Shield Disarm skill for warriors.

[CaleKnight]

Simple enough idea:

I'd like to see a skill branching (at a high level) from disarm that allows warriors to either disarm a shield onto the ground or possibly give a serious penalty to the opponent's shield blocking abilities for a few pulses of combat.

The reason I suggest the second option is because I know folks are going to point out that many shields are strapped to the arm, making a "shield disarm" skill silly. So it could be something like this:

Code Select Expand

joe knocks bob's shield aside, throwing him off balance.

For a few pulses after that, then, Bob's ability to shield block would be cut or even eliminated.

[Desertman]

I dont like it. Shield users already get enough negatives on the offensive side of combat, dont start takeing away the one thing they have, defense. But, thats just my view on it. Actually disarming the shield would be impossible since its strapped to the arm, but if you can figure out a way to hit a shield hard enough with a weapon that isnt massive to knock the shield user off balance, I am all for it.

Which brings in another idea, I have always wanted to see really large weapons wielded by very large persons (giants and muls ect) have a chance to knock someone down when they are struck hard.

But if this did get put in I want to see a special skill branched from shield use to equalize the affects.

As it stands now, a sheild user takes a major negative to learning offense...In fact they learn half as fast because they throw one attack per round, instead of two. I just think this would be far too unbalanced.

[Many Faces]

I would LOVE to see this put in.



It's the best idea since sliced gith.


I don't believe that the shield should ever fully be disarmed, some shields just have hand grips but others have leather slip straps that clutch the arm, in addition to a hand grip.  Damn hard to disarm one of those without just literally disarming your opponent.

I think knocking the shield to the side and off balance would be a much more likely idea.  Most shield users are going to be 'braced backwards' so if a deft opponent gripped say, the lower edge of the shield and gave a good, solid yank and then released, it may just jar that stance.

I would also like to see some method of deliberately delivering blows to the shield in an attempt to harm it and break it, lowering the defensive value of the piece in hopes of exposing an opening in the defenses.

[CaleKnight]

This was totally supposed to be in the code section.

And someone with a really high shield use skill is virtually untouchable. It's a bit silly.

[Desertman]

Someone with very high dual wield is an offensive tank that can rule the world against multiple enemies at a time, which is also..."Silly" or unrealistic....Hence why its a fantasy setting....There are unrealistic or "Silly" aspects to the game that make it fantasy. Such as a dual wielder being able to tank against three other fighters at once and come out on top, a shield user being able to hold out for half a day against three foes until back up arrives or he finds an escape. I think its fine how it is.

[Desertman]

I would also like to see some method of deliberately delivering blows to the shield in an attempt to harm it and break it, lowering the defensive value of the piece in hopes of exposing an opening in the defenses

This...I really like this. Its like the Sunder skill in D&D. Would love to see that implemented with the chance to break your own weapon in attempting it.

[Marauder Moe]

Aren't most (ar at least a lot) of shields actually strapped on to the forearm?  If so, seems like it'd make disarming them with a weapon nearly impossible unless you are, say, a half-giant with a massive axe, in which case it'd be just as easy to take off the defender's entire arm.

Also, I think shield-fighting needs to be improved, not nerfed.

[Desertman]

Also, I think shield-fighting needs to be improved, not nerfed.

Without a doubt.

[Many Faces]

Aren't most (ar at least a lot) of shields actually strapped on to the forearm? If so, seems like it'd make disarming them with a weapon nearly impossible unless you are, say, a half-giant with a massive axe, in which case it'd be just as easy to take off the defender's entire arm.

No, actually, many RL shields are gripped instead of strapped.  Target shields, myrmidon shields, a few styles of kite shield are gripped.  Some of the smaller shields (bucklers) and the really high end ugly huge shields (tower and seige) have straps.

Additionally, most of the times, the strap isn't tight.  It's there for added support and maneuverability.  There's a strap usually on the forearm coupled with a grip knob or handle.  If the grip is lost, a sharp blow could actually force the shield to slide off, if not simple gravity.

/derail

[rishenko]

You let disarm branch to shield disarm and there's no way in hell a person could ever hope to hold their own, even briefly, against a disarm spamming PC.

[Desertman]

Well if a code could be established to allow for the game to determine which shields have straps and which ones dont and how tight they are strapped ect depending on how they are designed. Then I guess this could work against some shields.

[Desertman]

You let disarm branch to shield disarm and there's no way in hell a person could ever hope to hold their own, even briefly, against a disarm spamming PC.

Which is almost every warrior I have ever fought just about the time they start to loose....Seven disarms fly out instantly lol.

Note: Not saying all warriors do this, but I have encountered it several times even against long lived PCs that you would never expect something like that from.

