Psi Emote

[Folker]

Greetings.

I dont know if this idea has been proposed before, odds are it was, because it's so damn fantastic and ... stuff.

Basically, allow an ability to send through an emote through the way. It would be in a fashion of a fleeting image. The way it is fleshed out would normally be different then a regular emote though

So it wouldnt be like this.
psiemote frowns.
Your way contact gets "you get a sudden mental image of SoandSo frowns"

But if you'll do something like
psiemote frowning.
Your way contact gets "you get a sudden mental image of SoandSo frowning"  

Obviously the emotions can be more advanced then single words, but they'll work as an example. Yes, yes. I know that currently such a thing is already used. People just put them into parenthesis alongside with the regular psi text. But it's just not as fun

[Larrath]

I don't really think people should be sending mental images of themselves frowning and what-not over Psi.
I limit my psionic emoting to the general tone of the thoughts, or any emotions that might bleed through with the thoughts.

With that said, a guideline and a system for these emotes would be great.

[spawnloser]

Um...I think images were once said to be a no-no.

[Angela Christine]

With that said, a guideline and a system for these emotes would be great.

I agree.  I think images and stuff are supposed to be beyond the ken of the average way-user, more something that mindbenders are supposed to do.  But some quite well played characters have used the () emotes and imagery, which makes things confusing.  Clear documentation would be handy.


Angela Christine

[Naiona]

Sending images via psionics is a dangerous thing hinting at forbidden talents and could earn you an in-depth interview with your local templarate.

We have come a long way with the depth of our roleplay and emoting.  I agree that a more clear document on the common use of psionics might be helpful.  Unfortunately, I think staff is all pretty swamped right now, but fear not!  If someone would like to send me a draft document I will be happy to review it and submit it to the powers that be if it is comprehensive.  Send your draft to naiona@ginka.armageddon.org.

[X-D]

Sending images via psionics is a dangerous thing hinting at forbidden talents and could earn you an in-depth interview with your local templarate.

This is something I always wonder about. The docs are rather unclear on the actual mechanics of the way. But, it -is- mind to mind communication.

Now, the question then is, are you sending and receiving words or thoughts? There is a difference. One need not think in words, often, I know I do not.

Also, even without working on forbiddon uses of the skill, contact, use of the way is still a skill, a person gets better at it over time, one could say that the increase in skill shows as a simply more solid/powerful link. And with this more powerful link, would it not be easier to send actual thoughts, images, feelings? And why would anybody, in a world full of psionics think it is something forbidden? I'd argue more to show why, but that would mean dealing in actual or possible/probable mindbender skills, and I know that is not allowed.

I have no problem with feelings and mental images being sent, it is mind to mind contact after all, and a normal user of the way probobly would not have the skill needed to keep these hidden anyway, hell, myself, I'd be more suspicious of the ones with enough control to keep emotions and thoughts hidden while using the way.

(edit in afterthought)
Actually, since the way crosses language barriers AND there are sentient races that you cannot contact *its mind is to foreign to you*, It has to be thoughts you are sending anyway, not words. Which means images, concepts etc in a non-verbal non-language format. Unfortunatly, in a text game with humans playing, there is no way to actually show this in code, you have to type your comunications in word form.

[Folker]

I agree. What exactly are we relaying through the way? It's not dry strings of text, it's ... thoughts that we're relaying. And thoughts overral is not at all a series of words. It's a whole string of images, associations, past experiences, traumas, and so on. In a way it is the pinnacle of communication, because words and body language are simply a pale attempt at relaying our real thoughts. It's kind of ... boring to be honest, to assume that thought communication is in the same dimension as words.

And theoretically, if we're able to send through information to other minds via words, we should have absolutely no reason why cant we relay images, it's all the same information no ? Now when it comes to subverting other's thought processes and bending them to your will, that's another story for it doesnt deal with relaying what's in your mind, but manipulating what is on the mind of another.

[LauraMars]

Actually, since the way crosses language barriers AND there are sentient races that you cannot contact *its mind is to foreign to you*, It has to be thoughts you are sending anyway, not words. Which means images, concepts etc in a non-verbal non-language format. Unfortunatly, in a text game with humans playing, there is no way to actually show this in code, you have to type your comunications in word form.

But I'd submit that you are indeed sending words.  Words that cross a language barrier and are part of a sort of universal mindspeak language that nearly every race can understand.  I think emotions and concepts would play a part in communicating, but images, eh.  The Way is a form of communication; it is not your own thoughts.

