Who-C

[Mental Case]

Could we please have Who-c applied into all clans. I think that this would make everything a lot easier. Because techniqually all the characters are alive and around all the times. So when I go contact joe, currently I don't know why I can't contact him. Is he dead, offline, I have noob way? I think this addition would make everything all that bit easier.

Just hopefull, my contact (everyone to see if they are online) kinda gets to me. Cause you sometimes do it, shake your head then they walk in and your like.... wow.

Please add Who C to all clans.

And to give a new potential spin to this; that I know everyone will disagree with. Maybe you can have sort of a buddy list... for independant clans and such.... but then again that might -draw- away from the game atmosphere.

Now I press Submit and wait for the attack by the evil mudders
(For those who don't know what who c is; it is a command that allows you to see whom and whom isn't online when you are in a small clan)

[Agent_137]

I have never felt a need for this.

But I dont' think it would hurt, either.

[Gaare]

Some clans need that for OOC reasons, otherwise I do not feel it is a need for every clan either. Also that command can be abused. I do not care about that but, someone may..

Edited to add: In some clans, not all members are widely known. That can be a problem.

[Armaddict]

Meh...I feel we're fine without it.

Big problem you'd see is:

Login.
Who -c.
<no names besides your own>
Logout.

Believe that was occuring fairly often in clans that had access.  While you may like it from an OOC standpoint since you don't 'waste your time' (if arm is ever a waste of time), it also makes a new OOC problem of people not sticking around to get stuff done because they think nothing's going on.

Aside from that, there are the cases where clans have 'secret members' that you aren't supposed to know, or where you suddenly know the name.  Or when you are out alone and something happens, and suddenly you decide to contact bob joe IC when you weren't thinking about it before.  You just happened to type who -c and saw that the dude who rarely logs on -just- got on!

I think we can do without it.

[Mental Case]

Dammit you guys are good. There is also the fact of hidden identities. I know a few people who keep their real name hidden and go by another name.... Well gosh darn it.... But then again; maybe names could be taken out of it, and maybe leaders could block people on it. But then it gets to confusing. I admit defeat!

[Halaster]

Meh...I feel we're fine without it.

Big problem you'd see is:

Login.
Who -c.
<no names besides your own>
Logout.

Believe that was occuring fairly often in clans that had access.  While you may like it from an OOC standpoint since you don't 'waste your time' (if arm is ever a waste of time), it also makes a new OOC problem of people not sticking around to get stuff done because they think nothing's going on.

He's right.  There have been clans who used to have the who c command, but because of this very thing, we removed it from those clans.

[Obsidian Lord]

Removing a command like who -c because someone abused it is, frankly, treating the symptom.

It does have uses - even if it only said there are 14 people in your clan online (I forget, but believe it's more detailed than that).

It should either be removed from all clans (I believe some still have it) or put into all clans.

Using a straw-man argument like "hey, you'll just use it, see 0 and logout" is plainly lame.  The same can be said of the person who logs in, walks to Traders, the Barrel and then the Gaj and upon seeing no one logs out.

Are you going to disable looking into taverns from the street?  I doubt it.

I, personally, like who -c and think it should be widely used.  I also remember a function (don't know if this is still in game) in which you could look at an npc in game that was part of your clan and it would say something like "The bald, fat man is a member is called <name> and is a member of <your clan>.

This was really useful for NPCs, most of whom I don't bother to commit to memory as I'm busy worried about important things like PCs. :-D

In the end - who -c could come or go - but it needs to be applied equally to be fair.  Unequal application is unfair and synthetic.  If it's an issue of abuse (which it plainly isn't) remove it completely.  If it's useful, apply it to all.

I would much rather see a real argument like "not realistic for large groups" rather than "potential for abuse" distractions.

No offense, of course, for those who offer the last.

[Armaddict]

Uhm...so the arguments I see -for- who -c from you, Obsidian Lord, are:

1.  Other people have it, I want it too!

2.  ....

That's pretty much it.  You may compare looking around taverns before logging out to typing Who -c, but there's a single very large difference.  One, you go outside of your logout space, where-ever it may be, wander around the city, looking into taverns and your buddy's favorite hangouts, asking people if they've seen them, perhaps.  Getting people to tell him if they see him that you'd really like to talk with him about something or other.

In the other, you login, type a command, gain instantaneous IC knowledge about your clan, whether it be their real name that you can use to contact them, or the fact that they are out doing something at this point.  The problem is, if you're looking for that specific guy, why waste your time going around to the taverns to see if anyone -else- you -might- have the possibility of interaction with if you already know the -one guy- isn't on?

This wasn't an issue that resulted in removal of the command because of -one- person or -one- clan.  It's a widespread and common problem.

