True grit

[Jakahri]

It's been asked before, but I'd like to get some different opinions from the newer players that have recently joined ArmageddonMUD as well.

Do you feel that the world of Zalanthas is truly harsh and gritty, as reflected in the city-states and the desert.

What do you think helps define the world as "gritty"?

Is there anything you think we as players and staff could add to the world to make it better reflect the atmosphere that is meant to be presented?

[Delirium]

Depends on where you are. In my experience:

Luir's Outpost, the "desert" areas, they have grit up the wazoo.

Allanak, somewhat.

Tuluk, not so much.

[Ghost]

Agreed with Delirium.

Also add Labyrinth though.  It just has a ridiculous amount of grit sometimes.  Other times, it is just good amount of grit.

[Rindan]

I voted no.  Why?  Zalanthas is massively top heavy in terms of organizations.  Instead of the game being made up of organizations that represent the general 'gritty' populace, it is made up of the few massively powerful and rich movers and shakers that make up a small minority of the populace.  If you look at the clan list, remove all the defunct clans and get rid of the desert tribes, every single clan with the exception of the Byn and the Guild is a clan that represents the few rich and powerful.  If all of the staff organizations are focused around massively powerful and rich clans, the game is going to end up top heavy.  Borsail, Kadians, and Winrothol don't struggle to survive.  They wouldn't even notice if suddenly the thirst rates in the city were cranked up to reasonable rates and food costs doubled.

This organization has it advantages and disadvantages.  The advantages are obvious.  Be a member of a massive and powerful organization and you can probably do things to affect the entire world.  

The disadvantage is that the 'gritty' lower end of the game is massively fragmented, incomplete, and receives far too much attention by the powers that be.  Roll a 'rinth elf and I can almost promise you that you will be on a first name basis with a Templar within a days worth of play time.  

Try playing a spice dealer in the 'rinth you quickly run into the fact that if you are selling to five people for a few 'sid profit, you are selling to everyone who will do spice in all of Allanak.  Further, if you try and expand to selling in the commons, you pretty much start a timer on your life.  Someone is going to tell a Templar, and that Templar is not going only going to care enough to find one miserable spice dealer, but he will easily pick you out of the hundreds of thousands of other elves in the city after two quick bar checks.

The problem with the gritty half of the game boils down to the following:
1)  Lack of structure.  Organizations in the lower half of the game are almost always purely player run.  This means that in order for an organization to exist, you need at least one player who is willing to give his every waking hour to the game.  The second that player takes his hands off, the organization dies.  Without an imm to constantly maintain a clan, the clan dies the second there isn't a leader who isn't giving it constant attention.

2)  Rich clans drain the player base of 'gritty' players and leaders.  Trying to start something in the 'rinth is an almost always a hopeless battle to find one or two regular players.  It certainly happens from time to time, but it is very hit or miss.  Further, even when you have something going, the pool of people you can involve is extremely limited unless you involve 'rich' clans.  There are gaping holes in the organization at lower levels.  It is entirely possible for there to be not a single even moderately skilled lock pick in all of Allanak who isn't apart of a rich clan.  Finding a guy who knows about poisons or a spice dealer can be even worse.  Sure, some times these roles are filled, but often times they are completely empty.

3)  Gritty players cannibalize each other.  Start a gang war in the 'rinth and kill the other gang, and you just killed off all the other gangs in the 'rinth.  Every time you do something to undermine a fellow 'gritty' organization, you are also undermining your chance for continued RP due to the low population of players participating.

4)  The rich clans take too much interesting in the 'gritty' part of the game and tend to squish them flat.  Play a 'rinth tavern sitter, make some connections, start something going, and then get ready for everyone you know to die very quickly.  It only takes one Templar or militiman to purge the entire city of its criminal element.  The attrition rate to lost characters is high enough from other dangers.  Throw on top of that Templars and militiamen who have a trivially easy time spotting and identifying criminals, and it makes keeping a steady supply of gritty players damn near impossible.