For one thing, you might -think- in images, but you mindspeak in words.  If I had mild psionic powers, I don't think I could send images.  To do so is to exert an unlikely amount of control over your partner's own mind.

Thinking in your own head is something you have power over.  Thinking in someone else's head you have no power over.  You're just talking to their brain.  That, I believe, is part of why we "suffer" from the use of the Way.  We're trying so hard to get some coherant thought across the pipe instead of a jumble of images and thoughts that wouldn't go through or make sense.

[X-D]

LauraMars, To your post, I simply have to quote an old saying.

"A picture is worth a thousand words"

The simplest form of comunication is images, What else could your "universal mindspeak" Be?

The first forms of written language were in -fact- pictures.

In game the race with the oldest known written language uses basicly pictures, hiroglyphs.

Just because we have to type words onto the screen when using the way does not mean we are in fact speaking to the other persons mind.

You are -thinking- to the other persons mind. And "thoughts" are images, experiances, concepts, emotions and more.

(edit)
Even today, IRL language barriers are routinely crossed by the use of pictures, look at walk/don't walk lights now, most use images. Look at the controls on your car, little picture of a fuel pump or something near the fual gauge, little picture of windshield wipers on your wiper control, little picture of a horn where your horn is.

Deer/animal crossing signs on the road actually have a little picture of a jumping deer, the sign on a truck and other things for caustic chemicals is a picture of hand with a big dent in it and little drips falling into the dent.
On the side of your Ipod a little picture of headphones next to the headphone jack, etc etc etc.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm a little fuzzy on pre-historic linguistics... but I'm pretty sure man learned to speak before he learned to draw pictures.  :roll:

[Folker]

I'm a little fuzzy on pre-historic linguistics... but I'm pretty sure man learned to speak before he learned to draw pictures.  :roll:

Um, actually ... I doubt that's true. Maybe they learned to emit sounds before gaining the motor ability and coherence of mind to draw then antelopes on the walls of a cave with a piece of burnt wood, but whether or not they learned how to communicate with each other before learning how to draw is still a question no one has an answer for.

What is the point you're trying to make anyway?

[Boggis]

X-D, if they Way is what you say then type in images, experiences and emotions not words if you want to remain true to the medium you believe it to be. The usage of explicit terms, grammer, etc. allows us to convey exact meanings quickly and precisely. If its a jumble of various things then that should be conveyed in psionic messages in my opinion. All of the things you mentioned can be pretty subjective and open to various intepretations. Similar images can have wildly different meanings across different cultures IRL but the Way in Zalanthas is absolutely universal. I'm leaning towards a more universal mind language.

[X-D]

And what do you mean by man?

Pre-homosapians drew pictures, This includes but not restricted to Cro-magnan and neandertal (probly both spelled wrong)

We don't know why they did, but who says they were only art, they could have been primitive cross language comunications, maybe even cross species since some of them existed at the same time.

And Boggis, Heh, here is the clincher.

Your mind iterprets everything you experiance, The messages sent from your eyes to your brain are decoded and interpreted, same for every other sense.

Language is a code, speaking such, you speak, others ears detect the sound (vibrations) Then send signals to the brain which decode them and the mind interprets the coded messages known as speech and associates the coded forms to known patterns and concepts, and even then, definitions are anot always the same or exact.

I submit that the "universal mind language" is in -fact- Nothing but images/emotions sent from one mind to another and that it is the mind of the receiver that decodes these strings into a form it understands.
Hence, again the *foreign* Minds, these minds think in a manner that is completly different then the humonoids mammal types this means that all the humanoids have basicly the same thinking patterns *no matter what culture/race*

Its funny to me that people bring up something "universal mind language" Without any thought at all to what exactly it could be or how it could work.

Fact is, such a thing really -would- be exactly what they are arguing against. How do you teach somebody a new word and definition in a language they do not know, and neither of you speak the same language?
In game, 100% of the time (if the way is not used) it is imagery. Somebody emotes holding up a ginka fruit (image) and points to it then speaks a word, the other learns an association now, this word equals ginka fruit.

[Marauder Moe]

My point was that I don't believe visual communication is more basic/primal/fundimental then verbal communication.  Physiologically speaking, our brains are hard-wired for speach, not for writing or drawing.  That's why babies babble instead of looking for things to smear in meaningful patterns.  That's why we learn to talk before we learn to write.

I think with words.  I believe most people do.  People with certain types of autism may think purely in pictures and feelings.  Obviously I can't get inside anyone's head and prove it one way or another, though.

