Smother

[Fragmented]

I would like to see subduers able to smother the people they subdue. Attempting to flee would of course keep the smothering from taking place, but if you wear yourself completely out, and don't manage to escape the hold, you're dead meat without having to be hacked and stabbed to pieces as your captor closes off your airway through any of a variety of rp'd ways.  :twisted:

[spawnloser]

Subdue is already evil enough, I think.

I mean, if you have just one friend when you subdue a third person?  You'd assume and probably be right that the friend can hit the guy you're subduing pretty easily...either getting a bonus or the other guy getting a penalty or something.

You can throw people into other rooms.  I'll just let you think about that.

[Rindan]

I think that is actually a pretty solid idea.  I would have smother work such that first it drains movement points, then stun points, then finally HP.  If a big old mul or half-giant grabs you and starts trying to strangle you, you SHOULD be worried.  As a bonus, it could give people a way to knock someone out without having to kludge them to death with a weapon.  I like it.

[Cegar]

I'de rather see it implemented for people who are sleeping/unconcious. Sleeping would have a resistance check (based on scan skills, etc) and you would possible be able to "flee" out of it. This would bring in garrot wires and pillows. Finally something to make for those pillow crafters.

[Morgenes]

I think that is actually a pretty solid idea.  I would have smother work such that first it drains movement points, then stun points, then finally HP.  If a big old mul or half-giant grabs you and starts trying to strangle you, you SHOULD be worried.  As a bonus, it could give people a way to knock someone out without having to kludge them to death with a weapon.  I like it.

I could see a strangle-hold type command that could be done if you have someone subdued.  It would likely do stun damage first (knocking them out), then potentially hit point damage.

*NOTE* My agreeing with an idea does not necessarily mean it will be implemented, just that I think it's a neat idea.

[williamson]

Here is an old idea of mine that is similar to smother:


Skill: Choke

This skilled is used by warriors who have subdued their victims. A successful choke will place the subdued victim into a choking headlock. As the choke is maintained, the victim will eventually lose conciousness if the attacker has the stamina to maintain the hold. Once placed in the choke, the victim will lose stun points and the attacker maintaining the choke will lose stamina. If the victim loses all of her/his stun points, she/he falls unconcious. If the attacker loses all of her/his stamina, the attacker is forced to release the victim.

Example:

subdue templar
>You subdue the balding, obese templar.

choke templar
>You position yourself behind the balding, obese templar and place him in a headlock.

Failing the choke:
>You try to position yourself behind the balding, obese templar, but he escapes your grip.

After success each tick:

You tighten your grip on the balding, obese templar's neck as he gasps for air.

Tick:

You tighten your grip on the balding, obese templar's neck as the color of his face begins to turns a shade of blue.

Tick:

You release the balding, obese templar as he collapses to the ground, unconcious.

Once in the choke hold, victims could type flee and try to break free just like a subdue.

-Williamson

[Armaddict]

Wow.

I wouldn't mind if this replaced 'kill' as the only option for a lone man who has someone subdued.

Sure, a friend can still maul you.  But it helps make the 'subdue/kill' problem subside a little (no more instant knockouts with only one attempt/chance to get away), and gives a little more 'feel' for how the unarmed fight is ending rather than just the instant pounds to the head with a fist that should probably be holding them somewhere.

[Cenghiz]

Yes, forcing 'release' before hitting someone you subdue and choking being introduced instead would be a neat addition.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Yes, forcing 'release' before hitting someone you subdue and choking being introduced instead would be a neat addition.

Heh, alright.  But while we're at it I'd like to see a "neck-snap" command thrown in along with the package.

[Malifaxis]

As someone who's played people who can literally grab other people by the neck and throw them a good sixty cords, I would greatly not like to see an auto release when you type kill.

I think a different choke command would be excellent ,but if you wanna grab someone and pop them one in the face or groin or whatever, or just throw them against a wall, you should be able to.

[mansa]

We could call it squeeze, and have it cause the person to lose movement points.

Because when nobody has movement points, they can't get away.


WOAH DEJA VU

[Armaddict]

As someone who's played people who can literally grab other people by the neck and throw them a good sixty cords, I would greatly not like to see an auto release when you type kill.

Racial differences?

I realize that the choke doesn't apply to all situations.  But at the same time, subdue could be made so that it's success followed by a kill command is not an almost certain case of a guy being a ninja who instantly manipulates your body in some way, whether hitting -exactly- where they needed to (while you're struggling), throwing you head first into a wall (if they catch themselves, it may be a broken arm but not a knockout/death), or what have you.

Sure, it -can- happen. But not with the amount of certainty that exists with the command as is.  That sort of certainty comes with a high degree of training, fitness, and situational effects (that come more often with that training). If your subdue is high enough skill, their inability to get away while you choke them will reflect that training.

But while we're at it I'd like to see a "neck-snap" command thrown in along with the package.

That's a little harder to do without some wrestling and real effort, unless you take them by surprise or something surprising happens that helps you out.  Generally, in a hand to hand scramble, it's a little harder to get into that position that you can do it from easily simply because they won't allow themselves to be that vulnerable.

With surprise, it would be akin to backstab.  They use the stealth to get into that position where they can do a neck-snap.  Neck snaps just don't happen because if you have a weapon, you'll generally use it, and neck-snap -isn't- supported by code for that.

