HP and Health

[mansa]

Do you people prefer Harshlands/SoI's form of displaying your health, or do you like Armageddon's form, or do you like something different?

Armageddon displays health in number form.  So, you can be at 62 health out of 100.

Whereas SoI displays it as a bar and stars, and you're not quite exactly sure what your health is.

[mattrious]

I'm all about the numbers.

- Matt.

[UnderSeven]

What harshlands and soi have works for them, what we have works for us.  I think if Armageddon changes, that's fine, but the last thing I think we want is more soi/harshland carbon copy games, just for the sake of it.

[LauraMars]

Numbers.  WTF is this stars and bars thing, super mario brothers?  Some kind of candy store?

[SpyGuy]

I prefer the SoI combat system, with wounds that need bandaging/time to heal, can become infected, etc. etc.  In that case I'd be all for moving to an SoI health system that was vaguer.  Though I'm not a huge fan of it, and numbers would still be suitable.

But since Arm's combat has a more, for lack of a better word, "arcade" feel to it currently I think keeping the hardcoded numbers in place is appropriate.

[UnderSeven]

Dude, I'm telling you people, apples and oranges.  You're trying to compare very different entities.

[Maybe42or54]

Stars and bars seems childish to me. Besides, I like numbers.

[Aldiel]

I've always thought it would be cool to have hp, stamina, and stun deplayed as words like: Poor condition, good, fully rested, or whatnot.  These conditions would reflect what you see when you assess someone.  However, this might just clog up the promot.  It's something I'd have to think about more.  You'd have to find just the right words too, so that it can both be short and clear.

Like someone's promot might look like:

H: Poor Condition, S: Completely Rested, S: Barely Conscious

The Ss here stand for stamina and stun.

I also find it stange how you can see the direct effects of your constitution, but not your wis, strength, or agil.  I think it shoud all be ambiguous.  I'm not a big fan of the stars and bars though.

[mansa]

I like numbers too.

But I was debating with a friend, and he said that it should be a 'relative' state.  I think he was in the mood for _WORDS_ to describe how your doing instead of numbers, which seems a bit better.  I thought I'd bring it up to the general board.

I like kiwi fruit.

[Moofassa]

Numbers... I like to know exactly how much Hp my character has, cuz im a twink...


I'd be like : Poor condition... WTF WTF WTF... Maybe im at the upper range.. 20.. or maybe im at the lower range of 9 WTF... I wonder if I can take another hit!?!?



Numbers.

[jmordetsky_nologin]

I like bars. I don't want to know that my human has 30% less hp then my half giant. If everyone simply had a bar of the same length that represented the % of health they were at it would be more realistic.

I think we could get rid of the number and the bar and just have Fine, Midly Hurt, Very Hurt, Wounded, Dying, Completely Fucked as indicators.

[Aldiel]

Numbers... I like to know exactly how much Hp my character has, cuz im a twink...


I'd be like : Poor condition... WTF WTF WTF... Maybe im at the upper range.. 20.. or maybe im at the lower range of 9 WTF... I wonder if I can take another hit!?!?



Numbers.

The incrememnt could be as small as every ten hps.  And this game is about reality, not twinkage.

[Morfeus]

I like numbers. There could be difference between "Wounded" and "Wounded" and I like to see how big the difference is.

[Moofassa]

I like numbers. There could be difference between "Wounded" and "Wounded" and I like to see how big the difference is.

Precisely.

[Falconer]

To clarify, Shadows of Isildur's health system works in the following way:

-Players have a number of stars that represent a percentage of their health (rather than a number of hitpoints.)  
-There are types of wounds depending on the weapon-type used. (lacerations, bruises, piercings, scratches).
-No matter the type, each wound has is given a severity adjective (a severe laceration, a minor laceration.)
-Each wound requires a certain amount of time to heal.  Depending on the severity, physician/healer attention may be required.
-The wounds are entered into an algorithm that takes into consideration other injuries, the character's constitution and strength, and various skills, then determines the reduction of the total health percent.

