Idea for hunter/crafter clans

[Jherlen]

This is sort of related to theebie's threads about "I'm a good hunter and my house is stocked full of materials, what do I do?" I wanted to make a new thread about it though because the idea is only tangentially related.

Anyway, while working in a merchant clan a while ago I had a half-baked idea about what to do about material surpluses and shortages, and how to keep hunters busy hunting a balanced selection of game and not just the toughest stuff that would up their skills. This also solves the problem of huge disorganized crafting halls where no one can ever find anything at the same time. Again I haven't thought this through all the way, but...

Suppose you added a 'shopkeeper' NPC to the merchant house clan compounds. This person could be an NPC in charge of inventory or something. He would buy and sell materials, but only to or from clanned PCs. He also would have no limits on how much inventory he could hold, and his stock would save across reboots and crashes.

This way, when a hunter PC returns from a hunt with a full load of hides and bones and chitin, he can take them to the inventory guy and sell it for however much the materials are worth to the House. (Probably for less money than you might get at a Bazaar merchant, to account for the fact the hunter is also being paid in food, water, lodging etc.) This would be how he makes his coins to go spend on booze.

Lets say that after Joe Hunter loads up the inventory with a bunch of crap, he dies to a bahamet. A while later Joe Crafter gets hired by the House. He can go into the materials storeroom and buy whatever materials he needs to craft with from the stock keeper at cheaper prices than if he had to buy them from a Bazaar merchant. Since all the materials are located on one shopkeeper the crafters don't need to go on scavenger hunts through 20 chests and trunks. (This also means clan leaders don't need to obsess about sorting crafting halls.)

If you wanted to get REALLY fancy, the npc stockkeeper's prices could be based on how much supply the House has of whatever item. If PC hunters have been bringing in a million duskhorn hides, the crafters can buy duskhorn hide for dirt cheap from their House since there's such a surplus. On the other hand, the hunters won't be paid as much for duskhorn hides, either.

If there are no PC hunters and the crafters have used up all the inventory PC hunters stored, the crafters could possibly still buy materials from the storage. The prices will just be higher than they would be if the hunters had kept adequate stock.

So what would this do? PC hunters are encouraged not to overhunt one type of beastie and ignore all the rest, because they'll be getting diminishing returns on their pay. PC crafters can still get materials to craft goods with even when there are no hunters in their clan. Both groups won't have to worry about overflowing, disorganized crafting halls. It also offers more incentive to the hunters to work and find rare materials the House will need, because they'll be paid for bringing them in. It might also make being a clanned hunter a little more attractive compared to being independent. And since this way there is always things for PC hunters to do (since crafting halls will never fill up), they may not run into theebie's problems. It also gives them a coded benefit they can see from their work.

Again, it's a half-baked idea, but I think it has potential to make things easier on everybody once set up, and reduce a lot of the overhead required to run merchant clans. Thoughts?

edited: for grammar/spelling

[ibusoe]

Love it.

[Morfeus]

Lets say that after Joe Hunter loads up the inventory with a bunch of crap, he dies to a bahamet. A while later Joe Crafter gets hired by the House. He can go into the materials storeroom and buy whatever materials he needs to craft with from the stock keeper at cheaper prices than if he had to buy them from a Bazaar merchant.

I see a problem with this. Joe Crafter is hired and paid to craft for the House. Why should he spend his payment for doing his work?

[Agent_137]

crafters probably would get the materials for free, and sell the end products to another house guy that manages the warehouse.

Then, the merchants would buy the end products from that guy for the "in house" price, and sell for profits.

Uurah!

[Jherlen]

Lets say that after Joe Hunter loads up the inventory with a bunch of crap, he dies to a bahamet. A while later Joe Crafter gets hired by the House. He can go into the materials storeroom and buy whatever materials he needs to craft with from the stock keeper at cheaper prices than if he had to buy them from a Bazaar merchant.

I see a problem with this. Joe Crafter is hired and paid to craft for the House. Why should he spend his payment for doing his work?

More accurately Joe Crafter is hired to produce finished products which the House can sell, not just perform the act of crafting. If he breaks the materials in an attempt to make stuff, at least the House has covered the cost of what it took to get them.

Crafters in general don't have ANY trouble making money, in my experience. A single finished product would probably cover the cost of three or four sets of raw materials right there. The amateur crafters would be doing a bit better than breaking even. The good ones would be making a fortune. And in this way, they're all accountable for what materials they take.

[Tamarin]

Crafters, generally speaking, are NOT the ones who sell the wares.  Therefore, it makes no sense that they spend their own coin to buy the materials from the house.  This would create a separation between the house and its employees, and that would fragment the operation.

The house would bring in enough supplies to account for crafters mucking things up.  And more often than not, the crafting attempt fails (at least RP-wise) because the material had some flaw in it.  Not because the crafted made a mistake.

[Delirium]

I love it.

Especially the part about not having to organize the clan halls as much or often.

And this seems like a great solution to the "why would we pay Joe hunter 500 obsidian a month if he only brings in 300 obsidian worth of things"?  It makes it far easier to track progress and reward.

[Dakurus]

I think Rindin's point in the other thread is something that should be included in any solution or suggestion of this regard.

To paraphrase, and probably poorly, since I don't have his/her comment up:
A system, which unfortunately includes today's system, shouldn't be created that will completely encourge someone who can put in a RL 12 hours as compared to someone who can put in a RL 2 hours.

Now, this probably should be a thread by itself, but it's effects are felt in many things. Sure, someone who spends 12 hours a day on the mud, will likely need more sid, to do a set of similar RP activities in a similar pattern as the individual who logs on 2 hours a day. Example: A person who logs in 2 hours a day and uses 40 sid to drink, once every two RL days, or 4 hours. Would the person who logged in 12 hours a day, need 120 sid for the extra time, since he drinks 3 times in that 12 hours?

Generally the principle applies to everything, from being able to bring in a shitload of skins/hides/craftables, to making sid, to getting your skills up, to being more likely to gain notice and possible prominence in employment, and of course being present as a leader. *wink* Of course in theory your chance of death is greater too.

Although there isn't a perfect solution, as you're not trying to really impair one player to balance the other, we are trying to create a similar environment for both players which may mean some equalizing, and at least some thought.

[LoD]

How about you create an NPC(s) that will take a fair variety of goods from PC hunters, gatherers and scroungers and return to them a token.  Multiple tokens could then be used for whatever reward system the Clan Imm or PC leader so desires.

Example:

Dusty Storeroom
A balding, hawk-eyed man stands near a large crate, handling inventory.

>talk balding topics
A balding, hawk-eyed man squints at you and says, in sirihish:
     "I take hides, horns, feathers, guts, claws and shells in quantities of five fer a token of commerce."

>inv
You are holding:
some soft golden pelts
some stringy guts
some black feathers

>give balding pelt
You hand over a stack of pelts to a balding, hawk-eyed man.

A balding, hawk-eyed man runs a hand over the pelts with a satisfied grunt before reaching into a worn leather pouch and handing you a bone carved token.

This would get rid of the items in an IC manner as well as provide some system of rewards that the Clan Imm and PC leader think is appropriate.  It could simply be better food, water, perks, gifts, etc...