Subdue is more of a direct wrestling match, I think.  Subdue would still be an instant grab, I think...but you'd be unable to use that to kill so instantly as well, since now your adversary -is- probably struggling and defending themself.

If you're good enough to pull off the ninja shit, sure...the code may make it last longer.  But it's a lot more accurate for subdue to be a longer killer to the non-pro people.

In the cases of those who can -naturally- do it better through sheer physical ability, such as muls and half-giants, they would of course have racial benefits.  These racial benefits are already coded in the game, though likely not through actual coding -for- the bonus, but rather through their race's actual superiority in an area, such as strength, modifying their success.  But if we talk about changes to the subdue in the first place, then these modifications to the code for these 'exceptions' would already likely be coming.

[Synthesis]

I think you're overestimating the effectiveness of the subdue;hit combo, Armaddict.

I've done it a few times here and there, and it seems to only have a significant damage modifier, not a location modifier.

So if your offense skill sucks, you might solidly hit your subdued target, but you're probably going to hit him on the leg or other location where it's not going to cause a knockout.

I've only seen instant knockouts in cases where 1) The attacker was already skilled or 2) The attacker was extremely strong and landed a body blow.  This makes sense...if you're a skilled fighter, you should be able to land a good head or neck shot; if you're weak and unskilled, you're probably not going to do anything; and if you're a man beast, you might get lucky.

But I agree that it's kind of a lame way to go about the whole situation.  A choke/grapple/whatever command would avoid the messiness.

My ideas:
1) The stun damage for the choke would be greatly dependent on strength, and moderately dependent on skill.  Half-giants and muls should be able to choke just about -anyone- out without ever having wrestled before in their lives, because they're strong enough to rip your arms right out of the sockets in the first place.

2) Choke should branch from subdue, so newbie warriors and subclass guards aren't instant killing machines.

3) Failing a skillcheck on choke should cause the victim to be released, because if choke branches from subdue, the subduer's skill level is going to be high enough that the subued probably won't be able to escape. If this is the case, once an individual branches the choke skill, it becomes pointless to even have the skillcheck, because they'll simply be able to spam it until it succeeds, while the victim is unable to escape anyway.  If you're not going to let the victim escape, there's no point in even having a skillcheck, or even a skill for that matter.

4) Skillchecks should get a massive bonus for strength.  Large enough so that muls and half-giants without subdue or choke would be able to choke out most unskilled victims.  Again, because muls and half-giants are (and should be) scary as hell.

[SpyGuy]

2) Choke should branch from subdue, so newbie warriors and subclass guards aren't instant killing machines.

3) Failing a skillcheck on choke should cause the victim to be released, because if choke branches from subdue, the subduer's skill level is going to be high enough that the subued probably won't be able to escape. If this is the case, once an individual branches the choke skill, it becomes pointless to even have the skillcheck, because they'll simply be able to spam it until it succeeds, while the victim is unable to escape anyway.  If you're not going to let the victim escape, there's no point in even having a skillcheck, or even a skill for that matter.

I absolutely love all of Synthesis's ideas on this matter.  Having another skill for warriors to branch that might make them more useful seems like a good idea to me, especially since it's a needed skill for the game.  But having it be possible for nonskilled users as well sounds great.

A few ideas to add:

1) Each choke attempt should give the victim a chance to escape if it fails as Synthesis said.  I'd suggest having this chance be dependent on the victim's subdue skill.  So if a warrior moderately skilled at subdue is getting choked by a halfgiant he should have a much better chance of breaking free than a merchant without the skill.

2) After choke drains all of a person's stun points it should then it should start to drain hp.  This way someone has the ability to kill a victim with it slowly.  I can see this offering a lot of possibilities for interrogation and RPing a kill without having to draw weapons and make a bloody mess of it.

3)  This might go without saying but if a person is in a condition where he can automatically be subdued (paralyzed or already knocked out) then choke's success should be automatic.

4)  Choke should have a small delay associated with it since any choke attempt, successful or not, should represent prolonged effort.  This would also enable more ability to RP the scene and not just spam the command.

Those are my small additions.  Jumping on the choke is a great idea bandwagon here.

[Fragmented]

I absolutely do not agree that choke should branch from subdue, nor that it should only be available to warriors. Anyone can choke somebody, just like anyone can pick up the reigns and eventually pilot an argosy.

I think choke shouldn't even be a skill. It should be a command, for when you have someone subdued. If you stink at subdue, or they're really fast and you can't grab them to begin with, they're safe. But if, for instance, they're sleeping, you should be able to grab them (waking them up if they -can- be woken up) and choke the life out of them.

[Morfeus]

I absolutely do not agree that choke should branch from subdue, nor that it should only be available to warriors. Anyone can choke somebody, just like anyone can pick up the reigns and eventually pilot an argosy.

And like anyone can pick and use the sword, for example?  :twisted:

[Cenghiz]

Anyone can subdue, sneak, hide, steal, kick, bash or swing weapons.. Just... some folks learn and some do not.
Choke should be something learned I believe.. A skill...

[Aldiel]

I absolutely do not agree that choke should branch from subdue, nor that it should only be available to warriors. Anyone can choke somebody, just like anyone can pick up the reigns and eventually pilot an argosy.

