Southern / Northern Guild Differences

[moab]

I was thinking - it might be interesting to have different starting skill sets for the same guilds starting in different cities.

For example - a new ranger starting in Allanak really might never have learned to use a bow owing to the lack of wood and weather conditions, but might have learned to use spears and javelins as throwing weapons instead.

Later, both might branch to the other.

The same with warriors - Allanaki warriors might be better with dual wielding and not get shield use until they branch while Northern warriors might get two-hand / shield use and branch the other skills later.

This might actually mean the players would be more likely to follow cultural documents and would represent the reality that certain styles would be more popular (and thus easier to find teachers) in certain places.

[Tlaloc]

Not sure if you knew this, but PCs already get different sets of skills, based on starting location. It isn't guild-specific, but can tend to help in that direction.

[moab]

Welp, I admit to not apping a northern character in a very long time.  :-D

[LoD]

I made a northern assassin once and instead of "backstab" I had "subtle backstab" and "fake smile".

>fake smile green
You glance over toward a tall, green-eyed man and offer a pleasant smile.

>subtle backstab green
You place an arm around a tall, green-eyed man's shoulder in comraderie, his eyes suddenly bulging as your slender dirk slips up beneath his ribs.
The tall, green-eyed man crumples to the ground.
The tall, green-eyed man cries out in pain.

(kidding, of course)

-LoD

[Angela Christine]

This would be good for Merchants too.  The starting skills for merchants are fine if you start in Tuluk, but are somewhat awkward if you start in the south.  It isn't impossible for a southern merchant to branch out his skills, but it is likely to require more money or a good deal more personal peril than it would in the north.  Of course you can always try to leapfrog over the awkward crafts by choosing a crafting subguild, but I don't know if that would actually work.


It wouldn't be a trivial undertaking though.  It isn't just a matter of changing a few starting skills, but also of re-organizing the entire skill trees of the guilds involved.

For example, if southern rangers don't start with archery, do they branch it later?  What about the skills (if any) that are set to branch off of archery, do they now branch off throw are they lost, replaced, or moved deeper in the skill tree?   Re-arranging a merchant's skill tree would be even more complicated.  




It may not be necessary.  Archery also includes the use of slings, slings are cheap and easily obtained nearly everywhere, and the ammunition is inexpensive or even free.  PCs aren't that keen on slings, and I think that is partly for code reasons, but slings are probably more popular among the vNPC population than they are among PCs.  You wouldn't want to be flicking stones at a mek, it might get annoyed if it noticed, but they work just fine for braining jozhals and other small game.  Just something to consider if you are playing a southern archer and can't get a steady supply of arrows.



Angela Christine

[rishenko]

I would like to see differences in crafted items depending on starting location.  

For instance, Allanak would have spartan, utilitarian weapons in their list of craftable items while Tuluki weaponcrafters would have access to blades with various etched designs or beautifully headed pommels.  The only way to learn the crafting of another city is either by analyzing the opposing city's blade/clothing item/tool or by tutoring under a merchant from the other city.  Then, once you have the knowledge of both cities, you would get access to a rather short list of craftable items that combine the fashions or utility of either city.

Now, moving from weapons, how about clothing?  Being able to make Tuluki versus Allanaki versus Luir's versus Blackwing clothing, armor, tools, etc.  

Granted, this would take a lot of work and submissions from people to pull off, but I think it would provide a rich, in-depth cultural difference between things made in the north and those in the south.

[moab]

The only issue I would have with crafting item skills being different for different starting locations is that if Tuluk gets these ornate pieces and Allanak these utilitarian pieces, I would want the southern items to be able to stand on their own merit.

I hate the whole Tuluk gets all the cool stuff like - culture - while the south is shafted.

[LauraMars]

I hate the whole Tuluk gets all the cool stuff like - culture - while the south is shafted.

Slight derail here: I think Allanak has just as much culture as the north, it just isn't recognizable as such to our "civilized" minds.  Tuluk has traditions we more generally accept as cultural, that's all.

Allanak has plenty of culture, in fact, I get a "feel" for Allanak when I'm there more than I do in Tuluk.  Culture in Allanak is disguised as fear, dust, arrogence, and monsters.

[Malifaxis]

The main reason I don't play northerners is because I can't deal with the fact that if you go out and type 'hug tree' there is no coded result.

[Rindan]

I don't think the two cities are so different that they should have different starting skills.  That said, I could see different starting bonuses.  A 'nakki warrior might have a little boost to duel wield, while a Tuluki warrior might have a little bonus to shield use.  I little boost might show a bias towards certain styles.  I wouldn't make it a big bonus, but a little something wouldn't hurt.

The only real exception to this might be merchants.  Allanaki merchants really do get the shit end of the stick, though I suppose this has more to do with OOC reason that there are very few hunters and few NPCs with hides in 'nak.

[Moofassa]

The only difference I would make a point of noting would be: Crafters up north would have a higher starting skill making wooden items, whereas southerners would have a higher skill with obsidian.