If Armageddon adopted a similar system, there are several expansions I would suggest:

-Give each body part a number of hitpoints.  When these points drop to a given threshold, have various critical results - crippling a leg increases the time it takes to flee, crippling a hand or arm auto-disarms, a crippling neck or head wound would greatly reduce stun-points, etc.  Allow for permanent-crippling or severed limbs when the hitpoints for the body part reach 0.

-Increase (greatly) the amount of time it takes to heal through non-magical means.  In addition to the augmentation of greater 'realism' and less twinkery, this spurs all kinds of roleplaying scenes that follow a combat encounter: Vivaduans and physicians are given greater purpose, bar dwellers can nurse wounds alongside their ales, and the scars and disfigurement of characters will carry with them a story, in addition to a pseudo-object.

-Add this same wound code to armor, giving protective bonuses and penalities depending on the weapon type/material being used.  (eg: a chitin-banded shield might fare well against an obsidian sword but poorly against a bone club; a leather cuirass might be weak against piercing but perform strongly against bludgeoning attacks.)

Just some thoughts.

[diealot 2L2L]

Awesome..  Amazing.. and something I would -very- much enjoy.

But, perhaps, impossible to implement without a -major- motherfuckin' overhaul.

[Irulan]

I'm really a numbers kind of girl, myself....although, jmordesky's indicators might be kind of fun. ;-)

-Irulan

[X-D]

Sorry, I don't like the percentage bar. Mostly because of how inaccurate it is to gauge, and IMO thereby decreasing realism. But also, for me its slower to check.

HP <********>

Lets see, thats um, 8 stars...hhhmm, alright, get into combat, trying to emote, watch stats, use skills, and now I have to count stars. Nah, simpler to just see the number.

[Bogre]

I'm a fan of the numbers.

[Tuannon]

I want a sound macro that yells "Run Away!" in a Monty Python fashion whenever my hp drop to 20%.

[Hymwen]

I liked SoI's a little better, but I don't think Arm's is poor enough that it should be changed.

[Nao]

I like numberas a bit better - just my personal preference though. But SOI's wound system is kind of cool, exspecially that you can tell whether that body out there got half-eaten by wargs or if someone killed them with a weapon... Nifty but it's not like we absolutely need it.

[JRB]

How about a toggle option to set it on which ever the player prefers?

[Lael]

I like numbers, they're more accurate. Plus when you survive something with 1hp, it's more exciting than with *.

I'd like to see different health messages according to what caused the damage.

I.e. Poison - "The guy with lame hair is here, looking very sick and pale"
Slashing weapons, "The guy with lame hair is here, bleeding from many
long cuts"
Bludgeoning, "yadda yadda is here bleeding from many wounds, covered
in purple bruises"

etc, etc.

Just so that when you're actually down at 20hp from poison, people aren't coming up to you and trying to bandage your wounds, or something like that. (Not that you couldn't rp the bandage skill differently - maybe it should just be called healing?)

Anyways, just my thoughts.

[jhunter]

I can't stand the "gauge" thing that SOI and Harshlands do. I've got to see the numbers. It's one of the things that I disliked alot about those two games and one of the reasons, as far as mechanics, that I like Arm better.


Edit: Someone was saying something about numbers being unrealistic. And a "gauge" system is more realistic? We all walk around with a gauge that tells us our current health and such? Bullshit. As far as realism goes a "gauge" system is no more realistic than numbers.

[FightClub]

A few thoughts.
First off, no I don't agree to using Harshlands or Soi's system.
SOI's of the two is more appealing so you can better guage things, but actual numbers, by far give you a more accurate reading of your characters health.  I mean for sparring sake, we know exactly the number we hit when we go to a certain level.  On soi  it's iffy.  Harshlands even more.

On Harshlands, you have severe then mortal, which is represented by two stars on SOI, and one word on Harshlands.  as you can see this already limits how much you know about your character's condition (harshlands)

Instead of two stars, you have one word, and all that's seperating you from mortal is anyones guess.  Soi does a better job of that incorporating the star system, but I still don't think it has a place in Armageddon.

