially ride and contact, but so it goes.

[Armaddict]

I'm -really- getting sick of people asking for change for a reason, and when it's argued against, the new argument of 'it's going to scare away new players' comes up.

Seriously.  Cope.  Hundreds have done it before you without complaining about it.

[Tlaloc]

When I first started playing, there were no stun points (they weren't introduced untill a years later). Instead, the way ate movement points, and hit points. You could, literally, Way yourself to death.

I'm content with it how it is, with a few very minor changes.

[bloodfromstone]

I still firmly believe that it's damaging to a new players experience. The amount of time that can be put into accomplishing nothing because your character sucks at the Way and everyone else uses it like it's going out of style is frustrating and not particularly fun. It's also one of the first things that players who come in looking to roleplay (rather than a gith or scrab, for those coming in to kill shit) experience.

However, it seems moot at this point, so I'll just have to agree to disagree.

[moab]

Bloodfromstone>

It sounds, to me, that you are expressing the feelings of an experienced player with a character new to the way.

I've never heard a newb complain that the way sucks for them and they feel left behind because everyone else is "using it like its going out of style."

Here is my reasoning:

1. Newbs are generally blissfully unaware of what is going on behind the scenes.

2. Newbs have no idea how good they can get with the way so bad seems average.

3. Newbs have a lot more to learn about the game than the way and will likely die first to scrab, gortok or guard.

I would go so far to say that is sounds like you, personally, are frustrated with your new character's suckiness with the way and that positioning yourself as a defender of the newbs is a little dishonest.  

Not meaning offense here. Just my thoughts.

[bloodfromstone]

I'm afraid you're mistaken, in that case. I'm currently playing a character who has been practiced and capable at the Way for some time. I'm a bit surprised to be accused of that, since this has been one of my personal pet peeves that I've brought up several times in the past, and not in relation to me creating new characters. It's just a tad presumptious to say that I'm positioning myself as a defender of newbies to try to pull a point.

Newbies trying to get into the RP atmosphere do get an idea of how other people use the Way and rather quickly, in looking for a job, trying to make contacts, meet friends, whatever. My first real character was an Atrium aide, and I learned pretty damn quick that all of the Hosts, Lords, and Ladies of the world have no trouble barraging someone with an array of messages, whereas a newbie who has never punched in the contact syntax before is lucky to make a connection without having to rest their stun back to full more than once. They are also not blissfully unaware of the fact that they are told to find someone's mind, only to pass out in the attempt, and have to wait a pretty good amount of time waiting to awaken.

As for point three, I addressed that in my previous post. Newbies who step into the game understanding a full roleplaying enviroment (the ones who create a bard or merchant type, because they're excited that you can do that on Arm) encounter this problem first, not all newbies of every kind.

[Yokunama]

I second Halaster's opinion on all counts.

~shrugs~
I do not mind having to work at 'contact', in order to make it a useful skill.

[Hymwen]

To me, there's two parts to the problem. The first is the difficulty of using the Way on a new character. I just started a new character today, and since this is a popular topic right now, I decided to do a little test. Doing 'contact man' until it succeeded, it took me first 11 attempts, then 8, then 10, 5, and last 10 again, to even establish contact. At approximately 25 stun per attempt while resting, or 40 while standing, you can probably imagine how long it would take for a new player to deliver a message. Sure, it'll get better, gradually and slowly. But it will suck major and be utterly unreliable as a means of communication for quite a while. I know that it'll get better, but does the new player who just passed out for the second time trying to contact his employer know? If your first experience in a game is to have that happening to you when doing exactly what the help file and your employer tells you to, are you getting a good first impression? Like I said earlier, in my opinion, agree or disagree if you will but I firmly believe that I have a point: for a skill that you are encouraged and often required to use, it is way way too hard for a new character to do.

Which brings me to my next problem: people not considering the above when dealing with a new player. "Find my mind by dawn, recruit" doesn't help the new player much when it can easily take him 10-15 RL minutes to establish contact. If you ask a new player to reach your mind, especially if you tell them that it's important, then please please please remember that it will cost a new character, on average, something like 200 stun to reach you, and 20-30ish stun per message they want to send. Ironically, some of the (IMO) easiest and most newbie-friendly roles, i.e aides and merchants, are the ones who require you to use this skill the most. I can count on two hands the amount of times that I, during my first month, had people get impatient, grumpy or actually angry at me because I couldn't reach their mind in what they considered to be appropriate time, when in truth, I was lying on my back in The Generic Tavern's sleeping room frantically wringing my brain to reach them, risking passing out and having all manners of undesirable things happen to me.

My suggestion? You can increase the cost if you want, to 50 stun per message for all I care. I don't think the Way should be your IC cellphone. But give new players a chance to reply to the voices in their head and, if nothing else, tell their employer/teacher/angry templar that they suck at the Way and request a meeting in the flesh. Make contact an auto-success skill, or at least a much better chance than it is now. The first many times I tried to contact someone, I got the idea that the skill was broken or that I didn't have it. I was extremely annoyed at the chore of finding people's mind because I knew that it meant ten minutes of suffering and risking my health and possessions.

[Morfeus]

I am honestly against more changes with Way IG. I know it could be hard for a new characters, but I like it as it is. But if this is that huge trouble for new -players- perhaps more information might be included in some documentation used by new players most (QuickStart, FAQ...)? I took just a very brief glance, but I didn't find much about this, other than simple explanation what the Way is.

[Maybe42or54]

They are going to pass out if they can't reach the person's mind.

Perhaps a new check for first and second Pcs?

You are on your first pc, at 9 stun.
You try to "contact boss man"
Ginka checks your stun, checks how many characters you have had, then says "You will faint if you continue to contact. Enter the command again if you want to proceed."

[Morgenes]

I've put in a change that will give a bonus to contact the person who is in contact with your mind.  So if you contact back while your boss is still in contact with you, you'll have a greater chance of success.  If your boss has moved on to contact another of his flunkeys, you'll be at where you were.

[Seeker]

Elegant and logical solution.  Thanks... um.... yet again.

[bloodfromstone]

I think that is a fair and reasonable update. Thanks.

[valakas]

It is fine right now. I have "played" my charactor for less then a full day and my contact works almost to a 1 to 1. At the worst its like 1 to 4 maybe 1-5.

First number being times worked second being times tryed.

[Maybe42or54]

And remember this, humans are naturally better than other races at those things.

[Kalden]

Seemed like it worse than usual with my last human. I lived 2 days, working it often, and never got up to a 2:1 failure:sucess ratio, much less 1:1.

[LauraMars]

Psionics require mental effort.  Those with less brainpower may find their aptitude for the Way is not as great as those with more.