Etc.

[Maybe42or54]

Personally, when I was a merchant in the south, I was shafted. I could use 1 of my skills enough to call it a "job."
Crafters up north should get wood working and southerners should get stone working. Not bonuses.

[X-D]

I have nothing against the idea for merchant guild to start with wood north, stone south. The only problem with it at all is the fact you pick in the hall of kings. I guess it could be coded the same way accents are, but what about people who start in luirs?

[Manhattan]

I think 'nakis get shafted in general.

The Vrun Driath is desolate and what little animals that roam it are gigantic monsters. Hunters - 0

There is no wood in the Southlands. No feathers. Expensive skins, which only come from this ONE guy named Marmalek. What the fuck can you craft from salt-cubes--table salt? Rocks foraged are only good for slings.  Crafters -0

Just a bunch of sweaty, unprofitable Southern mongers, dependent on Gol Krathu, like suckling on momma's teat.  'nakkis are a good breed of independent rougnecks. What the hell's going on with this perverted system!

Total 'nakki points:
0


Whereas, the Tulukis loll in their massive heaps of materials and craftable resources.

Total Tuluki points:
100

Proposed solution: BALANCE materials offered in the North and the South.  It's more of a playability issue.

[The Anonymous Kank]

Rocks foraged are only good for slings.

Not true.

I'll admit it's difficult to get going in the south, but once you've learned a few things it's possible to eke out an existence as an independent.

[Tlaloc]

The main reason I don't play northerners is because I can't deal with the fact that if you go out and type 'hug tree' there is no coded result.

I'll get to working on this asap, Mal.

Edited to add:

As I said, some of what people have posted is already in effect, using the exact same system that grants accents. Thats not to say you guys can't keep posting ideas - quite the opposite. I like the idea of giving crafters/merchants different skillsets when they start the game, based on starting location. However, I forsee that could be a bit more complicated to do for various reasons.

Certainly not impossible, though.

I liked the idea about having different 'craftable' items, from a northern or southern perspective. I'm not certain how easy it will be to create craftable 'flava', culturally, other than to send in submissions for items you think would be appropriate. I personally think that this should be something that is ICly driven on the part of the crafters and artisans in-game: if you're a Norther crafter, take northern sensibilities into the things you craft. Don't just craft 'a simple chest', when you can craft a 'an ornately carved chest'.

Southern crafters might be just the opposite.

[Angela Christine]

I have nothing against the idea for merchant guild to start with wood north, stone south. The only problem with it at all is the fact you pick in the hall of kings. I guess it could be coded the same way accents are, but what about people who start in luirs?

It could be handled the same way as elves, turn it into two guilds.  If he chooses Northern Merchant and then points to Allanak, well, he's an idiot and it serves he right if he can't figure out where to get wood.  I suppose a min-maxer type might chose Southern Merchant and Woodworker and then point to Tuluk to try to beat the system.  Hmm.  

Maybe if you choose Northern Merchant your hometown choices are automatically limited to Tuluk and Luir's, while if you choose Southern Merchant your hometown choices are Luir's, Allanak, *Labyrinth, or Red Storm.  Tribes would have to be handled separately, with most southern or tablelands tribes getting only Southern Merchant, most northern tribes getting only Northern Merchant, and a few nomadic 'central' tribes getting access to both.


It might not really be necessary.  It isn't impossible for a nakki merchant to get his grubby little hands on wood, just much more difficult than it would be for a northern merchant.  Heck, if you get desperate you could probably hire the Byn to take you to a lumber-rich area and help you haul home enough wood to fill your apartment.  Ok, you'd have to stretch a bit to think of a good RP reason for your character to do that, but I'm sure most people could come up with something.



Angela Christine

*Or Labyrinth merchant could be a third guild, starting with the crafts: Cooking, Shank-crafting and Rat-crafting.  Shank crafting would be much like knife crafting, but not as nice and would depend on crap, er, materials easily found in the 'rinth (would branch to knife crafting).  Rat crafting would be a special labyrinth-only craft that would make a variety of things (food, clothing, weapons, jewelry, etc.) that are all made out of the corpses of rats.  The rat crafting skill would give you a huge bonus to skinning, but only when skinning rats -- no one but a rat crafter can harvest rat kidneys, with which to make their famous Rat Steak and Kidney Pie (which takes more rat kidneys than any sane person would want, since rat kidneys are roughly the size, shape and color of kidney beans).  You get rats everywhere of course, but only in the 'rinth are they valuable enough to have an entire school of crafting devoted to them.  

[Maybe42or54]

Tribes would have to be handled separately, with most southern or tablelands tribes getting only Southern Merchant, most northern tribes getting only Northern Merchant, and a few nomadic 'central' tribes getting access to both.

Only part I didn't agree with.
Each tribe is very different and would have very different needs, or wants.

So one may want to be northern merchant, while another down the canyon would want southern merchant.

[Angela Christine]

Only part I didn't agree with.
Each tribe is very different and would have very different needs, or wants.

