Commoner houses

[kelviksson]

Bringing up an idea from a recent post (player-staff meeting 2006), I hoped to spark a discussion about Commoner houses.

The four I am aware of, or have heard of, are...

The Tzai' Bynn.

The Guild

The Bards

The atrium

Now...These are fine, but where are the others? Where's the commoner house that brings in merchants, architects, philosophers, The one that brings up rights for the people in the senate.

What about the commoner house that rises up in protest of the oppression on the peoples of the city?(mainly allanak) [Obviously this gets destroyed but it's fun to have some revolting every now and then.]

Point is, I think there should be atleast a few more commer houses or Clans that spring up. I think some focus should be put a little more on the culture of the cities. (Not that I don't love the fighting, I do, it's just nice to switch up roles every now and then) For instance I would love to have a character involved in politics, and currently, only nobles and up are involved in any form of politics. (to my understanding atleast.) I think some new ideas could bring alot to the game.

Does anyone else feel the same way or have any thought on this?

[amoeba]

Kadius
Sallar
Kurac

to name three.  These are not noble houses. Therefore, common.

[kelviksson]

Kadius is NOT a noble house? I thought the three houses you named all had, essntially, a family member of some noble ranking or another...Perhaps I am wrong...

[Tamarin]

You are absolutely, completely wrong.  The three that amoeba named are 100% commoner.  Take a moment to read the Zalanthan timeline, and you'll see where they pop up.

[Jarod550]

Kadius is NOT a noble house? I thought the three houses you named all had, essntially, a family member of some noble ranking or another...Perhaps I am wrong...

You are wrong, they have agents and such that work for the house which have great influence, but no where near a nobles clout so to say.

Jarod

[Anonymous]

Okay, but they still have nearly as much influence and authority as a noble house do they not? I most defenitelly had a commoner killed by a templar for backtalking a kadian...maybe even a salarri too...

[Yokunama]

The Tzai' Bynn.

The Guild

The Bards

The atrium

Those are just organized groups.

[Spud]

Okay, but they still have nearly as much influence and authority as a noble house do they not? I most defenitelly had a commoner killed by a templar for backtalking a kadian...maybe even a salarri too...

Not really. Merchant houses are the suppliers of the Known World, therefore the templarate and noble houses try to stay in good terms with them. The templarate, being the power they are, probably wouldn't think twice about making a merchant's life a little easier if all they needed to do was kill a simple commoner. Merchant houses don't have authority over non-employees, but they do have important friends that have the authority.

[Folker]

From what I understood, all merchant houses are commoner houses. That's why they're called merchant houses, and not noble houses. The thing to it though is that those merchant houses are rich and powerful. And the main reason why they still exist is that they arent trying to rebel in the cities they're allowed to do business in.

Though I must say, Kurac is reaching the point of a Noble house inside Luirs Outpost, since beyond being a group of various people that self profit by cooperating, most of the control within that house is family based. Atleast that was my observation.

[Yokunama]

Okay, but they still have nearly as much influence and authority as a noble house do they not? I most defenitelly had a commoner killed by a templar for backtalking a kadian...maybe even a salarri too...

Not really. Merchant houses are the suppliers of the Known World, therefore the templarate and noble houses try to stay in good terms with them. The templarate, being the power they are, probably wouldn't think twice about making a merchant's life a little easier if all they needed to do was kill a simple commoner.

It'd also allow the templar an opportunity to obtain a valuable item/gift from the house.

[Cuusardo]

House = family

Noble House = highborn family of blood better than that of the common people, granted their titles by Muk Utep or Tektolnes

Merchant House = family of powerful merchants of blood better than that of the majority of commoners, granted titles by their accomplishments in the known world

There are no other widely accepted Houses in the known world other than these.  The bardic circles of Tuluk are families in their own right, but there is a reason they're called Circles and not Houses.  The Guild, the Byn, and the Atrium are organizations, and not families.

[kelviksson]

:oops:

Guess I oughta think before I speak...

[ale six]

Where's the commoner house that... *snip*... brings up rights for the people in the senate.

What about the commoner house that rises up in protest of the oppression on the peoples of the city?(mainly allanak) [Obviously this gets destroyed but it's fun to have some revolting every now and then.]

That made me giggle. Protest oppression? Bring up rights in the senate? Hahahahaha.

For instance I would love to have a character involved in politics, and currently, only nobles and up are involved in any form of politics. (to my understanding atleast.) I think some new ideas could bring alot to the game.