I think choke shouldn't even be a skill. It should be a command, for when you have someone subdued. If you stink at subdue, or they're really fast and you can't grab them to begin with, they're safe. But if, for instance, they're sleeping, you should be able to grab them (waking them up if they -can- be woken up) and choke the life out of them.

I don't agree.  I this would be awesome.  And I think having choke branch is an awesome idea.  Having a skill doesn't mean you can't do it if you don't have it, it just means you can't gain skill in it.  I could try to track with a warrior if I wanted to.

[Fragmented]

Picking up a sword and swinging it is not necessarily proper sword technique.

Spotting a footprint in the sand is not necessarily proper tracking technique.

What kind of technique could -possibly- be involved in choking someone? You're cutting off their air. Anybody and everybody in Zalanthas knows that breath is drawn through the mouth and the nose because they breath. Anybody and everybody would know that if you squeeze someone's throat, they cannot breathe. It's not a matter of technique. It should be something (not a skill) that anybody can use, with some modifiers such as strength being relevant.

Second of all, Warriors already have a billion ways to kill someone. They're soldiers, fighters, whatever they are, it doesn't involve finesse. My original thoughts on smothering/choking someone were for assassins, to give them a clean, quiet way to kill someone. So if -anybody- gets this as a skill, I think it should be assassins and -maybe- burglars.

To hell with warriors, and to hell with rangers. They're buff enough at killing. Given the difficulty of becoming accomplished at backstabbing, I think this would be a nice addition to assassins if not given to everyone.

[SpyGuy]

This would also be a great assassin skill.  I think it would benefit both classes.

Why have it as a skill?  Mainly so that you can choke a person while actively struggling with them.  Realistically I could try to wrestle with a person sure, and might even pin them for a moment.  But do I know how to put them in an efficient chokehold?  Hell no.

The way I see it, if the skill was automatic in situations like someone is passed out or can't resist then great, anyone can do it without failing.  And if someone is resisting a player with a higher strength or just luck might be able to successfully choke even if neither had the skill.  But if your victim is resisting then there should be some sacrifice (ie. a chance they break free) towards trying a choke manuever and making it a skill heavily modified by strength and/or size, with a chance at failure and the ability to improve makes it a lot more interesting and realistic than a simple command.

[Cenghiz]

What kind of technique could -possibly- be involved in choking someone? You're cutting off their air. Anybody and everybody in Zalanthas knows that breath is drawn through the mouth and the nose because they breath. Anybody and everybody would know that if you squeeze someone's throat, they cannot breathe.

Maybe you need the skill to break their arms first, so they cannot resist?

I don't know the general approach, but if someone tries to choke me, I would try to kick, fist, bite... anything to survive. But someone skilled in killing people bare-handed would know to hold me in the right position rendering me defenceless.
Go try punching an aikido practitioner. They may teach us all why choking, breaking bones... anything killing bare-handed requires skill.

Note: Still, I believe Aikido sucks.. Someone more skilled than I am would quickly kick their asses.

Cenghiz the Once Beaten in Past.

[Maybe42or54]

Add it to a subclass!

Thug. Mercenary.

Thugs strangle people, right?

[X-D]

Like the idea of choke.

Don't like it as a branched skill, period.

Simply, You subdue, you wish to attempt to choke, type the command, They can try to flee same as normal ETC.

If your skill or strength is low they get away, poof no choke.

Add in a str mod to stun damage and we are done.

Makes it easier for half-giants and muls to strangle little scrawny things, like elves, half-elves, humans. halfling and even dwarves.

Course, at times, Keeping ahold of that wiggly halfling or slick elf might be a problem.

Warriors, already having a great subdue skill would of course be the best at choking anyway.

Lets face it, choking somebody you have in a headlock does not take any great skill or training, its not a great secret passed down from one uber warrior to another.

Summery:

Choke command, Good.

Choke Skill, Bad.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with XD on this one. Choking should be race and class irrelevant.

[Synthesis]

I don't know if any of you have actually done any serious grappling, but choking someone out isn't simply a matter of grabbing them around the throat and squeezing.

It's actually very difficult to do it well enough such that your opponent will lose consciousness.

Airway chokes are almost completely ineffective, first of all.  You might be able to get a tired, inexperienced opponent to panic and tap out quickly, if you're strong enough, but an experienced fighter will just sit there and let you tire yourself out.  Trust me, no matter how strong you think you are, you probably can't maintain a maximum flex of your arm for the minute (or longer) it takes to completely knock someone out by obstructing their airway.  Eventually, you're going to get tired enough so that they can wriggle out.  And if you've been grappling for longer than a minute already, you won't even get close to knocking them out with an airway choke.  (Unless your opponent has given up their back, and you've got them in a sloppy figure-four...then you -might- be able to hang on until they pass out.)

Blood chokes are effective, but they take a great deal of skill and practice to do correctly.  A blood choke will knock someone out in 10-30 seconds, if it's completely 'set' in, but again, it's very difficult to do it correctly.  About the only way you can really get it is if your opponent gives up his back, and you get a good figure-four from behind.  This doesn't happen often, because most people instinctively fight to face toward you, protecting their back.

This is why you almost never see choke-outs in UFC or King of the Cage fights anymore.  They're almost impossible to set in, especially against an opponent who also knows what he's doing.  It's much easier to use joint manipulation or "ground and pound," because strength and skill advantage are much easier to capitalize on with these techniques.  

