Suggestions: Stats

[shanahan]

I have been MUDding for a while now, and Armageddon has a lot of neat aspects to offer, but can be improved in several ways:

Stat Increases:

Include the random roll, but allow players to increase their stats like this:

Every character goes through different statistic developments at these ages:

13

16

18

21

24

At every statistical development point the character may choose 2 stats to increase, one will be a slight increase, the other even less.

Characters starting past any of the cornerstone ages (eg a character that starts at the age of 20) will be able to choose stat bonuses he would normally have had if he started a character from the age of 13, but if a character was started and developed from the age of 13 all the way to 24 his statistic bonuses would be higher then someone who started their character at age 20.

Needless to say, the years would be adjusted by racial age (eg an elf would not get a stat development at 13, but it would vary per race).

For example:

The ages above would be for a human, but an elf's would develop something like this:

15

21

26

With elves the stat development would be much greater at every development date then that of a human, due to the fact that they take much longer to develop, but when each are at their last development stage the net stat gain would be equal. Characters who actually play their character through each stage will have a higher stat gain then those who didn't.

[jstorrie]

Characters who live long enough to change age categories can mail the MUD account to have their stats altered. Armageddon characters are generally, however, short-lived.

Characters who focus on some sort of physical training can mail the MUD account with logs, asking to have their stats altered. It takes a significant amount of in-character effort to make this reasonable.

Those two systems handle Armageddon character stats just fine. Giving players more control over their stats, or making the mechanisms more complex, needlessly takes the focus away from personality and character and puts it instead on numbers and charts. Alterations to character attributes happen uncommonly enough that a mail here and there does not overburden the staff.

Finally, there is no reason to reward players for having longer-lived characters. Any two given characters of the same race and same age should have the same modifiers to their attributes, regardless of how much of their life was played as a PC. There is a strong tradition in Armageddon of not differentiating between PC, NPC and VNPC, and the tradition is there for a reason: artificially separating the PC population from the NPC/VNPC population is jarring and takes away from the immersive nature of the setting.

So, basically, I don't think any of these ideas are really good for Armageddon at all. That's my $0.02.

[moab]

First, your figures are slightly off.

Second, I find it interesting you didn't include ages for stat decreases.

Can't have one without the other.

[Salt Merchant]

I believe a former Overlord, Bram, had the intention of implementing the effects of age on stats. There was a point when everyone had their stats lowered in preparation for this. (Just after Arm returned following a six month down period due to hacking).

He may even have gotten as far as implementing an effect of age on stats at character creation (I'm not sure).

Unfortunately he decided to leave. The system was never finished, it seems.

Voluntary choice of what gets raised wasn't in the cards, though.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

The rugged Kuraci says, in sirihish:
"Dude! I just leveled up!"
Sorry. I don't see how this makes sense in the gameworld. Also, you seem to be assuming that everyone starts with a young character. Some people create 40, 50, and 60 year old characters. Why should one sixty year old be much stronger, wiser, faster or tougher than another? Because the magickal spirit of a player inhabited them earlier in their life?
No thanks.

[Salt Merchant]

I don't see how this makes sense in the gameworld.

Do you feel you had reached the height of your strength, agility, endurance and wisdom at thirteen years old?

Do you view aging as a process in which people remain the same, until at age eighty or so, they abruptly crock off?

Bram's intent was to have wisdom increase a little over the course of a character's lifespan. The other stats would hit a peak in early to mid adulthood, then taper off sharply in old age, finally leading to death. When a character was created, their stats would be modified to reflect their position along this overall curve. The whole effect wasn't to be very large, except for the downward trend late in life. None of it was meant to be voluntary, as in the player choosing which stats are affected.

That system would have made sense to me.

[Cenghiz]

Hehe.. It could be slight derailment but...
Let's say you start with an 13-year old warrior.. Then you get to the age 18....
......
Big stop here right? Because if a warrior manages to live five years, he would for sure be something badass.. A slight increase in X or Y wouldn't matter.
It's perfectly the same for merchants, burglars or elementalists, too. It simply wouldn't matter.
But if it gets implemented, I wouldn't care of course.