This isn't really true. Large-scale city politics (like what might happen in the Allanaki Senate or the similar thing in Tuluk) might be restricted to nobles, but even that stuff is way over the head of a pc junior noble anyway.

Merchant Houses (Salarr, Kadius, Kurac) all have politics internally, with each other, and with the noble houses.  You could also play an aide to a noble or templar and get tastes of political stuff that way.

[Folker]

For instance I would love to have a character involved in politics, and currently, only nobles and up are involved in any form of politics. (to my understanding atleast.) I think some new ideas could bring alot to the game.

I wonder if all those proposals to allow spice trading in Allanak that are mentioned in senate's vote history were completely the proposing noble's idea. Without any funded suggestion from some Kuraci people, or some crafty concubine hooking the noble on spice.

[amoeba]

Guess I oughta think before I speak...

No the questions are fine and it's a learning process.  Never be afraid to ask a question.

Plus, this does beg the fact that it is often hard to easily identify who is a noble and who is a family member of a common house.  Yes, we all know about the signet rings, what I am talking about is play style.  Somethimes I don't think there is enough polarity. A noble should be screamingly obvious as a noble I would think.

[Maybe42or54]

Now...These are fine, but where are the others? Where's the commoner house that brings in merchants, architects, philosophers, The one that brings up rights for the people in the senate.

They don't have philospohers. Philosophers think too much on the greener grass and start getting the other un educated commoners to go along with them because it sounds good.

Their might be noble philosophers, but they aren't thinking about what would be good for the common populace.

What about the commoner house that rises up in protest of the oppression on the peoples of the city?(mainly allanak) [Obviously this gets destroyed but it's fun to have some revolting every now and then.]

There wouldn't be a whole house that rose up in protest. They'd know it was death, even if it was a friendly protest. People can still think rebellion, but the templerate likes to keep those people from meeting each other. How? By making you think that everyone loves the sorcerer king. Choose the wrong guy and you are fucked.

For instance I would love to have a character involved in politics, and currently, only nobles and up are involved in any form of politics. (to my understanding atleast.) I think some new ideas could bring alot to the game.

Does anyone else feel the same way or have any thought on this?

Any form of politics? There are politics in almost every area of the game. Aides can get involved in house to house politics quite easily, I did it and I wasn't even a full aide yet. A little unrealistic, but there you have it.

[My 2 sids]

Maybe this discussion is really about PC bloodline (Noble vs Commoner) so much as wanting to see some clans in which organization is distinctly different from that of these HUGE houses (both Noble and Merchant).  

Create organizations that are very small (maybe even where the PCs outnumber or are in equal number to VNPCs) so the dynamics are different.  I know, people are going to say "But anyone can get a group of people together in game)... I say that's true but beside the point.  All real organizations need an infrastructure.  I'm not sure a great infrastructure is easily obtainable in game.  

Here's my idea:  PROJECTS.  I'll agree it's unfair to ask Imms to use precious and infinite time and resources into player-created clans that will probably never last too long.  But, what if the staff were to do finite amount of help?  Let's say the Imms would be willing to help create one to three small "project" player-groups every other month or so?   Here's what I see happening.

John and Jane player come up with a commoner clan:  let's say a group of caravan drivers.  The Imm can help John and Jane create that infrastructure getting players interested (like announcing the group is forming); starting them out with enough sids where the group has a good chance:  food, equipment, housing, etc; and then OOC organization where in two months this small Commoner house has a real chance to make it in the game world.   After two months or so... it will be obvious if this group does or doesn't have what it takes to succeed.  


The other thought is to have more players (and thus their characters) open up to the fact that in such a harsh world communal living may be an option.   Even "lone" characters should think nothing about having a small group that they rely on.

[kelviksson]

Maybe42or54, you're saying that there cannot be philosophers outside the noble houses? I understand your view, but I would think that there are some intelligent commoners.  Of course they would not be thinking of things like frederick douglass style, about the rights of people and slaves. (Not for awhile atleast) But perhaps on the level of the famous greek scholars.  Questioning scientific things, finding reasons behind nature's doings other than simply going along with it.

I find it hard to believe no commoner would ever be smart enough to start experimenting with some ideas the rest of society thought pointless. Like perhaps a scholar who actually studies gith, trying understand their motives. (Obviously society would think this person insane, and he would be in grave danger)

Or maybe a commoner interested in science, wanting to understand where valuable minerals come from...(Metal). These are just things that are examples, that I would like to see more of. I have a crappy way of trying to explain my thought, but I'm trying.

