World Interaction - 1 of 4 (Tribes)

[LoD]

World Interaction – 1 of 4 (Tribes)

The last few years have given rise to some changes in Armageddon's code, administration and policy that I wanted to discuss with both the players and Staff.  These changes have almost all been for the better, yet I see a few issues that are potentially dangerous as trends, and I am interested to hear the observations and views of others.

:arrow: The player base has become diluted by too many tribal clans.[/b]

Tribal Clans

The number of coded and available human and elven tribes has significantly increased over the last few years, allowing for many new additions.  While this adds some variety and a chance to flesh out and pursue a new tribal unit, I believe that it begins to erode some of the benefits provided by having (2) major tribes; one elf, one human.

Years ago, there were (2) main tribes for players; the Blackwing (elves) and the Tan Muark (human).  Both of these clans were well documented and developed through many generations of characters.  They were as different from one another as one could hope, and these differences provided a great background for conflict, trade and other forms of interaction between them.  While player created clans popped would pop up now and again by pockets of players trying something new, there was a stable and definite presence by these two tribes that provided many benefits to the player base.

> Violent (conflicts of interest) and non-violent (trade) interaction between tribals.
> Peoples with respectable resources that did not depend or owe loyalty to a city.
> Stable player bases due to the lack of competition in other non-city tribes/clans.
> Chance for good elven/human tribal similarities and differences to manifest.
> Unique cultures and goods to trade between the two major population centers.

The territories of each group were well defined, almost seeming like entire worlds unto themselves.  This allowed each clan to develop without the direct need for interaction, even though geography, access to resources and travel lanes would often force the subject.  With two distinct, well documented and purposeful clans in the game comes a great vehicle for plot generation and plot involvement at many levels.

Current Issues

It feels now as if there have been so many tribes introduced into the game through the documentation (some player formed, others created by the Imm Staff), that meeting them is a lackluster and varied thing.  I rarely meet two PC's at a time from the same tribe, and the amount of options for PC's almost ensures that they will not develop into a presence capable of contributing a reliable and visible chapter to the story that benefits the most people.  I am sure that the level of RP within these tribes is wonderful, but this is partially an issue of playability and maximizing the level of interaction for the entire MUD.

The location of these two tribes used to create a perfect zone of tension that didn't need to rely on coded NPC's or mysterious sorcerers in order to feel dangerous and adventurous.  Blackwing, Luir's Outpost and the Tan Muark all shared a great amount of space that forced three very different cultures to interact and become involved with one another.  It also fostered an almost symbiotic relationship whereby any large scale events would directly affect all three clans, thus demand some form of interaction from each of them from three groups with very different morals, priorities and values.  To me, this relationship has all but deteriorated from the game in lieu of variety, which I don't feel it was a worthwhile exchange.

No other tribe in the game has made an impact on my characters the way the Tan Muark or Blackwing of old would.  Very rarely have I ever seen three members of another tribal clan consistently together, nor have I had their culture  imposed on me by their consistent presence and relationships with the other clans in the game.  There is a level of play which now feels absent from the game, replaced by many short-lived and inconsistent attempts to replicate a tribal culture, but without the same weight behind it and what you receive are weak attempts at interaction trying to navigate a (in terms of depth created by players) fledgling clan.

I am sure there will be some of you who respond with the notion that you have had some of your very best RP sessions in the company of a small isolated tribal clan, and feel that the game would miss their presence.  I don't doubt that, but my contention is that moving to the previous model would do more good than harm for both the game and tribal players.

Suggestions

> Choose to support one desert elf tribe in the tablelands.
> Choose to support one human tribe somewhere near Luir's Outpost.
> Examine the boundaries and roles of each to allow for conflict and trade with each other, as well as with non-tribals.
> Allow for nomads and other tribes to exist, but make the process to join these established and supported clans much easier.

While still being written, part 2 of 4 will address the same issue of the diluted player base with respect to the Great Merchant Houses and how changes in its administration could improve interaction, RP and fun on multiple levels.

-LoD

[Larrath]

World Interaction – 1 of 4 (Tribes)

While still being written, part 2 of 4 will address the same issue of the diluted player base with respect to the Great Merchant Houses and how changes in its administration could improve interaction, RP and fun on multiple levels.

I just got an sjanimal flashback.  Teehee.

I agree, though.  I believe that a tribe needs a lot of people in order to be interesting.  Less is more.

[Olgaris]

LoD if you spent half as much time trying to recruit players as you do formulating opinions about what is wrong with the game world, your problem would be solved.

Not to say you don't have some good points in there, but... sheesh.