[Maybe42or54]

Or they might not have done anything. In which case, it wouldn't matter still.

[RunningMountain]

Having played OLDer characters. I think something needs to be done about their stats. No matter what I am always able to roll the most horrible, shitty stats one can imagine. And that includes wisdom.

-R

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Salt Merchant wrote:

Do you feel you had reached the height of your strength, agility, endurance and wisdom at thirteen years old?

Do you view aging as a process in which people remain the same, until at age eighty or so, they abruptly crock off?

Of course not.

Bram's intent was to have wisdom increase a little over the course of a character's lifespan. The other stats would hit a peak in early to mid adulthood, then taper off sharply in old age, finally leading to death. When a character was created, their stats would be modified to reflect their position along this overall curve. The whole effect wasn't to be very large, except for the downward trend late in life. None of it was meant to be voluntary, as in the player choosing which stats are affected.

Yes, this system makes sense. My previous post was directed at the original poster's idea, and the topic of this thread. All sixty year olds should not be smarter, faster, stronger, and wiser than all thirteen year olds.

[RunningMountain]

Yes, this system makes sense. My previous post was directed at the original poster's idea, and the topic of this thread. All sixty year olds should not be smarter, faster, stronger, and wiser than all thirteen year olds.

Why not? This isn't earth. And at 60 years old you can be WAY stronger then at 13. And you should be much hardier at 60 then 13. From my experiences, anything over the age of 40 gets nerfed on every single stat. That's just me though, maybe I'm unlucky. But from talking to others playing older PCs they say the same, this includes the wisdom stat.

[Maybe42or54]

Hardly anyone is as strong as they were in their 20s.

Anything under 40 for me gets nerfed every damn time. And then I don't want any extremely long lived Pcs, so Heh.

[LoD]

I'm opposed to any focus on a character's stats past character creation.

We're here to play out our roles, not to have l337 strength.  While some players will constantly rationalize that they need good stats to have a successful character, they don't realize that the problem isn't their stats, it's their definition of success.

If we have any system that grants players the ability to improve their stats over time or via aging, you're going to have a group of players that constantly min/max every character they create.  It happens in any game you play, because people will find and exploit the system as far as the rules allow.  Armageddon doesn't have as much of this as other games, and I am glad for that.

While I do agree the character creation process could be a little better with regard to how stats are distributed initially, and the Imm Staff has commented this is on their radar in another thread, I don't ever want to see stat gains being a part of the game once you begin your character.  I've never heard anyone tell me that they really enjoyed how strong another character was (i.e. Man, do you remember Zule, he was SO agile and his endurance was awesome!), but I have heard them mention how much they enjoyed their personality, role play and what they (not their stats) brought to the game.  Keep the focus on that.

-LoD

[RunningMountain]

Players are already min/maxing characters they create LoD. That's why you get a slew of 35 year old dwarves. And so on. Trying to make the best combonation for the best stats they can get is not that hard already. It's not being able to play a character realistically because the stat rolls are inefficient and unrealistic.

-R

[amoeba]

Players are already min/maxing characters they create LoD. That's why you get a slew of 35 year old dwarves. And so on.

[sarcasm] I love specious arguments like this, they already do it, so lets make it so that they can do it more.  Being able to make a ubber warrior each and every time makes my roleplay so much more realistic.[/sarcasm]

Sorry about the sarcasm, but this horse has been beaten into a bloodly mass.  If you have a better idea, email the mud with it, or apply to be am IMM.

[RunningMountain]

I'm just saying, don't give me an excuse as to why something shouldn't be implemented because it MIGHT be abused, that's everyones excuse for good ideas. There are players that are going to abuse any system. And then there are players who will just work with what they got.

[Larrath]

I'm just saying, don't give me an excuse as to why something shouldn't be implemented because it MIGHT be abused, that's everyones excuse for good ideas. There are players that are going to abuse any system. And then there are players who will just work with what they got.

Okay.  I propose a system that allows players to create any object in the game for their characters, to allow them to find scraps of bread on the street or taking an old sleeping mat from their family's apartment.

Fine, so every other hunter will be completely decked out in metal, camouflage and magickal gear, but those are just people abusing the system, no need to pay them any heed.

