Listen code

[bloodfromstone]

Yes, I know it's been brought up before, but I still feel it is an issue that has a negative effect on gameplay. Listen is ridiculous. From my experience, everyone with listen listens all of the time and hears everything, no matter if they're in a crowded bar, training hall, the streets, a storm... And who is to blame them? The code says they hear it.
You know in movies and books, people meet up at seedy taverns and have secret discussions, hold small meetings in the backs of bars, or form contacts and jobs over a game of cards that is just there for show? Or when a political figure is about to speak, and his advisor steps up and whispers in his ear? That stuff is cool. It's intrigue. It's very Zalanthas. It's also not something people do IG, because everyone will hear them, regardless of the care taken.

whisper noble (leaning close and cupping a hand over his mouth as he speaks softly into ^noble ear) Your army of ninja magickers is almost here, my Lord. These fools are like rats in a barrel.
Immediately following an action like that, 8 of the 10 PCs present would jump and leave, scream, attack, etc. Thus, everyone just Ways everything. And personally, I hate sitting across the table from someone in a bar with a thousand other conversations going on, and having them talk to me over the Way.

As has been suggested before, I think the primary thing the listen skill needs is targetting. listen 2.table or listen templar. Whispers, speech in other rooms, etc should be missed sometimes. Without limitations and margins of error, no one will say anything incriminating.

Like I said, I know it's been brought up before, and I know the Way isn't entirely safe, but I think it is still an issue that bleeds through into the game very often. Let's hear what you think.

(Also, sorry if the post is poorly written or doesn't make sense. I'm tired.)

[Vesperas]

I think that's part of the intrigue, though... thinking that someone could possibly be listening in to your deep, dark secret.

Personally, its 'the Way' I don't like.  On the one hand, its difficult to start with, but then on the other, it IS too easy to just sit around and Way crucial information, because it feels safe.  Maybe there should be a slew of brainworm attacks.

[Earendur]

I guess you just have to expect the players to RP it realistically.  True, I have heard someone mumble a word at a bar in a crowded tavern about someone else in the tavern, then see that someone else (actively participating in his own conversation) get up and react as if he had heard it perfectly over all the other patrons.  Solution, don't just use listen all the time; only throw it on if you're actually trying to listen maybe?

Personally, its 'the Way' I don't like.  On the one hand, its difficult to start with, but then on the other, it IS too easy to just sit around and Way crucial information, because it feels safe.  Maybe there should be a slew of brainworm attacks.

My current character will only communicate vital inormation face to face.  I think assuming the Way is completely safe is.. a fatal error.  Sure, it's safe from 99.9% of the population, but it's accessible (afaik) to the 00.1% of the population you really don't want accessing it.  I refer of course to psionicists.  They might not be listening to your every conversation, but it only takes hearing the right thing once for them to take an interest in the dirty little thoughts that go through your head.

[Anonymous]

I think that's part of the intrigue, though... thinking that someone could possibly be listening in to your deep, dark secret.

How is there intrigue if it's pretty much a given?

I still wish that listen was targetted.  Target a PC and you get everything said or whispered by and to them.  Target a table and you get the talk at the table.  Target yourself and you'll get some of the other benefits of listen.  It's more realistic and hopefully would reduce the amount of 'Let us rent a backroom while we talk about our barely sensitive information' type scenarios thus making listen more valuable than as a language learning device.

That's all I have to say, now I'll just wait for the requisite 'I can hear everyone at every table talk when I'm at Applebees so don't change anything because it's just like real life' post.

[Agent_137]

if you make listen targetable, you'd need to change it for the wilds.

If i'm crouched behind a bush in the wilds listening, i shouldn't have to target a direction.

But I would like to see some harsher change as far as listening to everyone in a tavern goes. Hell, i'd be happy with the OPTION to target a particular table.

Make it easier for people to roleplay properly without having to actually change the system.

[bloodfromstone]

I think that's part of the intrigue, though... thinking that someone could possibly be listening in to your deep, dark secret.