[LoD]

LoD if you spent half as much time trying to recruit players as you do formulating opinions about what is wrong with the game world, your problem would be solved.

Not to say you don't have some good points in there, but... sheesh.

I'll give that ole recruitment thing a try, because I agree -- if we had 150-200 players online each night, this would be a moot point.  But we don't.  So it's not.  :wink:

-LoD

[bloodfromstone]

Pro tip: Don't introduce recruited players to the board until they're already addicted.

[Forest Junkie]

The player base has become diluted by too many tribal clans.

This statement is simply untrue and incredibly one-sided.

Years ago, there were (2) main tribes for players; the Blackwing (elves) and the Tan Muark (human).

Having only two tribes can become stale after a time. People want to try new things, new concepts. The Blackwing and Tan Muark both have specific mindsets that do not allow for as much free will in designing a concept for a pc as other tribes might. The concept if duality: ie Blackwing vs Tan Muark is stable, yet I'd personally hate only being allowed to play in Blackwing as a tribal elf, or the Tan Muark as a human.

Both of these clans were well documented and developed through many generations of characters.

So are the other player run clans/tribes and new staff sponsored tribes in the game. Be fair.

This allowed each clan to develop without the direct need for interaction, even though geography.

I thought you -wanted- more interaction? If there are only two tribes living "a world apart from each other", where's the clash? Where's the pc to pc interaction? The random "hi and bye" on the road is not what I would consider interaction.

With two distinct, well documented and purposeful clans in the game comes a great vehicle for plot generation and plot involvement at many levels

I played in one d.elf tribe before (Not Blackwing) who played a MAJOR role in an HRPT, helping drive the plots that led up to that event and after. Perhaps there are things going on behind the scenes you are not aware of.

I don't understand what's wrong about your meetings with tribal elves being "varied". Why is this bad? I find it rather neat to have several different tribes in game. This allows different, unique cultures to clash, and thereby creates tons of plots due to pvp interaction, either through trade or disagreements in their beliefs.

My response won't change your opinion; I'm sure of that. How about trying out one of those player run tribes or, perhaps, even one of the newer staff sponsored tribes/clans. Maybe then you can form a well balanced opinion, because at this point it seems as if you are taking an approach that is far too conservative in wanting to go back to the original "status quo". Think about the other countless players who actually enjoy the varied relations between numberous tribes. Maybe they don't want things to go back to the way they once were.

[spawnloser]

Personally...I would prefer NOT reducing it to one human and one elven tribal community.  I would prefer at least two of each, one pro-magick and one anti-magick.

[amoeba]

It feels now as if there have been so many tribes introduced into the game through the documentation (some player formed, others created by the Imm Staff), that meeting them is a lackluster and varied thing.

I would have to respectfully disagree.  I've been in the tribes when it was knee deep in delves and played when I was the only one around for days on end.  These things ebb and flow.  But through all of this the number of tribes has never bothered me.  In fact I enjoyed the different flavor of the tribes.  Often much of the strife and backstabbing was intertribal.  I think the documented tribes have a very rich background.  I would hate to see that lost for the dubious return of stuffing everyone onto one tribe.

When desert elves work best is when there are long lived characters that help to keep the traditions alive and direct the newcomers.  As with any other aspect of the game it is really about leadership and opportunity.

[Jherlen]

If it meant more interaction for the larger portion of the playerbase and more players around in the cities to get newbies involved and make them stick around, I would be all for reducing or eliminating the number of tribals.

[Angela Christine]

If it meant more interaction for the larger portion of the playerbase and more players around in the cities to get newbies involved and make them stick around, I would be all for reducing or eliminating the number of tribals.

The problem is that removing one type of role doesn't mean that those players will move to the new type of role you were hoping for.  Suppose that I love playing . . . say, half-giant sorcerers.  And a group says, "hey, there are too many half-giant sorcerers, and they don't interact much with the rest of the playerbase, lets get rid of them."  So half-giant sorcerers are eliminated.  So do all the players that enjoyed HG sorcerers go and become merchants and warriors, go and get city jobs and impress the newbies?  Some of them will, some of them may get angry and quit playing for a while, or go find another RP mud where half-giant sorcerer-type characters are available.

If you knock 20 players out of the kind of tribal roleplay they enjoy, maybe only 10 of them will switch over to city characters.  Is the game better to have 10 more city characters but 10 fewer characters overall?  I just don't know.




As for the proliferation of tribes, I'm not sure that was ever a goal, it is just a natural consequence of allowing tribal characters to not be in an established clan.  In other words, play a tribal character without a special application.  As soon as you can be an independent tribal with a virtual tribe, you get a proliferation of tribes.  Then, if the tribe is "successful", lasts a while and interacts with other people, more players want to join your virtual tribe.  The coded tribal encampments really just provide minimum support to semi-in dependant tribal characters.  