My science-fiction take on the Way is that when you speak to someone with it, you're telepathically taking control of the speach centers of their brain and using them to form the mental words of your message.

[Jherlen]

I view the Way as a psionic telephone. You can hear the other person's words (thoughts). You might be able to get some feel of their emotions through it, the same way you can tell if someone is happy, sad, excited, hesitant, etc. when they talk to you.

I don't think your average Joe non-mindbender could do more than that. I think too many people take using the Way to be something easy. It isn't, it's supposed to be draining just to send simple thoughts. So I don't like the idea that you could send someone images or complex things like singing them music in their head.

Unless a doc or some sort of staff word were laid down, I'd avoid this.

[marko]

I submit that the "universal mind language" is in -fact- Nothing but images/emotions sent from one mind to another and that it is the mind of the receiver that decodes these strings into a form it understands.
Hence, again the *foreign* Minds, these minds think in a manner that is completly different then the humonoids mammal types this means that all the humanoids have basicly the same thinking patterns *no matter what culture/race*

Its funny to me that people bring up something "universal mind language" Without any thought at all to what exactly it could be or how it could work.

What about the blind?

I'm curious.  

I'd like to see this hypothesis expanded a bit more - I'm liking it for the most part.  I believe mindspeak is a series of emotions, impressions, and thoughts.  hah.  Isn't that the ultimate cop-out?

What are you sending?

Why, I'm sending thoughts.

What are thoughts?

The things I'm sending....

Still, I would assume that it is the inner-voice and conscious aspect of a thought process that we are linked with.  

Sending defined images across the way speaks of greater abilities and powers.  I would imagine anyone could do it with a lot of effort but it shouldn't be an everyday type thing to do.

[X-D]

My science-fiction take on the Way is that when you speak to someone with it, you're telepathically taking control of the speach centers of their brain and using them to form the mental words of your message.

Now, that would be mindbending.


TEMPLAR!!!
We are not talking about drawing, that is a moter skill, heh, same as writing, no, we are talking about wether images are basic comunication, and they -are- the most basic, vision and images are nearly the first thing a forming brain learns to uncode.

And Moe, do the research, it is -proven- then visual cues are older and more basic then auditory.

Humans at least are visual, A baby, long before it can speak can understand signals, facial expressions and more. I watched a show, I think it was Nova (big fan), they placed a baby, just barely crawling age on a glass table, but the table looked like it ended (big step under the glass) The placed the baby before the step and the mother across the table. If the mother sat without expression or a smile, the baby would crawl to her every time, ignoring the large seeming fall.

The mother would then smile, the baby would begin moving, the mother would frown, make a face of being frightened or upset, the baby would stop, then the baby would -look- around, baby then starts crawling again, mother frowns, baby stops, in a matter of a couple tries, baby will stop on its own near the seeming step, and then later at a real step and without the mother even there. So, through visual cues and imagery, the baby has learned at least that there is something wrong with proceeding, and this is *months* Before the babies speech patterns even begin to develop.

Fact, body language (visual cues and imagery again) Are important and powerful even on a subconsious and primative level) Researchers say that your primitive brain notices things as small as pupil dilation, blood flow to lips and more in a prospective sexual partner. Your body has automatic -visual- cues, people blush, people turn pale, so many things, and none of them are auditory, ALL auditory comunication except for 1 is learned.  And that 1 is a babies cry, it is automatic, but the baby does not know why it cries, and the other humans about have -learned- what that cry is.

So, believe what you wish, but research shows otherwise...but then, maybe your opinion is more firmly based on fact then the science and research of thousands of learned people...shrug.

(edit for marko)
That is actually one of the problems Marko, I have to assume that thoughts themselves are automatic in nature and that the interpratation of them by even other minds would also be.

What exactly is thinking...shrug, I do not know, I feel that most likley every person IRL thinks in a unique manner but using the exact same basic systems as every body else.

People think that they think in words, but do you really? Then, if that is the case, you did not think for your first 6-14 months? The time you did not know words? No, you think often in association of words and learned definitions, but you do not think in words, you can't, words themselves are sound, period, even writing is not words, but a code that you learn to associate with words and these words you associate with ideas, definitions.

[Tlaloc]

If any of you have ever read 'ElfQuest', I think the way the elves use 'sending' is a perfect example of how the contact skill/psi works in game. Regardless of how people evolved, it is a linguistically-based ability. Does it surpass language barriers, regardless of this? Yes. Does this mean you can send people mental images of your glowing, crackling avatar-self?