The solution to all of this is simple and obvious.  Close some rich clans and add some imm supported 'gritty' clans.  As much as I might personally like it, I won't hold my breath waiting for House Tor and House Oash to be shut down in favor of a city elf tribe and human commoner house.

[Intrepid]

Funny you should say that...the staff was more than happy to re-open a
certain city elf tribe for us, and we had no short supply of players wanting
to join--in fact, our clan imm had to curtail the number of players coming
into the clan, because we were ready to have 5+ active players with us.
It even reached a point where another city elf clan was in the works of
being opened, but my pc bit it before I could see that happen.

What I'm mainly trying to say is this: So few players contact the imms for
possibilities.  Try it and see what happens--you may be surprised at the
level to which they'll support a gritty clan.

[Anonymous]

But... but.... but.... but.... what would we do without the incessant redundancy of world-altering plots that always seem to stem from the same origin?

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[My 2 sids]

I also voted no after reading Ridan's post.  

To me a gritty life-style isn't exactly unbelievably hard as it is tediously harsh.  The little day-to-day obstacles that keep one oppressed no matter how good life may seem.  These aren't hidden politics or massive world-altering schemes, these are very well known facts of a harsh life.  Death by water torture rather than swift and huge?  And as far as 'city grit' goes; we're missing a lot of it in game.

I think the first step to add that gritty feeling would be to take away a lot of the stability most PCs gain in city life.  A lot of that stability comes from employment so I think that's one key thing that needs to change.  First, start by not employing as many PCs.  I'm not saying take away all money, but there are ways to get money to PCs w/o offering life-time commitments.  Nobles can offer a few sids for more temporary work.  Instead of just nobles given money have a few key (special applied) PCs who from a OOC standpoint do the same as nobles:  pass out funds and start plots.  Once employment is gained, don't make life suddenly easy.  Maybe recruits only make money (no room and board) or recourses are offered at reduced rates instead of given flat out.  Nor should low-ranking employees get much social security.  They aren't slaves... there shouldn't be many nobles or high-ranking officers who really take so much offence if some recruit gets teased.  Most importantly employers should understand that competition is good!  As long as they cooperate enough to do their jobs who cares that everyone get along?  Shouldn't they be trying to claw their way to the top anyhow?

The second part of stability comes from security:  namely, the templarate and soldiers.  There isn't anything here that individual rights are over the need to control the general populous.  I'd love to see a templar and soldiers storm a local watering hole sometime and simply demand to search and question everyone in the hopes they might catch someone breaking the law (see last paragraph for why lower to mid-ranking organizational members would still have to give into this treatment.)  For players who like the petty little "he said/ she said" fights take them to the soldiers or templarate; there is no 'innocent until proven guilty here'... a templar may take swift action to find who is guilty (heck, maybe both parties are) and tax them both right there on the spot (in 'nak heck, beat em up).  Again, we aren't talking anything huge here... little stuff that makes city life hard.

[Grimoirae]

I know I could get branded as a pacifist, but you know what I reckon could help with more grit? More non-lethal combat.

At the moment, it seems to be that fight breaks out = people die. Fine and dandy, but when it leaves someone waiting 24 hours or so for a new character, who then needs to time to develop skills to be useful leaves a bit of a gap.

My experiences with tribes from Papua New Guinea who don't see too muchin the way of civilisation have shown that there's plenty of violence and murder alright, but if you look at the ratio of fatal vs. non-fatal violence, it's quite low. A lot of beatings of several men against one to teach a lesson, a few stabbings and fights which usually end at first blood - the loser running off to sulk with family for a couple of days. Sometimes these things go wrong and people die, sometimes it flairs up into massive brawls involving dozens.

I'd like to see more "kick 'em to a pulp, leave 'em in an alley-way" and let them get up and fight another day. Particularly as a good RP'er is going to have to act out being bruised, limping, etc. for a good week or two IG at least before being remotely in condition to return the favour, if they indeed wanted to. Hell, if there was a stat penalty for a RL day or so after being mortally wounded / beaten up that would provide the incentive for laying low and lick wounds as opposed to sleeping, regaining HP and charging right back into the fray.

