Better living through gortoks

[jmordetsky]

I was thinking, after the reading the thieves thread...Maybe we should allow for the purchase of guard mounts at the stables? Gortoks and stuff.

Lots of benefits I can think of, a good deal of weaknesses.

Thoughts?

[Cale_Knight]

Eeeeeeenteresting. But are there any animals which have been reliably domesticated to the point where they could be commonly used that way?

[Larrath]

One word: 'Nakkis.

[Vesperas]

Arn't quirri supposed to be like, the awesome refined (but highly dangerous) pet?

It kind of rubs me the wrong way to think that Zalathas has got this far without figuring out how to control certain animals for their own devices.  Even giant rats could be taught to amuse.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I t kind of rubs me the wrong way to think that Zalathas has got this far without figuring out how to control certain animals for their own devices.  Even giant rats could be taught to amuse.

Ummm... Kanks? Erdlu, sunbacks, ox, inix, or anything else you figure you've seen someone riding around on..? Or if you want, specificly, fighting animals.. Muls? Specificly bred and raised for the express purpose of being servant to someone else. If someone honestly wanted to put the work into getting a couple gortok (or other dangerous animal) pup/cubs, one male and female, and actually working at domesticating/training them and the offspring, I could see it being done after maybe several years, but even so.. If someone wants a vicious animal guard, they could catch a wild one and train it, but never be sure it wouldn't turn on them. Trying to breed out the 'untameable' variable should be far harder, but if successful have greater reward?

[Angela Christine]

Yeah, the problem with a dangerous animal is that you can't be sure they won't try to eat you while you are sleeping.  A junkyard dog doesn't get to go in the bedroom, and all most of us have is bedrooms.

On the other hand, there are some dogs that would be nearly useless as guard dogs that make excellent watch dogs.  Almost anything in the terrier family, for example.  A watch animal doesn't have to be able to physically defend the property, in fact it doesn't even have to be running loose, a watch animal can work from a cage.  The sole function of a watch animal is to make a lot of noise at the appropriate times.  Not all the time, just appropriate times, like when someone approaches or enters the property.  They are basically an organic burglar alarm.

One story I read the people of a village often kept two kinds of dogs; one group were small, hyper-alert, yappy watch dogs, and one group of slower, larger, potentially dangerous guard/hunting dogs.  When there was trouble the hyper little dogs would raise a ruckus, which would rouse the local people and the larger dogs within a few minutes.  That way the insane, blood hungry animals were small and cute (and basically no threat to anything bigger than a rat) and the large, potentially dangerous animals were laid back and dependable.  An animal that is both very vigilent and physically dangerous can become a threat to yourself, your family, and invited guests, not just burglars.  That's why "junkyard dogs" are kept chained up or fenced in all the time.


Unfortunately, I don't think watch animals are practical code-wise, even if there may be appropriate animals in the world.  Their purpose is to make a lot of noise to alert nearby people that there is a problem, scaring off the intruder or at least making them hurry.  I can't see how this would work with vitual people.  


Angela Christine

[UnderSeven]

A while ago I suggested a locking system against thieves, like a board placed in front of a door.  The idea being IF the pc had quit out in the room, they could use this locking system which would only enable unlocking from the inside.   Heh, okay years ago.  I don't remember this idea getting shot down exactly so I assume it died in commitee.

The thing about people picking locks then raiding a place is the vnpc presence is not accurately depicted in many situations with lock pick able rooms.  Unfortunately how then do you depect it?

Are we to assume appartments only have pc and possibly npc occupants?  Or visitors?  Or browsers of property?  I think not.  In fact I wonder if se can even assume that there are only pc and npc thieves.  

One way would be to make an appartment semi legal.  Where if you fail a lock pick attempt, there is a chance you'll get crim flagged for someone noticing, for all I know it might already work this way (I havn't played a burg in a long time).  This would up the risk I think significantly.  Another thing, it might be nice if repeated failures of picking a lock actually resulted in further attempts to be impossible for a while.  

It strikes me the problem with burgs is there is less there to police them than any other class power gaming.  You don't have to practice it on pcs, or potientally annoyed npcs (I take it back, sneak hide is another prime example).

