Payday

[Bebop]

Whenever you are in a House does anyone else have problems getting paid?  Sometimes you or the people in charge aren't there at the right time and you have to ask for it later every time.  Is there a way that money could automatically but into a clan members bank account?  I've heard some PC's say IC they haven't been paid in a year!

[bloodfromstone]

I've been one of those PCs that wasn't paid for a year. I'd really love to see some sort of direct deposit. Not getting paid because of your playing times is lame, and it doesn't make sense ICly.

[Manhattan]

also, how do pc superiors remember who to pay and when to pay and all that? it all seems very confusing because there can literally be 20 clan members running around, hired at different times, different ranked, and thus all have different payrolls....how does anybody remember all that?

[Synthesis]

Remembering, fortunately, is done much better by computers.

Coincidentally, a computer is a prerequisite for playing the game, so you're already well on your way!

Text documents if you like to keep it simple.  Spreadsheets if you're an anal-retentive organizational freak.  Databases if you're a complete nerd.

[Bebop]

Remembering, fortunately, is done much better by computers.

Coincidentally, a computer is a prerequisite for playing the game, so you're already well on your way!

Text documents if you like to keep it simple.  Spreadsheets if you're an anal-retentive organizational freak.  Databases if you're a complete nerd.

The thing is it just doesn't get done unless someone akwardly keeps bring it up.

[Anonymous]

It's not just people being crappy leaders, guys.  It's problems coordinating playtimes with both players and staff if you don't have access to the clan bank.  Having some payment schedule won't help if you are logging in a different hours.

[HardCarbon]

Whenever you are in a House does anyone else have problems getting paid?  Sometimes you or the people in charge aren't there at the right time and you have to ask for it later every time.  Is there a way that money could automatically but into a clan members bank account?  I've heard some PC's say IC they haven't been paid in a year!

  Heh.. it is a problem.  Me.. I usually get killed.

[Jherlen]

Sometimes leaders would like to withhold pay on purpose, though, like if your character is a fuckup and does something stupid to lose their salary over.

Other times, you get people who don't log in for three weeks straight, and then show up asking for their pay first thing. You don't want to pay them, because they haven't done anything for you (they were virtually in the clan, so they get virtual pay.)

If somebody was able to hire you, somebody should be able to pay you. I wouldn't want to see any sort of direct deposit.

[Halaster]

This is one of the things we as staff have discussed many times, and have decided to not automate it.

We most definitely have the ability to write code/script that can automate the process and be quite fancy with it (Raesanos' awesome automated apartments are a great example).  We could have people get paid by just showing up to an npc and asking to get paid, and it would know when they last got paid, how much they should get, and even how much time they've been online.

The reason we've steered away from doing that is mainly because we feel it would take away one of the roleplaying opportunities that leader types have with those they lead, plain and simple.  There's no real other reason than that.  We'd rather people have the occasional hard time getting paid but still get that interaction than automate it all.

Now, if you're having a specifically hard time with a specific clan, please email the staff of the clan.

[Anonymous]

Just because they can't log in doesn't mean they shouldn't get paid if they're virtually in the House and around I think.  And of course there maybe could be some way for higherups to dock pay just like they can put you in the House and stuff.  I don't think it should be so awkward to get paid. Even if you can't be on all the time you still can do your best when you are on.  It's not the Houses have anything to lose by actually paying people the amount they said.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'll play devil's advocate for a moment.  I actually like the awkwardness of the pay system.  I've had characters on both ends of the spectrum, times when I was the one trying to find a leader in order to collect, and other times when I was the one trying to find all the people I was supposed to pay, with varying degrees of success.  So what's to like?

Paying people is one form of interaction between leaders and followers, and it's one that the leader can exercise a high degree of control over, everything from docking someone's pay to handing out a nice bonus if they choose to.  Autopay would also enable a newly recruited character to skip out on any interactive activities, avoid clan leaders like the plague, not do much of anything really... and yet somehow still cash in on being a member of the clan.  At least if you have to find a Sergeant to get paid for doing nothing, you get the chance to interact with the Sergeant by lying to them about what all you've done

If paying people straight up isn't working - for whatever reason you're logged in during peak only, and one of your clannies has taken a night shift job and is only on when you're at work, there are alternate systems.  Most clans offer storage.  Arrange to leave their pay in a pouch in their chest/locker/footlocker.  Could it be stolen?  Of course.  That leaves room for interesting dishonesty though.  You could claim it was stolen when it wasn't... or maybe it really was stolen, but finding out who did it could be interesting.  Alternately, send their pay through someone.  If another character in the clan is on during both your playtimes and the unpaid person's paytimes, courier it through a third party.  Room for bad things to happen?  Sure!  But that's what makes life interesting.