About houses rising in protest, look at meleth's circle, those were rioters. Not exactelly a house, but they came together for a purpose, to protest an act they thought outrageous. I suppose a house is a bit redical, but the Templaret can't stop -everyone- from protesting the laws.

Not that Armageddon is out of line, I love Arm, and I like it the way it is now. I'm not saying things need to be changed, the game is perfectly fine as is, I'm just trying to throw some ideas out here.

[Maybe42or54]

Maybe42or54, you're saying that there cannot be philosophers outside the noble houses? I understand your view, but I would think that there are some intelligent commoners.  Of course they would not be thinking of things like frederick douglass style, about the rights of people and slaves. (Not for awhile atleast) But perhaps on the level of the famous greek scholars.  Questioning scientific things, finding reasons behind nature's doings other than simply going along with it.

I'm saying there are no unaffiliated commoner philosphers that live trying to find out how to make things better. It doesn't put food in the mouth or even water for that. I'm personally thinking it'd be hard to prove anything scientific if a magicker can walk up, say "poof" and they can disprove that theory.

There are probably exceptions.

About houses rising in protest, look at meleth's circle, those were rioters. Not exactelly a house, but they came together for a purpose, to protest an act they thought outrageous. I suppose a house is a bit redical, but the Templaret can't stop -everyone- from protesting the laws.

No, they'll just throw flaming green skulls at the crowd if they get rowdy. Making even the toughest one there question his thinking.

[Cuusardo]

Most people who think "outside the box" end up vanishing for one reason or another.  Or they get killed flat out.  That's why you don't see people making their living as philosophers.

[palomar]

Addingly, it's hard to be a philosopher if you can't write. The widespread knowledge of writing and the greek alphabet were important causes of the golden age of ancient Greece. Also, in our world as in Zalanthas, the low classes couldn't afford wasting their time on thinking. That was a luxury reserved for the wealthy classes. The philosophers of those times were often influenced by thoughts and ideas from distant lands (the greeks adopted the science of mathematics from Egypt and Mesopotamia), a situation we don't really have in Zalanthas.

I can imagine a noble or even someone with a decent ranking in a merchant house to have the luxury of spending time to think about how and why some things are, but a person who has to struggle for each piece of obsidian? No. Also, those in a somewhat wealthy position would know where their power and wealth hail from and would be careful not to do, or think, too much of things that could possibly risk their position.
That said, I don't think you should rule out the option of reasoning about things in the game world, if it suits your character and the concept. However, full time philosophers seem to (and should, imo) be fated to be labeled as "dangerous agitators" and lead short lives with brutal ends. The Sorcerer Kings don't want their underlings to think very much. It's not very profitable or good for the stability of the city-states.

[Jarod550]

I agree on some points with the original poster, but to the helpers comment about people "who think outside the box" ending up dead or ignored or whatnot.  I think that's silly.

Arm strives to be the mud of realistic playing right?  Okay well is it realistic to think that EVERY person who tries something bizarre or thinking differently or is a philosopher or however you want to put it, WILL be crushed?

Granted it should be hard and difficult, but never impossible.

To try and run or play in a mud that claims to push realism to the extreme, then basically say "Things aren't changing" is really to be throwing realism away.

If I were to kidnap you and tell you "You can do anything you like." But anytime you find something to do, take it away from you, or stop you from doing it, while confining you in the way I want things done, can you really "Do anything you'd like?"  No.

I haven't been here the 10 years half of you others have been here, but I've seen some shit in my time.  I think that some of you helpers, staff and players are so stuck in doing things the "old way" that you're too proud or silly to accept or adapt to new ideas.  And who knows, if I was the 10 year player who started out here in th beginning maybe I would be too.

But I'm not, and half of the people playing are probably not.  The reason I joined and play arm is because I can do damn near ANYTHING I want, if I work for it hard enough.  Who is to say one day that there won't be a clan or group of people to work their way up so high as to build their own city and enact their own noble houses and great houses?  I don't know how the staff will react to such a thing, but I know as a player, it would be GREAT if I could make that happen or see it happen.

Imagine, the simple commoner who starts out in the rinth, goes out makes a name for himself, gathers enough people to his side, starts a clan, then the clan becomes so powerful and influencial that they build themselves a small outpost, outpost develops into a city, then noble houses are born among the leaders of said clan.

IMO, That would be "great", that would make a difference in the world, THAT would make armageddon better....

But the way a good deal of you talk, is that the oppression is absolute, anyone trying something radical will be squashed by the oh so mighty sorcerer kings.