I don't think it's intrigue, though, because no one says their deep dark secret. Everyone is fully aware that every aide and half the soldiers at the bar have listen.

I guess you just have to expect the players to RP it realistically. True, I have heard someone mumble a word at a bar in a crowded tavern about someone else in the tavern, then see that someone else (actively participating in his own conversation) get up and react as if he had heard it perfectly over all the other patrons.

I've seen this happen more often than not, honestly. I am normally all in favor of giving other players the benefit of the doubt, but there is something about listen that just makes it not work.

If i'm crouched behind a bush in the wilds listening, i shouldn't have to target a direction.

This is where 'listen self' or 'listen' with no arguments would come in. It could provide some of the other listen benefits and give the user the chance to hear any number of conversations at the bar, but they would miss most of all of them. Good for if you want to be on guard to sneaks, or maybe you're looking for that filthy tribal that's been causing trouble. Flip on your 'listen self' switch and wait until the accent drifts you way. Or something. Just an idea on that.

I would also like to see some dangers to using listen. Currently, you can listen through doors while sitting inconspicuously at a table. I have no problems with being able to pick out a specific conversation over the dull roar of a bar or standing quietly while you listen to peope gossip a few paces down a hallway, but really, if you're going to be listening through a door made of hardwood, you should have to put some risk into it, and anyone who walks up should probably know what you're up to. Something like:
The listener is here, her ear pressed up against the western door.

[Jherlen]

I'd be fully in favor of something like this, or alternately, just a simple change to listen that makes it not absolute. If you can get listen on, in my experience, you'll hear absolutely everything said at tables in the same room with you. It'd be nice if when listening, you only pick up speech some of the time. Or, you could apply a language code garble to what you're hearing. Both of these would happen or not depending on skill. But a targeting feature would be nice too.

Listen is too powerful, which makes everyone use the Way... which I also think is too powerful and overused, but the thread I posted about that got torn to shreds a few months ago.

[Maybe42or54]

Everyone should grow a pair and take chances.
Isn't that why we play a game? A fix to listen would be nice, I see it abused more than it isn't abused or used as an "intrigue" trigger, but hell, if it isn't fixed, we should all just take a little chance at telling our dirty little secrets. Even though they will be used against us and all the playerbase will get mad that the one guy heard someone tell him that his best friend thinks his girlfriend is a slut and had her the day before they last saw each other. Or some such nonsense.

Seriously. I could rant all day about this.

[Larrath]

I think that everyone should be able to listen to one table, person or direction, and have a 50% chance to hear something said and a 10% chance to hear something said, so you can hear the second and third sentences but not the first.
There's really no reason why 'listen' is a skill.  As it is, it's just an annoyance to warriors and other folk who don't have the skill, and a serious disadvantage.  I think it's actually a little unbalancing.

[rishenko]

To regurgitate what everybody else said:

It's one thing to have a listen skill on inside of a quiet apartment, listening to people sitting at the table nearby.  It is quite another, as has been said before, to try and pick out a conversation from a table across the other room whilst sitting at the bar.  Especially when you are at somewhere like the Gaj, where you have drunken revelling, cockroach races and the like.

Granted, the people in this world may have slightly more adept physical and mental abilities than people found on Earth, but I doubt the difference is that impressive.  Take a look at our most trained units, those involved with MI6, the CIA and the Massad.  Even when sitting in a quiet coffee shop, they are still forced to use listening devices (bugs to receive, headphones or earbuds to listen) to hear the conversation of people sitting across the room.

My idea:
(skill level * room/weather modifier * other room modifier * location modifier * target modifier * other verbal modifier * listener's verbal modifier * small random modifier) = ability to listen in.

Room/Weather Modifier:
I think that room and sittable object modifiers should be incorporated into the listen skill.  A busy street and the Gaj would have the same amount of difficulty in trying to hear people sitting or walking several feet away.  However, an apartment or hallway would allow for better eavesdropping.  If you are outside in a harsh sandstorm, you're going to have troubles listening to a whisper, even a fairly loud whisper.