Now, about leaders just flat not logging in... that's a bit stickier.  Emailing your clan imms in that case is your best bet to arrange something.

In brief, I think there are more interesting and interactive ways to arrange to pay people even when circumstances with playing times are less than ideal.  Perfect systems like autopay are boring, while imperfect systems offer opportunities for roleplay.

[Larrath]

Perhaps pay can be semi-automated, like so:

Code Select Expand


(Leader POV}
>east
A Harem [NESW]
A money-grabbing whore is here.

>pay list
There are no set payments.

>pay Amos 240
"Amos" will be paid 240 coins.
>pay Grunt 300 coins [14]
"Grunt" will be paid 300 coins each 14 RL days.
>pay list
Amos - 240 (one time)
Grunt - 300 (per 14 RL days)


Code Select Expand


Grunt POV
> east
A money-grabbing whore is here.
> pay check
You have pending payment (300 coins).
> pay withdraw
A money-grabbing whore gives you 300 coins.


The NPC would check the PCs keyword list in order to see if they deserve any pay, and that's it really.  This will distribute the payment without going around the leader, unless the leader chooses to automate it (for which they could face IC concequences if it turned out a bad idea).

[proxie]

Sometimes due to login times, the payday is the only time a PC leader can know who's still in the clan and who's gone AWOL, eaten by tembo, or defected to the vestrics.

Also, how likely really is it that your Sergeant, who usually is an unwashed, uneducated commoner, is going to have the magickal knowledge of exactly when the first day of the month is? And if they don't know, then how would your grunt PC know to ask for pay?

I would love to see 'time' reduced to a more mysterious function, based on the PC's level of education and bloodline.

Code Select Expand

It is late afternoon on Huegel, the 30th day of the Low Sun,
In the Year of Lirathu's Anger, year 22 of the 21st Age.
Would become:

Code Select Expand

It is late afternoon in the middle of the week, the beginning of the month of Low Sun. In the year of Lirathu's Anger, year 22 of the 21st Age.

Obviously something not quite as clunky as that. Then you'd have to ask your noble, templar, merchant family member, or a scribe for the exact date if you needed it to remember what day your kid was born, you moved in with your mate, or hired on with a House. Maybe even an NPC stand like the guy with the scale.

If you have trouble getting hooked up with your superiors, make arrangements through your imm, the clan boards, or your pc's buddies to pick up their pay for you. If it's -THAT- much trouble, then exactly how much work are you really doing in your organization under that superior?

I personally wouldn't want to pay someone for too long if they can't ever make it online when the rest of the clan is on. I'd transfer them to another PC leader in the clan if there was one, or I'd IC'ly ask them to strongly reconsider their choice of vocation to one where they can show up and train/work with their comrades.

And no, I'm not bashing those who play at off peak times. But rule one when considering a clan to join is whether or not they're on when you are. If that changes, and you can't recruit more players for your time, then something needs to be done. Nobody likes 100% solo emoting and virtually doing your job isn't always going to cut it.

Proxie

[Cuusardo]

#1: Don't be afraid to ask for the pay you're entitled to.  People forget stuff sometimes, and a reminder won't hurt.

#2: Coordinating playtimes (you can use PMs or the clan forum if you have to) can help out a LOT.

#3: The IMMs tend to be pretty understanding if your playtimes just don't mesh with the PCs who pay people.  Drop them a line, and they can arrange for something.

[Scarborough]

There's one thing I haven't seen suggested:  If I'm not paid in real life, after trying to make multiple arrangements with my boss in real life, I quit that job.  I know that some Houses have you swear for life, but I'd be inclined to go look for a different person to work for and sort out the swearing or consequences later.

[moab]

Re: Quitting

I've done this with a few past characters - but I now believe this to be unrealistic.  I kinda think that paying anyone still in their 1st year or so to be unrealistic too.

Zalanthas is harsh.
You are LUCKY to have a job.
You might not get the black when you like it, but you do get food and water and a bed (usually).
That's better than most.

Would you really quit all that free food because you couldn't buy a new set of cracked leather boots?