Well I guess then that the reality or perceived reality only goes so far is comfortable to the game staff, and the old players, and reality ends when it goes "out of the box"

Jarod

[Maybe42or54]

I agree on some points with the original poster, but to the helpers comment about people "who think outside the box" ending up dead or ignored or whatnot.  I think that's silly.

Arm strives to be the mud of realistic playing right?  Okay well is it realistic to think that EVERY person who tries something bizarre or thinking differently or is a philosopher or however you want to put it, WILL be crushed?

Granted it should be hard and difficult, but never impossible.

To try and run or play in a mud that claims to push realism to the extreme, then basically say "Things aren't changing" is really to be throwing realism away.

If I were to kidnap you and tell you "You can do anything you like." But anytime you find something to do, take it away from you, or stop you from doing it, while confining you in the way I want things done, can you really "Do anything you'd like?"  No.

First off, the mud is a very conservative world, it doesn't change. Why?
Icly, Nobles and templars already have it good, why change anything? Everytime a commoner gets a "Breakthrough" they challenge that. That just happens to be a block wall. Making change to the entire world so very hard.


And as for that second part, they can do anythign they want. They just deal with the consequences of you stopping them. Keeps them supressed, makes them depressed and they settle with less so they don't get that taken away too.

Editted to add:
That is realistic for the world to not change very much and accusing people of being "silly" is rather insulting. Specially when most of the time, you are the one joking around in the thread. When people are having a serious discussion.

There is a lot of change every week in the game, it may not be earth shattering, but its still there and you should acknowledge it. Or choose not to and choose the route less taken. Hassling everyone other then you for not liking an idea.

Normally I would try to offer up ideas to try and make the original idea better. This just isn't an idea I like at all for Zalanthas.

[spawnloser]

I believe that Cuusardo (the helper mentioned) meant by her comment that 'thinking outside of the box' resulted in death/dissappearance was in reference to philosophers and rebels...not to people that are creative.

Of course, there are criminal elements that are always thinking outside of the box as far as the normal populace goes, and yes, they get taken care of whenever the Templarate can.  The difference between these and a philosoipher is that they hide from The Law, whereas a philosopher is hard-pressed to make income without being somewhat public and easier to find by the Templarate.

[Rindan]

I am not sure how this got onto philosphers... but back to the topic...

Merchant Houses are not Noble Houses, but they are not 'commoner' clans any more then House Borsail is.  Living as a Kadian merchant is a completely different experience from living as Joe Commoner.  Yes, you are technically a commoner, but your position in a merchant house puts you above the rest.  A Templar doesn't think twice before killing a random commoner.  A Templar does think twice before killing a member of a merchant house.

Merchant Houses have broad power, while Noble Houses have very narrow power.  The power of House Borsail doesn't extend much beyond the city walls and some Allanaki owned outposts.  If a Lord form House Borsail shows up in Tuluk he will have no chance to affect the politics there unless he shows up with an army.  Merchant Houses on the other hand have a great deal of power not only in their outposts, but a fair amount of power in BOTH city states.  Because Merchant Houses power stretches across the entire known world and into every single civilized city and outpost, they are as easily as powerful and as important in the overall world wide scheme of things as any one noble house in their own way.

The point of more commoner clans is to have characters that are more stereotypically Zalanthas.  We rail against people who decide to be that one special unique individual who is suicidal enough to stand up to a Templar, but are fine that almost every single clanned player works within a rich and powerful organization.  When everyone can join a clan with free water, it isn't special any more.  When everyone works directly under a horrifically rich and powerful person compared to the average Zalanthian, you got a warped view as to what Zalanthas looks like.

I personally would like to see more staff run 'low brow' clans.  There are plenty of clans that can reach in and screw with world history.  Why not one or two that are utterly trivial or just foot notes?  For example:

A tavern organization:  Gives players the ability to play as servers and bar tenders, set up card games, hire out bards, craft food and drink, spread the gossip, rent out sleeping rooms, and in general be the lubrication to make the commoner world chug along smoothly.

Elf/Human extended family conflict:  Set up two commoner families that are in a field of direct conflict within a city.  For flavor, make one an extended human family, and make the other a fair sized elven city tribe.  Have these large commoner families tend to hire out independents.  Build these clans with a mentality that becoming too rich or powerful is bed so that the Templars don't step on them.  Let this extended human family and elven tribe in the heart of Allanak carry on a low intensity rivalry.  The rivalry would be most economic and social, but it might occasional involve a killing or two.  The point of these clans is to let people play 'true' commoner roles that are filled with internal and external social strife.  They have external enemies and internal strife when Cousin Amos gets involved with a half-breed chick and the family sits him down for a stern talking to.  They also offer an avenue for independents to get involved without getting entangled in nobility/templar affairs.

