Projectiles and Guard

[Desertman]

First off, I am not certain if guard actually defends your charge from projectiles or not. I have played for a good many years now and In all of the time I have played combat oriented classes I have never seen someone succsessfully guard someone from an arrow or a throwing knife. In a recent massacre by gith a group of mine encountered, I realized that if there was a skill/command in place to allow one character to attempt to guard another character from projectiles, the outcome would have been much much different. Not only that, it would be another step in the direction of "formations" which I have seen quiet a few posts about over the years that never did reach any conclusions. If guard does already cover this then perhaps I have just never been 'that' good of a guard or been in the right place at the right time to witness it...if it dosent, lets get some ideas rolling on this. When three immortal ran gith scouts start pumping arrows into one person at a time in a stranded group, it would be damn spiffy to have your two shield bearing warriors trying to atleast stand infront of the would be pin cushion.

[amoeba]

The dreaded "find out IC". it may suprise you if you are patient.

[Desertman (not logged in)]

Well I wasnt asking if it was already in game, I was saying if it wasnt, then we should work on getting it in. If we say..."Find out if this exists in game"...then only immortals will be able to come up with new ideas, because only they will know everything about the game....if we dont know if something exists, and we have to find out ic,,,,if it dosent exist...we will never know for certain because we will have never found it,,,,so there will never be any new ideas.

[Desertman (not logged in)]

That came out wrong....What I meant was......If we have to find out if something exists in game, before we can propose a new idea for something that presents a problem. The problem being....if something dosent exist, you can spend your whole life looking for it, and never find it because there is nothing to find....and if you have to find out if it exists first before you can attempt to create it, and there is nothing to find, then you can never attempt to create it.


So you can say, yes it exists so this dosent need to be implemented, or you can say, no it dosent exist so yes this is a worthy cause....Saying find out ic if it exists.......Is a dead end...because if it dosent exist, then I have spent my whole life trying to find something that dosent exist, when I could have spent that time creating it.

[Tarx]

I don't want to be a pest but it really isn't that hard to find out if it can be done IC, and the best way to find out is by doing it IC.  It's also the quickest way.  It's not like it is an obscure hidden halfling outpost inside Allanak that you are asking about--it's what sounds like a simple thing that would take a few minutes to discover on your own, not your entire character's lifetime.

1.  Ask someone, probably in a militaristic clan or with any military background IC.

2.  Try it?  In a controlled environment if you can do so...

[Desertman]

What you are saying would make sense...accept what I said before nulls it. I didnt say....How do I find this out?....What I said was....If it dosent exist, lets put it in. If it does exist, then yes I could find it, if it dosent, I could ask every badass warrior/military pc in game and they wouldnt know either....So, I can go ask in game, and maybe someone will say, Yes, you can block an arrow from hitting John Smith if you are standing infront of John Smith...Or they will say...No, you cant block an arrow....Or, I can spend my entire character's life, training my guard skill, and hoping that it exists, but if it dosent exist, what am I supposed to do? Wonder if my guard skill just isnt good enough yet? If it does exist, just say, YES YOU CAN ALREADY DO THIS....if it dosent exist....Say, NO THIS ISNT IN GAME LETS WORK ON IT....you are asking me to search for something that might not even exist at all....when Columbus went in search of the new world...He found it because it existed, if it didnt exist and he came back...If the king told him....KEEP LOOKING UNTIL YOU FIND IT...he would still be searching to the end of his days....I have played for 6 years and been in the position to see this more times than I can count...Either it exists and I just havent seen it, or it dosent.....you can tell me to keep searching, but if it dosent exist, you are sending me on a fools errand....if it does exist, just tell me to shutup because its not worth spending time on and I will gladly be quiet about it.

[Cuusardo]

Guard someone, and have someone else throw a dart and try to hit that person while you're guarding them.

[Bebop]

Guard someone, and have someone else throw a dart and try to hit that person while you're guarding them.

Isn't that kind of twinkish instead of just someone saying yes guard is coded to block projectiles.

I think what he is saying is there is no one someone can know this for sure unless you get someone who has completely maxed out there guard and maxed out there say... throwing and then get these two people together somehow IC then for no real reason IC say okay now ... you throw something at me.

Edit:  Not to mention you would actually have someone to guard there too.  Okay now I am going to practice my skill:  guard.

And if it is not coded that someone can guard projectiles that it should be because that leads a huge gap in being able to guard someone.

[Desertman]

Yes, I know how to do it....If I am trying to block a projectile from hitting someone, and wondering if the guard skill covers this aspect of the game, then I would guard someone and let someone else fire a projectile at them...And if the skill dose exist, and my guard is good enough, I will block that projectile....but....If I cant seem to block this projectile...I can assume one of two things....One being.....The guard skill dosent cover this aspect of the game and so now I need to go back to the boards and confirm that it dosent exist and then we can start coming up with the new idea that will cover this aspect of the game....or I will assume that my guard skill isnt good enough yet and I can train a month or two...then try again...and again....and again....and what if I never do block this dart? Do I just keep trying and hoping the skill exists?.....What if the skill dosent exist at all....am I supposed to spend the rest of my life training up my guard skill in hopes that one day I will be good enough to block this dart? If the skill dosent exist, then it is a lost cause I will spend the rest of my life training my guard skill for no reason....