[Sholdyn]

From what I know of actual sword and shield fighting, disarming, or even knocking a shield away for more than a second or so is just not feasible. Fighting someone who has a shield as about trying to get past the shield. Sword and shield fighting is actually a big mind game. It's about trying to psyche out your opponent into thinking you are going to strike one way and then strike another way entirely. I've seen two very experienced fighters circle each other and not throw a single swing for about five minutes. It's all about trying to get into their head.

With larger weapons, like mauls and axes, you can definitely bust someone's shield up with a good solid hit, but an experienced shield user would also know how to deflect the blow properly in order to minimize damage to his/her shield and self, usually leaving the other person open actually.

[Moofassa]

I think it's hilarious when people get angered or annoyed when people use their skills.

So a warrior wants to disarm 5 times in a row? So what? It's possible. Very possible.

[Intrepid]

I think a shield can be snapped back into place as quickly as someone
could disarm it, making the delay non-existent.  Attacking the shield
directly is a great idea though, imo.

[Desertman]

Agreed...but disarming someone seems like a very intricate maneuver to me. Not something you just do like any other old attack. So if you want to throw a disarm you wait for that exact moment when the timeing is right and you try to disarm.....I suppose if you wanted to attempt to knock the weapon out of someones hand repeatedly you could, but I think if you are going to do this you need to get a negative stacked against you for every time you attempt it since your opponent will, and obvisouly does (If you have to keep trying you are failing) see the attack comeing and will have plenty of oppertunity to counter.

If someone trys to hit me with a stick in the side of the head five times in a row, I dont just keep ducking repeatedly...I duck once, hope I can get away, duck again, try to get away, duck again....Decide to hit that mother fucker the next time he swings that stick because I know exactly what his next move is going to be, since he was stupid enough to try it twice before, and then a third time back to back.

Of course the argument to this would be that a person highly skilled in disarm would be able to attempt it repeatedly without any negative because they have the skill to do so...but then again...if they are highly skilled....it shouldnt have to be repeated five times to work properly...once will be enough, because you will have succsessfully disarmed them already.

[rishenko]

Absolutely possible.  Also possible that since disarming can be such an intricate maneuver, that if one were to fail that they would easily leave themselves open for a return attack, similar to bending over to pick up a downed blade.  Especially if that became their sole focus during combat, in other words, spamming disarm.

Personally, I have no problem with disarm, or even spamming disarm.  I do, however, have a problem with disarm being extended further to totally rape a person no matter what they might be holding or how they may be holding it.


*Edit:  Screw Desertman for posting while I was typing.*

[Bebop]

I think it's hilarious when people get angered or annoyed when people use their skills.

So a warrior wants to disarm 5 times in a row? So what? It's possible. Very possible.

I agree but at the same time why get mad some one has a shield?  A shield is for defense.  A person who uses their shield obviously chooses defense over offense.  Let them use it.

I think disarm is already a good enough skill.  There is a HUGE disadvantage when one is without a weapon and it's a warrior only skill and warriors are already adept at fighting, which helps them out more.

Disarming a shield?  It's freaking a shield.  There are many ways to disarm a weapon, slice someone on the hand, tangle up their weapons, parry it away forcefully.  But how are you going to disarm someone of their shield?  Someone has a shield for defense.  When you go to slice their hand, you hit their shield, when you go to tangle up their shield they just hold onto it or you hit their shield, and it would be pretty much impossible to parry away a shield.  If people could disarm a shield that would defeat the entire purpose of having one.

I have played alot of combat characters and I have beat people using a shield while I dual wield all of the time.  It does give them a HUGE advantage to defense, but they can still be beaten.  You just have to be better them, same as any other fight.

[Jakahri]

From what I know of actual sword and shield fighting, disarming, or even knocking a shield away for more than a second or so is just not feasible.

Just wanted to comment on this portion. It is extremely possible for an experienced sword fighter to 'hook' or 'thrust' a shield aside for a few precious moments, depending upon the angle and force of the blow.

With larger weapons, like mauls and axes, you can definitely bust someone's shield up with a good solid hit.

Exactly. The same principles can be applied to knocking that shield aside rather than simply destroying as well, imo.

[Desertman]

With larger weapons, like mauls and axes, you can definitely bust someone's shield up with a good solid hit.


Exactly. The same principles can be applied to knocking that shield aside rather than simply destroying as well, imo.

I dont think it would work the same way....the first example includes hacking the hell out of the shield with enough force to break it....If you try to apply the same principles to just knocking the shield aside...ie. Hacking the hell out of it....(only one principle when you hack the hell out of something after all lol)...it would still just damage the shield. imo

[Sholdyn]

Just wanted to comment on this portion. It is extremely possible for an experienced sword fighter to 'hook' or 'thrust' a shield aside for a few precious moments, depending upon the angle and force of the blow.