The Gracies had their  few years of domination using chokes, because it was a relatively new thing, but as soon as other fighters adapted to it, they became ineffective, because it really is pretty easy to protect against a choke, when you know what you're doing, or if you're struggling hard enough.

When we're talking about two relatively inexperienced combatants of roughly equal size, chokes are almost out of the question.  You might make your opponent out of breath with a choke, but you'll be making yourself just about equally tired in the process.  Obviously this doesn't apply if one fighter is significantly larger, stronger, or skilled.

The point of all this is to support the idea that a 'choke' shouldn't be something "anyone can do."  It's a very difficult thing to do correctly, and as such only experienced grapplers (those with a significant subdue skill) should be able to even get close to incapacitating a victim with a choke.  (And extremely strong individuals, such as muls and half-giants.)

However, I can see a special choke command added for assassins...'strangle,' which would use a special item (length of knotted cord or something) and allow them to start choking someone without a subdue, and without initiating combat.  Since this wouldn't initiate combat, it would be somewhat more powerful than sap, but having the same result (loss of stun points).  The victim would have to 'flee' out of it, with success based on the relationship between the assassin's 'strangle' skill, the victim's 'flee' skill, and the victim's base defense skill (with appropriate modifiers for strength and agility).  Since this would be such a powerful skill, it would branch from something...possibly sap.

[Supreme Allah]

I like the strangle idea Synthesis has proposed. He also seems well-informed on the matter of chokes, grappling, and so forth.

Assassins seem like such one-trick ponies. Give them something unique like this (it'd even be somewhat strength-based, which seems nice and different) that a subguild can't give and I think we might be onto something.

I wouldn't branch it from sap, though.

[SpyGuy]

Thanks for the detailed description Synthesis, my defense of choke as a skill is really based on the fact that it doesn't look easy to do.  That said I think the command should be usable by anyone, with or without the skill, but the skill would allow characters who aren't muls or halfgiants who can overpower with strength to improve at the skill to reflect serious training.  A grapple doesn't necessarily mean a chokehold or the power to easily knock out your opponent.

I also really like the idea of a strangle command.  The way I see it is being a lot like a subdue/choke combo where you immediately get your opponent in a grapple and begin draining stun.  Would be an awesome addition to stealth PCs.

[X-D]

Man, I've choked out people many times, And nearly been choked out before, by my -little- sister no less when she snuck up on me and got ahold. I was nearly out before real panic set in and I managed to lift her over my head, and then only because she was much smaller and younger then me.


No, choking is EASY in the extreme, it takes no skill.

Grappling and holding in order to choke is what takes the skill and strength.

In arm grappling is handled by the subdue SKILL. Adding the command to be able to choke a subdued person makes sense. Amount of stun damage done being based on subduer's STR verses subduee's END. This would decide how many chances you get to try and escape. If an elf warrior with very high subdue manages to subdue a mul it is going to take him a very long time to choke the mul to 0 stun. But if a mul managed to subdue the elf it would take only 2 or 3 tries at most. I think this would be accurate representation.

Also, though somebody without the skill can subdue (IE half-giants, muls) It is VERY easy to escape, specialy if the one being subdued has high AGI or the skill. Also, I think choke should COST Stam points to reflect the effort. This way, if somebody manages to escape they have a better chance of being able to run away...OR...if the subduing char is too week they run out of MV and simply cannot do it.

Again, Choking someone unconsious once they are physicly under your control is pretty damm easy to do and figure out, assuming you manage to KEEP them that way.

Even using Synthesis' examples, what we are still talking about here is the GRAPPLE side not the choke side. Again IRL and IG Grappling takes skill or simply HUGE size and str.

Also, Synthesis, Blood chokes are rather easy, and people even with rather low str can do it without much training if they get the jump on you are are willing to take a mild bit of damage for the short time it takes.
PLUS, if you do get somebody from behind, arm around and locked it cuts AIR and Blood, 30 seconds max.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Syn, you're typically well-informed and such, and I don't doubt that you've some knowledge in this as well.

But X-D is right. If you can subdue, the skill used to grapple, you can choke. It's really that simple, and seriously, it's not hard at all to choke someone out. It is seriously something based on strength versus endurance. Only well-muscled people, thick in the neck, like a strong dwarf or human, a very very strong elf, or a typical half-giant or mul, can hope to not get choked out without escaping the hold.

Choke should not be a skill that is restricted. If you are good enough to subdue, you should have access to choke.

[Synthesis]

X-D, like I said, if you get behind someone, it's easy to do both.

The problem is, subdue isn't a 'surprise' command.  It initiates what amounts to a grappling sequence, not jumping on someone's back and immediately grabbing their throat.  Furthermore, it's far too easy to 'subdue' someone, as long as you have the skill.  In all reality, only extremely skilled martial-artists can actually get someone in the type of hold 'subdue' represents on the game.  On the game, however, almost anyone can do it, if they try enough.  Having choke run an additional skill check adds an element of reality to the situation:  you need to know what you're doing to actually make somebody pass out.