-LoD

[moab]

This is an interesting idea, LoD.  I think I like it.  You could even allow the pc leaders of the clan decide on the current reward system per token - so the value might fluctuate for a variety of political / social reasons.

[Bestatte]

Ohhh LoD's idea seems interesting..and those tokens could also be traded for more materials..or sid bonuses by the PC boss.

So if the ranger/clothworker brings in a bunch of pelts, he'd give the pelts to the NPC, who would give him tokens, which he could turn in for raw cloth or stones to make buttons with. The pelts would then become available to armormaker types, stones would be acquired by foragers...the only problem would be with cloth, since there currently exists no way to MAKE cloth (unless that's changed since August, but I haven't seen any indication of that in the weekly updates).  Adding a cloth-making craft would probably really help with a more "equitable" and "useful" distribution of materials and goods, and give people something more interesting to do with all those tree barks and vines and stalks of stuff (since natural fiber often comes from those kinds of things in real life).

[Seeker]

Realistically, every "provider" PC for a clan should be turning in all that they gather to the House already. That is what they are paid, fed, watered and sheltered to do.  In short, it is -required-.  

It would be more proper for the House to beat the steaming crap out of a clannie and toss her out into the streets if she failed to come up with their seven tokens a month quota of material.

How much would that suck?  Knowing that you are going to have to spend fifteen hours a week of your on-line time risking your keister in the wilds just to meet such a burden?

As pointed out above, this idea runs headfirst into the problem of your character supposedly being just as productive when the player is off-line as when you are actively running her.

Having cleaned and arranged a LOT of warehouse and crafting halls, the idea of a NPC quartermaster to receive, organize and dispense raw materials sounds interesting.  Turning that quartermaster into a treat dispenser, effectively either side-stepping PC leadership or creating new management headaches for leader PCs and IMMs doesn't sound so very appealing to me yet.


Seeker

[Jarod550]

I totally love this idea, it would make my fellow want to join a clan or house again.

Hell it would make me as a player want to join a house, my whole issue with the houses, was say that my ranger, let's call him joe, goes out and brings back 20 some skinned items, pelts, claws whatever.  He still makes the same 300 or 200 or whatever sid that everyone else in the clan does a month...

You should be recognized and paid on your production, not just cause you're there.

Same should go to crafters, while you suck and break EVERYTHING, you would make your base pay, when you get better and start producing the "awe inspiring death blade" or whatever, you should be paid more.

That's the one thing I find unrealistic is that there really is no gauge on how well you're paid by what you bring in... That's stupid.

Peace,

Jarod

[Delirium]

stuff I totally agreed with

Yep.  Good points.  Yay, Seeker.

The main thing I like about this is an NPC that can handle all of the "junk".  Instead of having spams of chests, trunks, and crates full of humungous piles of objects that -should- be getting used, have an NPC that can handle it all.

Whether or not anything else related to it gets implimented, I would love to at least see that.

[Malifaxis]

How about:

NPC is in charge of the hides, as per the original idea.  Trades them out for either tokens or actual coinage.  Purchased by both as well.

Now, on top of the ability to purchase from the NPC goods pool, the merchants of the clan would also have the ability to (based upon their rank) just request things from the NPC.  This would require a script, I suppose, which I can not write *nudge*.  This would allow for a free gathering of goods from this NPC by anyone associated with crafting for the house, but only up to a specified amount.  Say a recruit merchant would have 500 pts (that translate directly to value, just to keep a complex thing slightly simpler) that they could use to request from the NPC, per IC week.  An advisor, or agent level would get something like 2000.  Family member would be about 5000 to 10000, as they could also be responsible then for delegating goods to PC merchants, in order to keep them busy *NUDGE*  If they wanted to craft more than that, they could supplement those lots of goods with personal income, which would perhaps be possibly be refunded by a kind hearted family member (or they could be told to go take a leap as well.)

Er, it seemed simpler to state when I first thought about it.

[Maybe42or54]

The token idea would be good, but I think it encourages solo hunting. Which I then believe any house would be against. As the hunter is more likely to die. And the hunter would probably agree, but some Pcs wont agree.

[Jherlen]

Okay. So rereading what I'd wrote, I never really intended this idea to enforce 'quotas' on PCs. The idea was more a way to implement a method where clanned hunters could be rewarded based on production, rather than a flat salary. There are pros and cons to either approach. Let me redo this and split it into the three sub-ideas that the original idea meshed together.

1) Have a "quartermaster" NPC in clan compounds who can handle inventory in some fashion. In other words instead of dumping your loads of hides and such into chests, PC gatherers can check in inventory with the quartermaster. PC crafters can later check out inventory to craft with.

As stated before this eliminates the mess and overhead related to having 20 chests, trunks, shelves, boxes, crates, etc filled with craftable materials. It also means that crafting halls won't "fill up" and discourage hunters from doing their jobs.

The only downside I see to this is that it may make it harder for PCs to burglarize clan compounds if they can't get materials off the quartermaster NPC. On the other hand, I think trying to burglarize a clan compound in general and a crafting hall in particular is pretty stupid anyway.

So that's idea 1 and probably the least controversial.


2) Introduce some system where gatherer PCs are rewarded for materials they bring in to the House. This could probably most easily be coupled with a quartermaster NPC, but might not have to be. Rewards could be tokens as LoD suggested, though I think money would be simpler. This is the one making debate over the productivity issue.

My thoughts: a reward system wouldn't necessarily mean the salary your clanned PC makes is taken away entirely. It could be implemented on top of this. ALSO, many people are all too quick to discount the 'intangible' benefits that steady clan work provides: namely in most cases never needing to worry about food, water, or a place to keep your stuff. You could consider that what a PC is doing in offline time is what is earning him the right to his free lunches.

While I do understand that a reward system like this would be to the advantage of PCs who can play more, the game is already set up that way. More active PCs will gain skills faster relative to less active ones, they will establish more contacts in game, they will be more involved in plots, etc. Whether with the current system or this one, online pcs will always be actually more productive than offline ones, whether they supposedly should be or not. Either way you set things up that won't change. Rewarding somebody based on their production at least gives the hunters who play a lot an incentive to do their jobs and might make things more interesting for them.

IMO an operational change like that would make the clanned hunter role feel a little more fun. But obviously its debatable.


3) Mini issue regarding whether PC crafters would pay for materials off a quartermaster or not. Again, I just figured this would make sense given the crafters are the ones who are responsible for making and breaking materials. (And though how you can RP the material being flawed instead of your technique sucking, truth is that better crafters codedly botch stuff less. Thus the arguement of a crafter breaking materials and losing the House money makes sense to me.)  

When merchants take stock out of inventory, the merchant usually has to pay coin in deposit for the item in case it gets lost, stolen, etc. They make the money back when they sell it. Whether or not crafters are selling items directly to buyers or just turning them over to the House, most Houses give crafters a cut of profits for their finished goods. Either way charging them for their materials doesn't mean they won't make money easily.

I threw this in just to package it along with the rest of the stuff, though. Again it's mostly an operational issue.