So...does it exist in game or not...does the guard skill also cover blocking projectiles?...Or should I go spend potentially the rest of my life training my guard skill to find out? And then,,,,if it dosent exist,,,I will never really know for sure, because I wont know for sure how good you have to be at guard for it to work........Its a dead end.....either it exists and this thread is pointless.....Or it dosent exist, and its worth working on.

[Rindan]

People, this is not a "find out IC" thing.  Obviously, you can guard someone from a projectile ICly.  Asking someone if you can stop a projectile from hitting who you are protecting ICly is just going to get you a funny look and a "uh, yeah... of course you can, just step in front of it" response.  The question is whether or not the code is actually set up to guard you from a projectile.    

To answer the question, I am fairly certain that you can indeed guard against projectiles, but I also know that it is close to impossible without a shield.  It used to be that a guy with two weapons was an anti-aircraft gun and could bat a thousand arrows away if he was good enough.  They changed it so that shields were drastically more effective against projectiles and duel wielders were useless.

This brings up an interesting point though.  Does the code base your chance to guard against a projectile on the guard skill, your weapon/shield/defense skills, or both?  I personally think it would be awesome if you could toggle your guard to 'aggressively' guard your charge.  Normal guarding would work as it does today, but aggressively guarding would cause you to throw yourself in the way of potential hits that you couldn't block.  So, if you are following behind your Byn sergeant, you might simply use a normal guard.  You defend him if you can, but you are not going to throw yourself in front of a poison tipped arrow.  A noble guard on the other hand might 'aggressively' guard his charge.  Not only will he try and stop attacks the old fashion way, but he will also throw himself in front of attacks he couldn't otherwise stop.  Aggressive guarding would be much more effective, but would leave the guard in question at a massive defensive advantage.  He might stop an assassins blade, but using his body as a shield would might leave him dead or severely hurt after the assassin's initial strike.

[Mr.Camel]

I don't know the answer to that question.
But, I agree with Bebop, that's not a reasonable way to find out.
Also, does it make sense to ask a character in game about whether or not the guard command, when mastered, guards against projectiles? How would that be done?

[EDIT] I love Rindan's idea.

[Puppet]

Um... maybe I'm missing something, but why should one (or even two, or even three) be able to protect someone from projectiles with efficiency? An arrow can come from any direction, be quite accurate and can slip through some small openings in defense. Even if you ARE expecting the arrow, you'd have to have some damn good reflexes to block it. Same thing goes for knives and whatnot. Even if you've surrounded your charge with shielded warriors, that doesn't mean that an arrow or some other projectile couldn't slip through unexpectedly.

[Cuusardo]

Who cares about whether or not the code allows it?  If your PC really wants to protect his employer from projectiles, he'll try his damndest to do it.  If that means practicing with darts, how is that twinkish?

Stop thinking about it from a code perspective and think about it from a roleplay perspective.

[Desertman]

I agree Puppett.....But keep in mind this is a game and I have seen people fight 10 ton lizards with bone blades and defeat them....So, if we put the real life physics aside,,,,,since this isnt the real world and real world physics dont apply.....This is possible....I have seen people throw fire balls from thier hands...I dont think it would be impossible to see and arrow coming and jump infront of John Smith with your shield to block the arrow.

[Desertman]

But...the last post wasnt the issue at hand...this is...



Yes, I know how to do it....If I am trying to block a projectile from hitting someone, and wondering if the guard skill covers this aspect of the game, then I would guard someone and let someone else fire a projectile at them...And if the skill dose exist, and my guard is good enough, I will block that projectile....but....If I cant seem to block this projectile...I can assume one of two things....One being.....The guard skill dosent cover this aspect of the game and so now I need to go back to the boards and confirm that it dosent exist and then we can start coming up with the new idea that will cover this aspect of the game....or I will assume that my guard skill isnt good enough yet and I can train a month or two...then try again...and again....and again....and what if I never do block this dart? Do I just keep trying and hoping the skill exists?.....What if the skill dosent exist at all....am I supposed to spend the rest of my life training up my guard skill in hopes that one day I will be good enough to block this dart? If the skill dosent exist, then it is a lost cause I will spend the rest of my life training my guard skill for no reason....


So...does it exist in game or not...does the guard skill also cover blocking projectiles?...Or should I go spend potentially the rest of my life training my guard skill to find out? And then,,,,if it dosent exist,,,I will never really know for sure, because I wont know for sure how good you have to be at guard for it to work........Its a dead end.....either it exists and this thread is pointless.....Or it dosent exist, and its worth working on

[Puppet]

Well, I wasn't really applying real life physics, but if you want to say that your guardsman is capable of seeing and throwing himself in front of an arrow, then you have to take into account the skill of the bowman. It could be extraordinary as well.