When I started playing I was interested in the Tan Muark, but the special or sponsored application process was daunting.  "Sponsored application," how do I get a sponsor?  I've had one special application and one or two sponsored roles, but honestly the process still seems too daunting to bother with.  So I've played tribal characters, but never played in the Tan Muark.

[bloodfromstone]

Down with tribals!

[Matrim]

I think LoD's main point is that we just don't have a large enough player base to run the dozens of tribes out there properly.  I'm sure they are all well thought out, rich in history, and serve their own purpose uniquely from one another, but for all of them to be successfully run, it would require a large portion of the game's player base.  I would love to see more playable clans, a larger world, and more centers of civilization, but unfortunately we lack the PC population needed to make that work.

I think there is definitely room for more than just two tribes out there(Blackwing/Tan Muark), but I think it should be regulated so that the Big Two have an active playerbase first, as with the other clans in Zalanthas that make the world we know the way it is.  Most application roles are already regulated in this way for the exact same reason--so that the percentage of PCs in those role reflect the ratio of their actual numbers in the world's overall population.  

I'm not saying I don't want to see change or new playable clans, hell, if somebody can take down those damn Blackwing i'll be thrilled, but I think the feel of the world is affected when a tribe of 30 elves have five active PCs playing in it while the Blackwing have none.  The imms have closed down many cool clans because they have felt the playerbase is spreading too thin.  I'm not saying any more clans should be closed down, but I think the numbers should be looked at when a player applies to play in one of the newly created clans.  I'm all for the emergence of new clans, especially PC created ones, but not at the expense of neglecting established clans just because we as players are bored and want to see new things.

Obviously the activity rates of all clans vary over time and go through highs and lows, but it seems like for some time now i've been seeing people from tribes i've never even heard of before, let alone am able to pronounce, having far more activity than the two tribes that (as far as I know) have the largest populations.

Now having said all that, I must admit I have very little experience playing tribals.  Maybe the Tan Muark and Blackwing are buzzing with activity, but just never get out much, and the player ratios are all good.  
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Okay, I just came back from the bathroom and realized how long this post is getting, and the worst part is I can't even remember what my point is, so I apologize but there will be no fancy conclusion to my post.  It's late, and i'm going to bed.  g'night!  

[Hot_Dancer]

Oohh.. I don't have a lot of time to comment but..

I do enjoy the the mix of tribes available, it appears at best you'll only have one or two doing well per period with a scant few greetings from a few solo runners making their attempts at bringing another of the supported tribes to speed. Which typically makes for some political throw away play among the tribes when they come into contact with eachother, but it atleast offers inter-tribal interaction to bring some interest to slower times in isolation. The tribe to tribe interaction with such a number of groups really helps give things more variety. I know I will always prefer roleplay with another local tribe over the encounters with outsiders.

Players -are- interested in having opportunities to play tribals, I know our group has been getting pretty surprising increases in size over the last couple of weeks to where we're consistantly having 3-4 elves on an evening. I mostly credit it to people hearing of the tribe's activity in game and jumping on the opportunity should they be shown the mantis head. With every clan in game you have to monitor how active they are at the time..and the flux within the tribes gives players a chance to sporadicly pump them into action. Even when the Blackwing were open (though I wasn't around for their glory days) it was a rare opportunity to join a desert elf tribe when it wasn't at idle.

Culture doesn't grow on trees though.. and even though the Blackwing were glorious: I doubt there's many active players of that era to revive that culture should it be brought back. A revival would probably just display them on the same level of crudeness among the tribes currently in game. A couple of the new tribes are going to become (hopefully) dominant in the years to come.. and see the most advancement in their culture and documentation. Then maybe you'll see another Blackwing-Tan Muark age.

Hot_Dancer

[Maybe42or54]

I have a limited view on Tribes, but they look to be set up a lot like the noble house clans with out many of the bonuses the noble clans gets.

You get more politics that make sense.
You have the grittiness of trying to keep your tribe fed.
You have goals you can work to.
Things you do affect the tribe.

On the other hand, you don't get free water, free food, free coins, you have to earn everything by hunting or trading.
If you piss off another tribe, your tribe might kill you to stop a war and save a lot of the tribes.

Besides, there are too many noble houses that need the same exact Pc.

[Morfeus]

I see a huge difference between tribes and Noble Houses. Even bigger difference that between Noble and Merchant Houses.