Yes, and no. No I don't really think its that realistic to delve too far into sending people freaky emotions or mental images. The Unseen Way is hard. Just because you -can- do something doesn't mean you -should-. However, as Naiona stated, if you do, I wouldn't be surprised if your victim tattles on you for being a psioncist, and you suddenly find your PCs brain inhabiting a jar on a Templars desk somewhere.

[X-D]

In reply to Tlaloc

Never read elfquest, probly never will.

But agree basicly on the, "just because you can, does not mean you should"

My chars rarely if ever send complex images with the way, but mostly because I think that the way uses more basic imagery for comunication, But also, well, who wants templars questioning them?
Do send mild and basic feelings though, nothing strong, unless the emotional state truly warrents it. In cases of extreme hatred and stuff, he might not be able to do more then send that feeling. Because the emotions are too strong for him to concentrate enough to send other more refined messages. Nor does he have the control of a mindbender to do so.

Oh, and to be on topic, Hhhmm, psimote, no, I don't think so, but, an added argument to psi like say/talk/ tell etc...maybe...not sure, personaly think, nothing wrong with simply using current methods.

psi *mild mirth* Yes, lord templar hardnose does look just a bit silly in that tregil carved breastplate.

[Boggis]

If it wasn't linguistically based I don't see how you could way somebody with the following, "Hey, have you seen Lord Templar Mentalist since that senate meeting on Ocandra?". Names would be impossible to convey if actual words weren't transmitted over the link (amongst numerous other things). If it was only images / emotions the best you could do would be to transmit an image of their face. Abstract concepts like names just don't turn into images / emotions unless we suddenly start playing charades in our head... three syllables, alright.. *image of a group of men*, *image of thank you.. getting squashed*, *image of a group of written items* Aha! Mentalist!

[Marauder Moe]

My science-fiction take on the Way is that when you speak to someone with it, you're telepathically taking control of the speach centers of their brain and using them to form the mental words of your message.

Now, that would be mindbending.

Perhaps "influencing" would have been a better word.  I don't mean to imply anything forceful.  Maybe just a Zalanthan sentient's speach centers are receptive to telepathic signals and convert them to their native language.

And Moe, do the research, it is -proven- then visual cues are older and more basic then auditory.

Nonverbal communication (edit for clarity: body language and physiological cues) is different from written or pictographic communication.  I bet if those same baby experiments were done with smiley-face and frowny-face pictures instead of the babies mother, the results would be different.  I suppose I'm getting off-topic, though.

[Lazloth]

Your mind iterprets everything you experiance, The messages sent from your eyes to your brain are decoded and interpreted, same for every other sense.
...
Language is a code, speaking such, you speak, others ears detect the sound (vibrations) Then send signals to the brain which decode them and the mind interprets the coded messages known as speech and associates the coded forms to known patterns and concepts, and even then, definitions are anot always the same or exact.
...
I submit that the "universal mind language" is in -fact- Nothing but images/emotions sent from one mind to another and that it is the mind of the receiver that decodes these strings into a form it understands.

Specifically in synch with this argument, I'd speculate that psi-communication does not rely on decoding of semiotic images.  There's certainly something (emotive) but I don't think it's words, and I don't think it's images.

[Folker]

I fear you're overanalyzing things. You might be correct, but on our medium we're able to relay only things that can be accurately described by text. We cannot easilly speak in association-tongue. But we certainly can flesh out an image or a feeling via written speech and written emotion.

[jhunter]

If it's supposed to be linguistically based then it shouldn't get past language barriers IMO. That would then make no sense whatsoever.
I've always pictured it as a combination of emotions, images, and words. That seems far more realistic to me and allows for a bit more creativity in my RP than saying I'm limited to words only.
If I'm limited to words only then those who cannot understand my language wouldn't understand what I'm sending them.

[Rindan]

If it's supposed to be linguistically based then it shouldn't get past language barriers IMO. That would then make no sense whatsoever.
I've always pictured it as a combination of emotions, images, and words. That seems far more realistic to me and allows for a bit more creativity in my RP than saying I'm limited to words only.
If I'm limited to words only then those who cannot understand my language wouldn't understand what I'm sending them.

It is the unseen way.  I don't think realistic or not has much to do with.  How does it pass language barriers?  It just does.  It is a magikal psychic force.  Are we really going to argue how made up telepathy should realistically work?  

If you are dying for an explanation, then the magical part of the brain that operates the Unseen Way also has a built in universal decoder.  The way messages are translated into a universal language as they leave, they are then sent to the receiver, than the receiver's head recodes the universal message to his own language.

Hurray, an explanation.