Yes, -choking- is easy.  Choking someone to the point of unconsciousness is not.  I've done a lot of basic grappling in the Marine Corps, and I'm telling you, tap-outs on chokes almost never happen, except when one combatant is much stronger or much more skilled than the other.  Arm-bars, wrist-locks, ankle-locks, and other joint manipulations are much more common, because they're much easier to lock in.  Usually, grappling matches end with both fighters exhausted to the point of being practically incapacitated, within a couple of minutes.

And no, blood chokes are not easy to lock in, unless, like I said, you've already maneuvered around behind your opponent. (Even then, you have to know what you're doing, because you have to almost completely obstruct the flow of the carotid artery.  You can only do this by pressing your wrist bone directly onto the artery, or your forearm, if you're pretty skinny.)  "Subduing" someone doesn't necessarily mean you've maneuvered behind your opponent and have them in a figure-four headlock.  You could have them in a wrist lock, or an arm bar, or a dummy choke, or you could just be hanging on to their arms really well...it's not specific--certainly not specific enough to infer that you should be able to segue immediately to a blood choke.

I don't know where you get the idea that it's easy to lock in a blood choke, because it's simply not the case.  I -know- exactly how to do it, and I'm pretty strong, and I can almost never do it correctly, even if I do manage to get behind someone.  I've only seen a blood choke seriously locked in a handful of times (outside of watching old UFC fights), and this was by men who were pretty skilled and very strong.  There's no way your Average Joe would get into a brawl and manage to blood choke someone to the point of losing consciousness, unless the victim was already seriously incapacitated, significantly weaker, or significantly less skilled.

As you can see, it all keeps coming back to skill, skill, skill.  It's not a simple matter of getting the jump on someone and wrapping your arm around their throat.  If it were, it would happen frequently, but it just doesn't.

[X-D]

Alright, I'm pretty much done with this thread, unless something really new is said, But.

Synthesis, Even your own arguements point to grapling being the key, You simply CANNOT, choke someone till they pass out unless you CONTROL them physicly, You have not argued that.

The point is though CONTROL, In game, when somebody is subdued they are under the control of the subduer, they are under such SOLID control that if they do not break out, the subduer can drag them where ever he wants, he can throw them around he can even (key point here) Transfer control to other people *Without fail*. The person subdued also gets NO saves at all. Now this points to a pretty Solid amount of control, Enough that you can pretty much figure that both arms are pinned behind them and they have an arm around thier throat or some other hold leaving that person totally and completley defenseless.

As to RL descriptions and such, there is simply no way to prove one point or the other, Sure, you have been in the marines and talk of tap outs and such. I don't know about that. I know I'm a 200lbs 6 foot tall male in quite good shape, I know I used to fight ALOT, I know that I have been to jail for it so many times I had to move because all the CO's knew me by name when I walked in and even the judges were like "So, in front of me for the same thing?"

And I know, short of you driving to me or me driving to you, there is no way to prove one way or another, personal experiance simply proves nothing, I could be blowing smoke out my ass and be a 5' tall 122 lbs 16 year old who has been home schooled.

But, I DO know how grappling (subdue) Is represented in game. And if I could get to the web page I'd even quote the help file as I'm pretty sure it even states that a subdued person is totally helpless other then trying to escape. And Tell me that you don't think you could choke somebody rather easily if they were completley helpless under your control?

As to being too easy in game, Sure, it is, but often it is JUST as easy to break free. Hell, add in a little delay after on the choke command and anybody will have to be damm good at subdue before trying it cause if the victem breaks free, you just might be the one subdued and choked or they might simply draw weapons and attack knowing you are gonna be unarmed and unable to flee for say 5-10 seconds.

Again, I think that choke itself working off str verses end, no skill is accuratly represented in difficulty by the current Subdue skill. I see it as simply being FAR too powerful as a seperate branched skill not to mention that it simply is not something that hard to do, in and of itself.

Also, one last thing on the RL talk. I'm absolutly positive that if I can get somebody subdued that I *WILL* get my hands around their throat if I so wish and short of having a gun, they will be unable to remove them before they are choked out, I may take some damage, but it will happen.

[jmordetsky]

If we implemented this, does that mean that mudsexors would start subduing each other to do that asphyxia thing?

That said,

I can't take this thread seriously. The last thing I want to see in game are half giants  that can choke the life out of people by jump typing "subdue".

Realistically, yes, if you were grappling a 600 pound half-giant he would definitely be able to choke the fucking shit out you with his foot wide hands. Does that mean it would be playable? Fuck no.

[Tamarin]

Ya because half-giants are slow as shit, so they'd have a very hard time getting ahold of you in the first place.  Ever tried to pick up a serious wriggling dog or cat with one hand?  Yeah.  It's not easy.  Even with two.

[Maybe42or54]

Etwo marriage cord

strangle bitch-ass-lover-that-wants-to-ditch-you-for-another

Now, if anyone is pissed off, they can pretty much strangle anything else their same size or smaller.

[Rindan]

Personally, I think that subdue should get an overhaul.  I think that subdue should be broken up into two parts.  It should be broken up into the ability to grab someone and the ability to hold someone once grabbed.  

In terms of grabbing someone, the defense against subdue should be the same as the defense against any weapon attack.  If you have your weapons up, you should get the expected bonus.  Nothing is more irritating then having a mercenary warrior of death who can go toe to toe with half-giant wielding a two handed maul of death get subdued.  If you can't hit the guy with a weapon, you shouldn't be able to grab him with your bare hands.  As it stands, against a massively skilled warrior, a half-giant is more of a danger when he doesn't have a weapon then when he does.  That is simply wrong.  Make the defense against subdue the same as any weapon attack.  Make what determines if you grab someone based upon the subdue skill and agility.