[Maybe42or54]

Besides the bankroll? They are very different, but alike in a lot of ways, which makes both fun.

[Boggis]

The player base has become diluted by too many tribal clans.[/b]

I'd say that the playerbase has become too diluted since the rise of Tuluk. I'm not bashing Tuluk. I like the place when I've played there but I remember the level of daily politicking and tension back in Allanak four years ago and I think this has been adversely affected by spreading the players out amongst the houses north and south - something which you're going to cover in a future post I think so I won't derail further.

Getting back to the tribal situation I'd guess that more or less the same proportion of the playerbase have always played tribals and the like. Thats what they enjoy to play in Arm just like I mainly play city-based characters. I remember seeing some numbers posted by the Imms a while back and the numbers playing tribals were not large compared to those playing in the two main cities so I'm not sure that consolidating the tribes would really affect the dilution of the playerbase.

I do agree with you though about how the quality of the tribal experience could be improved by limiting the number of tribal clans available in order to get more meaningful interactions with your clanmates, deeper inter-tribal RP, better interaction with worldwide plots, etc.

[LoD]

Thanks to those with the constructive posts.

Just a few points of clairification:

:arrow: Tribes don't need to be Blackwing and Tan Muark.[/i]

I simply mentioned that I think the game would benefit more from a 2 main tribal clans (one elf, one human) and there are other candidates.  I merely referenced these two older clans because they were both in a position that I am describing at one time and, thus, would be good candidates for it again.  I really wouldn't mind it being two different, but equally well developed and fleshed out clans.

:arrow: I'm not asking to limit player options, but encourage one over the other.[/i]

Some people have responded in a defensive manner, as if I am asking to strip away their rights to choose other tribal characters, and that's not the point.  I would like to see more people encouraged to join one of two (or perhaps 3-4 if there are enough players to serve) tribal clans to allow for both a deeper environment for the tribal PC's as well as a consistency that allows them to be a near constant source of interaction for the rest of the gameworld.

There were tons of small groups of players in pick-up tribes over the years when the Blackwing and Tan Muark were the largest, but they didn't have nearly the resources (Imm-wise or code-wise) that these two clans had, and so people naturally gravitated toward the ones that made life a bit easier to play day-to-day.

:arrow: Tribes should have some presence that travels often.[/i]

In the purest form of the game, it'd be perfectly acceptable to have many groups of people you would never see from what we call "civilization", however, this is a game that benefits much from interaction.  When the gypsies were first introduced to the game, I loved the concept because they were constantly travelling, interacting with all of the major population centers of the world and getting into the thick of things.  I've always been disappointed to see that aspect of their culture dwindle to hardly anything over the years and feel that something like it would be well received.

Desert elves may not enter the two major city-states as a group, but it'd be nice if a culture would have some section or group devoted to stealing..er...trading from the people there.  This allows characters to see that tribe, learn of it and then perhaps meet more of them when they travel outside of the city.  When it's almost always from the same clan, then you can begin to work them into your plots and gameplay because you know they are going to be a consistent presence, not a group of 3-4 players who are here "until the PC leader dies" and then disappears again for another few months before another group of players joins up.

Matrim has hit most of the main points I am tryng to get across, which is that the tribal clans available now are great, but we really just don't have the player base to support 4+ tribal clans and have all of them operate on a level of sophistication, depth and consistency that could be achieved by encouraging more people into joining 2-3 of the more unique ones.  I've enjoyed some interactions I've had with the Soh and wouldn't mind seeing them as one of these 2-3.  I can't say, however, that I've met a whole lot of Benjarri, Arabet, Seik, Silt Winds, Sunrunners, Leaping Sands, Akei Ta Var, Anyali or Jul Tavan that manage a consistent presence or convey a feel of why their tribe is different than the others.

It isn't that the tribes don't have unique qualities, rich histories or quality RP, it just doesn't have enough of a consistent presence to convey them t the degree they could if we were to shift the focus of play from many small clans to a few large ones.

-LoD

[Obsidian Lord]

I agree.  The playerbase is too spread out.  I've always thought we have had too many tribal groups and one to many cities (Tuluk).

A friend of mine was looking over the game and said "Why should I join, the last time I played I sat in a tavern for several hours and there was no one to RP with."

Our player base is low, this we know.  Sparse population in the sands is great, it does give that feeling of desolation, but in the cities and tribes there should be a larger number of players to interact with and breath life into the groups, factions and political processes.

Closing a majority of the tribes and leaving one well-defined elven tribe and one well defined human tribal (not gypsy, please) would create the energy that would create the culture that would create the conflict and history.