Can this stuff be done without staff intervention?  To a large extent you probably could.  The real issue is sustainability.  Kurac doesn't continue to exist because Kuraci players are better then Amos the 'rinth rat.  Kurac continues to exist because when everyone dies in one horrible encounter and there is no clear leader to take over, they pick up the pieces recruit more PC leaders.

[Cuusardo]

I agree on some points with the original poster, but to the helpers comment about people "who think outside the box" ending up dead or ignored or whatnot.  I think that's silly.

My name is Cuusardo, thank you.

Try it sometime.  Play a PC that's lived in Allanak all his life, and start telling people that you don't believe that Tektolnes created the world and Allanak, and that Tuluk isn't rightfully property of the Highlord.

Play a tribal with different beliefs than those crazy city folk, and go around Tuluk preaching to people about how wonderful the gifts of the elements are.

Then sit back, and watch what happens to your PC.

[Tarx]

Indeed.  Or play a southerner living in Tuluk that hates Muk Utep.  You get the idea I hope--it's just not going to fly.  Your character will either end up dead or wishing he or she was dead.

[kelviksson]

Not trying to get into arguments, but when I say philosopher, i'm not talking about people going. "I don't think Tektolnes created the world, or is the rightful lord." NO, I'm talking about something like...

(Why is it, that if you come from the rinth', you can never have decent intentions. You will always be a thief. A killer.) This is not the case, but a view that people have, atleast through my 20+ characters.

Question things like history. Why did the dragon leave? I would -love- to see historians dig into the past. Why did the dragon leave his empire? Why would it return to attack Tuluk? Exactelly what races of people were citizens of the empire under the council of kings. Was it just humans? Did the old empire's claim give anyone in it's territory citizenship? Did our social heirarchy come down from the previous empire?

Some of you are taking things to the extreme, and i'm not gonna drag the topic out if it doesn't seem realistic to people. I just think it would be fun IC to have some people have a broader concept. I wouldn't mind playing a character Templars hated for making people think, (no mater how short lived it would turn out)

:wink:

[Cuusardo]

#1:  The Labyrinth is a lawless area, filled with crime.  Naturally, everybody who comes from there will be a criminal lowlife.  Your PC might not be, but that is the widely accepted view of what this place and its inhabitants are.  Very few people think differently.

#2: Information is given on a need to know basis, and the templars will tell you what you believe.  Why did the dragon leave?  Because Tek/Muk saved you from it and made it go away.  Why?  Because he's the protector of the city you live in.  What happened before them?  You can try to find out, but you might not like the answers you find.

Tribals would see things differently, and that is all up to the views of the tribe.  In that case, the elders tell you what to believe.

[Medena]

Cuusardo, I might be wrong, but I think Kelviksson threw out those questions as examples of what a Zalanthan "philosopher" might ponder and not for the purpose of getting actual answers.

{edited to add: on a second reading, I guess you were trying to explain why even these sorts of philosophical questions would not exist.}

So, don't mind me!

[Maybe42or54]

Question things like history. Why did the dragon leave? I would -love- to see historians dig into the past. Why did the dragon leave his empire? Why would it return to attack Tuluk? Exactelly what races of people were citizens of the empire under the council of kings. Was it just humans? Did the old empire's claim give anyone in it's territory citizenship? Did our social heirarchy come down from the previous empire?

There is a whole NOBLE, unplayable house made of Scholors in the south.

[Tlaloc]

There is also one in Tuluk, as well as a whole Templarate devoted to it, not to mention the Bardic Circle, who is always looking for stuff to write about.

Edited to add:

To bring this topic back on course, Merchant Houses count as 'Commoner' Houses. Typically a Merchant House (Great or Otherwise) will always have to bow down to any governmental group. While they do have vast amounts of wealth at their disposal (and this can often equate to 'power'), they walk the razors edge often when dealing with the Nobility.

I feel that folks are forgetting other organizations such as Tribal groups: the Tan Muark, Benjari/Arabet, and several desert and city-elf tribes. Many of these carry unique aspects of the 'commoner' persona...sure you aren't "from" the cities, but you're still lowlife scum.

As for new groups, you might see more of these creeping up as time goes on, but remember that the staff has to balance things such as player numbers, vs.  the amount of staff oversight/work required, vs. how much they add to the game, etc. etc. etc.