Mechanics are an issue here, as far as I can tell, if either party can't flee, combat can't be stopped until a mortally wounded / death occurs. But if something can be worked out there, with a little more non-fatal fighting we could see the problem of say, a gang warfare in the 'Rinth not meaning all gangs in there wiped out bar yours, or all the criminals suddenly ceasing to exist after a Templar gets bored.

But hey, that's just me. Discuss.

[Intrepid]

If you take away stability in the cities, those cities will cease to exist.  It's
because of employment and a less harsh life that people stay there.

[Anonymous]

a gang warfare in the 'Rinth not meaning all gangs in there wiped out bar yours, or all the criminals suddenly ceasing to exist after a Templar gets bored.

Rindan was, I think, referring to the low quanitity of such PC clans within the gameworld. As a result, when a gang-war begins, it usually ends in the defeat of the opposite gang; and since no other PC clan exists in opposition, there is now only one gang left..... This doesn not imply that one clan absolutely exterminated the other, it simply involves that the other clan was destroyed (the necessary leadership removed and the rest disbanded).

I concur with Rindan's points on the matter, more groups that represent the -true- Zalanthas should be far more common in-game. I, however, do not demand the elimation (PC-wise) of Noble and Merchant clans, but I would certainly enjoy seeing a much more favorable (in favor of gritty clans) ratio of gritty clans to top tier clans. I feel that with only one or two such 'top tier' clans, it would also illustrate the -difficulty- of attaining a position in such a clan. As it stands, any newbie can join House Borsail as an extremely well-payed guard.

Funny you should say that...the staff was more than happy to re-open a
certain city elf tribe for us, and we had no short supply of players wanting
to join--in fact, our clan imm had to curtail the number of players coming
into the clan, because we were ready to have 5+ active players with us.
It even reached a point where another city elf clan was in the works of
being opened, but my pc bit it before I could see that happen.

What I'm mainly trying to say is this: So few players contact the imms for
possibilities. Try it and see what happens--you may be surprised at the
level to which they'll support a gritty clan.

Exactly, without Immortal supervision, gritty clans such as that usually disappear without producing much of an impact. Many such groups sprouted at one time or another within the 'rinth and elsewhere, and it certainly is commendable to those that managed to construct and lead them, but they -always- vanish rather quickly as per Rindan's post.

I think that Rindan is proposing a constancy of grittyness in the sense of Noble and Merchant houses: gritty clans that do not vanish over RL days, but persist with equal longevity.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Intrepid]

Exactly, without Immortal supervision, gritty clans such as that usually disappear without producing much of an impact. Many such groups sprouted at one time or another within the 'rinth and elsewhere, and it certainly is commendable to those that managed to construct and lead them, but they -always- vanish rather quickly as per Rindan's post.

The clan didn't vanish.  It's still there.

[Anonymous]

The clan didn't vanish. It's still there.

I was referring to the clan that you attempted to create, but failed (at least that's what I inferred from your previous post). I was, however, not referring to the Imm supported Haruch Kemad clan.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Olgaris]

Just to put things into perspective, there are 3 underworldly gritty organizations with immortal support in Allanak alone. Granted, one of those hasn't had its immortal around for a while, but said immortal will be returning soon. The problem is, recruiting for these organizations is near impossible because of the seeming lack of player interest for those roles. It seems to me, most players want a higher profile, where they feel like they can change the world.

I do agree with the point that more non-lethal combat could make a world of difference. MERCY ON is your friend. People need to realize that they aren't necessarily going to die because they left that bastard they mugged alive. Sure, (s)he might try to retaliate. Or they might live in fear hoping that tough ass mofo doesn't rob them again. Try it.

It's been said that there will not be any more immortal-supported clans added to the game. However, if anyone has any viable ideas that they'd like to try in game, go for it. Sure, if the leader PC dies the group might fade out. That's life. Another one can be started up to take its place. With the new apartment code, there's nothing stopping people from making little pseudo-clans.

Be the change you want to see in Zalanthas.

[Intrepid]

I was referring to the clan that you attempted to create, but failed (at least that's what I inferred from your previous post). I was, however, not referring to the Imm supported Haruch Kemad clan.

