The Here-after

[RogueWarrior]

How do Zalanthans see the afterlife? Do they see it as more of a Valhala type thing? Or is it more of a heaven as we see in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam? Any input?

[Larrath]

The vast majority of Zalanthans have absolutely no concept of an afterlife, excepting possibly "burning with Suk-Krath" or "being with Drov".  Once you die, you disappear and that's it.
That's at least has always been my outlook, and I always liked having this lack of afterlife.  It makes the struggle for survival that much more desperate.

[Cenghiz]

What is the greatest thing in Arm?
It's that not everything is forced to our characters. The setting is intentionally left unfinished.. We have a good amount of flexibility on what we can choose to play and how we should play on many many aspects. And I believe one of the 'blank's in the setting is the religion, just to serve a purpose of variety and conflict.
So some of my characters thought of a judgement day administered by either God Kings, or the local god of the tribe. Some of my elementalists thought they would go to their element's plane of existance upon death. Some thought they would just disappear and they didn't have anything permanent like a soul. Yada yada.. My chars thought real differently on this subject.
I believe anything's acceptable as long as it's in rhyme with the setting. Only if someone tells me in game that a preserver named Jesus will come and fight the evil defiler Diablo in the tablelands, I would find it cheesy.. That's all.

[Malifaxis]

Your views and ideas are based on the mindset of your character.

I have had characters that believed that what they were living was the afterlife.  Do what you will.

[Rindan]

You average city bound character does not believe in an afterlife.  There is one religion in the city states, and that is the God King worship.  God Kings do not advocate any sort of afterlife.  God Kings tell you that they are all that stands between you and the end of existence.  The God King protects you and lets you carry on with your meek, meager little life under the protection of His city walls.  Leave the city walls and His protection and you face certain death and the end of your existence in the barren wastes.  Believing that once you are dead you are dead is a pretty strong motivating factor in not dying.

Now, your average commoner might also believe in ghosts and demons, but I think they would attribute this more to magikers stealing souls and mucking around with death then a natural progression to the afterlife.  In my opinion, there is no belief in any sort of afterlife.  Any "afterlife" a commoner can imagine is the result of evil magikers and almost certainly a fate much worse then simply ceasing to exist.

[mansa]

Some say the Realm of Drov is where everybody goes when they die.  They wait around there for the longest time, whispering their secrets of their life to the others.

Some ancient tribes spoke of Apocalypse as a cruel fake world of Zalanthas, where everybody that was once dead is alive again, with new special powers.  People could be sorcerers and could fight gith, and metal weapons were everywhere.

[Malifaxis]

A few elite players know that mansa is Drov.  And that, when dead, all souls go to live in mansa's hair.

I hope this message gets out before it is deleted for IC info.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Mansa is ... just really weird, and not very helpful.

And somehow, he has a Canadian fanclub. I'm not sure why.

And yes, I'm sorry, that was very disrailing.

[Intrepid]

Mansa has also killed Chuck Norris.  Twice.

But seriously, the afterlife is something that could give a person hope for
a better world, but Zalanthan mythology and belief systems are so dismal
that they're more likely to be too pessimistic to believe in one...and if they
did, is it a place you'd really want to encounter?  As I recall, Krath and
Drov both have allusions to the Judeo-Christian Hell.

Something to chew on there.

[Yokunama]

Everyone goes back to Drov!

[EvilRoeSlade]

I have always envisioned that Zalanthans have a pre-Christianity concept of the afterlife.

When you die you go to the elemental plane of shadows.  Once your spirit is there, there's not much to do except drift around.  By all estimates, the afterlife sucks.

[Anonymous]

Food, shelter, clothing, survival comes before anyone sits down and sticks their thumb up their butt and ponder the meaning of life. Unless you have all of those its unlikely you will ponder any form of existance after death. You have better things to worry about then what happens when you fail.

Pretty much the only people who have it all are the god-kings and the nobles/templars, however...

The god-king has lived this long, its safe to say  he doesn't give a shit.

Templars are fanatical followers, and are happy screwing around everyone.

Borsail is too busy watching dwarves and humans go at it like wild jackrabbits.

Fale is too busy planning its next party.

Oash is too busy being paranoid that someone is going to shank them.

Tor is too busy trying to find fights.

Jah is too busy thinking about crap.

And Sath is too bust documenting it all.

In the world of Armageddon, i seriously dont think anyone has enough time to ponder, or even worry about an after-life, its already hard enough. Religion = a belief = a code of behaviour = weakness = death = not happy, jan.

[Malifaxis]

That is remarkably shortsighted.

Like, amazingly.

The fact is that the afterlife depends on WHAT YOUR CHARACTER THINKS.