Saying you want it because other people have it and it's unfair?  The clans that have it have some deeper reason to have it.  I'd say that if you want a good detailed description on why some clans have it (if indeed they do), then you should email the account and see whether it can be figured out why.

The recognition code for npc's and clan members?  Sweet!  JUST because he's in my clan, I'll remember him.  As a matter of fact, by looking at the face of any one of the -five hundred- or even -sixty- people in my clan, I instantaneously recognize them.
Most clans have documents, and included they often have the names of npc's that are notable or that your pc should know.  Look at 'em.  If they aren't there, it's probably not a heavy requirement to know.  But if you're still curious, and want to find out what -that- npc is called so that you can conduct RP using them, use the 'talk' command, maybe?  It's there to help, but I never see anyone use it anymore.

To sum it up...this isn't a feature that just everyone should have.  That's a step -away- from pure role-play rather than towards it.  In no way can you justify instantaneous, 'divine' knowledge that comes instantly so that your character now knows exactly which of his buddies is on off time, out and about around the city, or whether he's too busy to even let you reach him through the way due to his patrols and duties, or he's asleep.

Once again, in a long-winded and likely incomprehensible rant...I think we can really do fine without it.

[Twilight]

I like the situation with who c as it stands.  I've one been in a couple of clans with it, but they shared some characteristics.  They were clans you could realistically expect to know if not all, at least quite a few of the others in your clan.  They were generally small and isolated (or at least fragmented).  Most importantly, they required an application process to be in (ie,  they were OOC recruiting, not IC).  All makes sense to me to limit it to clans with (mostly) those kinds of criteria.

[Obsidian Lord]

Armaddict>

My point was that the presentation of "who -c is abused" is a straw man argument.

If it is subject to abuse such that it should be removed, then it makes sense to remove it completely as those who abuse it may well find themselves in a clan that uses it.

The real reason who -c should be removed is because it is unrealistic to gain instantaneous IC knowledge.

In this case, it should be removed for all, obviously.

Thus - who -c should be removed for all clans regardless.  The presentation of the the straw man is a rationalization for granting a useful command to certain clans but not to others.

[Anonymous]

Didn't the staff a few years back start removing who -c from more and more clans citing something about people doing exactly what Armaddict is talking about?

Removing a 'feature' which leads to people being lazy and logging out after 15 seconds is probably a good choice for the health of the game.

[Rindan]

The real reason who -c should be removed is because it is unrealistic to gain instantaneous IC knowledge.

In this case, it should be removed for all, obviously.

Thus - who -c should be removed for all clans regardless.  The presentation of the the straw man is a rationalization for granting a useful command to certain clans but not to others.

The reason who -c is in is for family based clans in which everyone should know everyone else.  Very few tribes fit that critera.  In that case, those people do gain the IC knowledge of who is who, but that is IC they should have already of had.  As far as you Borsail or Byner, no, they should not have who -c.  Those clans are all well over 400 people with people coming and going all of the time.  Those are not people you grew up with every day of your life, hence you don't join and suddenly know who everyone is.

[Obsidian Lord]

So, some magickal power of the blood allows you to to instantly know that your brother is in game though he might be 100 leagues away?

I just want to make sure I get this straight, because what your suggesting - that two people closely related should know they are both online at the same time sounds pretty cheesy to me.

[Ghost]

So, some magickal power of the blood allows you to to instantly know that your brother is in game though he might be 100 leagues away?

Psi.

Yeah, not totally magickal but close anyway.  That guy's mind is open at the moment, it tells you.

[RunningMountain]

What the fuck is a straw man?

[Obsidian Lord]

Psi.

Yeah, not totally magickal but close anyway.  That guy's mind is open at the moment, it tells you.

I thought that was already in game and available to everyone?

[Maybe42or54]

So, some magickal power of the blood allows you to to instantly know that your brother is in game though he might be 100 leagues away?

I just want to make sure I get this straight, because what your suggesting - that two people closely related should know they are both online at the same time sounds pretty cheesy to me.

It is known by most people that mindbenders run those clans.

So obviously, yea, everyone in that clank is superglued to each other by the mind strings.

[Anonymous]

What the fuck is a straw man?

Historians believe it had something to do with misrepresenting an opponent's argument and then defeating the misrepresented argument, but nobody is really sure since the real meaning was lost amidst millions of people in debate forums calling every argument to the contrary of their position a strawman so they don't have to bother with a reasoned response.

[Reiloth]

Speaking from the standpoint of having had a character in a family based clan (I believe its tribes that are being reffered to) I've often wondered:

"Hey..What happened to that Who-c command I used to use...God it would help."

The reason I think it helps in particularly small clans and also really widespread clans sometimes based in the middle of nowhere, is that you logon and logoff when no one's in the same room as you, or at least I found I fell into that trap very often.