I mean we're all about numbers here, and we more accurately guage our characters by these numbers.

edit:  Oh and when harshlands started they used the number system, then switched to the words, players initially hated it.  Then got use to it cause there was no going back!

[Hymwen]

Well, like I said, I like SoI's better but I don't think Arm's is so bad that it has to be changed. But think about it, what seems more realistic to you: "I have about a third of my strength left, maybe I should stop." or "I have nineteen health points left, my opponent usually hits for seven, so I can take two more hits before I should flee." - not saying everyone thinks that way, but I know I'm guilty of having done it a couple of times before I caught myself in it. There's nothing wrong with numbers, but it will - for some people at least - make them think in maths instead of realism. Should your character know exactly how much he can take compared to how much damage you notice your opponent doing? I personally think that having a 5-star gauge (for example) would make fighting more realistic and stop some people from number-crunching and fighting with maths instead of roleplay. Even if they don't mean to use it that way, and don't realize. I know that happened to me a few of times.

(Edited to add some more)

Also, I like the wounds system. And what I think would be interesting, although it may or may not get in the way of playability: injuries that affect how you perform, for skills, travel, fighting and such. As it is now, you can get beaten to within an inch of death, hanging by a thread, so on so forth - and rest for 10 minutes without any side-effects. Some choose to roleplay being hurt for a while afterwards, of course, but you can't roleplay having a hard time crafting or fighting because your arm is in a sling and you have a stiff leg. Also, you have to actively emote it to everyone who sees you, otherwise they won't know because it doesn't show anywhere.

Something like:

If you go below 50% health: -20% to fighting and crafting skills for 3 mud-days

Below 20% health: -50% to fighting and crafting skills for 5 mud-days

Recover from mortally wounded: -50% for a mud-week.

Something along those lines, without adding too much realism. Waking up from a coma caused by fifteen slashing wounds would realistically cause you to be disabled for several weeks, but it would cripple fighting characters too much playability-wise. Maybe the above figures would too, it could be less harsh, but they're just examples. It would also make the physician guild/role more useful and popular, if they could be allowed to lessen these penalties and such. Don't know if it would make the game too unplayable for warriors and other combat folks, but I think it would be interesting to test out at least. I personally don't like it that you can recover from serious injuries with a few minutes of rest, and have no signs of it other than bloody clothes and whatever you wish to roleplay. Which is rather limited, to say the least.

[bloodfromstone]

I, personally, like the word based system. Condition: Prime/good/gashes/severe/etc. It is a lot less exact, so it removes some of the direct feel of the code, to me. But, then again, I really have no problem with numbers, either.

[FightClub]

That would call for redoing the entire coded fighting.

To clarify, Shadows of Isildur's health system works in the following way:

-Players have a number of stars that represent a percentage of their health (rather than a number of hitpoints.)  
-There are types of wounds depending on the weapon-type used. (lacerations, bruises, piercings, scratches).
-No matter the type, each wound has is given a severity adjective (a severe laceration, a minor laceration.)
-Each wound requires a certain amount of time to heal.  Depending on the severity, physician/healer attention may be required.
-The wounds are entered into an algorithm that takes into consideration other injuries, the character's constitution and strength, and various skills, then determines the reduction of the total health percent.

If Armageddon adopted a similar system, there are several expansions I would suggest:

-Give each body part a number of hitpoints.  When these points drop to a given threshold, have various critical results - crippling a leg increases the time it takes to flee, crippling a hand or arm auto-disarms, a crippling neck or head wound would greatly reduce stun-points, etc.  Allow for permanent-crippling or severed limbs when the hitpoints for the body part reach 0.

-Increase (greatly) the amount of time it takes to heal through non-magical means.  In addition to the augmentation of greater 'realism' and less twinkery, this spurs all kinds of roleplaying scenes that follow a combat encounter: Vivaduans and physicians are given greater purpose, bar dwellers can nurse wounds alongside their ales, and the scars and disfigurement of characters will carry with them a story, in addition to a pseudo-object.