Once someone is grabbed, THEN strength should take over.  The stronger you are, the hard it is for someone get away.  The defense to get out of a subdue once in it should be strength and the flee skill.  An elf in the hands of a half-giant should be properly fucked.  A half-giant in the hands of an elf should tear the elf's head off.  Once a half-giant has his hands on you, you should be in some deep shit unless you are a half-giant or mul.  The savings grace is that it would be a lot easier to avoid getting into the hands of a half-giant or mul in the first place.

Under this sort of system, choke would work perfectly.  Once someone has you under their control, they can start to choke you.  Choke would start knocking off movement points depending upon the attackers strength and the defenders endurance.  If you don't like being choked, the wise thing to do would be to start spamming flee before it is too late.

So, an elf might be able to grab and start choking you easier then he can now, but most people would easily break free long before they were in any danger.  A half-giant would have a much harder time grabbing your elf, but once he did grab your elf you would be completely fucked as your chances of getting away would be slim to none.

[Synthesis]

Fine, you think it's easy, I think it's hard.  There's really no way to resolve that disagreement, but I think I've provided substantially better reasoning to support my claim that it is difficult.

"Control" in a fight is a relative thing.  You can choke people without necessarily being in a "controlling" position. (A triangle choke, for example, or a redneck choke.)  Under these circumstances, you can be choking your opponent while they're pounding your face, or actually picking you up and dropping you on your head...it just depends.  I'm not saying that it's going to be a -good- choke under those circumstances, but you will have a part of your body around their throat, for what it's worth.

What actually happens in the game, codewise, isn't really a strong position to argue from.  The subdue command is wonky, and trying to use that wonkiness as part of your argument significantly decreases its effectiveness.  I'm trying to argue from the perspective of realism.  And realism says "getting someone under that kind of control is very difficult, at best."

Oh, and all these considerations are based on opponents of equal size and strength!  If you start taking these factors into account, the reasoning gets extremely messy.  Hence the ceteris paribus simplification.  Code tweaks regarding size, strength, agility, skill, and the rest can all be debated after the primary issue is settled.

I don't really care how big you are, or how many fights you've gotten in, except as it provides some evidence of your knowledgability.  The fact that you've been in a number of fights doesn't cinch up the truth of your premises.  It adds a little credibility, perhaps, but from what I've seen of the rest of your argument, you don't know precisely what you're talking about, theoretically, when it comes to fighting.  Maybe you're a good fighter...fine, some people just get it naturally.  But you don't seem to have a great deal of technical knowledge, and since we're talking code here, technical knowledge of the mechanics of combat is a must, since that's what we're trying to accurately depict.

The fact that it's easy to break free from a subdue does nothing to mitigate the fact that it's easy to accomplish the subdue in the first place.  Again, the subdue code is wonky.  If we're going to add functionality to the subdue command, by adding another maneuver to it (especially a maneuver as dangerous and potentially deadly as a choke-out), I'd rather this maneuver be difficult to perform, to reflect the fact that, realistically, the entire -sequence- of combat, from the initial clinch, to the grappling, to the takedown, to the manipulation, to the choke is a process that is difficult to master, and difficult to succeed at, when your opponent is equally matched.  Right now, two warriors can have equally matched subdue skills, but the subdue goes to whoever types subdue first.  Now, if subdue were changed to reflect the fact that grappling is a process, I can see everyone being able to use the command--because most people would never get to the manipulation stage of the process.  However, as is, it's simply too dangerous an ability to give to anyone who can successfully whip off a subdue.

I don't see how it would be far too powerful as a separate branched skill.  Grappling is the province of warriors.  Warriors are supposed to be the masters of combat.  Only excellent warriors would be able to do this, which would limit its power by effectively distributing it to a small segment of the subduing population.  -Not- being branched, on the other hand, would allow everyone to do it, which would make it too powerful...so I don't really think your argument is supporting your position here.

Again, to the realism.  I'm fairly sure that, if you got your hands around another 200 lb. man's throat, he would break your fingers, gouge your eyes out, rip your ears off, tear your cheek, break ribs...any -number- of things before you managed to choke him out with your hands around his neck.  (That's actually one of the worst ways to choke someone, and one of the easiest chokes to escape from.)  You might've been able to manhandle people in the fights you've been in, because 6 ft, 200 lbs is fairly above average.  But if you were up against someone the same size in control of all his faculties, he would force you to let go long before a minute had passed.  (This is assuming that you didn't take him completely by surprise.  But we're talking about straight grappling here, not surprise attacks.)

So, all in all, I don't think your argument is very effective at all, and you need to clarify exactly what you're talking about, or at least provide some kind of support for your assertion that choking someone is easy.  I think I've gone fairly out of my way to explain in great detail the various reasons why it IS NOT EASY...so until you can come up with something better than "Dude, I've done it, man. It's totally easy," I'll rest my case here.

[X-D]

Quick point or two, sorry, couldn't stay away.