[Anonymous]

Stop thinking about it from a code perspective and think about it from a roleplay perspective.

In this case the question is 'Does the code take care of all the things that a determined guard would want to do' and therefore seems to me to be a question asked very much from a roleplay perspective.

[Bebop]

Who cares about whether or not the code allows it?  If your PC really wants to protect his employer from projectiles, he'll try his damndest to do it.  If that means practicing with darts, how is that twinkish?

Stop thinking about it from a code perspective and think about it from a roleplay perspective.

There is no RP way to take a blow for someone.  You can RP jumping infront of the arrow but the person that you are guarding will still be the one taking the blow if it is not coded that you can guard people from projectiles.

In order to really discuss what this thread was meant for, I think we have to fundamentally establish whether this code exists or not so this thread doesn't get off topic.

[Desertman]

That wasnt the question...The question was....Does the code allow you to defend someone from a projectile. Its not a great spoiler, and I am pretty certain it does, but if it dosent, lets work on it.

[Cuusardo]

That wasnt the question...The question was....Does the code allow you to defend someone from a projectile.

This is why I replied with what I did.

[Desertman]

Yeah thanks Cuursado...I replied with this to your reply. Its on page one.


Yes, I know how to do it....If I am trying to block a projectile from hitting someone, and wondering if the guard skill covers this aspect of the game, then I would guard someone and let someone else fire a projectile at them...And if the skill dose exist, and my guard is good enough, I will block that projectile....but....If I cant seem to block this projectile...I can assume one of two things....One being.....The guard skill dosent cover this aspect of the game and so now I need to go back to the boards and confirm that it dosent exist and then we can start coming up with the new idea that will cover this aspect of the game....or I will assume that my guard skill isnt good enough yet and I can train a month or two...then try again...and again....and again....and what if I never do block this dart? Do I just keep trying and hoping the skill exists?.....What if the skill dosent exist at all....am I supposed to spend the rest of my life training up my guard skill in hopes that one day I will be good enough to block this dart? If the skill dosent exist, then it is a lost cause I will spend the rest of my life training my guard skill for no reason....


So...does it exist in game or not...does the guard skill also cover blocking projectiles?...Or should I go spend potentially the rest of my life training my guard skill to find out? And then,,,,if it dosent exist,,,I will never really know for sure, because I wont know for sure how good you have to be at guard for it to work........Its a dead end.....either it exists and this thread is pointless.....Or it dosent exist, and its worth working on.

[amoeba]

That wasnt the question...The question was....Does the code allow you to defend someone from a projectile. Its not a great spoiler, and I am pretty certain it does, but if it dosent, lets work on it.

Let me explain why I stated find out IC.   There is no harm in sugessting an idea, I'm not telling you "screw off, figure it out IG" I'm stating that there may be an answer to your solution IG, and that you may enjoy being suprised by it, or not.   The problem is "what" is too IC to discuss? This one is one of those grey areas for me, and -I- am not comfortable with "spoling" something, even if as you stated this is not a "great spolier".  I'll leave that for the IMMs to determine.   As it is I probably said too much for -my- own comfort.

[Desertman]

Yeah that fine, I understand, just trying to add a new addition to the game and looking for a starting point. Thanks just the same Amoeba.


 Here is what is says in the Skill Guard help file........This skill allows one person to guard another, an object, or an exit, usually placing themselves in harm's way as a means of doing so. This is mostly effective against outright acts of violence, however, and not against magick. The hardest person to guard against is one who is an experienced guard, since they know the trade.


The bolded area there would lead one to believe that yes, if you are trying to harm someone with a projectile, then the guard skill should cover it....all I want is some clerification on whats already in the docs.

[Tarx]

I see what you're asking now, Desertman.  I need IMM clarification myself, though--I'd leave it up to them to decide whether or not this should be public info or not.  Granted, it's not a "big deal" but it is still something that I know you can find out IC, so I'd feel bad for trying to help without confirmation first.

[Agent_137]

I don't think this should be "find out IC" info, or even "spoiler info."

the average zalanthian would know if it was physically possible for a guard to block projectiles.

and judging from the similarity between basic zalanthan phsyics and basic earth physics, i'm going to reasonably guess that it's possible on zalanthas.

the question is, does the code support it?

it's not a secret. it's not a find out ic. it's something joe average nakki, amos the clay digger northerner, or fek the tribal would know!

so if you -know-, spit it out, please. krath.

[Desertman (not logged in)]

Seconded.

[Xygax]

It's a "find out IC" or, if you can justify your particular character knowing the answer, it's a "find out by e-mailing the MUD account."  I am particularly adverse to seeing specific game-mechanics like this being discussed.

Locking this thread.

-- X