If nothing else, I hope everyone who has ever been in charge of a clan and organising a crafting hall sees the merits of having an NPC quartermaster who could take care of that. That alone would make crafting clans much much cleaner and nicer in terms of overhead. Hopefully nobody has much objection to that. Anyway I figured I might try and break the original idea up into some sub-points to help the debate steer itself along more easily.

[Anonymous]

Should not we expand OP's idea further? Yes, we should.
We set up another clan shop for PC crafters to sell their wares to. Clanned PC merchants will buy there with clan discounts and sell with profit it to NPC shops in town. Everyone is happy so far? Why, newly hired merchant Joe has all rights to gain access to wares crafted by Crafter Joe ages before, so it would not hurt to create stock of goods for him as well.

Furthermore and following that line of thoughts, let's think about independent Hunter Joe and independent Crafter Joe. Why independent Crafter Joe can't have access to loads of materials that was gathered by generations of independent Joe Hunters? Let's remove all limits on amount of goods NPCs can buy and provide them with never-ending funds and inventory. I know that it will encourage independent spam-hunters to do their evil deeds, but why is that worse than spam hunting by clannies?

Besides, when everything is automated and NPC-handled, what do we need merchant houses for? Clans are supposed to consolidate player-base and make groups of PCs to work together on common goals. Unlike some people think, purpose of mercantile organization is not in gathering stocks of useless raw materials, but in making profit. Now tell me, what kind of common goals have a Great Merchant House Joe where hunter Joe hunts all that he wants, crafter Joe crafts all he wants and merchant Joe sells all he wants? And all they want they do without any other PCs help.

I admit, due to restrictions of game world not all economy can be player driven. That is why we have NPC shops where most of House-made goods go. That is why almost everything that is purchased by PCs from PCs is loaded by immortals. But there are rare cases when a whole chain from vicious alive tembo to new piece of mesh armor goes through PC-hunter, PC-crafter, PC-merchant and PC-customer; it's when they depend on each other for the meaningful purpose, it's where reason for PC-interaction and low scale conflict and competition appears, it's where raider Joe, spy Joe and assassin Joe find enough room for themselves too. These rare events create mini-quests that make everyday life between HRPTs purposeful.

I'd support any idea that helps to avoid aforementioned restrictions, but I don't like any idea that brings economy further to VNPC level.
Your hunters bring too much of useless goods? Why do you hire and pay someone for doing something you have no use for? Why do you think that VNPC Agents are smarter than you and they don't hire useless men for useless purposes? Why do you want to move these hundred canine bones to virtual storeroom, if it virtually holds thousands of that type already, gathered by virtual fuck ups?
You don't have a crafter to put your stock into use? It sucks to be you then. There are times when you can't hire assassin, when you can't hire guide or explorer, when you can't bribe templar. Once in a year you can't hire a hunter or find any f-me to mudsex with. Live with it.

Now, let me troll...ahem...talk about rewards to hunters a little. To start with, five carru hides shouldn't be rewarded equally to five vestric feathers. Furthermore, curru hide should not be equal to that of tandu. Under close examination of the tokens idea we will eventually come to conclusion that there is a need for so-so precise mechanism that will reward differently depending on the type and quality of materials gathered. Guess what, that mechanism exist both on Earth and Zalanthas and is called 'money'. So eventually LoD's tokens will bring us back to original poster's idea thus I am not going to discuss it separately anymore.

What I do agree with, is that fixed equal wages spoil people and create disturbance among the populace like "why me and Joe hunter receive equal pay if he can't kill shit and does not even tries to". The guaranteed money system makes some people to come back after long hiatus from the game and ask 'where is me money? I've been virtually hunting all these years' and answer of them being virtually paid and virtually spending their money never gets across.

What I don't understand is why that system should be anyways automatic, fair and non-arbitrary? Keep in mind, that I still don't like idea of hunter Joe being paid for something that none has ever asked him to bring. But anyways, I'd suggest that all wages and other expenses are to be handled by ranking PC in charge on their whim. The way they do it and how employers try to impress them is not important. What I think is important, is that those funds along with Leader's personal pay is limited and further determined by Seniors, depending on how well their group do (That's going to be arbitrary as well, Seniors are human too. Though I pray it would never be dependant on how fast you fill your storeroom with gortok's skulls). Let's say fresh Junior starts with ability to spend 2000 per month. If he thinks he will do fine with a single hunter he is free to pay him 2000, he can even add his own wages to the pile. Maybe he is kind enough to purchase free kanks for five new hunters and pay nothing in coin. Going to invest everything to purchase free arrows and other equipment? Go ahead. Hire ninja-mindbender for two large and expect everyone else working for food and water? Excellent. It's up to employers to decide if they want to work for this leader and it's up to them to find ways to impress him with their abilities. Someone might want to decide to work hard, while another will do nothing but kiss up. One can try and do both, but will be overlooked and underpaid still. It's life, are not we all getting underpaid and overlooked in real life, from our point of view. Zalanthans are better off because, according to unverified rumor, everyone can go independent and become rich beyond their wildest dreams.

[Yokunama]

The token idea would be good, but I think it encourages solo hunting. Which I then believe any house would be against. As the hunter is more likely to die. And the hunter would probably agree, but some Pcs wont agree.

Yea, and I personally think that the tokens should be given away by the PC superiors in charge, because this could easily become abused. Also, it wouldn't hurt anyone to simply report to their superior PC and give a detailed description of what they brought in.

[Rindan]

While perhaps a little tongue in cheek, I agree with the anonymous kank.  We are trying automate rewards and make the game fair.  That really is not what it is supposed to be about.  I don't think that hunters should receive extra 'sid, tokens, or whatever from an NPC because he drags in a dozen hides that he spam hunted for.  Having such a system would make everything code enforced fair and egalitarian... exactly what should NOT happened on Zalanthas.

I think the anonymous kank brings to the table an excellent solution; arbitrary pay.  Merchant Amos who has two hunters and a crafter under him gets a certain amount of 'sid each month.  The amount of 'sid Merchant Amos gets is based purely on how well he has been doing.  If Merchant Amos has been kicking ass and raking in the 'sid, he gets a big pile of 'sid to his name.  If he has failed to bring much of anything to the House, he gets a paltry sum and told to do better.  With the money he is paid, he can do whatever he damn well pleases in terms of paying his workers.  If he really values his crafter but considers hunters to be a dime a dozen, he might give his crafter a 1000 'sid and his hunters a 100 each on top of the food and discounts they receive.  He might pay his hunters in nothing but equipment.  He might pay one hunter 600 'sid because he is productive, and pay the other a 100 'sid because he thinks he is worthless.  He might pay one hunter more then the other because one hunter is a better ass kisser.

I think this would encourage a little more Zalanthian behavior.  People would suck up to the boss more often.  Merchants would be greedier as their success determines their funds.  Hunters would make a better effort to satisfy their merchants.  People under a merchant would make far more of an effort to send business to their merchant because it very directly helps them.  You build an entire chain of people devoted to really pleasing the person above them.  This is the way Zalathian organizational structures should be built.

As the anonymous kank pointed out, you join a clan to be apart of an organization and interact with its politics.  The NPC middlemen you throw in the way of interaction, the more you dilute that purpose of the clan.  Throw in enough NPC middlemen and you might as well just be another independent who has access to the clan uber store of infinite buying and selling.  That is the last thing in the world I would want to see clans become.