If you think you're going to go to a world full of fuzzy tregils with breasts the size of bahamets, than have fun riding that fur train to bouncy town after you get gutted by a gith spear.

And for the record, not everyone is constantly grebbing and struggling and surviving.  What the hell else are you going to think about when you wake up hungover and feeling like you've been shat out of Drov's dark hole?

If no one had the time to sit down, no one would have the time to think.  Most intelligent people think about different things when they're about to go to sleep, and don't even get me started on dreams.

[EvilRoeSlade]

People that are struggling to survive don't have spiritual thoughts regarding religion and their own mortality?  Wow.

I guess we'll have to tell that to the people of the Dark Ages who clearly didn't have any time to practice Christianity for centuries and live in an opressive, conservative society solely because they believed that in so doing they would reap the rewards of an afterlife, and that their bleak, pitiful existences were only a brief prelude to eternal bliss.

Even cavemen with underdeveloped brains probably thought about the afterlife.  Saying that somebody is "too busy" for spirituality has no basis on fact.  Saying that they are so preoccupied with one narrow activity that they would never think about anything else is simply ridiculous.  I sincerely hope nobody role-plays their characters that way, because if they did then we'd get characters too busy trying to survive to do mundane things like experience emotion or ambition.

[Supreme Allah]

When your gods are right in front of you in the guise of ageless, omnipotent Sorcerer-Kings, religion and spirituality, I think, tend to take on a less of a fantastic glow than they ever did here on Earth.

Here on Zalanthas, our gods are quite real and quite present at all times. The world's two major centralized populations don't have to look past a tower or a pyramid for "religion", and if they ever did, there would be a dire, dire consequences being handed out by the friendly(Tuluk) or not-so-friendly(Allanak) neighborhood folks in colorful robes. I've never had a city-based character think about their own "spirituality" terribly far beyond that.

"This is life, they are gods, and I'm either with them or against them."

There are likely tribal nations that believe in an afterlife, but they keep it within their tribe, and I very much doubt there's been any religious movements of the magnitude of Judaism or (its offshoots) that weren't immediately crushed under the iron heels of Tek and Muk.

The only thing really close to belief in an afterlife I've heard of is Drov, and that's generally just a reference to death. I've never heard of anyone with Tek and/or Muk in their lives talking about meeting dead relatives in Drov or anywhere else, and to be honest I'd really, really prefer it that way.

[bloodfromstone]

I'm pretty sure that the idea of an afterlife is something that pretty much every culture ever has shared, including those that had to struggle constantly to survive or believed that their gods were among them. I, personally, would find it a little hard to believe that a culture that has the great looming presence of death like Zalanthas would not have a concept of afterlife.

I like the freedom of having hundreds of different beliefs being told by hundreds of different people. It's interesting to see what sort of creativity someone can express when forming their character's particular belief set, or how well they can pull off a complete lack of one.

[Angela Christine]

I suspect that in the cities people may have ideas about what happens when you die, but it is something personal.  It's something people don't talk about, the way people in America aren't keen on discussing what goes on in their underwear, groaning or giggling at commercials for birth control, feminine hygiene or herpes suppressive therapy products.  It isn't that they are necessarily embarrassed by their personal beliefs, but they are personal and not something discussed casually in public.  Spiritual beliefs are kept private for a couple of reasons:

There is no profit in evangelizing, no reason to convert others to your beliefs.  Any spiritual beliefs that did encourage converting others were probably wiped out by the templarate ages ago, so by a sort of Darwinism the beliefs that survive are ones that are either secretive or at least non-evangelical.  

The cities were all settled by a mix of tribes, and each tribe presumably had their own unique set of beliefs.  Those tribes were "united" a long time ago, so what was once a rich and ritualized set of beliefs has been diluted into a myriad of family traditions and superstitions.  You may not know what tribes your are descended from (at this point it is probably "all of them") but your particular family line may have preserved a peculiar mix of fragments that leads you to believe everything will be alright and you get to come back as long as you have your potato with you when you die.     These beliefs don't have to be as rigid or organized as a proper religion, they are just a mish-mash of superstitions you picked up as a kid.  

That way your PC can have pretty much whatever beliefs you want, without having to deal with the awkwardness of clashing throw-away comments in the taverns.

Angela Christine

[Rindan]

I'm pretty sure that the idea of an afterlife is something that pretty much every culture ever has shared, including those that had to struggle constantly to survive or believed that their gods were among them. I, personally, would find it a little hard to believe that a culture that has the great looming presence of death like Zalanthas would not have a concept of afterlife.

Comparing religion on Earth cultures to Zalanthas city state cultures is pointless.  There has been no Earth culture in the history of the world that had all powerful 1000+ year old god-kings who wipe out entire cities or turn into dragons when they get pissed.  There have been no cultures where god-kings have given powers to lesser minions to ensure that the population remains faithful.