I think ultimately upping the danger of repeatedly trying to get into a house might work, another option might be roaming npcs in the appartment complexes, which would mean for a burg to be successful they might have to post friends as look outs and see if the coast is clear before trying and so on.  

Just some ideas.

[spawnloser]

UnderSeven raises a couple good poitns on this, I think...

There should be a chance for someone picking a lock in an apartment building to get crim-flagged (and in my experience, this has never happened).

There should also be wandering NPCs to make things more difficult for the Burglar...reinforcing the idea that people could walk through those hallways at ANY time, even though it rarely happens under the current system.

[flurry]

This is an interesting idea, I think.

I don't think gortoks would be realistic, but maybe some other kind of animals?

Hawks came to mind for me.  People carry around these hunting hawks, and it seems like they could drive off burglars.  I don't know if (realistically) they are territorial enough to do that job well, though.

[UnderSeven]

Animals to ward off intruders I don't really think is terribly feasible.

Unless the animal attacked the intruder, there isn't a lot it could do except maybe make noise, which would be cool until burg. kills animal.  End of story.  Either way, the burg would probably just kill the animal.  As it stands unless they were really strong pets, burgs would just come to expect them and be ready to kill them.  

As it stands now, most appartments come with the assumption you will get robbed, not the possibility, the certainty.  I think the problem lies in that certainy more than anywhere else.  Until breaking into houses was made harder to begin with, I don't think any internal security is really a great idea.

[Lazloth]

I agree with the consensus - I think "pets" in general have a limited place on Zalanthas, and I'd associate them more with Kadian-bought opulence and flippant spending than with the mean streets of pit bulls, blood, gambling and related functionality.   Not to say that non-humanoid guards can't be possible:  I just don't picture a generic homeowner unloading a box of poisonous scorpions along his kitchen floor to prevent a burglar from coming in through the window.

Personally, I'd suggest that picks became much more fragile and by default that may curtail some of the activity.  (Think I've said that before though.)

[WarriorPoet]

I don't really like the idea of NPC pets standing guard. Apartments have... well, guards for that.

I would much rather see the guy who sits on his ass at the door all day take a stick to Joe Burglar. Apartments are expensive, and it's his job to discourage robbers. The bastard.

-WP

[Cegar]

Couldn't Nenyuk just send one or two guards through the complex every hour or two in the more spendy places (I.E. anything but the tenement housing complexes)? They already have guards in the lobby of most buildings, why not have them patrol every once in a while? Hell, they could even up the rent for that.

[Maybe42or54]

Agreed. It is already pretty high though.

[Synthesis]

I'm willing to bet one good assassin-classed character in each of the appropriate militias, played by someone with plenty of time to idle, would just about put a stop to lockpick spamming.

I know, back in the day when I had a militia assassin, occasionally I'd just hide outside frequently lockpicked doors and wait...and wait...and wait some more...and before long, Slim Shady comes along and goes directly to jail, not passing go, not collecting 200 'sid.

Sure, it's not a perfect solution.  But if your last character got burgled into poverty, it sure is a good way to get some payback, and it's a lot more interesting than simply making every apartment an impenetrable fortress.

It's not like burglars and pickpockets are invincible, people.  Just thank Whira that you have the trusty Nenyuks to look after your excess 'sid.  Thank the Imms for not coding a 'cutpurse' skill that allows thieves to get into closed containers.  Thank them for a crim-code system that virtually ensures only experienced players of pickpockets and burglars even get out of their newbie gear before ending up dead.

The cards are stacked against thieves just about everywhere you look, so take a deep breath, a step back, and try to thank your lucky stars that they have it so bad, because you could be getting it much worse.  And if you're getting cleaned out so badly, move out.  Why would you keep paying rent for a place that was no more secure than a streetcorner in the 'rinth?  If people stop paying, maybe Nenyuk will eventually get around to increasing that security.  For now, though, it seems people are willing to pay just to have an empty space to sit alone in (or mudsex in).