[Anonymous]

2) Introduce some system where gatherer PCs are rewarded for materials they bring in to the House. This could probably most easily be coupled with a quartermaster NPC, but might not have to be. Rewards could be tokens as LoD suggested, though I think money would be simpler. This is the one making debate over the productivity issue.

There is a system currently in use, but PCs shouldn't expect to get rewarded each time they bring in a load of supplies. If a PC is making "real progress" within the house, I'm sure it is going to get noticed eventually, and someone in charge will thank the PC, offer a reward, and give a suggestion to not let up on the good work.

If the house offers any type of rewards, they would have mentioned before they hired your character. It is not about rewards; It is about doing your job. Some houses offer you free food, water and housing and that is good enough.

[Jherlen]

Remove the entire buy/sell concept and you still have a handy way to keep warehouses in order.

I agree that the game should not be fair, however I also know from observation and experience that in the long term, clanned hunters get steamrolled by monotony. At some point things stop becoming as much of a challenge. The rewards system was proposed as an idea to change that up.

Arbitrary pay might be a good compromise, though you may run back into the problem of Guy A who plays 12 hours a day doing more, getting noticed more by his leader, and thus getting paid more, while Guy B in the same job may not get noticed as much since he only plays 2 hours a day. This could mean he may get paid less, or not at all if he can't even find his leader PC in game. It sounds like more work for leaders to determine who gets paid how much and when, but then being a clan leader isn't easy anyway.

[Jarod550]

Arbitrary pay might be a good compromise, though you may run back into the problem of Guy A who plays 12 hours a day doing more, getting noticed more by his leader, and thus getting paid more, while Guy B in the same job may not get noticed as much since he only plays 2 hours a day. This could mean he may get paid less, or not at all if he can't even find his leader PC in game. It sounds like more work for leaders to determine who gets paid how much and when, but then being a clan leader isn't easy anyway.

Sounds like tough cookies to the two hour player

Jarod

[Yokunama]

2) Introduce some system where gatherer PCs are rewarded for materials they bring in to the House. This could probably most easily be coupled with a quartermaster NPC, but might not have to be. Rewards could be tokens as LoD suggested, though I think money would be simpler. This is the one making debate over the productivity issue.

There is a system currently in use, but PCs shouldn't expect to get rewarded each time they bring in a load of supplies. If a PC is making "real progress" within the house, I'm sure it is going to get noticed eventually, and someone in charge will thank the PC, offer a reward, and give a suggestion to not let up on the good work.

If the house offers any type of rewards, they would have mentioned before they hired your character. It is not about rewards; It is about doing your job. Some houses offer you free food, water and housing and that is good enough.

I forgot to log in when I posted that.

[Tamarin]

Not sure if it's been said, but...

Code Select Expand

>offer pack quartermaster

The burly, scarred quartermaster takes your backpack and hands you a red-cross vellum ticket.

>offer ticket quartermaster
The burly, scarred quartermaster takes your ticket and hands you a backpack.

This as what I want.

[Agent_137]

This could mean he may get paid less, or not at all if he can't even find his leader PC in game.

Sounds like tough cookies to the two hour player

Jarod

It shouldn't be that way. In the world of Zalanthas, both characters are around all the time. It's only the player that isn't. Plus, the majority of players probably hover around 2-3 hours a day. I don't have any data on this other than my extensive experience in clans.

[Jarod550]

It shouldn't be that way. In the world of Zalanthas, both characters are around all the time. It's only the player that isn't. Plus, the majority of players probably hover around 2-3 hours a day. I don't have any data on this other than my extensive experience in clans.

However, this is a game, and those who put more work or time into it, should be ahead of those who just casually come on, do one or two things and leave.

Jarod

[Moofassa]

Not sure if it's been said, but...

Code Select Expand

>offer pack quartermaster

The burly, scarred quartermaster takes your backpack and hands you a red-cross vellum ticket.

>offer ticket quartermaster
The burly, scarred quartermaster takes your ticket and hands you a backpack.

This as what I want.

Agreed.

[Agent_137]

jarod, i'm sending you a PM.

[Anonymous]

Remove the entire buy/sell concept and you still have a handy way to keep warehouses in order.

I agree that the game should not be fair, however I also know from observation and experience that in the long term, clanned hunters get steamrolled by monotony. At some point things stop becoming as much of a challenge. The rewards system was proposed as an idea to change that up.

Arbitrary pay might be a good compromise, though you may run back into the problem of Guy A who plays 12 hours a day doing more, getting noticed more by his leader, and thus getting paid more, while Guy B in the same job may not get noticed as much since he only plays 2 hours a day. This could mean he may get paid less, or not at all if he can't even find his leader PC in game. It sounds like more work for leaders to determine who gets paid how much and when, but then being a clan leader isn't easy anyway.

As I have said and Rindan summed up, I am not against keeping warehouse nice and tidy, I am against making economy virtual even further. I am not against making clannie's life interesting; I am against clannies acting like independents in House livery, using coded advantages when it comes to using clan resources, but trying to keep all obligations toward the clan on virtual level.

You say that leader's life is not easy, well, IMO the hardest part in being the leader in convincing your hires to do what you need them to do, instead of doing whatever pleases them in the moment. I've seen it done a lot: once leader hires someone they immediately stop working for that leader and start working for virtual clan, and they know better what clan virtually needs and, surprising enough, clan always seems to need whatever they do. Leader becomes a middleman between employers and clan account and we all know that payroll is in clan docs thus immortal staff guarantees it being paid fully and on time. So, "Where is my money, bitch? And fetch me some silk, I am going to do some crafting here. Ah, and on your way back roll some travel cakes, for our hunters are hungry." Sure, they are hungry. They are too busy to hunt some meat for themselves; they are trying to cover virtual House needs. One is dueling anakore, because House wants to see him in new gloves; second feels that it's about time since House had a full scale war with some tribe, so he is looking to change that; third is tavern-idling, fourth is a crafting sub-guild, so he is fetching components to practice it and, you bet, House wants him to become Master Florist. I am not saying leader should control all aspects of employer's life, but if he wants trigil hides and doesn't get a single one within RL month, then leader is nothing but the word.

Example given is not purely product of my imagination. Arbitrary pay doesn't fully solve this problem; it simply gives a tool of control to a leader, which he can use, prior to firing and assassinating employers. Leader answers for setting up and reaching meaningful goals, employers do their part of process and are rewarded accordingly. It's better than no one answers for anything, except for filling up virtual storerooms.

