A non-rogue, city-based class.

[Cale_Knight]

So I was thinking today about the Plight of the Newbie in context of guilds.

Now, most newbies I've seen do best starting out as city-dwellers. But of the five city-dwelling classes, three of them implicity force our newbies into illegal activities.

So what I'm looking for here are ideas for a new guild that would be purely city-based but without the shadiness.

I'm on my way out the door for the next twelve hours or so, so I won't be responding, but I expect a long and thoughtful discussion about the time I come back!

And yes, I know people are going to say merchant, but merchants can be difficult to play too because crafting is a tough nut to crack for folks who don't know how to make travel cakes.

[moab]

Yeah - but merchant / crafter combinations are really like five different classes right there.

It would be interesting to see a house aide class - a merchant without haggle and value maybe and getting something else instead.

[spawnloser]

Really, I think it a waste to play a merchant/crafter-subguild.

Perhaps it's my old sentiments of, "If I'll get it later, why get a crappy version of the skill now?"

Personally, merchant, no matter the subguild, is difficult to play as an independant...but as a city-based character that doesn't plan to get into combat, they're quite well enough off as they are.

Yes, crafting isn't the easiest thing to get the hang of, but they can slowly do so while pampering the noble they are aide too.

[Cuusardo]

There is an "aide" subclass already:  house servant.

[Larrath]

I would like to see a basic Commoner guild for non-particular classes and for newbies that want a taste of everything.

The guild could have basic fighting abilities (on par with a Pickpocket), low-capped Haggle and Value, a good forage skill, high flee, low hide/sneak, specific bonuses for obsidian mining, lumberjacking and salt gathering, maybe an armor repair skill, and an ability to gain Listen and possibly even scan, and maybe knifemaking.  Basically, a jack of all trades guild with no real focus, and perhaps the ability to pick two subguilds.
I think it could be very nice, and it would also help new players think that their ranger has to go out and explore.

[Cuusardo]

Larrath brings up a good point about rangers.  They don't have to be based outdoors.  They can very easily be city based characters who know more about the outdoors and hunting.  I personally had a ranger that ended up being a city based character, and I know that I am not the only one.  They have skills that are very useful within the walls.

[spawnloser]

So...not too far off from what Bards were in the original D&D Dark Sun that this game is based on?  (Minus the poisoning abilities of Dark Sun bards)

[Larrath]

So...not too far off from what Bards were in the original D&D Dark Sun that this game is based on?  (Minus the poisoning abilities of Dark Sun bards)

I know next to nothing about Dark Sun, and don't even really care to know that much.  I just think it would be nice to be able to make a nobody character that wouldn't have to be absolutely useless in combat or unrealistically powerful.  It would also give new players an easy place to start in, since the Commoner guild could be suitable for doing everything from Bynner/House Guard work to working as a crafter or something shadier.

[spawnloser]

AD&D bards were the Jack of all trades, master of none sorts of people.

[Ghost]

AD&D bards were the Jack of all trades, master of none sorts of people.

That sounds like a Burglar in Armageddon though.

[spawnloser]

You said it, I didn't.  

[Bluefae]

Interesting thread, guys.  Seems like it would be relatively easy to do, as far as the code goes, also.

Although I adore my current character, I likely would have picked this option had it been around when I first started playing.  For someone just coming into this rich and varied world, "Merchant" has connotations that don't necessarily hold up in game, but do tend to inform one's play, at least until that player has had a chance to find a more specific niche.  Speaking as someone whose character was literally wasting away before I found said spot in the "eco-system", playing a Merchant can be very difficult as a first character.

To my newbie eyes, the rest of the options I had at the start (three "shady-types", a warrior, a ranger, and an assasin, if I remember correctly) all looked too... hard core.  I thought to myself "My character's not really any of those - she's just someone who's trying to get by."

This would be a good, easily-understandable vector for new players to enter the game, and for veteran ones to play an "average Amos", backed by code.

[flurry]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing something along these lines, and I recall variations on this idea suggested on here in the past.

Yes, you can play rangers indoors, or rogues non-roguishly, etc.   It's quite possible to even flourish doing so.  Still, there's no denying the fact that each guild is best suited for a certain kind of lifestyle.   Also (as Bluefae points out), the names of those guilds have certain connotations, particularly to newer players.   Having some generic working-class guild would affirm that it represents another a possible role.  So I give the general idea a thumbs up, and I kind of like the suggestion of a jack-of-all-trades approach.

[Marauder Moe]

Burglar is an excellent hybrid combat-city class, especially if you take a crafting subguild.

Being a burglar or a pickpocket in no way forces a new player into illegal activities.  I do think it might be a good idea to have a highly newbie-visible paragraph somewhere detailing the difference between coded guild and in-game profession, though.