Disclaimer:  I agree that it's a bit absurd, from a realist's perspective, for burglars to be able to loot places clean.  However, given other considerations that are equally unrealistic (e.g. most people carry most of their wealth on their back or keep it in the bank at all times, the only way into and out of buildings is through doors, clan members are identified by NPC guards automagickally, sdescs and mdescs can be remembered perfectly indefinitely), it comes down to a balance of playability concerns.  Things aren't so bad right now, and if you put any more limitations on the burglar class, there really wouldn't be much of a point in keeping the class around at all.

[Lazloth]

Things aren't so bad right now, and if you put any more limitations on the burglar class, there really wouldn't be much of a point in keeping the class around at all.

To chime in, there really isn't a reason to keep the class around (imo) - mainly I don't agree with segregating the two rogue guilds.

I'm willing to bet one good assassin-classed character in each of the appropriate militias, played by someone with plenty of time to idle, would just about put a stop to lockpick spamming.

Is this ubermensch going to stay on during offpeak cycles?  If you're tring to isolate the windows when the furniture walks away, I've found that it seems to occur when there are, say, 1-3 other players in the game.

Sure, it's not a perfect solution.  But if your last character got burgled into poverty, it sure is a good way to get some payback, and it's a lot more interesting than simply making every apartment an impenetrable fortress.

If you subscribe to the theory that VNPCs deal with VNPCs, NPCs with NPCs, and PCs with PCs, I guess it's okay.  Personally I'd prefer the system be cleaned up.

[Synthesis]

Way to pick my weakest point and attack it.

Excellent debating tactic, I suppose, but hardly a sound refutation.

The militia assassin idea was mostly a tongue-in-cheek suggestion.  I'm perfectly aware of the limitations of PC-based solutions.

However, given the lack of a PC-based solution, it simply doesn't follow that the system should be "cleaned up."  In fact, this implies an acceptance of the theory you scoff at in your own post (i.e. the VNPC-VNPC, PC-PC interaction theory).  

Allow me to explain.  If you ascribe to the above theory, you accept that PCs deal with other PCs, and VNPCs deal with other VNPCs.  In the given situation, there is no feasible way for PCs to deal with other PCs to fix the situation.  Therefore, if you accept that the system is broken, the only way to fix the situation is to change the terms on which PCs deal with other PCs (i.e. the code).

However, this doesn't mean the theory itself is unsound.  I would hesitate to apply it universally, but I think it may have useful applications to situations where PCs simply -cannot- deal with VNPCs or NPCs.  Housing, essentially, is one of these situations.  (Yes, I'm aware there are inhabited NPC dwellings, but I think we can agree that the vast majority of these fail even a superficial burglary risk-reward analysis, thus we can exclude them from consideration.)  Now, given that  only PC housing is worth the bother, we have a situation where PC burglars are forced to burgle PC apartments.  (Indeed, if you ascribed to the NPC-PC interaction theory, and you held the same fundamental constraints as given above, you would have to believe that NPC burglars were using the same risk-reward analysis, and that ALL burglars:  VNPC, NPC, and PC alike are all burglarizing PC housing!)  I think most PC renters would be glad to accept that only a small subset of the burglar population is actively engaged in attempting to pilfer their goods.

Furthermore, I don't think you are privy to the sort of information that would be required to support the assertion that apartment burglaries occur most frequently during off-peak times.  In fact, during those times, it's also much more likely to get caught by a snooping Immortal.  (The only time I've ever been caught twinking out hardcore {to my knowledge} was at 3:30 a.m. CST, by Nessalin, when I had just finished slaughtering several guards inside the Oash estate in order to escape after getting caught inside by a couple of PCs hours earlier.)  In fact, if we assume that at least 1 Imm is on most of the time, it becomes obvious that as the population of logged-in PCs decreases, the chance that any one PC will be caught burglary-twinking increases dramatically.  I'll counter with the simple observation that, since there are few people logged in with them, people playing at off-peak times tend to play characters who do not rely on interaction with other PCs at all.  Since burglary reaches the point of diminishing returns very quickly, PC burglars simply -must- pickpocket now and then to supplement their income, unless they're merely hoarding their wealth.  This requires other PCs, and given the above, I'm willing to guess that off-peak players don't often play burglars.  (Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility of a peak-playing burglar logging in during off-peak hours simply to spam-burgle everything and then log out, logging back in during peak hours and behaving normally.  However, the probability of being detected mid-twink by an Imm is probably higher during these off-peak times, so if the peak-playing burglar is doing this, he's simply jumping from the frying pan {being detected by a PC} into the fire {being detected by an Imm}.)