Now, there is no solution to how reward everyone equally, yet in the same time reward more those who have more things done. Even current system provides better chance of promotion to players who logged often and during peak hours, even current bonuses dispersed among those who do right thing in the right time. So what? Even your idea didn't offer anything, just trading rewards for total time spent online to rewards for time one hunts in the wastes. Leader should not be online in the same time with employer all the time for vague understanding of what the later one is about. Maybe once in awhile to set one on task and trigil hide in the chest will prove that someone is working. But there are dozen things unrelated to hide gathering that may affect your pay: your behavior within compound and outside, assistance in teaching recruits that doesn't yet deserve promotion, making contacts, being in favor of important outsider, many other things, both screw ups and achievements that are called "overall impression" and have nothing to do with your main duty. I don't say everyone must take these things into account, I say they might want to. Leader has concept and personality when he falls upon your head, so let him show what he wants and expects from you. I don't think though, that the more leaders see you the better off you are. When you are perfect (in leader's eyes, by their standards, not yours) then yes, but if not then it helps you to hide your many failures. The plus of arbitrary system is in being able to affect your pay in one or another. Your pay isn't carved in stone but set by vulnerable PC and can be changed. So do what you want if you feel you deserve better: talk to him, convince him, bribe him, spy on him, stop working, threaten and blackmail him, give up and leave him, give up and kill him. You can't do it with payroll chart on the clan board and with NPC quartermaster's script, can you?

By the way, if leaders were halving employer's salary anytime they spot them misplacing goods in storeroom then it would greatly help them to keep things in order.
Anyways, I am back to your VNPC quartermaster. So, yet again, you are not only trading tidy storerooms for the chance to burglarize it, which alone is crime against humanity. Along the way you (even without buy and sell feature):

1. Justify unlimited and unauthorized hunting by clan hunters, by giving them excuse of working on virtually needed tasks.
2. Offer virtually unlimited source of supply to crafters.
3. Strip PC leader of means and duty to monitor, control and affect their group work.

You break all bonds within Merchant House, cutting through natural dependencies within the organization, offering them to work on task that is beginning and the end of itself and have no affect on others. In other words the only difference between clanned in Merchant House and independent would be in ability to spam hunt and spam craft. You propose that drastic change just because you think that searching through 200+ strings of your quartermaster's 'list' is easier than scanning through 20 chests?

What about diamonds, silver shards, anakore claws, dragon teeth? They too are a gift?

PC crafters can still get materials to craft goods with even when there are no hunters in their clan.

[Jherlen]

AK, if you feel this strongly against this to write such long and heated posts about it, maybe you should do it while logged in too.

By the way, if leaders were halving employer's salary anytime they spot them misplacing goods in storeroom then it would greatly help them to keep things in order.

Still requires keeping a GDB thread updated and maintained with storage info or some other method, then getting clan members to read it, and then catching them when they don't. Most leaders have a million better things to do than police storerooms.

Anyways, I am back to your VNPC quartermaster. So, yet again, you are not only trading tidy storerooms for the chance to burglarize it, which alone is crime against humanity.

Think for a moment about how feasible it is to burglarize a storeroom in a clan compound when you aren't a member of the clan. There are several observant VNPCs in clan halls who would have never seen you around before. Claiming you could escape notice while rooting through their storage bins is silly. And what would the gate guards say when you try to sneak out with any of it? I don't see how this is a "crime against humanity" at all.

Along the way you (even without buy and sell feature):
1. Justify unlimited and unauthorized hunting by clan hunters, by giving them excuse of working on virtually needed tasks.

Clan members tend to have schedules they should follow. Following the schedule limits hunting. If PCs are ignoring their schedule it can be handled ICly. People who play their roles well will not overhunt. And I don't know how hunting can be 'unauthorized' if it is someone's job to begin with.

A quartermaster would reflect the virtual nature of a storage hall. It would ease up sorting overhead. It would also remove restrictions on hunters doing their jobs that don't make sense. Hunters shouldn't be disallowed from hunting simply because no one has crafted what they bring in and there's no room for more.

2. Offer virtually unlimited source of supply to crafters.

Limits on crafters' supplies are almost irrelevant to this discussion anyway. If the hunters bring in 10 scrab shell, the crafter has 10 scrab shell to craft with, no matter where it's kept. This way he can at least find it.

As I write this I even realize that on the other side of a coin, item quantities stored on a quartermaster could easily be made to reduce themselves over time to reflect virtual use. This would prevent the hunters from stocking 500 of some kind of item on the guy because no one is crafting it.

3. Strip PC leader of means and duty to monitor, control and affect their group work.

As I said above, leaders shouldn't have to be crafting hall policemen. That isn't their duty. They will also have means to monitor and control work - the leader can check inventory more easily this way than he could before. If he sees stocks in something are too high or low, he can affect this however he could normally. A less annoying storage scheme doesn't suddenly make the leader obsolete in any way.

You break all bonds within Merchant House, cutting through natural dependencies within the organization, offering them to work on task that is beginning and the end of itself and have no affect on others. In other words the only difference between clanned in Merchant House and independent would be in ability to spam hunt and spam craft. You propose that drastic change just because you think that searching through 200+ strings of your quartermaster's 'list' is easier than scanning through 20 chests?

This isn't a drastic change at all. In fact it doesn't change the tasks people are hired to do, just their ability to do them without headache and OOCly contrived problems. Debate what clanned hunters or crafters should be doing all you like, but if you agree a hunter's job is to hunt, then let them hunt realistically and not have to stop when they fill a chest that never empties itself. If a crafter's hired job is to craft, then let him have easy access to his materials.

What about diamonds, silver shards, anakore claws, dragon teeth? They too are a gift?

PC crafters can still get materials to craft goods with even when there are no hunters in their clan.

Every single crafter should have unlimited access to all kinds of rare materials all the time no matter what. Thank you for catching exactly the meaning of what I said there.

[Anonymous]

Think for a moment about how feasible it is to burglarize a storeroom in a clan compound when you aren't a member of the clan. There are several observant VNPCs in clan halls who would have never seen you around before. Claiming you could escape notice while rooting through their storage bins is silly. And what would the gate guards say when you try to sneak out with any of it? I don't see how this is a "crime against humanity" at all.

Thought about it for more than one moment and I am sure I am not the only one. By making storeroom codedly empty but virtually full, you close the door to all attempts to accomplish it yourself, while only being monitored by staff. But zillion ways of trying and doing it realistically still exist, with staff's support. The only problem is that while I don't mind being monitored, I don't believe event worth a trouble to ask for said support.

Clan members tend to have schedules they should follow. Following the schedule limits hunting. If PCs are ignoring their schedule it can be handled ICly. People who play their roles well will not overhunt. And I don't know how hunting can be 'unauthorized' if it is someone's job to begin with.

A quartermaster would reflect the virtual nature of a storage hall. It would ease up sorting overhead. It would also remove restrictions on hunters doing their jobs that don't make sense. Hunters shouldn't be disallowed from hunting simply because no one has crafted what they bring in and there's no room for more.

Limits on crafters' supplies are almost irrelevant to this discussion anyway. If the hunters bring in 10 scrab shell, the crafter has 10 scrab shell to craft with, no matter where it's kept. This way he can at least find it.

As I write this I even realize that on the other side of a coin, item quantities stored on a quartermaster could easily be made to reduce themselves over time to reflect virtual use. This would prevent the hunters from stocking 500 of some kind of item on the guy because no one is crafting it.

Not all clans have schedule, not all GMHs for that matter. Schedule is needed when clan can't offer goals to work on, and offers processes instead. "And every afternoon on Nekrete we dive in latrines".