Inside city states I think that the Templars would be pretty damn insistent that there is nothing but the God King and that there is no afterlife.  The last thing in the world a God King wants is a group of people with a belief that if they die that it isn't the end.  Such people have a nasty habit of disregarding their own fear and wellbeing and striking out at the current state with the belief that even if they fail, they will be greeted with an afterlife.  I imagine that the Templars takes pains to crush any religion that tries rise.  They might tolerate tribals with their own beliefs so long as they keep them to themselves.  

For your average Allanaki citizen though, I think they would believe that their god king is all that stands between them and the permanent end.  Anyone who makes an attempt to spread any other belief would find themselves disappearing in the night or publicly being killed, depending upon which city state it happens in.  That isn't to say that there might not be exceptions where people have picked up tribal beliefs from the outside or even formulated their own, but I think that your average Allanaki commoner would believe that their God King is all that stands between them and the barren wastes that will put an end to their existence, permanently.

[Hymwen]

Taken from the magicker faq (http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/magickfaq.html)

Why aren't magickers called clerics or druids?

Because there are no religions on Zalanthas: the sorcerer kings are swift to stamp out any attempt at such.

[amoeba]

Comparing religion on Earth cultures to Zalanthas city state cultures is pointless.  There has been no Earth culture in the history of the world that had all powerful 1000+ year old god-kings who wipe out entire cities or turn into dragons when they get pissed.  There have been no cultures where god-kings have given powers to lesser minions to ensure that the population remains faithful.

This is somewhat of a cop out.  The question is if there is a belief in a afterlife, not can one be killed for one's beliefs.  There are cultures in earth society where there was "belief" that there were dieties that were all powerful, wiped out entire cities when pissed and passed powers down to lesser beings.  The ancient cultures of the Myans and Aztecs had all powerful gods, with the kings being empowered by those gods. Egyptians had similar beliefs.  Even the bible is rife with stories of pissed off gods reaping vengance with a wave of thier hand.  Think Sodom and Gomoragh,  and the seven plauges that Moses brought down.  Belief and reality do not have to be one and the same thing.

People turn to trying to understand what happens when they die out of fear. In this they build beliefs that comfort them through diffucult times. Just because it is certian death to express these beliefs, does not mean that people don't think about these things and establish beliefs that help them cope.

I think rather than squelching the IC exploration of this question, it is something that would be explored, albiet never in the open for fear of reprisal.  It is complicated, highly risky, and messy subject, just the type that promotes conflict.  Isn't conflict what we all strive for IG anyway?

[Rindan]

Certainly throughout history there have been kings who claim power from god(s) and people who claim to perform miracles.  Almost all of these religions have included some sort of afterlife.  These people believed in an afterlife because it was apart of their beliefs.

Tektolnes and Muk Utep make no claims of an afterlife.  If you worship Tek or Muk, there is no afterlife in your belief system.  Tek and Muk are the only gods in their respective religions.  Further, we are talking about a religion that is damn hard to deny.  This is not the occasional miracle of the rain coming when it is needed.  This is a servant of god getting pissed off at you and calling down a column of flames from the sky.  These are two gods that are completely undeniable.  A guy from ancient Britian might go to ancient Rome, watch some Roman priest for a while, and call then Roman gods bull shit, but he wouldn't do the same if he went to Allanak and saw a Templar at work or Tek dealing with a rebel army in the form of a dragon.  These are gods with very tangible power that are almost impossible to deny.

Now, could someone decide that they don't believe their city state god when he says that there is nothing but the life he has allowed for in his city?  Sure, there are exceptions to every rule, especially when you are talking about the beliefs of half a million people or so.  For the vast majority of city dwellers though, I think that the undisputable powers of their god would crush belief in any other gods and afterlives.  Combine this with the fact that spreading an alternative belief is damn close to impossible under threat of death, I think that belief in anything other then Tek would be damn hard to accomplish inside a city state.

I think rather than squelching the IC exploration of this question, it is something that would be explored, albiet never in the open for fear of reprisal. It is complicated, highly risky, and messy subject, just the type that promotes conflict. Isn't conflict what we all strive for IG anyway?

People have and will continue to explore this in game.  The reality though is that for the vast majority of the people inside a city state, it isn't something that they would be receptive to.  Religious conflict outside of the conflict between Allanak and Tuluk will rightfully always be a minor.

[Jakahri]

There is no unified religion in Zalanthas that people can practice.

There are, however, plenty of ways to develop your own unique set of beliefs, be them physical or metaphysical, with each character.