Other Room Modifier:
If you are sitting in the Gaj trying to listen to somebody just outside in a sandstorm, you're not going to hear crap.  If you are listening from a bedroom to a conversation in the front room, you have a pretty good chance.

Location Modifier:
Tables and bars or sitting locations that are far apart would present yet another difficulty in terms of eavesdropping.  A person whispering on a bench on one side of a large room should present a massive difficulty to a person located in another room who is talking to other people.

Target Modifier:
Is the listener targeting a specific table?  If so, they receive a positive modifier.  If they are not targeting a specific area and are just listening randomly, they would receive a slight negative modifier.

Other Verbal Modifier:
Is the target shouting?  Is the target speaking normally?  Is the target whispering?  Is the target exclaiming?  Shouting would add a positive modifier.  Speaking normally would have no modifier.  Whispering would present a negative modifier.  If the target is exclaiming (using a ! at the end of a sentence) then it would present a positive modifier.

Listener's Verbal Modifier:
If a person is talking, laughing, chuckling or whatever else, it will make is that much harder to listen to other people.  How would this be incorporated into the game?  If the listener speaks/shouts/whispers, they receive a negative modifier for the the next three seconds.  This would assume the amount off time it took them to speak.

Random Modifier:
Everything in life has a little randomness with it.  A slight positive or negative modifier to spice it up.

Result:
Depending on all of the above factors, people may or may not be able to capture parts of various conversations.  If in a quiet room, listening intently, they should be quite able to hear everything said.  If in the Gaj, sitting at the bar and trying to listen to a table on the other side of the room while laughing it up with their buddy.  They shouldn't hear squat.  You then have everything inbetween, hearing most everything or just catching the occasional rare say/talk/whisper.  You could even go farther and extract portions of a say/talk or such that could be heard.

A system like the above would definitely add intrigue.  You might not be sure if you misunderstand what somebody said, perhaps only getting part of the conversation.  People in atmospheres full of ruckus could rest assured that only the most skilled person, who would probably need to sitting next to them would be able to listen in.

[Armaddict]

Go back to past threads instead of starting a new one?

I think all the arguments brought up thusfar are already -in- past threads anyway, so basically, this is just setting up to go along almost the exact same lines as in the past.

This is getting irritating.

[Anonymous]

This is getting irritating.

And you said as much last time this topic came up.  So why don't you just ignore the thread instead of shitting on it?

It's a given that most new threads are covering a topic that has been discussed at length multiple times through the years.

[Armaddict]

It's a given that most new threads are covering a topic that has been discussed at length multiple times through the years.

Oh -really-.  That would be an incredibly large surprise for me, to learn that most of our discussions have -already- been discussed.  Though, -if- that's true, I'll say that it's because PEOPLE KEEP ON REPOSTING ON THINGS rather than going back, looking at the -old- threads, and -then- deciding whether or not they actually had something new to say.

Yes, I'm going to shit -all over- this thread, because it's a pointless argument that -if- changes are going to be done, it's -probably- already in the Immortals' 'queue' of to do projects, and if not, there's probably a reason for it that has not been disproved.  Therefore, either way, starting a brand new thread that leads to the exact same -shit- being said is not only pointless, but just wasting further space on a GDB that is being more heavily moderated to conserve space.

Just shutup and realize the issue is either being dealt with, or there wasn't anything deemed wrong to be dealt with.  With the amount of threads there have been on this particular topic, to bring it up again shows a certain intolerable amount of impatience/retardedness.

This is probably going to be removed for being inflammatory, but jesus, like I said...this is getting irritating.

[Delirium]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4570
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9720
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13397
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12854
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13925

No need to get aggressive.. some people haven't seen or read the threads above.

But yes, 'Search' sure is a useful function, isn't it?  I highly recommend using it more often.