If you have 500 in stock, but you go for 501 and 502 what is it if not overhunting?
If 500 remain unused who would authorize hunter to be paid for getting 501 and 502?

Right, limits don't matter. Your example is unrelated though. By your kind offer, crafters have 10 scrab shells to work on even when your hunters bring nothing, they have 100 after plundering all stored stock and have 1000 even when you don't have hunters at all.

As I said above, leaders shouldn't have to be crafting hall policemen. That isn't their duty. They will also have means to monitor and control work - the leader can check inventory more easily this way than he could before. If he sees stocks in something are too high or low, he can affect this however he could normally. A less annoying storage scheme doesn't suddenly make the leader obsolete in any way.

Didn't you say your quatermaster is "shopkeeper". There were no coded way of checking quantity of inventory on shopie last time I checked. But it doesn't matter, let's pretend leader can check inventory. But what would he do it for? His crafters are supplied no matter what he does. And hunters hunt what they want, no matter what he says. And by changing numbers '500' to '600' what would ever change in PC world? The only problem I have is with negative numbers. If I have five hides, I have five hides. If I have none I have none. But if we have no hides, yet our crafters continue to work no matter what, then what -3000 on your quartermaster's list mean?

Debate what clanned hunters or crafters should be doing all you like, but if you agree a hunter's job is to hunt, then let them hunt realistically and not have to stop when they fill a chest that never empties itself. If a crafter's hired job is to craft, then let him have easy access to his materials.

I follow. If guard's work is to guard, then pay him for guarding his own bed. If assasin is hired to kill, then let him have easy access to his victim.

Every single crafter should have unlimited access to all kinds of rare materials all the time no matter what. Thank you for catching exactly the meaning of what I said there.

Thank you for making it clear. I thought I got you all wrong. And was hoping you will think again as you type. Now I am crushed. Ruined. I give up. And you win.

One question before I escape.
So, the virtual part of your House. They aren't your father, mother and lover. They are competition. They murder, lie, cheat and otherwise claw their way for the better standing within organisation. And by whatever means and after crossing nameless rivers of sweat and blood, they lay their hands upon some silver. And then they give you this something that costs more than your life, give it in exchange for useless crap even your hunters are able to gather in hundreds. And not only single piece, but anything, anytime, no matter what.  Why do they do it?

[LoD]

Thank you for making it clear. I thought I got you all wrong. And was hoping you will think again as you type. Now I am crushed. Ruined. I give up. And you win.

I really wish you would ease up on the sarcasm, veiled insults and drama.  They are really distracting when trying to weigh and consider any points you may bring up regarding this issue.  Perhaps you have no other written voice, but the content of your posts suggests otherwise.

Arbitrary pay may work in a situation where the clan leader is online enough to determine a given employees worth and/or distribute the pay across a playing schedule that may well span several time zones.  One of the most common complaints you will hear within a given clan is that the person responsibile for payment is never around.

My suggestion for a reward system was neither to replace PC-PC interaction nor to create a "fair" system.  I suggested tokens rather than coin so that the Clan Immortal or PC Leader could determine the worth of the tokens.  Many of you seem to assume that they are the same as money, but the tokens could be used toward any reward conceivable.  Don't be so quick to limit your options.

Perhaps the quartermaster could only be accessed via a leader, and the tokens were a representation of the House Unit's production, with some reward system created between the Clan Imm and the PC Leader.  The Pc Leader clears out the stockroom once a week via the quartermaster and perhaps the Clan Imm bases bonus pay, perks and other incentives through each performance.

Schedule is needed when clan can't offer goals to work on, and offers processes instead.

Point me in the direction of a clan with tiered positions (i.e. servant, crafter, guard, hunter, officer, agent, etc...) that has consistently had an active PC Leader without interruption, and I would agree.  The reality, however, is that schedules serve a dual purpose: to provide direction in the absence of a PC leader and clearly defined goals, and to encourage self discipline and interaction, especially within newer players that may not see a benefit in working through "boring" tasks that may well need to be done.

I have successfully led a good many clans, both new and established.  While I didn't have schedules for many of the "new" clans, I appreciated scheduling in some of the old clans we had if for no other reason than to provide direction to players who logged in at off times or managed to miss me when I was present.  Schedules provide you (the leader) with an idea of where to find your employees at a given time/day, and that is also a useful benefit.

My suggestion is to allow your imagination to entertain a few other possibilities than the absolutes you seem to be clinging to when responding to the OP's idea.  The only absolute is that this game has an infinite amount of possibilities and no one has developed a perfect system.  Don't be so hasty to jab at someone simply because you disagree.

-LoD

[JustThisGuy]

I'm gonna derail this a bit to ask a question.  In some of these posts, I see people talking about how hunters shouldn't be hunting all the time and clan schedules that limit hunting.  To this I have to ask "huh?"  I play a hunter in a house.  At first light, every single day, I ride out, hunt, mine (or gather whatever resources our agent requests) and return.  I go to sleep at dusk, wake up at first light, do it all over again.  Why is this wrong?  I am a hunter.  I hunt.  That is my job.  What is the problem with that?  I didn't join a house to get involved in its politics and such.  I joined a house to have a place to sleep, steady pay, and to hunt.  Hell, I even complain when I am tasked with guarding a wagon because that is not my job.  So, why are people trying to limit hunters from hunting?  

And what is spam hunting?  Does that mean going out and killing all the game you can before dark and returning with your skins?  Why is THAT wrong for a hunter to do?  Most hunters I play with, myself included, don't just kill, skin and move on, either.  We RP the whole thing.  Hell, even by myself, I RP the whole thing.  I'm not playing this role to get involved in plots or anything like that.  I am playing a hunter, and all I ever intend to do with this character is get up at first light, go out and hunt, come back and go to sleep...every day.  I guess I'm just confused why people are complaining about hunters doing what they are paid to do...hunt.

[Agent_137]

Because we are uncomfortable with anyone who can hunt day in and day out and be happy. We are suspiscious of your roleplaying abilities because usually anyone who says, "I like to hunt, just hunt" is a power gamer used to hack and slash muds. And these types of players throw the whole virtual world out of whack.

So maybe you follow the little know hunting document to a T.
( http://www.armageddon.org/rp/subguilds/hunter.html )

Maybe you are the perfect hunter, and all the immortals love you for it.

But, statistically, it's unlikely you are.

Forgive our mistrust. (and read the document if you haven't.)

(And if you're not taking days off, you might reconsider your consideration how deeply you are intune with your character. No one works 11 days a week. Not even dwarves.)

Disclaimer:
**When I say, "we" i mean: Myself and what I seem to read from other people. when I use "we" it may actually just mean "me."
**No accurate statistics were used in the making of this post. It's all guestimation and summary of my experiences here, which might be completely out of synch with reality.

[jhunter]

(And if you're not taking days off, you might reconsider your consideration how deeply you are intune with your character. No one works 11 days a week. Not even dwarves.)

Not that I'm condoning spam-hunting or anything but, there are people that are workaholics in RL. There are people that do pretty much nothing but eat, sleep, and work. Usually though, there are some long-term negative effects from this behavior, burnout, addictions, loss of all other non-work things in their lives (family, friends...etc..)

