Continuing the Experiment

[Sanvean]

For those coming in late, here's the situation.  Last year the staff implemented a policy where we would only take submissions for objects/NPCs/rooms/etc if they were for a project listed on the Current Projects blog at http://www.zalanthas.org/blogs/current/  We also said that character who were master crafters were the exception to this rule and could create a special item once a month, in order to enhance the value of being a crafter and still allow a limited number of custom items into the game.  the item would be created and given to them and could then be sold to the person commissioning the item.

This addressed a number of problems, including but not limited to the following:

* People writing things specifically for their character.  This included things like entire outfits.   And then getting very pissed off if the item wasn't added to the game in what they felt was a timely fashion.  Sometimes at the staff, but usually at whatever poor player was running the merchant they'd ordered it from.  

* Staff feeling overwhelmed by the sheer volume of submissions they were getting.  Even when they would dutifully create them all, they would then have to get them checked by a HL+ who (understandably) when faced with the prospect of checking over a batch of 30 objects or NPCs would run screaming in terror or else suddenly lose link.

* Submissions that were not suitable for the game.  This includes things like anachronisms, mistakes made because the player wasn't familiar with (for instance) guidelines for what materials are available in the south versus the north, and submissions that were, unfortunately, not up to our standards (descriptions full of typos and grammatical errors or one line descriptions along the line of 'This is an osbidine mace.'  That's not an exaggeration.)  Players felt frustrated when their efforts didn't go in and they were justified in that feeling, given that they'd put time and thought into their submission.

At the same time, because we value player contributions to the game, we wanted to try to make the most of that enthusiasm and effort by asking people to focus on existing projects, thus helping out the staff member driving the project as well as ensuring that the players' effort wouldn't be wasted.

The results have been mixed.  There have definitely been positives.  One staff member noted "I think it's actually had a good effect on RP as I see far less players focusing on that one special item that only they have. "  Players running merchants have had an easier time of it.  There have been fewer OMG WHY ISN'T MY MOSS HANDLED KNIFE IN THE GAME YET GET OFF YOUR LAZY BUTTZ e-mails to the account, which means my blood pressure doesn't fluctuate quite as rapidly.

At the same time, the response to the Current Projects blog hasn't been a sweeping success, perhaps because people don't notice it, or because it tends to look stagnant.

What I'd like to do is open things up a little bit for people who want to add to the world.  As a recent example, perhaps creating statues for Allanak.  This seems like a fine idea to me, and I'd like to see some submissions.  I don't want to see more submissions of the type where someone creates an object purely because they want their character to have it, because that seems unfair to other players.  For that sort of thing, I'd like to keep the master crafter system in place -- as I noted earlier, it does add value to being a crafter.

Perhaps a GDB forum would be the best way to address this, one where a) staff can post calls for help with projects and b) players can post submissions or ideas.  I'd like some feedback from the player side of things, if you would all be so kind.    What do you think of this idea and how might you refine it?

[moab]

I have always thought that perhaps a couple of Imm slots could be opened for those who were interested in helping write up objects and mobs and nothing more.  Additionally, entrusting that object imm (or whatever) with the ability to approve the objects and mobs would reduce the stress of the HL that normally does it as I'm sure they have plenty of other things to tend to.

I would totally be interested in that as I love writing up things but dislike interacting with the players on an ooc basis that doesn't involve alcohol or nudity. ;-)

It would help with the "staff feeling overwhelmed" issue.

I thought that the community project blog was where the calls for submissions were made by Imms to the player-base.  If a GDB forum were created for this purpose, would the community project blog go bye bye?

The idea of needing a master craftsperson to create custom objects for a particular pc is excellent because it stimulates game-play and the economy, moreso if the master crafter needs to subcontract hunters to get hold of some materials.

[Tamarin]

I would have much rather seen a entire forum dedicated to submissions that the staff need.  I could never find the staff blog, or even the original post that you put up saying what the new policies were regarding submissions and whatnot.

One thing that I'd like to start doing is making all kinds of different instruments and adding them to the game.  As it stands, everyone who has an instument has one of the following: mandolin, guitar, lute, fiddle, violin, drum, or sometimes a harp. That's insanity, I tell you!  There should be like 30 different -cool- kinds of instruments.  And with original names and designs too...I'm so sick of the same old stuff.  What say you, oh mighty staff?

[ale six]

How big is the response when staff post asking for submissions on the GDB? In recent ones, like Halaster's post for AoD ranks it seemed pretty good. Other times when I've seen Naiona ask for torture emotes or tapestry writeups I've been tempted to reply and just haven't out of shame for my own meager writing skills.