[RunningMountain]

That system you propose is a retarded idea. Not a good one.  Re-read my post.

[Larrath]

That system you propose is a retarded idea. Not a good one.  Re-read my post.

No, it's a good idea with a massive abuse risk, which could completely destroy much of the game.
This abuse risk is the exact reason why this system is retarded - after all, if players can load objects when they're needed, and nobody would ever abuse that power, what's bad about this idea?

Players that are already min/maxing the system should be penalized or possibly (depending on the seriousness) even be banned for a short while.  They should not be considered part of the status quo as far as these ideas go.

I am opposed to this idea, simply because I don't see how it will help the game beyond making all of our stats higher.


If you cannot play your current character because your statistics, email the MUD account and any clan imms that you have, and request an adjustment.  We don't need an automatic system to handle the problem less than one out of every hundred characters will truly suffer from.
(The poor strength elf ranger who can't use any bow, the half-giant magicker who has too little mana, and that's about it.)

[Jherlen]

It's not being able to play a character realistically because the stat rolls are inefficient and unrealistic.

So the only way to play a realistic character is to have good stats?

I'm afraid that if you give people control over stats, here is what will happen:

- All the warriors will have great strength and endurance, so they hit harder and have more hp.
- All the rangers will have the best strength possible, so they can use the awesomerest bows.
- All the thieves and assassins will have great agility, so that they can sneak and hide easiest. Assassins will have high strength too, so they can get those 1337 one-hit kill backstabs.
- All the magickers will have great wisdom so they get more mana.

I don't see why stats should have any effect on how well you can play your character, except in the extreme cases like Larrath pointed out. The goal of Armageddon isn't to see who can make the buffest character that can kill everything. (And as has been pointed out elsewhere, your skills are the dominating factor in that anyway.) Just play the game.

[Salt Merchant]

No, it's a good idea with a massive abuse risk,

Actually, it's a bad idea. The database bloat would be incredible if people could create new objects at will.

Just wrote this to be annoying, 'cause I know what you're getting at.  :lol:

[RunningMountain]

It's not being able to play a character realistically because the stat rolls are inefficient and unrealistic.

So the only way to play a realistic character is to have good stats?

I'm afraid that if you give people control over stats, here is what will happen:

How do you know what will happen? That's pretty arrogant and pessimistic of anyone to say what the playerbase will do with something if it's implemented. You're not psychic, and you're not giving the players a very good reputation at all. Hell I thought this was an RPI mud. You know how many things can be abused on here?

It's the fact that it is abuseable but it is not abused that makes Arm different from other muds.

And yes. I am unable to play the massive muscle-bound freak realistically if he rolls poor strength. That's just me, when I can't wield a longsword with someone who should be wielding a greatsword.

[Jherlen]

I'm sure that your massive, musclebound freak will be a pickpocket or a merchant, right RM?

I'm not attempting to be arrogant or pessimistic, I'm expressing a fear of what would happen if control of stats was given over. It's natural for people to want to give themselves advantages. Also, as you yourself have stated, there are players who are going to abuse any system. The more control you give, the more likely I feel that everyone will start assigning stats based on whatever they think their guild needs, to make their character the best codedly. I'm afraid we'll end up with cookie cutter character archetypes like the ones I listed.

Somebody in another thread said how, given the uncertainties of the stat system, he was just avoiding too much "muscular / agile" references in his sdescs and mdescs. I think that's a pretty good strategy. You're not sure how the code will assign your stats, so don't bank on any of them being too high (or low). For the same reason that it's a bad idea to write in your assassin's background how he is the world's most coolest shadow backstabby ninja when he'll be pathetic as a newbie, I think it's a bad idea to try and make a concept based around physical attributes like being strong or fast. Make a personality and a history, let the code decide your physical attributes, and then roll with that and play the game.

[Maybe42or54]

It would be an interesting switch. Total control is a very bad idea.

However, being able to "boost" or "lower" a stat or so isn't a too terrible one from my point of view. Even if you have to trade stats and move them around.