And dependant on a particular dwarf's focus I can easily see a dwarf that would be IC for.

[Agent_137]

I've always felt the staff have look down upon that work-a-holic attitude, even for dwarves, as it's too easy to step into serious spam whatever you are doing. Sure, you can make up IC reasons for it, but that doesn't mean they're good enough to pass staff judgement.

And the work-a-holics I know work 6 days a week, and then do a different type of work on the 7th day. And they don't work all day, they tend to take 12 hour days at most.

Also, i'm not saying "Never work 11 days a week." If there's a specific IC reason that your character needs to hump and get it, and bust ass for about a month or so to achieve a certain goal or task, great. Bust hump.

But if every moment of your login is working (read: hunting) or resting at night alone in a tent while the player eats a sandwhich, then you're doing something wrong.

[jhunter]

I think that's it's okay to play this sort of character just as long as you play out the negative effects of it as well. This can also be helped by the co-workers/employers putting pressure on them.
The problem is that most people doing this don't play out -any- of the negative effects that would come of being a workaholic.

Also that other hunters don't often enough ICly do anything about those who overhunt. (D-elf pcs that attack any non-elf just for being outside a city don't count as they are poorly roleplayed IMO anyway.)  I just hear more complaints on the GDB about it than I see people -doing- anything ICly. I think it's because they don't want to risk their pc ICly and are looking for an OOC way of having it dealt with. *shrug*

Sorry for continuing the derail a bit.

[LoD]

I see people talking about how hunters shouldn't be hunting all the time and clan schedules that limit hunting.  To this I have to ask "huh?"  I play a hunter in a house.  At first light, every single day, I ride out, hunt, mine (or gather whatever resources our agent requests) and return.  I go to sleep at dusk, wake up at first light, do it all over again.  Why is this wrong?  I am a hunter.  I hunt.  That is my job.  What is the problem with that?

People aren't jobs.  Nor are they video game characters.  

People have desires, hopes, needs, wants and relationships.  Video game characters execute commands.  Sure you might throw an emote in there once or twice while you hunt, but that is usually done to somehow rationalize the superhuman speed and efficiency with which you track, kill and skin animals every single day of the week.

People need downtime.  Video game characters do not.  Hunting is a dangerous and tiring profession that should be coupled with mental and physical downtime to recover and reload.  Even nomadic tribes that hunted out of necessity wouldn't go every day if they were successful, because they also had friends, love interets, family, rivals and more depth to their personality than being a "hunter".

Don't let the profession dictate your actions.  The profession should represent a part of your character, not the whole.  Do you know what a puzzle is that only has one piece?  It's called a picture.  And you can't interact with pictures very well because they're shallow moments frozen in time.  Think of if your daily RP was written in a novel as you acted.  Would it be any fun to read?  The 100th gurth you just killed with the same stock emotes?  If there was nothing between those moments of hunting besides sleep, you are robbing yourself (and others) of something great.

That's the problem with it.

-LoD

[JustThisGuy]

First off, I don't play this game to impress the Imms.  My attitude is, if I'm not doing something right, I'll be corrected, but I'm pretty sure I'm not playing poorly anyway.  After 13 years, I've stopped worrying about what the staff may think about me.  I know they have ways of dealing with poor players.  

Secondly, my days off are when I'm not logged in.  I interact with other members of my house when they are on.  I will not deviate from my character to go to the Gaj (or anywhere outside of my house's estate) and find a plot to RP because that is actually breaking character for me.  If a plot finds me (which it has once now), great!  I'll play it out (which I did) and get back to work (which I also did).  Trust me...there is enough drama for me dealing with some of the other PCs in my house to keep me busy.

Thirdly, I'd ask that people be careful in their generalizations about who is a powergamer.  It really isn't fair to say without knowing the details of the character.  I couldn't care less about my skill levels because all I care to do is go out and hunt.  You don't need to max your skills to do that.  I don't even go after any game that I don't think would be realistically possible for me to take down given my character's background/personality (unless there are a few hunters with me).  I've never played a hack 'n slash MUD longer than 10 mins (long enough to determine there is no real substance to it).

Maybe you can wrap your mind around the concept of playing a simple character with a mundane life, maybe you can't.  That isn't important.  What is of monumental importance is that I can and find it fun.

[Agent_137]

I think we have been careful.

Powergamers ignore docs and are out of whack with the rest of the game world, virtually, codedly, and PC.

I'm not saying you are. I'm just saying the easiet way to BE a powergamer is hunt all the time.

And for the sake of the point, Simple and Mundane are NOT the same at all.

I live a rather mundane life. I work, I go to school, I have hobbies, I have a girlfriend. Much like many other people. I'm no hero, I'm no rock star, I'm no big shot. But my life is -FAR- from simple.

Questions, complications, issues, problems, obstacles. My life is not simple. Neither is yours. Mundane lives are not simple. No lives are simple. Don't limit your character to a simple life just because he's mundane.

[JustThisGuy]

I guess we just have different play styles (and let's try to avoid getting into semantical arguments over casual wording).  Ultimately, I'd really like to see less of people speaking as though they have their fingers on the pulse of what the "right" play style is.  If a player wants to RP their character's dramas and conflicts and issues, go for it.  More power to them.  Let other players play their simple characters with their mundane lives and don't criticize for it.  Just because one person can't see the merits of the way another person plays doesn't make the first person's way right and anyone else who does it differently wrong or a lesser player.  Some people who have very stressful, emotionally draining jobs may just want to log in and do something very routine and uninteresting to wind down and escape.  There's nothing wrong with that, so no one should characterize it as anything more than what it is because they can't know all the facts involved in that character or the player.

[Jarod550]

I guess we just have different play styles (and let's try to avoid getting into semantical arguments over casual wording).  Ultimately, I'd really like to see less of people speaking as though they have their fingers on the pulse of what the "right" play style is.  If a player wants to RP their character's dramas and conflicts and issues, go for it.  More power to them.  Let other players play their simple characters with their mundane lives and don't criticize for it.  Just because one person can't see the merits of the way another person plays doesn't make the first person's way right and anyone else who does it differently wrong or a lesser player.  Some people who have very stressful, emotionally draining jobs may just want to log in and do something very routine and uninteresting to wind down and escape.  There's nothing wrong with that, so no one should characterize it as anything more than what it is because they can't know all the facts involved in that character or the player.

*Jarod sings praises for Justthisguy*


If you're character kicks the bucket any time soon, shoot me a pm, we think almost exactly the same.

Would make one hell of a hunting duo.

Jarod

[Agent_137]

It's not semantics, it's diction.

[JustThisGuy]

Touche.  

[Anonymous]

Arbitrary pay may work in a situation where the clan leader is online enough to determine a given employees worth and/or distribute the pay across a playing schedule that may well span several time zones.  One of the most common complaints you will hear within a given clan is that the person responsibile for payment is never around.