But if the GDB gets better response than the blog does, a forum sounds good. I'd just be a little worried about people trying to show off, or one person who writes something up discouraging other people from submitting, but a place with posts that say "send us this over email, use this thread to discuss related topics" might be cool?


Also, what constitutes a "master crafter" and how do you know if your PC can be considered one or not? Is this something that should just be discussed with the staff on an individual basis before you submit something? And can you only be considered a master crafter in crafting skills that you get from your main guild, or would a subguild skill that you've become good at be eligible as well, if your PC would use it enough?

[Sanvean]

I have always thought that perhaps a couple of Imm slots could be opened for those who were interested in helping write up objects and mobs and nothing more.

We've tried this a few times and each time the results haven't been good.  One thing that's been tossed around on the staff side is a web form where people could submit things which would then output what needed to be typed in game in order to facilitate that end of things.  That's a definite possibility, but those submissions will still need to be double-checked by someone.

Master-crafter status is determined by your skill - if you're at a certain level (very close to maxxed out), you are a master-crafter with that particular skill.  The best way to determine whether you've hit the level is to email mud beforehand and make sure it's okay.  A sub-guild skill will only reach master-crafter status if it's part of your actual guild's skill list.  Sub-guilds are intended to reflect background skills acquired by your character before they actually start play and do not reach the same levels main guild skills do.

The submissions forum would be moderated in a way that would (I hope) discourage "you suck" type responses.  Making it a forum that you would have to actually apply to in order to read/post in might cut down on these as well.  Staff have noted that they get much broader response to calls posted in Staff Announcements than the blog, and the blog would go away.  A sticky in the forum could hold the formatting info as well as links to useful resources.

I'm leaning this way at the moment, and suggest things like the question about instruments are great, but should be held for the arrival of such a forum.  (I agree they'd be a good addition, but right now I want to focus on the question of the forum itself and the form it should take.)

[Rindan]

To be honest, I didn't even know that that blog existed until right now.  I wish I had know because some of those projects look interesting.

The blog is fine, but it isn't terribly visible.  I personally like the idea of another form.  Throw in a sticky with a link to the crafting guidelines.  Set it so that only imms can start new topics, but let players be able to post in that form under existing topics so that they can ask questions if they need more clarification.  Then just moderate those questions like a bastard to keep it clutter free.  In envision a form where imms post what they want, a player asks a question or two for clarification, then when there is no longer a need for more submissions the post is deleted.

I think the new forum solution work well because not only is it more visible to more players, but it also has the added bonus of being easy on the imms to make requests of the playerbase.

[Larrath]

First of all, I agree with moab's suggestion that more people are allowed to approve objects.  These don't need to be new staff members - if even one Storyteller was allowed to approve objects, I imagine that the burden would be reduced.
Additionally, must every object be reviewd by another staff member?  Suppose that a painter PC created a painting - as an object, it is type 'Art' with value 200, weight 3 stone, and etwo-able.  This object is, as far as game balance is concerned, completely useless and unimportant.  As long as the Storyteller proofreads the object and makes sure none of the values are insane, why would this object have to sit in another queue until a HL had a look at it?
The same goes for the rest of the 'cosmetic' objects - clothes, furniture, jewelry, tattoos and cutlery.
As long as the object has no special properties (being a component, or having offensive/defensive uses, or a relatively high value, or having stat/skill modification, or being a poison), I don't really see why it would have to be reviewed.

I'm not a big fan of the 'master crafters' concept.  If my Warrior/Tailor is able to make long frilly gowns from silk and lace, why can't this same warrior make a black sandcloth vest with a tembo embroidered on the front?  I think that anyone should be able to submit objects to the game - if I think Allanak doesn't have enough high-end thobes, I don't want to have to make a Merchant/Tailor, spam my skills and submit a thobe a month.
I do think that the custom objects PCs are able to make should be restricted by their skill level, and it can be handled by a very simple chart based on crafting difficulty on existing objects.
If a regular sandcloth vest has a difficulty rating of Clothmaking 5 and a silk dress has Clothmaking 70, let a custom sandcloth vest be Clothmaking 10 and a dress Clothmaking 75.