Why are people pick-pockets? Because it is glamourous? Because it pays well? No, it's because they find it easier or less scary than a mercenary.
A pick-pocket learns to be faster, where as a warrior uses his muscles more and therefor is stronger.
Sure, most of it is mental. But if you want to be a warrior, and your better at being a pickpocket, then the other warriors will laugh at your feebleness and you will be a pick-pocket. From my point of View.

Now. Onto age.

At age 13, you should have average, or less than average stats, everytime. With maybe one stat above average.

And yea. Ok. It will be abused, but stats don't matter right? Won't it be more fun since you can give yourself -bad- stats if your Pc needs them? I hate it when I make intellectual characters and they are freakishly strong and take years to learn a simple skill like carving a rock into a chess piece.

[jstorrie]

RM, I swear to God that the 'I want control over my stats!' threads are about the most aggravating ones I ever read on the forum, because they all go the same way:

Someone (often YOU) will say 'I want control over my stats because so-and-so can't do X!'

Nearly everyone else says 'If that case comes up, mail the mud. Otherwise, stop making character concepts so dependant on getting a certain stat roll.'

Then an immortal comes in and says 'We have no intention of giving players more control over their stats. The system will stay as it is.'

Then the thread is dropped until a week or two later, when someone (often YOU) will bring up the same complaint as if it had never been discussed before. Please, just drop the topic for good!

[EvilRoeSlade]

(The poor strength elf ranger who can't use any bow, the half-giant magicker who has too little mana, and that's about it.)

I once had a half-giant magicker with too little mana.  I dropped a friendly E-mail to the staff and within my first three hours of playtime my wisdom score was increased to exceptional.

If your stats make your concept unplayable, then E-mail the staff and ask for them to be modified.  If the staff refuses then in all likelihood it's only because your concept is ridiculous.

[Maybe42or54]

Players are already min/maxing characters they create LoD. That's why you get a slew of 35 year old dwarves. And so on. Trying to make the best combonation for the best stats they can get is not that hard already. It's not being able to play a character realistically because the stat rolls are inefficient and unrealistic.

-R

What? They picked the middle of the life span because that is when everything is normally at it's best. The prime years.

Other then that, I have no clue what you are talking about.

Oh and Jstorrie. No need to be rude. He is saying his opinion. He wants certain things. You want certain things, he responds to things he likes or doesn't like. Just like you. He is just more vocal about it.

*Goes back to listening to my awesome new cd from the Commandant's Own Marine Corps band*

[Kalden]

Someone (often YOU) will say 'I want control over my stats because so-and-so can't do X!'

No. I just want my stats to fit my character. That's all.

As it is I know that people suicide because of bad stats and eventually stick with characters that have good stats. It's really not hard to do so.

[Agent_137]

Someone (often YOU) will say 'I want control over my stats because so-and-so can't do X!'

No. I just want my stats to fit my character. That's all.

As it is I know that people suicide because of bad stats and eventually stick with characters that have good stats. It's really not hard to do so.

Let me tell you a story. Let me tell all of you a story.

I was young, made my second character, and first after a looong absence.

I was silly enough to write into his sdesc that he was burly.

He ended up with a really nice agility roll and a low strength roll. Totally playable as a quick and agile warrior, but that wasn't his sdesc or his character concept.

So i emailed the mud. I told them what happened. They said, "Ok." and dropped my beautifully high agility down and upped my strength and equal amount.

I ended up being mostly average in both stats, instead of super bad ass in agility and sucky in strength. But , i matched my sdesc, and i was pleased.

The moral of the story is: DON'T MAKE A CHAR CONCEPT BASED ON A HIGH STAT ROLL.

the other moral is:
THE IMMORTALS ARE YOUR FRIENDS. IF YOU ARE NICE AND REASONABLE, THEY ARE TOO.

the final moral is:
STATS ARE FINE. GO HOME.

[Agent_137]

As it is I know that people suicide because of bad stats and eventually stick with characters that have good stats. It's really not hard to do so.

p.s.

those people are stupid twinks. tell them to go play aardwolf. Stats don't matter that much if you're roleplaying.

p.p.s.
if stats do impact your roleplay, talk to the immortals and they can help you, as in the above post.