But I didn't make the clan.  It was already there.  I think maybe we were
miscommunicating on that point; teach me to post from work.

Just to put things into perspective, there are 3 underworldly gritty organizations with immortal support in Allanak alone. Granted, one of those hasn't had its immortal around for a while, but said immortal will be returning soon. The problem is, recruiting for these organizations is near impossible because of the seeming lack of player interest for those roles. It seems to me, most players want a higher profile, where they feel like they can change the world.

There is actually interest in one of those clans, but some of us were
unaware that the imm was actively recruiting due to the fact that it
hasn't shown up in the listing of active clans in sometime.  I can email
you for more details if you'd like, Olgaris.

[Anonymous]

Just to put things into perspective, there are 3 underworldly gritty organizations with immortal support in Allanak alone. Granted, one of those hasn't had its immortal around for a while, but said immortal will be returning soon. The problem is, recruiting for these organizations is near impossible because of the seeming lack of player interest for those roles. It seems to me, most players want a higher profile, where they feel like they can change the world.

THREEE?E?E?E?E?E?E?E? I've been -trying- to reach these gritty organizations with every such character that I've created (and I've been fond of those characters, especially in the past few months). The problem isn't in the absense of interest, but the absence of recruiters. I saw -one- in over two months, and I would play at various times to see if I could reach more, but nothing .... NOTHING. However, incoherent rambling aside, Rindan was referring to permanent gritty clans, in the same manner as Noble and Merchant houses. The problem with leaders dying and clans vanishing is just that.... leaders dying and clans vanishing. And there can be moments where it would seem that the only job a gritty character like mine can get is working for a fucking NOBLE ...... I AM A DIRTY BUM!!!!

Anyways...I certainly understand -why- the game and clans are set up in such a fashion: players want to drive the world, not simply exist within it.

Returning to the previous topic on gritty clans in Allanak, in all of my years at Armageddon, not once had I been a part of such a clan. I came close a few times, but ultimately failed as a result of the short lived nature of my characters..... come to think of it... maybe that IS the entire problem. Yet, nonetheless, I find it rather comical that a 'rinthi bum experiences far more success being recruited by a Noble than by a fellow, 'rinthi clan.

But I didn't make the clan. It was already there. I think maybe we were
miscommunicating on that point; teach me to post from work.  

Apologies!

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Intrepid]

THREEE?E?E?E?E?E?E?E? I've been -trying- to reach these gritty organizations with every such character that I've created (and I've been fond of those characters, especially in the past few months).

Given the position they're in, these clans are a bit paranoid.  They could
well be active but avoiding others.  I always made it difficult for people
to reach me in those clans--of course, I never played a recruiter either.

Apologies!

No worries.

[My 2 sids]

If you take away stability in the cities, those cities will cease to exist. It's
because of employment and a less harsh life that people stay there.     – Intrepid

Anyways...I certainly understand -why- the game and clans are set up in such a fashion: players want to drive the world, not simply exist within it.   – Anonymous Kank

Every view point is relative.  Even w/o much stability the cities would provide some; this has always been why people have put up with oppressive governments and masters.  
Also relative in perspective would be how players and PC drive the world.  It's simply a matter of how big a 'world' one is talking about.  

Olgaris is correct about there being 'underworld' organizations alone.  However, how gritty can such organizations be when OOCly they have the ability to wield as much power and money as every other legitimate organization?  


I do agree with the point that more non-lethal combat could make a world of difference. MERCY ON is your friend. People need to realize that they aren't necessarily going to die because they left that bastard they mugged alive. Sure, (s)he might try to retaliate. Or they might live in fear hoping that tough ass mofo doesn't rob them again. Try it.  – Olgaris

Absolutely!  What people need to realize is that if we ever polled some of the greatest or longest-lived PCs we'd find a colorful history BECAUSE they lived though things instead of always playing to the death.