Realistically, yes, if you were grappling a 600 pound half-giant he would definitely be able to choke the fucking shit out you with his foot wide hands. Does that mean it would be playable? Fuck no

600 pounds is not a half-giant, it is closer to mul, min HG weight is around 1400 pounds Top end around 1800-2000 pounds.

Wiggling puppies are VERY easy to grab and hold if you don't care about hurting it or it biting you.

Half-giants are slow in the head, and not agil do to mass, but take a look at ANY hugely muscled animal and you will find that they are all VERY fast, blindingly so at times. I'd love to watch anybody try and dodge a swat from a 1800lbs grizzly, Grizzlies swat 30lbs samon from the water, lets see you do it., or a kick from a horse I've seen them lift both rear feet and kick 2-3 times before they land back on the ground, Hell, Brama bulls are huge massive muscled animals and look what they do in a rodeo.
Go to a Zoo or watch a wildlife show with silverback gorrillas, big 600-800lbs male, they are FAST when pissed..and probly nearly as bright as a zalanthas HG.

Yes yes, I know that has been hashed and rehashed so many times its not even funny, but shit, I *know* that if I'm in a room with a 600 pound Bengal tigar, or gorrilla or bear and it is within 20 feet and it wants to maul me, and all I have is a sword, Shit, I'm gonna be mauled, and so would ANY other human.

[SpyGuy]

X-D:  Sorry if I missed your point and I agree, big wild animals are fast and dangerous.  But that isn't a half-giant, it's an animal.  The files aren't up but half giants are specifically slow, they have low agilities and it's reflected in how they fight.  I have no problems with halfgiants being awesome subduers, I imagine it would be hard for someone to escape from one leaping at them and grabbing them into a tight bearhug or whatever manuever a lumbering monster would try.

The main reason I want to see choke as a skill (heavily modified by strength/size to allow any HG or strong mul to possibly do it and usable without having branched) is so that it doesn't become too powerful.  The way I understand choke working not as a skill is that warrior A subdues Ranger B.  Warrior A can then freely (or with loss of MV points in some versions) choke Ranger B until he passes out or Ranger B successfully flees from the subdue.  But as long as Ranger B is subdued he's automatically going to be able to be choked with no real loss to Warrior A.

Having choke as a skill would mean that Warrior A could then fail the skill and in attempting to get a chokehold would allow Ranger B to escape.  Unless Warrior A had a large enough strength/size bonus to his choke skill to guarantee success he would seriously have to weigh the option of using the skill because of the drawbacks.  But as he improved with the skill over time he could use it with relative certainty, but the victim would still have a chance to escape through fleeing.

What I'd hate to see is that every subdue attempt turns into the attacker spam choking while the victim spam flees.  It shouldn't be a given that a subduer can begin choking you successfully, it should be a moderately difficult skill to master and one that the victim will really fear when used successfully.  As it stands now I'm pretty sure a person with the subdue skill can easily get another PC that doesn't have the skill in a hold and maintain that hold through multiple flee attempts.  I don't want to see those brand new warriors also being able to choke out PCs as well.

[X-D]

Ugh, Synthesis, your post went in before mine:)

Right now, two warriors can have equally matched subdue skills, but the subdue goes to whoever types subdue first

Wrong on that point, and thinking so makes me think that you have relatively low experiance with the skill in game. Code wise, two human warriors with near equal time on subdue skill will most likley bounce. The code does take in consideration of the skill of each in subdue before size and strength, there are other factors as well. I've played many warriors of many races and when matched equally while practicing subdue we normaly get a whole string of you try but he slips away messages before managing, and then on escaping the skill is taken in there also, for both parties. And usually the subdued warrior can escape the first try then its on to a bunch of fails between the two.

But I've had new STRONG dwarf warriors subdued by weak half-elf warriors with a lot of play time and been unable to escape.

I've played Half-giants without the skill at all and even though they usually can subdue a human warrior on the first try, that warrior can normaly slip the hold the first try also.

I submit that the subdue code is in fact NOT wonky, that it works quite well.

A command to choke would, as I said only need a few mods, delay after, hell, even a short delay before would be fine, and checks on str verses end to decide effectiveness of the choking followed by a stamina cost.
This, combined with the subdue code would quite accuratly reproduce realistic effects.
People SKilled in the art of grappling would automaticly be skilled in choking, those who are not would be far less so.

I don't see how it would be far too powerful as a separate branched skill. Grappling is the province of warriors. Warriors are supposed to be the masters of combat. Only excellent warriors would be able to do this, which would limit its power by effectively distributing it to a small segment of the subduing population. -Not- being branched, on the other hand, would allow everyone to do it, which would make it too powerful...so I don't really think your argument is supporting your position here.

Only good warriors would be able to "successfully" do it in most cases anyway, Or people without the subdue skill itself but overmatching the opponent in other ways, which again would be an accurate reflection of realism.

Again, to the realism. I'm fairly sure that, if you got your hands around another 200 lb. man's throat, he would break your fingers, gouge your eyes out, rip your ears off, tear your cheek, break ribs...any -number- of things before you managed to choke him out with your hands around his neck. (That's actually one of the worst ways to choke someone, and one of the easiest chokes to escape from.) You might've been able to manhandle people in the fights you've been in, because 6 ft, 200 lbs is fairly above average. But if you were up against someone the same size in control of all his faculties, he would force you to let go long before a minute had passed. (This is assuming that you didn't take him completely by surprise. But we're talking about straight grappling here, not surprise attacks.)