There was a discussion not so long time ago where people were wishing their payment to be scripted and automated. Halaster said it will never be implemented, mostly because "...we feel it would take away one of the roleplaying opportunities that leader types have with those they lead, plain and simple."
I don't know how staff pictures that minimal amount of interaction, I don't know what others usually do with it, but I'd use that minimal opportunity to find out how useful my employer is, which is very easy when we talk about hunters. I felt it was a part of my job, even though I can't say I was putting any special effort into it. But I always knew how well they do with tasks I give them, I knew at what rate they provide useful extras, I was aware of all incidents involving them that became a public knowledge. But then again, I was never obsessed to know if that particular hunter brings 20 or 21 rat-tails per month, if there were no way crafters could pull money out of it.

My suggestion for a reward system was neither to replace PC-PC interaction nor to create a "fair" system.  I suggested tokens rather than coin so that the Clan Immortal or PC Leader could determine the worth of the tokens.  Many of you seem to assume that they are the same as money, but the tokens could be used toward any reward conceivable.  Don't be so quick to limit your options.

Perhaps the quartermaster could only be accessed via a leader, and the tokens were a representation of the House Unit's production, with some reward system created between the Clan Imm and the PC Leader.  The Pc Leader clears out the stockroom once a week via the quartermaster and perhaps the Clan Imm bases bonus pay, perks and other incentives through each performance.

Unless you have repeated your idea for someone else, I am forced to repeat why I think that even OP's original idea is better than yours. If I don't know what exactly token was given for then I can't identify its value to current group's needs, and if I know what it was awarded for then I don't need the token. And if I were forced to reward someone for I-don't-know-what-for then I'd choose that kind of rewards given automatically, according to local market prices, with precision that only allanaki coins could provide.

It took me disappointingly long time to realize that despite restrictions economic on Zalanthas is the least virtually affected sphere of life. It's more PC affected than politics and more real than combat and crime codes. In fact I think that everything is ready to make all PC groups within Great Merchant Houses to be self-dependant. I'd like to see bigger starting funds to represent wealthy family background, but afterwards they should be on their own. With help from House facilities and wagons and with discounts in House shops they will be better off than any independent group, but I don't see any reason why virtual House should sponsor them all the way.

The only problem I see is about hunters, because they mostly loose in competition to independent freelancers. It's not about lack of effort, though for every huntaholic you have one clanned "hunter" which never hunts. But clanned effort is often misplaced, while independents are forced to have more professional approach. At least when you inform indie that you'll pay for wood and hides, they'd never bring a pile of bone and salt, expecting to be paid because they are "hired to hunt", and they don't come for money when they have spent a whole month killing scrab to make a new set of armor for themselves.

Needless to say that I still consider ideas to make clanned hunters more useless and more expensive as step back.

Schedule is needed when clan can't offer goals to work on, and offers processes instead.

Point me in the direction of a clan with tiered positions (i.e. servant, crafter, guard, hunter, officer, agent, etc...) that has consistently had an active PC Leader without interruption, and I would agree.  The reality, however, is that schedules serve a dual purpose: to provide direction in the absence of a PC leader and clearly defined goals, and to encourage self discipline and interaction, especially within newer players that may not see a benefit in working through "boring" tasks that may well need to be done.

You seem to be arguing, but didn't you in fact restate my phrase.

No, I can't point at such a clan, but please repay favor and point in the direction of a clan that, to your honest belief, was saved by schedules. There were clans that lived through hard times, but I don't believe schedules had any role in clan's survival. In fact if I were to choose between any criminal organization that doesn't have schedules and any clan that has them, then I'd bet that criminals last more. Without new hires they too will die eventually, but those are going to be "normal" deaths, neither I-am-bored-suicides nor mass storing.

I have successfully led a good many clans, both new and established.  While I didn't have schedules for many of the "new" clans, I appreciated scheduling in some of the old clans we had if for no other reason than to provide direction to players who logged in at off times or managed to miss me when I was present.  Schedules provide you (the leader) with an idea of where to find your employees at a given time/day, and that is also a useful benefit.

I think schedules are sometime necessary, but always evil. They help leader by providing ultimate answer "follow schedule" to every question "what am I to do now?". But I doubt they help in any other way.

As grunt, I don't mind spending parts of my time online to polish armor and weapons, to guard taverns and gates, to spar and sleep. But sometime, when I do it according to the time I play on, it leads to unwanted extremes.
Phrase about latrines from previous post wasn't intended to pick at any clan in particular, but was devoted to sweet memories of my character who managed to login four times in a row at Nekrete afternoon or very close to.
And my sorrow isn't about latrines per see; it's about the fact that you almost always have someone to spar with, sometime you have someone to guard together with, there is rare someone to chat with while you sharpen your sword, but I always seem to twink my dung-sweeping skill alone. So, whatever schedule encourages players to do is moot point at best.

[Jarod550]

Touche.  

Touch your what?

No way!

Jarod

[LoD]

Schedule is needed when clan can't offer goals to work on, and offers processes instead.

You seem to be arguing, but didn't you in fact restate my phrase.[/quote]

No.  Your phrase was that schedule is needed (and only needed by your lack of conditions) when the clan can't offer goals to work on.

I contend that there shouldn't be a choice between schedules and clan goals.  I certainly believe you can have a great time operating in an environment that holds both.  Most clan schedules provide a structure and pace to the character's interaction that reinforces other aspects of their profession than those most closely associated with raising skills.

No, I can't point at such a clan, but please repay favor and point in the direction of a clan that, to your honest belief, was saved by schedules. There were clans that lived through hard times, but I don't believe schedules had any role in clan's survival.

The T'zai-Byn is a clan that benefited immensely from the implementation of a scheduled system.  The quality of RP, mercenary atmosphere and general potential for meaningful and entertaining PC-PC interaction that encouraged players to experience non-combat oriented portions of their living all improved substantially.  It isn't always about survival, but whether a system is better with a schedule than without.  In that case, I honestly believe the T'zai-Byn is a better clan with the schedule than without.

I think schedules are sometime necessary, but always evil. They help leader by providing ultimate answer "follow schedule" to every question "what am I to do now?". But I doubt they help in any other way.

See my answer above as to the other benefits/help schedules can lend to a clan that aren't simply answering the quetsion, "what do I do now".

And my sorrow isn't about latrines per see; it's about the fact that you almost always have someone to spar with, sometime you have someone to guard together with, there is rare someone to chat with while you sharpen your sword, but I always seem to twink my dung-sweeping skill alone. So, whatever schedule encourages players to do is moot point at best.

It is a moot point only from your vantage point.  As someone who spent over a RL year in command at the T'zai-Byn, where the illustrious dung-sweeping mostly occurs, I whole-heartedly disagree.  If you played someone in that clan as long, feel free to prove me wrong and give details.  Otherwise, I don't consider you qualified to really comment on the validity of that schedule as it pertains to the RP amidst the different ranks within that clan.  Which is fine.  Your opinions are just that, and so are mine.  But my experience in both that clan, and with others, is that well conceived schedules are always a benefit.

I will grant you that poorly conceived schedules are not particular desired and can have a negative impact on its playerbase as a result.

-LoD

[X-D]

I like the Byn schedule and think its needed myself, But then, it is a quasi-military merc clan, simply makes sense.

But, for many other clans, schedules make far less sense, at least the schedules I've seen in them.

Actually, I've yet to see a schedule in any other clan that actually works, maybe because almost all of them are copies of the byn schedule and simply not tailored properly to the clan.