I would solo rp as much as I could withstand, but this game is truly about player to player interaction, y'know? I wouldn't go hunting the wastes looking for another member of the tribe, thats ludicrous to do every time you log on, and dangerous, and not really sensical IC.

So lets say your in a tribal clan, in the middle of the desert, and you login. You're in your clan's tribal tent home, but half your tribe could be out hunting, shopping, hitting the town, shooting up. Who knows. You certaintly don't. The reason that who-c would make sense to me in this situation, is that it IS IC information being suddenly divined OOC, but if you were to play it out as asking one of the sentry's wandering around the camp "Hey..You seen Ruggulah Baggulda around".."Oh..He went out a couple minutes ago".

who-c
<Insert your name here>
Ruggulah

think I guess i'll wait for him to get back..its getting a bit late.


In sum, I find that I have done that login logoff "convenience thing" many times because i've found that there were very few times I would login to the main sleeping area of this family based clan and see another PC in that room.

It gets boring. Pro Who-c in family based clans.

[jhunter]

What the fuck is a straw man?

Historians believe it had something to do with misrepresenting an opponent's argument and then defeating the misrepresented argument, but nobody is really sure since the real meaning was lost amidst millions of people in debate forums calling every argument to the contrary of their position a strawman so they don't have to bother with a reasoned response.

False and easy to burn.

[Anonymous]

The reason I think it helps in particularly small clans and also really widespread clans sometimes based in the middle of nowhere, is that you logon and logoff when no one's in the same room as you, or at least I found I fell into that trap very often.

I've played in a ton of spread out clans and I've always been in the habit of psi'ing around for my clan buddies when I login.  Logging in looking at the empty room and logging right back off is counter-productive and sort of lazy.  If everyone's doing that what's the point?  Who -c is just a crutch, it doesn't take that long to sit down and do a few psi's and see who is around before determing whether or not to move on.

[Rindan]

So, some magickal power of the blood allows you to to instantly know that your brother is in game though he might be 100 leagues away?

I just want to make sure I get this straight, because what your suggesting - that two people closely related should know they are both online at the same time sounds pretty cheesy to me.

It isn't a magikal power of blood.  Your brother is always ICly in game.  People coming and going from the game is a completely OOC event.

The issue is less about knowing that they are in game and more about knowing if you run across someone if they are apart of your closely knit tribe.  Throw in on top of this that with small isolated blood clans the player population is very low, and it becomes clear why small close knit tribal groups get who -c, but the Byn doesn't.

If you make your new person in tribe A, and you run into a person from tribe B, you should be able to figure out if he is from your tribe or not, despite the fact that you OOCly just started your character.  While OOCly you just started your character, ICly you have grown up in a small tribe and know everyone in it.  Who -c will quickly give you the information that your character already has, namely, the person from tribe B is not in your clan.

The utility of who -c extends a little further for small tribal groups.  Generally these groups have very low populations and are located in low population areas.  It would be damn nice to know when one of your tribe mates is on so that you can stop soloing for a few moments and play with someone else in your culture.

Other clans do not suffer from these same issues.  If you are a Kuraci or Byn, simply following the schedule will ensure that if there are other Kuraci on, you will run into them.  If some thief gets a hold of a Kuraci or Byn uniform, there isn't any way for you to know that he isn't a member.  New people come and go all the time.  Not only that, but there are enough people where you can't possibly hope to memorize who belongs and who doesn't.

[Incognito]

I dont think most regular clans should have the who c command.

Picture being a player in a clan like Kurac, and using the who c command to find like 30 players online, while you can only see 2 more players besides your own PC, around your vicinity in Luirs...............

There are a lot of clans who have clandestine spies on the payroll and who should not be known by the other PCs.

Along the same lines, there are quite a few players who go by aliases, and would not wish their real names to be known by other clan members.

[Zharal]

Yes it does seem like there could be quite a bit off ooc abuse with this idea, I personally dont like it at all.. You want to get in touch with others in your clan, use the way to reach those that you know of.

[Kalden]

Who -c is just a crutch, it doesn't take that long to sit down and do a few psi's and see who is around before determing whether or not to move on.

Honestly people.

[Xygax]

What the fuck is a straw man?

This was so eloquently phrased and politely requested, I couldn't resist.  A straw man is a form of fallacious argument.

-- X

[X-D]

I was playing back when almost all clans had who clan and was happy when it was removed, from most of them.

I know of the clans that still have it and agree with them having it, but, I do think the tribes should also have it, even more then the ones that have it now, it makes more sense. Since they all know each other and grew up together, it would only make sense that the have a tighter link/bond. And thats the IC arguement. The OOC arguement is that most of the tribal clan chars really can't just go to a local tavern and look for interaction there, unlike city clan members. I think it would also help with keeping a more solid player base for those clans.