Finally, I too was going to bring up the class-distinction problem, but I think that's more the subject of another thread of posts, so I didn't.  Feel free to start another post suggesting that the two be merged.  I just might agree with you, there.

[FightClub]

(The only time I've ever been caught twinking out hardcore {to my knowledge} was at 3:30 a.m. CST, by Nessalin, when I had just finished slaughtering several guards inside the Oash estate in order to escape after getting caught inside by a couple of PCs hours earlier.)

*boggles* Now that is a story to kill the grandkids *high-five*

And I like the militia assassin idea, that'd be a nice kick in the ass, as far as people twinking it up in low hours, yeah it's right to think the spot lite is gonna be on you, with considerably less people, even if 1 imm is one, he's got a lot more chance to vew you than everyone else, than say 50 people or so are on.

[X-D]

Picks should have a set number of uses (hitpoints, life, whatever) The guality of the lock being picked should be a number that subtracks from this life.

4 grades of picks, low 25 life, medium 100 life, high 200, SUPREME PICK OF ROBBING YOU FUCKING BLIND!! 250 life, medium quality lock, 50 damage, medium low, 25, low quality 5, medium high 75, high 150, SUPREME UBER LOCK OF CHASTITY AND ALL THAT IS GOOD!! 250

That would be sweet, specialy since the thief would really have to think more before risking his pick. And low end picks simply will not work on high end locks.

Hhhmmm, I hit this place last week, scored about 300 sid in goods...lets see, pick cost 100, might break...wonder if it will be worth it to hit this place again so soon.

AND would really cut down on twinking lockpick skill, cause a fail will still cost points, though, only say half as many.

Also, make the prices fit, low quality picks, hell, I don't care if you can craft them from 5 coin bits of bone, medium would have a reasonable price, high would be rather expensive and uber pick would cost at least a large.

[spawnloser]

I like the idea, X-D...but I'd rather there be a chance to cause damage rather than guaranteed damage...and for the numbers to be played with a bit.  I don't like that under your idea, as written, that we could go blow a large on a pick and then destroy it when unlocking the first lock you come across with it.

[X-D]

Of course, numbers very rough, hell, just came up with the idea as I typed.

[spawnloser]

Oh, understood...which is why I said I wanted them to be played with and why.  I'm not sure what the right numbers would be, but that'd be up to the staff to decide.

[moab]

If you put a board on  latch over a door to keep out a thief, the thief will drill through the door (assuming wood) and use a lever to lift the board over and off the latch.

If you do <some other nifty thing> the thief may well remove the hinges or molding and finally, maybe even remove bricks surrounding the door if he wants to get in bad enough.

[Maybe42or54]

I don't like this idea, because it would make the byn a little more obsolete, and I love the byn.

[jmordetsky]

Picks should have a set number of uses (hitpoints, life, whatever) The guality of the lock being picked should be a number that subtracks from this life.

4 grades of picks, low 25 life, medium 100 life, high 200, SUPREME PICK OF ROBBING YOU FUCKING BLIND!! 250 life, medium quality lock, 50 damage, medium low, 25, low quality 5, medium high 75, high 150, SUPREME UBER LOCK OF CHASTITY AND ALL THAT IS GOOD!! 250

That would be sweet, specialy since the thief would really have to think more before risking his pick. And low end picks simply will not work on high end locks.

Hhhmmm, I hit this place last week, scored about 300 sid in goods...lets see, pick cost 100, might break...wonder if it will be worth it to hit this place again so soon.

AND would really cut down on twinking lockpick skill, cause a fail will still cost points, though, only say half as many.

Also, make the prices fit, low quality picks, hell, I don't care if you can craft them from 5 coin bits of bone, medium would have a reasonable price, high would be rather expensive and uber pick would cost at least a large.

Sweet.