[Medena]

The purpose of a discussion board is to discuss things, not build a second set of documentation.  A lot of people haven't been here for years and years and haven't had the opportunity to take part in previous discussions.  Discussion is a process not a body of information.

Sure, I myself have seen other discussions on the matter. So I can choose to either skip the thread or maybe skim it lightly to see if a fresh idea emerges from a new discussion. Who knows? One just might.

[Mental Case]

I can hear everyone at every table talk when I'm at Applebees so don't change anything because it's just like real life

((That's for you CRW))

[X-D]

I don't see any reason for any change to listen to happen or even be close to the top of the staff's list to change.

It is far from as all powerful as people claim on these threads and there are many ways to avoid a conversation being easily overheard using that skill without using the way.

If you have uber secret things to say to one another, WORK harder at keeping it so, A crowded tavern, no matter how the movies make it look is not the place to be talking about super sekrit stuff.

Me, I tend to use taverns for when I WANT things to be overheard...sure helps with plots.

[Agent_137]

i think this is at heart a conflict between the MUSH and the MUD elements of our little game.

[williamson]

I think listen works fine as it is now. I'm against changing it.

-Williamson

[Anonymous]

why not just make listen a skill that sucks on your stamina continiously. It shoudnt be much, but the loss should be greater then a gain of a sitting person.

Plus, you can also add a small chance that would make the listening person echo for random amount of people "you realize that so and so is trying to eavesdrop this and this" with this and this being the person who was overheard during the chanced trigger.

This way, you're free to eavesdrop, but ... it is a tiring matter, since it takes a great deal of your attention. And you might offend some people who notice you're eavesdropping and get your face punched in, so there's a risk to using listen.

[Maybe42or54]

I like that.

You notice someone paying attention to your conversation.

[Armaddict]

why not just make listen a skill that sucks on your stamina continiously. It shoudnt be much, but the loss should be greater then a gain of a sitting person.

That's a new idea.  I'm not sure exactly what would be done with it, though.

Plus, you can also add a small chance that would make the listening person echo for random amount of people "you realize that so and so is trying to eavesdrop this and this" with this and this being the person who was overheard during the chanced trigger.

This idea was brought up in past threads numerous times.  More info on it there.

[jhunter]

I think people make way too big of a deal about the listen skill. It's really not that big of a deal.

[Maybe42or54]

Yea. I've never had good experiences with listen though. Not a one. It is always bad. Someone overhears something and the plotline lasts a whole two days and ends with my death, or the social beheading. Can't Rp with anyone else because one person heard one thing and the whole town ignores my RP.

It just needs to be fixed so I can have good experiences, instead of just bad.

[jhunter]

Yea. I've never had good experiences with listen though. Not a one. It is always bad. Someone overhears something and the plotline lasts a whole two days and ends with my death, or the social beheading. Can't Rp with anyone else because one person heard one thing and the whole town ignores my RP.

It just needs to be fixed so I can have good experiences, instead of just bad.

I can understand that. But there are several ways to deal with this.

[HardCarbon]

Yes, I know it's been brought up before, but I still feel it is an issue that has a negative effect on gameplay. Listen is ridiculous. From my experience, everyone with listen listens all of the time and hears everything, no matter if they're in a crowded bar, training hall, the streets, a storm... And who is to blame them? The code says they hear it.

This isn't as bad as pickpockets stealing a slung POLEARM.   People vanishing in a crowded room with seven people looking at them.   People with listen are trained to pick up things of interest.

 Note..Perhaps an urban and a wilderness verson of this skill might work...  ie the wilderness can hear creatures approaching within 2-3 rooms but can miss conversations.  and the reverse for urban.

[spawnloser]

HardCarbon...but how does the code represent you 'hearing things approach' ?  By defeating sneak.  That's all you want rangers to have?  Sound carries in the wilderness and they can monopolize on that, being wilderness people.

Personally, I think 'listen' is fine when roleplayed well.  Those that don't roleplay it well...well...it's just like people that roleplay anything wrong, they need to learn and we have to deal with it.