I personally have no problem with anyone forming their own beliefs in a pc. I'd even go so far as to actively encourage people to develop a system of beliefs regarding spirituality with at least one of their characters. In my opinion it really helps flesh out that character even more.

[amoeba]

Tektolnes and Muk Utep make no claims of an afterlife.

Niether is there a statement, to the best of my knowledge, that there is not an afterlife.  It is left quite ambiguous.  Ambiquity is good and fine it allows exploration of these issues at a personal level or as a covert system of beliefs.  

There are, however, plenty of ways to develop your own unique set of beliefs, be them physical or metaphysical, with each character.

I personally have no problem with anyone forming their own beliefs in a pc. I'd even go so far as to actively encourage people to develop a system of beliefs regarding spirituality with at least one of their characters. In my opinion it really helps flesh out that character even more.

Exactlly.

[Marauder Moe]

While the idea of post-mortal existance does seem to be nearly universal (even cave men had burial rituals), not every religion places such empasis on an afterlife like Christianity does.

I think some Zalanthans may believe you have a spirit and it goes somewhere when you die, but probably don't consider the idea much beyond that.  I think everyone is far more concerned with their current lives.

Edit: a caveat being that the belief that what happens in this world affects what happens to you in the next may not exist in Zalanthas, save perhaps the fear of if you're killed in some magickal way.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Inside city states I think that the Templars would be pretty damn insistent that there is nothing but the God King and that there is no afterlife.

I still believe that most commoners would believe in an afterlife, but would have a primitive pre-Christianity concept of it.  If you die, maybe you go to the hell-pits of Suk-Krath and burn in eternal agony.  Or perhaps you go to the elemental plane of Drov and spend eternity boredly wandering through darkness, starving and dehydrating because there isn't anything to eat or drink.

Either way, the underlying theme is that a commoner's notion of an afterlife gives them a pretty strong incentive not to get themselves killed.

In the case of Zalanthas, the afterlife doesn't necessarily have to be tied with religion.  It's probably more along the lines of long-held superstitions thought of as common knowledge, unable to evolve into religion because the moment it does (and from time to time it will) a templar will get wind of it and kill the moron who thought "Gee, maybe we could go to the elemental plane of Vivadu instead.  That might actually be fun."

[Medena]

A belief in an afterlife presupposes there is an organized religion.  That religion teaches its followers the shared beliefs which have evolved about the nature of the place or state of being, how one gets there, etc, etc.  Just because practically every religion in human history has had a belief in the afterlife as one of its key tenets does not mean it is something which humans instinctually develop on their own. They don't.  Humanists and aetheists believe only in the here and now.  You can point to people in our modern world who belong to no organized faith who have their own ideas on the hereafter, but they are ones which will they have taken from a religion.

My point in all this rambling?  The god-kings are the nearest thing we have to a religion in Zalanthas. They do not teach of an afterlife.

[Jakahri]

A belief in an afterlife presupposes there is an organized religion.

That is incorrect. Perhaps in modern society your assertion could be accepted. Zalanthas is, as we all know, quite different than modern society. One cannot relate the conceptions of believing in an after-life and organized religion to Zalanthas; that simply makes no sense, for you are referring to two totally different, dynamic societies.

I see no reason why someone cannot believe in an after-life on ArmageddonMUD. In my opinion, the concept of an after-life is merely an extension of our inherent nature to survive; instinct, rather.

Just because practically every religion in human history has had a belief in the afterlife as one of its key tenets does not mean it is something which humans instinctually develop on their own. They don't.

That is a rather bold statement. Could you please show me the empirical results that support your claim?

I'm inclined to disagree with your claim, naturally.

Neanderthals, just before the emergence of the Cro-Magnon, placed the bones of their deceased inside cavernous pits. Anthropologists suggest that this is evidence supporting the idea that even ancient forms of humankind believed in some form of afterlife. NOTE: Neanderthals, as far as scientists have discerned thus far, had no unified religion, yet they obviously felt compelled to address the concept of a possible life after death.

The ancient Egyptians mummified their loved ones and pharoahs, placing their organs in clay jars, along with their own personal belongings to aid them in their journey to the "next life". The Egyptians, as far as I know, had no unified religion. They did, however, have a system of beliefs that revolved around "gods". The ancient Egyptian culture is, to me, the closest example of what Zalanthas might be like. Therefore, I stand by my former statement that developing a system of beliefs revolving around an afterlife is quite alright.

One final note:

There are tribes in ArmageddonMUD that have certain beliefs pertaining to the concept of life after death.

[Anonymous]

If you're good you go to heaven, but if you're bad you go to a place where the dead believe they're still livin' and they pray for death but death won't come.

UPN

Semper Pax,

Dirr