[bloodfromstone]

None lethal combat is good stuff. I'd like to see more people use it, as it can create so much intrigue and open up so much character development. I'd like to see more people get left for dead unintentionally (ICly, of course. It's not hard to know if someone is dead OOCly), beaten unconscious or 'taken care of' in Mad Max style execution.

Fun stuff, all around. I'd much rather get to develop a character's change and reactions to a brutal assault than just make a new character every time someone wants my water. I'd also much rather see people who hunker away from my badass PC or try to get revenge on him than just killing someone every time I have an encounter.

[Kalden]

If you want true grit, there's plenty of it in the 'rinth.

Olgaris is correct about there being 'underworld' organizations alone. However, how gritty can such organizations be when OOCly they have the ability to wield as much power and money as every other legitimate organization?

Good point. The underworld organizations are not necessarily that gritty. They're fun and dangerous, but they're not gritty.

If you want the fun, danger, and the grit, stay independent while you do the same things these organizations would do.

[marko]

The closer to the silt sea the grittier you get.

Therefore, if you want grit in spades - go to Red Storm.

If you want a good sized meal of grit - go to Allanak.

Etc

[Anonymous]

Poor halflings.... they must have absolutely no grit...

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Anonymous Underworlder]

Olgaris is correct about there being 'underworld' organizations alone. However, how gritty can such organizations be when OOCly they have the ability to wield as much power and money as every other legitimate organization?

Good point. The underworld organizations are not necessarily that gritty. They're fun and dangerous, but they're not gritty.

Keep in mind, though, that at least some of these underworld organizations don't have the magically refilling bank accounts that the great Noble and Merchant houses do.  In many cases, perhaps you see underworld orgs with a lot of money and influence to throw around, but remember that every single one of those sid may very well have been legitimately earned IC (such as with my current underworld incarnation) , in situations fraught with risk.  We can be a bit like the Byn that way, except we don't even have guaranteed virtual contracts, and we might have to pay monstrous bribes to chars who -do- have magically refilling bank accounts.  Give us scumbags a little credit.   :wink:

If you want the fun, danger, and the grit, stay independent while you do the same things these organizations would do.

In many ways, the leaders of some such organizations may be practically already doing this, working just as hard as independents but with people relying on them as well.

[Folker]

What do you understand by grit exactly anyway?

Are you talking about eat or be eaten kind of grit. Or are you talking about this unique social structure that the game has, that involves various torture, witch hunting, and general tree hugging, fellow brother loving philosophy.

[Seeker]

What do you understand by grit exactly anyway?

Take a look here.


Seeker

[Maybe42or54]

John said and I quote=

An aide however:
* Has to speak well
* Knows that a Templar won't harrass them too much, lest they embarrass the House.
* Can present themselves in a degrading manner (but not as much as a dirty commoner). However they can't wear dirty clothes. They can only wear non-silk clothing.
* Will back-stab for stuff.
* Buys food somewhere between a dirty commoner and a noble.

I don't think an aide has to speak well. They are still born a commoner and raised a commoner. Have less then a year of education (two at the most) If they were born noble house slaves and grew into an aide, that might be a whole different thing.

And why should independants have perfect clothing?Show gttiness by having something stained to show that they don't have enough money to keep their clothes at 100%.

It used to be grittier and it is still a lot grittier than when Xygax posted that, but merchant houses can start telling their hunters they should have torn and tattered gear, but a few stains here and there would be ok. We'd go a long ways if we took the commoner clothing shops and had them automagickally load stained clothing before perfect clothing.

[Folker]

the aide has to speak well because he must be atleast reasonably less disgusting to the noble then any other. Basically, it's not that an aide has to speak well, but only those who speak well are aides.

Thank you for that link, that was a pretty interesting read. I gotta say for an experienced person, it's much grittier to be a part of faction, then be an independant. Some cash flows near Allanak, with specified merchants (like obsidian mining) are clearly created to feed the newbie population, but they are 'immense' cash flows, and that's me talking, a complete newbie.

[jmordetsky]

survive for a while in redstorm, as an indy non-ranger.

[Folker]

*shrug*

From what I read, there's a lot more places in the game that are pretty hard to survive in if you're not a ranger. Sandstorm or no sandstorm. That's more harshness, then grit.