-Add this same wound code to armor, giving protective bonuses and penalities depending on the weapon type/material being used.  (eg: a chitin-banded shield might fare well against an obsidian sword but poorly against a bone club; a leather cuirass might be weak against piercing but perform strongly against bludgeoning attacks.)

Just some thoughts.

Arm is fantasy, I like that, if I wanted to simulate real time wounds, and crippling injury, I'd go outside, and stab myself a few times, or use a club to mortally would myself with a severe blugeon to the head.  Nope not even for a dollar, fantasy all the way.

[LoD]

Health indicators, be they represented by points or words, are just symbols.

The arguement isn't really whether it should be points or words or bars, but how accurate the symbols should be with relation to the health of your character.  I have no problem with the current system (health points) nor with the player having their total/current health represented numerically.

I cannot see a strict system of code being implemented for combat wounds or injuries unless the entire code was changed to accomodate for the many different factors presented in the game.  I am not familiar with SoI/Harshlands wound code, but does it also apply to whether the damage is a result of falling, poison, physical (kick/bash), ranged (arrow/knife)?  Does it differentiate between live and training weapon damage, or does it treat them both the same?  Does it supply wounds for a wide variety of potential magickal afflictions and/or direct damage like Armageddon would have?

I would guess that it doesn't, which leaves us with a few choices:

1. Completely redefine how ArmageddonMUD interprets damage, which would involve an extremely complex system of values, variables and "if this, then at" scenarios to offer the realism these changes normally strive to achieve.

2. Implement a system that bases wounds/injuries on total damage, regardless of the source or situation. (Losing 50 health from a krathi flamestrike, an archer's bow and your sparring buddy would all be treated the same)

3. Leave the system open to the player's nterpretation and deal with the fact that some people may not always choose to RP appropriately.

Each has their own advantages and disadvantages, but in the end I think that a game with as much diversity as Armageddon delivers a more enjoyable and playable environment by allowing the players a certain degree of freedom.  Whether that freedom is abused is another topic, but I am against making arbitrary changes based on what other genre games choose to do in their environment.

-LoD

[jhunter]

3. Leave the system open to the player's nterpretation and deal with the fact that some people may not always choose to RP appropriately

[FightClub]

Health indicators, be they represented by points or words, are just symbols.

The arguement isn't really whether it should be points or words or bars, but how accurate the symbols should be with relation to the health of your character.  I have no problem with the current system (health points) nor with the player having their total/current health represented numerically.

I cannot see a strict system of code being implemented for combat wounds or injuries unless the entire code was changed to accomodate for the many different factors presented in the game.  I am not familiar with SoI/Harshlands wound code, but does it also apply to whether the damage is a result of falling, poison, physical (kick/bash), ranged (arrow/knife)?  Does it differentiate between live and training weapon damage, or does it treat them both the same?  Does it supply wounds for a wide variety of potential magickal afflictions and/or direct damage like Armageddon would have?

I would guess that it doesn't, which leaves us with a few choices:

1. Completely redefine how ArmageddonMUD interprets damage, which would involve an extremely complex system of values, variables and "if this, then at" scenarios to offer the realism these changes normally strive to achieve.

2. Implement a system that bases wounds/injuries on total damage, regardless of the source or situation. (Losing 50 health from a krathi flamestrike, an archer's bow and your sparring buddy would all be treated the same)

3. Leave the system open to the player's nterpretation and deal with the fact that some people may not always choose to RP appropriately.

Each has their own advantages and disadvantages, but in the end I think that a game with as much diversity as Armageddon delivers a more enjoyable and playable environment by allowing the players a certain degree of freedom.  Whether that freedom is abused is another topic, but I am against making arbitrary changes based on what other genre games choose to do in their environment.

-LoD

Answer #1  Soi has different damage for pretty much anything.  When you fall you would receive foot and leg wounds only the range from like small (being little bruise, to severe (possible internal bleeding) depending on how small you are, what your agility is, and how much you carry.  Arrows do piercing damage, arrows also may lodge, and if they do they have to be ripped out of the person starting a fresh bleeding new wound... falls, bashes, training weapons do bruises, crushes, so on.

And now I'm going to work, I'll edit this when I get back