Again, there is no real way to prove this other then actually trying it out.
Theory will only get you so far. I've boxed quite a bit when I was younger, I found though that even if your boxing skills and theory are good, this does you basicly no good on the street, other then fitness and ability to take some pain.

But, Most people even my size panic, they are less then skilled in mind or body even if my size. Eye gouges mostly only work if the person is not prepared to take a bit of pain, it is more a psychological move then anything, people are trained to protect their eyes, but the fact is, your eyes are actually quite hard to damage. Break ribs? Thats almost silly at that range. Break fingers, doubtful, least in my case, there are certain bonuses to having been a roofer for 14 years, one is extremely strong forearms (IE, fingers and hands) Also, if I'm going for a choke from the front, you come in low and fast looking to try and grasp waist, Stand quickly, bringing your head up fast, if they stay leaned over then they get the back of your head in the face hard (very messy I might add) Many will straighten or in some manner try to avoid, this leaves inside opening for hands to neck, Grasp tightly using the POINT of the thumbs below the voicebox if possible Bring self in close thereby minimizing strength of blows and attempt to push the tips of your thumbs through that little divit under the voicebox. The nice thing about this method of choking is that it damages the trachea and keeps it centered back in the neck allowing pressure to the arteries, Time to them not being able to think well enough to fight in any realistic manner is short, 15-20 seconds, time to KO, 35-60 seconds.

Now, Damaged ears, probly, damaged face, probly that too, but if I'm going in, I'm prepared for that. I never once said I would not take damage:)

Now, as to somebody say, oh 100 pounds heavier then me, Heh, if I can't get them by suprise and from behind, I'm not going to attempt it.

Also, the Theory behind grappling/brawling, Heh, Do to them before they do to me. Translated to game, Hope I type subdue/backstab/sap/kill/uber spell of doom before they do.

No joke though there folks, 90% of the fights I've been in were over very quickly and depended on who lands the first good blow or who knocks down who first. And if you ever watch any of the ultimate fighting, Heh, thats normaly how that goes as well.

And lastly, on Synthesis post.
Choking itself IS easy, there is nothing at all complicated about it. ::Theory behind choke, Cut off air and or blood untill person passes out...Possible methods..One..Pressure to the neck in some manner::
There Simple...now
For the Third-Fifth time now, its the grappling, getting and maintaning control while doing it that is the hard part

Rindan, Man, it already does seperate the two, Really, it does.

Spyguy, I'm with you on that point. And so, again, why not just have that chance that while choking, you fail, do no damage, still get the lag after and stam loss and they have say, of 50% chance of escaping on a fail.
Success or failure would still be based on subdue skill/strength/size.

Look, I'm simply against it being an actual branched skill because it would mean that a very few people would be EXTREMLEY powerful with it and nobody else would have it or any defense really, OR it would be nerfed to the point of uselessness like certain other skills coughkickcough.

Plus, without it being a skill, that leaves more to doubt.
warrior A subdues ranger B, Ranger B happens to have sub with subdue.
Ranger B easily breaks free, subdues warrior A, Warrior fails to break free, ranger B chokes warrior A, warrior says SHIT, manages to escape and says fuck that, UBER warrior weapon skills to work!!! Bash, disarm disarm maim.

And honestly, I like leaving more to doubt, mix it up, merchant/guard might be able to turn the tables on that would be mugger;)

[SpyGuy]

I'm really replying to this thread too much but it's just because I love the idea   :wink:

Ok X-D, I see your point.  I feel there are certain advantages to it being branched but with the proper setup it could work under subdue.  Off the top of my head here's what I think it would need to be fair.

Choke:
- Victim must be subdued by the attacker first before being used
- It is based primarily off of the subdue skill and strength/size modifiers
- When the attacker attempts a choke there is a new subdue check with some moderate penalties, if the attacker fails then the victim is released
- Using the choke command costs some movement, (5-10?) reflecting the drain it takes in an extended grapple
- There is a normal command delay, same as kick or bash, to using the choke command to give time for emotes and/or the victim to flee

The main reason why I don't like it being linked to subdue is perhaps it would be too powerful then, especially since it is a more advanced manuever than a simple hold.  That said if the choke command worked off the subdue skill, but included some decent penalties as well, it would make it for better balance issues.  I don't mind the idea of a 5 day warrior who has practiced subdue extensively being able to take down a ranger without the skill by choking them.  But I'd like to make sure that a ranger or anyone has a good chance of breaking from a choke attempt by a new or unskilled warrior.  The idea, imho, is to have a new way to knock out a victim other than wildly barehanding them into unconsciousness.  I don't want choke to become the new, preferred way to PK.

That said:  Is it possible to subdue an armed combatant who has nosave off?  I'll admit to not having extensively explored the skill and I've forgotten what I did learn about it with some warriors.  I just really hope to never see Warrior A out in the desert sheathing his weapons to subdue Ranger B and then choking him out, when Ranger B had his axes drawn but couldn't do a damn thing about it  :roll:

[XD being lazy]

Ooops, Alright, that is one part of subdue I admit to being wonky.

And that how easy it is to subdue somebody who is standing up with weapons ready and take no damage for it -if- successful.

But that has been the issue of many past threads on the subject.