Addi tonally, closing an entire city (I should pray more, perhaps) would move all of the stress and tension of political and social maneuvering to one locale - it would be an adrenaline rush from the moment one logs in.

The current layout would be great for a base of 100 or so players, but we don't have that.  We have low to mid fifties on good nights.  I think we can only improve the game by restricting access to various clans.

All that being said, I would not restrict membership in the merchant houses at all - their styles are so diverse and the IG need to work with them (trade, employment, whatever) is so very important that these should be left as they are (just all their staff moved south).

[Rindan]

I play very few tribal characters personally, so I won't comment on the quality issue.  What does bother me a little is that we have a pile of imm supported tribes out in the isolated wastes that elves can just point to and become apart of.  On the other hand, there are no open city elf tribes with imm support that anyone can point to and join.  Certainly there are city elf tribes, but they are all either secret or closed.  

While letting people play in the wasteland is fine and all, I think that imm attention and focus should also be given to the major centers of civilization.  At the very least, I would like for there to be an open city elf tribe that doesn't require special application above and beyond what is required for desert elves.  Hell, make it karma 1 for all I care, just give the city elves a little support.

[Maybe42or54]

By moving all the nobles houses and merchant house pcs south, you are really hurting the people behind the Pcs. Bards in the south Aren't very supported.

Not counting the 'rinth.

There are 3 Noble (with templars included) clans, 1 mercenary ran clan, and 2 merchant houses in the south that want fighting PCs.
Redundancy kills.

For aides (including merchants), there are 4 Noble clans, 1 bastard noble-led clan, and 2 merchant houses.

Last I heard, those 4 noble houses require life service.

The problem isn't that there are too many tribal clans, it is that there isn't enough diversity within the cities with too many choices.

2 bars in allanak that commoners can frequent.
8 choices as to where they work.


As it looks "Tuluk attacks" is going to be a common saying pretty soon in the south. So closing Tuluk's nobility and houses could be very bad. Especially since they are getting a new templar.

[amoeba]

I agree.  The playerbase is too spread out.  I've always thought we have had too many tribal groups and one to many cities (Tuluk).

Same argument, different day. I call this the "field of dreams" effect.  Close it and they will come.  It is a niave approach and in truth can have a detrimental effect on the game population as a whole.  If it came to a point where there was one city state, one human tribe, and one desert elf tribe, I seriously doubt I would log in much. I doubt I am alone in this.  I look for different experiences when I play characters, one thing I enjoy about the desert elves is the variety of beliefs and traditions amoungst the differing tribes. If my choice was limited to one or two tribes, my experience would be diminished.

Our player base is low, this we know.  Sparse population in the sands is great, it does give that feeling of desolation, but in the cities and tribes there should be a larger number of players to interact with and breath life into the groups, factions and political processes.

Closing a majority of the tribes and leaving one well-defined elven tribe and one well defined human tribal (not gypsy, please) would create the energy that would create the culture that would create the conflict and history.

You folks are still ignoring one aspect of tribal life, that is intertribal conflict.  This is a large aspect of tribal life, not elves verses the cities.  Reducing the number of tribes to one or two, virtually eliminates this.  

In terms of numbers, I have seen large groups with nada to do for many people as a select clique cherry picks interesting plot lines.  I have also seen very small groups have a very rich and varied set of RP.   It's the quality of the players involved, not the quanity. Tribal/merchant/noble/city consolidation is not a panacea to the problems at hand.

One thing I will say is that there needs to be a sense of continuity in each of the tribes.  Roleplay and plots are driven off a collective experience.  For the tribal to get the full experience they need at least some interaction and direction from thier elders.  I have no problem if the elders are IMM driven, in some ways this is preferable as it keeps a continuity to the smaller groups.  I see too many delves running around without a good feeling for how they should act within the expectations of the tribe.  In this area more work needs to be done IMHO.   I do not however buy the arguement that less is more.

[Obsidian Lord]

You folks are still ignoring one aspect of tribal life, that is intertribal conflict.  This is a large aspect of tribal life, not elves verses the cities.  Reducing the number of tribes to one or two, virtually eliminates this.  

While by and large your post makes good points, it seems to hinge on this tribal conflict idea.

I ask you - what kind of conflict can you have if each tribe is made up of one or two players?

[Maybe42or54]

Trade. Confusion. Suspicion.

Now, I ask you- What kind of RP can you get from forcing more people into jobs that mainly consist of sparring and tavern sitting?

There is a lot.

[amoeba]

I ask you - what kind of conflict can you have if each tribe is made up of one or two players?

Been there done that quite well. It is too IC to go into details, but even a one two player tribe with the right mix can make for a very interesting experience.