[Ritley]

Too be honest, I don't think the game need's another non city based character, because, when it comes down to it, there is no city, or wilderness based characters. A ranger can become a shady, indoorsy type, and a burglar could become a very good hunter. Their skill sets are compatible to it. We've only defined them as city based, and wilderness based, because of the guild's name. When in the end, they both have the skills to do a certain job, outdoors, or indoors.

However, it would be nice to have a jack of all trades character as Larrath said. The guild could also introduce a few new skills; Glasshacking and lumberjacking. Don't think these skills would be very hard to code either.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I like the idea of a commoner class or two. I feel like more classes don't nessessarily mean anything bad ... newbies love the idea of more classes, anyway. Until we can pick our own skills in Chargen, which will prolly never happen, I support a commoner class.

[Marauder Moe]

I gave this idea a little thought myself the other day.  I can't think of a reasonable group of "commoner" skills that aren't already contained in another guild/subguild combination.

[rishenko]

I would like to see a basic Commoner guild for non-particular classes and for newbies that want a taste of everything.

The guild could have basic fighting abilities (on par with a Pickpocket), low-capped Haggle and Value, a good forage skill, high flee, low hide/sneak, specific bonuses for obsidian mining, lumberjacking and salt gathering, maybe an armor repair skill, and an ability to gain Listen and possibly even scan, and maybe knifemaking.  Basically, a jack of all trades guild with no real focus, and perhaps the ability to pick two subguilds.
I think it could be very nice, and it would also help new players think that their ranger has to go out and explore.

I think another bonus for this class should be added mount packing abilities.  Allow them to pack one or two more items on a mount than the default.  Also, and though this would probably be a pain in the butt code wise, allow them a bonus in terms of how much weight could be placed on the mount.  This could be easily explained as a hauler of raw goods having a solid understanding of weight distribution and effective packing methods.

[Hymwen]

How about a Commoner guild that can pick and choose between a set amount of skills? Perhaps give them a broad variety of skills but without the option of mastering them or something like that. In a world like Zalanthas, I'd imagine that there's a lot of good-for-nothing-layabout type of people who never did much of the same thing through their lives, but know the basics of a lot of things.

Similar to ye olde ROM MUD's pick/drop system at character creation, actually. You get to choose from a list of non-specialist skills, so that you can adapt your skills to your character instead of adapting your character to your skills.

[Bogre]

I think we need to take some of the crafting skills away from the merchant class and make a whole new worker class that would start with some all around skills, and then a subguild could define what kind of crafter he/she'd be.

[jhunter]

I would love to see a jack-of-all-trades, can fit into any job type of guild made. Give it all sorts of different types of skills but with low caps so they'd be pretty mediocre at everything.
They'd never be the best but they'd be able to fit into any sort of job.

[Marauder Moe]

I think we need to take some of the crafting skills away from the merchant class and make a whole new worker class that would start with some all around skills, and then a subguild could define what kind of crafter he/she'd be.

What would you add to this new class that Merchant doesnt already have?  Why not just make a merchant with the appropriate crafting subguild and not use any other crafting skills?


I'm not sure why everyone here thinks that you can't make a "jack of all trades" character now.

[Larrath]

It's not really possible to make a character that could sneak around in alleys, make a living by bowhunting and lumberjacking with the additional crafting/repair jobs on the side.  Any character that wants truly good crafting skills pretty much has to be a Merchant, meaning that they won't be able to have good combat skills.  It's possible to make jacks of all trades right now, but the way to do it isn't obvious enough for a brand new player.
Also, with current guilds a PC can never really be a jack of all trades because after 80 days of playtime they, assuming that they use their skills regularly, will become extremely skilled in a single facet.  This guild is intended to be more balanced, keeping the combat balanced with the crafting and stealth instead of sacrificing one for the other.
Plus, the guild could have all sorts of unique bonuses and abilities such as the obsidian mining bonus.

I admit that this is not an urgently needed change, but simply having this guild to allow the new players to pick could be nice and helpful, and it would also help characters who have to pick the Merchant guild because none of the other guilds can support what they want, and as a result it would make less in-game Merchants the sitting ducks with no combat skills that we all know and love to prey on.

[My 2 sids]

I'm not sure changing the guilds would have a greater impact than other changes in the game.  As it stands now most of the guilds cover a wide range of character ideas... the problem isn't creating character ideas so much as being able to implement those ideas.

I think if the majority of play revolved around independent characters rather than clans, then we'd see far greater change.

[WarriorPoet]

Give me a ranger with a background-appropriate subguild and watch me pwn as a Jack of All Trades. Or a burglar, but to a lesser degree.

As a matter of fact, the one character I've had who would have qualified as dabbling in nearly -everything-, from espionage to extortion to murder to merchanting, was a ranger/linguist.

I've also made fortunes on subguild crafting and haggle with warriors. It's very possible to do whatever the hell you want with any character. Wits count for far more than coded skills, I've found.

I wouldn't mind the slicing of a few Subguilds and replacing them with others, but I like Arm's class setup as it stands.

-WP