With larger weapons, like mauls and axes, you can definitely bust someone's shield up with a good solid hit.

Exactly. The same principles can be applied to knocking that shield aside rather than simply destroying as well, imo.

I agree that you could knock a shield aside, completely. But in the time that it takes you to pull your weapon back from that hit, the other person will invariably pull their shield back into place. In fact, it will take you more time to pull your weapon back, set up the next shot and then execute it than it will take for them to just move their arm in a little. No one sits there stunned when their shield gets knocked aside. In fact, if someone knocked my shield aside, I would know that their weapon is currently tied up and I would take the opportunity to strike myself.

Now, like you said, you could possibly hook their shield and hold it away from them. If you were fighting two handed, you would be able to strike with your other weapon. But then you have to keep in mind that you're one weapon is as tied up as their shield and you have to attack and defend with your other weapon. If you're right handed, that weapon will be in your off hand, while the other person still has their primary hand to attack and defend with.

So all and all, I think attempting to "disarm" their shield to any extent less than annihilating it is not as clear-cut and easy as one might think. In fact, I would venture to say that it puts you at a greater disadvantage than it does them.

[Morrolan]

Shield kick

I learned this fun maneuver when learning to fight with (and against) sword and shield.

When someone's carrying a tower shield, kite shield, or other long shield, kick the bottom-side of the shield sideways, torquing the shield around its axis.  Follow this attack with a slash to the legs.  This is a very possible maneuver, and could be branched off kick...with all the penalties associated with kick.  This attack opens the defender with a shield for just a second, but its usually long enough to get a few blows in.

The other shield-kick technique is to simply kick the shield hard enough to knock your opponent off-balance, but this is covered by "bash" with a different emote.  Yes, this can be hard, but so is "bash"ing someone who is good with a shield and ready for it (i.e. has a high bash themselves).

Morrolan

[Desertman]

I would like a shield kick, if it is feasable...But what if thier shield is round?

Code Select Expand

You cannot possibly do that, his shield is round!


Seems like this whole shield disarm/relocate skill would be too hard to code realistically due to the fact that there are many types of shields, all with different shapes, and all with different styles of holding them, to do it realistically you would have to code every shield to have its own resilence to being disarmbed based on if it was a handle style, strap style, round, tower, ect...so on and so forth.

[Many Faces]

I don't know what sort of a weird issue you have with round objects, man, but I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to kick a round shield.

And as decided in many threads 'kick' should not represent only a foot thrust.  You can elbow a shield aside as easily as you can kick it.

[Bogre]

I want to see a skill that would allow a highly trained warrior attempt to get around the shield for a round or too...in my opinion if we ever get the strike skill this can just be put in as 'strike shield'. Instead of doing damage like a regular strike (kick would) it would try and negate some of the defensive bonuses a shield user gets for a round or so.

So the striking fighter could 'strike shield', and then emote using footwork to position himself away from the shield for a strike, or even delivering a blow to put the shield out of position for a time.

Conversely, I'd like to see shield fighters with a sort of 'shield strike' command...which would be like a mini charge. Would hurt the offensive and defensive skills of the opponent for a minor time, but the opponent wouldn't be knocked to the ground. (And the shield striker wouldn't fall to the ground, merely get some negatives in the combat department.) This would eliminate a lot of combat ending by someone failing a charge and falling to the ground to get raped.

Also, I believe that sort of a skill would make shields more attractive for that benefit. Plus we'd have more vicious fighting with people ramming shields together..heh.

[Intrepid]

The highly developed skill for getting around a shield is your offense skill.
Every hit that gets past Shield Use represents your ability to hit your
opponent rather than his/her/its shield.

[Dakkon Black]

I think shield use is just fine. There are things you can do right now against shield users just fine. I see fine balance at the moment and a lot of intricate possibly obfuscating code to make anything realistic out of this skill.

[jhunter]

I don't think any change is necessary either. For the most part the combat system is pretty good.

[Desertman]

I don't know what sort of a weird issue you have with round objects, man, but I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to kick a round shield.

The wierd issue I had was in reference to the contents of the primary post that presented the Shield Kick idea....as stated below...again.

When someone's carrying a tower shield, kite shield, or other long shield, kick the bottom-side of the shield

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't really think we need this. What might be better than all of this are differently named skills that duplicate kick, like elbow, punch, etc. That way we could roleplay our styles of fighting better.

By the way, most larger shield do incorporate straps. Smaller shields do not, but then again, small shields like bucklers are also used as weapons, and I think would be better served by being coded as both a low-damage club weapon and given a boost to the shield skill. Bucklers are actually easy to use. Large shields were mainly as defense against archers and fire-throwers, not as any sort of melee protection.