So one may want to be northern merchant, while another down the canyon would want southern merchant.

That is true.

However, I see the main difference between N-merchants and S-merchants being the order in which crafting skills are obtained, both guilds would have the potential to eventually develop all the crafts that Merchants now have.  N-merchants would probably be identical to the current Merchant guild, but S-merchants would have their craft tree rearranged so that they don't encounter skills that require geographically rare items until they are more established (an established merchant can more easily find a way to acquire materials that are rare in one area but common in another).

The basic geographical problem for merchants (and to some extent rangers or archers as well) is the distribution of wood.  Salt, obsidian and a few other things are common in some areas and rare in others, but generally a lack of salt or obsidian isn't a barrier to progress.  The lack of wood can be a significant barrier for newbie merchants.  Newbie merchants start with only a few crafts, one of them requires access to wood and the other is very difficult to pursue without a supply of wood.  A newbie merchant is ill equipped to travel alone from Red Storm or Allanak to any of the areas where wood is easily available (it is a bit of stretch even from Luirs, but not impossible).  A newbie merchant doesn't have enough money simply buy enough wood either.  How much wood is enough? Enough wood to cause the wood-requiring skills to branch.  Oddly enough, the crafts that require wood eventually branch to skills that DO NOT require wood.  Later on there may be other skills for which wood is required again (for example: it is probably hard to build a wagon without any wood at all) but that doesn't bother me because by the time you reach deep into the skill tree you can make enough money to solve problems like that.  My concern is only for newbie merchants -- after all, some newbie merchants are also newbie players, and they have no way to know that it is much more difficult to get started as a merchant in Allanak than in Tuluk.


So in regard to your (42's) original point about tribal merchants, the only real question is whether that tribe does or does not have relatively easy access to woodlands.  If they do, the current or "northern" version of merchant will work just fine for them.  If they do not, then the current version of the guild will present problems.


In my vision the southern merchant skill tree would contain all of the same skills as the northern version, they would simply be in a slightly different order.  The two starting skills that rely on wood would be replaced as starting skills by two which don't require wood, the rest of the skill tree (including the two woody skills) would be re-shuffled to branch in a logical order from the new starting skills.  

An equally good solution would be to keep one Merchant guild, but re-shuffle the craft skills so that there is no geographic advantages or disadvantages in the starting crafts.  Crafts were introduced during the occupation of Tuluk, a time when it was easier for a southerner to come up with an excuse to visit Tuluk for a few weeks (long enough to branch past the wood-requiring skills and then go home).  Now you not only face the threats of travel, but also the OOC stigma associated with people who travel between the north and south, because you aren't just traveling anymore, you are also visiting the enemy, and you ought to have a good reason to spend that much time in enemy territory or you are a bad roleplayer.


Suggestions for new starting skills:  

Cloth working:  The materials are not foragable, so there is no significant geographic disadvantage.  (May disadvantage tribal merchants if they have no source of cloth and are culturally banned from visiting any market that sells cloth.  This limitation won't affect most PC tribals now, but could be awkward if there are ever gith or halfling merchants).

Bandage making:  Like cloth working, some of the basic materials are not foragable (ie. the cloth) so there is little geographic disadvantage.

Feather working:  Feathers are difficult to find in the wild in some areas, but if you are willing to buy them they are available nearly everywhere, and are usually inexpensive.

Knife making: You can find the bits of stone needed to make your basic stone age knife practically everywhere.

Leather working:  The materials can be found or bought everywhere.  A little bit hard for most merchants to acquire if they aren't willing to buy them though, since merchants tend to make lousy hunters.

Rope making:  It may be easier and cheaper to pursue in some areas, but according to the help file it can also be done with materials like leather that are not geographically dependant.

Stone crafting:  You get some kind of stone everywhere.

Tool making:  Wood may be useful, but not required.

Instrument making and jewelery making are also possibilities, but they are usually seen as cash cow crafts and highly skilled, so they may not be appropriate for newbie merchants.

Merchant starting in resource rich areas like the Grey Forrest or the grasslands would still have a somewhat easier time and more flexibility, but it would go a long way to way to making the guild more playable for southern characters.


Angela Christine

[Cenghiz]

Err... Let me add one thing.. I do not know why, but the only place selling feathers in Tuluk, where the most species having feathers live, stopped selling feathers.
I didn't have means to check, but the situation is even funnier if Allanak still has his feather-seller.

I wish the feather seller came back, because hunters tend to..

a. Junk the feather.. It's so cheap to carry.
b. Use it themselves on fletchery.

Double the difficulty rating for folks like me, who usually play in deserted hours.
And again double the difficulty rating, because fletchery is way too painful to become good.
Why not double it once more, because normally arrows were the best starting goods to sell to people.. They were easily purchased. Not many folks want chests and chairs, but a lot of folks want arrows. Not being able to make arrows diminishes the poor merchants' changes to interact.
....
Double the difficulty rating one last time, because I want you to do so..