Also, I think that making submissions go through the Mantis menu make everything easier for everyone.
First of all, it will not only completely standardize the submissions format, it will also save the staff-member from pasting everything into the editor, letting them just read the information and review/edit it there.
Second, if the object is requested for one's character, it can log the character's crafting skills.
Third, it can have "No Whining" written all over the proccess.
Fourth, by containing examples of good objects, will stop most 'osbidine' maces from being submitted.
Fifth, it could have a pretty list in the end where the submitter can see what they've sent to the MUD already.
Sixth, it would keep the submissions out of the email boxes, saving staff time.

Essentially, this will work the same way as character applications do, only without the attempt to review everything within 24 hours.

A GDB board for submissions could also help a lot - I really never understood why the Fashion group was restricted, and I think that with a rename and a few sub-boards inside could do perfectly.
I think this board should be free for all posts, though, as long as they're all on-topic.  A few 'how-to write good NPCs' threads could be nice, for example.

[Puppet]

What about some sort of mutual e-mail account that the staff could take turns checking to sort through the submissions? That way, its more accessible than some hidden blog, and not as public as a new forum?

[Dan]

Would the component-crafting skill be out of the question when it comes to 'master crafter' status?

[Vanth]

Would the component-crafting skill be out of the question when it comes to 'master crafter' status?

No.

[Sanvean]

( I want to say thank you to Larrath - his thoughtful and well-written email to the mud account prompted this discussion in the first place.)

Additionally, must every object be reviewd by another staff member?

Yeah, it does.  This is something I don't want to compromise on because one of the things the game is notable for is the quality of the writing.  I know from experience that I make stupid typos on occasion, so I'm not casting aspersions on anyone's ability to write, I think.  We're reviewing more than just whether the thing belongs in the world and fits the guidelines -we're also doublechecking the writing, making sure the values like weight/cost/material type are right, etc.

Being able to do the submissions through a web interface sounds like a great idea.  It also sounds like something that a coder would need to put some serious time into, and my preference with such things is to go for the simplest solution, and one that doesn't end up getting bogged down waiting for someone to implement and test it.  

...if I think Allanak doesn't have enough high-end thobes, I don't want to have to make a Merchant/Tailor, spam my skills and submit a thobe a month.

The way this would (imo) be handled is that you'd post in the Submissions forum something like "Hey, there aren't enough high-end thobes in the game".  Get a staff member to sign off on it and you're in business and ready to start writing them up.  The Merchant creating thobes through the master-crafter process is creating objects for her/his character to sell.

[Seeker]

My thoughts from last year haven't really changed that much.

I really think that some way to allow players who feel that they have something worth contributing to the game ought to be permitted, and I am glad to see this being considered again.

The use of a GBD Forum is probably the easiest, but I would like to see e-mailing the staff with a concept or a project to solicit a sponsor as a possibility also.  

Some things are more fun to work on if they are not publicly displayed before they are implemented.  Environmental echoes is a good example of where the surprise of first seeing it IG is ruined by having it on the forums.

[Disclaimer] I am still pouty over this issue. [/Disclaimer]


Seeker

[Vesperas]

I've seen the blog a couple of times, but my main "issue" is that it indeed appeared stagnant.

I was never sure, up until this thread, about whether or not an imm was still working on the posted projects.  It wouldn't do me any good to go through all the trouble of trying to make up decent ideas for items for a project that was already completed -- would be a waste of my time AND the imms involved.

I'm not so sure about how a forum will out.  I'm partially all for keeping certain things IC, and this includes particular items.  In that regard, I wouldn't want people able to submit thier ideas directly onto the forum for all to see.  Second, looking at how the blog has sat for so long without any updates, a forum would probably do the same thing.  I'd log onto the GDB every day, never see that little check mark signifiying something new appear, and would never enter the forum.  

Whichever way is decided on -- going to a GDB forum or staying with the blog -- I'd suggest kicking life into it every so often.  I havn't the faintest clue just how busy imms are up there, but switching up projects frequently would help to keep things fresh, and would give players a wider variety of topics to try to write for.  For example, I'm not really too familiar with acceptable foods in-game, so I wouldn't touch the food project with a ten-foot pole.  The clothing project, on the other hand, I would have a much easier (and more enjoyable) time tackling.  Those are just my person preferences, and someone else may find it just the opposite.

[Cenghiz]

Err.. I'd like to add.. It's not very very important for me, since I never could find a good story for a burglar but still out of curiousity; may burglars be master pickmakers?
.....
The tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak holds his elongated, cloak-carved pick.
The tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak tells you in Sirihish, showing his elongated, cloak-carved pick:
    "Yes.. I'm the 'cloak'.. Now tell me where you want me to break in.."