[Intrepid]

Getting rid of facets of the game that other people enjoy to supply your
own favorite facets isn't going to improve the setting.  Gritty does not
equate to outdoorsy.  You just end up making everyone want to make
rangers, who are adept at outdoor survival anyway; it ceases to be a
novelty for rangers to be special individuals.

Allanak and Tuluk have their places in the game for contrast.  If you want
grit, Luirs and Red Storm are waiting as is the Rinth.  Suggesting a
complete abolishment of the wealthy clans because you have no interest
in them is an error on your part.

[amoeba]

Getting rid of facets of the game that other people enjoy to supply your
own favorite facets isn't going to improve the setting.  Gritty does not
equate to outdoorsy.

I think this was well stated. I would also add that without the contrast of the rich minority verses the dirty underclass you will never be able to notice the grit.  If anything, the contrasts need to be notched up more.

[My 2 sids]

I would also add that without the contrast of the rich minority verses the dirty underclass you will never be able to notice the grit. If anything, the contrasts need to be notched up more.  

Absolutely Amoeba.  But I think what Thunder Lord (and others who talk about closeing some of the clans) were trying to say mirrors what you're saying: there needs to be that different to highlight the grit.  

Getting rid of facets of the game that other people enjoy to supply your own favorite facets isn't going to improve the setting.

True enough.  But when I look at what Thunder Lord is saying I don't see him taking away that much.  Yes, closing the some clans would take away from a particular job or color scheme for a PC.  But, the over all type of character would still be represented by one or two houses remaining open.


I guess over-all, by reading through all the posts, is that it comes down to player commitment.  It's not just a game thing, sometimes it is the player's responsibility to start role-playing that type of world.  Sure a few sids tax and water may ripple the idea of grit.  But, it won't be until players start role-playing that stinging stand storm, harsh glares, dismal conditions that grit will really be brought into the world.

[Moofassa]

What would solve the problem actually is:

Code Select Expand


<110/110hp 105/115mv 100/100 stun, walking, riding:nothing>

The bald, three-toothed man shouts in sirihish:' Get your grit! Fresh from the latrines, as little as ten coins!.'

list
The bald, three-toothed man has the follow items for sale:
1) A lump of dark-brown grit for 10 coins.
2) A green and purplish sack of mushy grit for 12 coins.
3) A blackish, forearm sized log of rock-solid half-giant grit for 34 coins.
4) A yellow-speckled, finger sized lump of squicky yet solid grit 23 coins.
5) A bone box of gold-flecked, purplish grit for 1234 coins.

You give the bald, three-toothed man 12 coins in exchange for a green and purplish sack of mushy grit.

<110/110hp 105/115mv 100/100 stun, walking, riding:nothing>

Opening the sack and dipping his finger inside, the black-haired, generic PC grins, lifting his finger and watching a bit of black refuse running down his finger.

The black-haired, generic PC says in sirihish, pulling a handful of mush from his sack of grit: ' Mmmm, Grit."

The black-haired, generic PC waddles down the road, a gritty smile plastered across his face.


Nod.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Rindan should be an Immortal. I absolutely love his take on what Armageddon should be like.

I've betrayed what I'd like because I have no time to play anymore, so my character is a member of a imm-run org. But if I had the sort of time I need (and I don't what with starting a business, working a ton, having a family, etc), I would try very hard to rid the game of all of this big shit and scatter it all into small clans and tribes and villages and fucking caravans. Fuck, I wish there were Gypsy caravans traversing the world, and I mean really traveling, too, making it hard to find one but being able to board one when you do and shop and rest and all that.

Life needs to be unstable and not plush unless you take a non-combative role as a merchant or servant or something. We don't need Nak or Tuluk. Just Luir's, nestled in a safe spot of the world, and ruled by a powerful Merchant House or tow, and caravans and villages and stuff, stuff to do and find and live off.

[Agent_137]

I wouldn't mind that.

[Intrepid]

I would.

We can have grit and still have civilization.

[Malifaxis]

It only has enough grit if you're in the right places.