[picklehead]

Just because they can't log in doesn't mean they shouldn't get paid if they're virtually in the House and around I think. And of course there maybe could be some way for higherups to dock pay just like they can put you in the House and stuff. I don't think it should be so awkward to get paid. Even if you can't be on all the time you still can do your best when you are on. It's not the Houses have anything to lose by actually paying people the amount they said.

I don't agree with this. It's one thing to only be able to log in every so often and expect to get paid, but if you vanish for months at a time, showing up only to get your paysack, that would probably piss me off. Actually, it indeed does piss me off. I feel that if you're only there virtually, you're getting paid virtually and blowing it on spice and whores. For one thing, when you're not logging in you're not contributing anything to your group and you're not incurring any personal expenses, so showing up after two RL months and expecting a couple thousand coins to be tossed your way should meet with some resistance, IMO.

[Cale_Knight]

I feel that if you're only there virtually, you're getting paid virtually and blowing it on spice and whores.

I disagree. You're in absolutely no position to dictate what another player is doing in his virtual time. I think in a situation like the one mentioned above, it would be something for the imms to take care of, since I do agree that it's unfair for a player to not contribute to the PCs in the group and still expect to get paid.

[Vesperas]

Even when the player isn't logged in, the sun does rise and fall.  While we can't dictate what it is they do with their virtual money, they are still doing something with it (which is why they don't have it in tangible form).  They may be tavern-squatting, paying whores, giving money to the poorer, getting theived from every time they turn around, whatever.

Whatever they are doing with their virtual pay is up to them, but you can't really expect someone to get payed and never, ever spend their money over a long period of time.  I mean, come on.

[Twilight]

I don't especially like IC consequences due to OOC considerations.  Not being in the game is an OOC consideration.  While I think virtual pay for people not around for long stretches is fine, can you please tell me how, exactly, you as a PC (lets leave imms out of it for now) would know if another PC wasn't around?

And its not because you can't see them.  I could be playing a heck of a lot, and only see other people who play a heck of a lot occassionaly, if ever, due to play times.  Just because you haven't seen them does not mean they haven't been doing things for the clan, or haven't been doing their job.

The characters job is not to be around and interact with you.  Sorry.

If you are RP'ing that your character hasn't seen mine around in an IC year, and I'm RP'ing that I've been right there in the workshop/sparring ring/tavern doing what I am supposed to in my virtual time and you are freaking blind, and we have both played 48 game hours in the last RL month, um, who exactly is right?  Because those discrepencies should not come down to who is more senior in the organization.

So, maybe a bit off the original topic.  I don't like the idea of an automated payroll system.  Too mechanical.  Come up with innovative ideas.  If it is a trusted person, pay them the damn next 5 years salary and tell them to take care of this and that recruits salary with it, and to get back to you when they get low.  Pay them random amounts every time you see them, rather than their set salary.  Make them dance for their pay (oh wait, Fales are closed, darn).  Something.

[amoeba]

The characters job is not to be around and interact with you.  Sorry.

If you are RP'ing that your character hasn't seen mine around in an IC year, and I'm RP'ing that I've been right there in the workshop/sparring ring/tavern doing what I am supposed to in my virtual time and you are freaking blind, and we have both played 48 game hours in the last RL month, um, who exactly is right?  Because those discrepencies should not come down to who is more senior in the organization.

Okay it is a bit of a derailment, but I think this does play into why pay isn't and probably shouldn't be automated.

Having played a sergeant in a very active clan, I can tell you the flip side is also true.  I can state with some certainty that there are players who logged in minimally and yet wanted full benefits for promotion, backpay and the like for all the virtual time they have spent.  Leaders are expected to take it on the word of the recruit that they were there for every training session, they never screwed up, and they are the ideal candiate for promotion.

Now I was very active at logging in, and made a point working my way up to the promotion.  So who is right in this case?   IMHO I think the recruit should at least send a courtesy email to the clan IMMs stating thier postition, then this information can filter down to the leaders. Otherwise you are simply taking the word of someone, who may very likely be pulling your leg.

In the case of the pay, should that person be rewarded with pay?  What if they are gooffing around in the wastes instead of putting in the required duties?   Should they get paid?  What if they have deserted, should they still get an automatic deposit?  This takes PC to PC interaction.   The ones that irked me, were the ones that you are 99% certian haven't logged in for weeks or even months on end, then show up and *demand* all thier backpay.  There has to be some middle ground here.

[Delirium]

I generally agree with amoeba in this case.  Pay should not be automated.

In some cases it takes a quick email to the Immortals, as ayone of authority in a military or guard-style clan should be able to check with other officers or drill instructors to see if said PC was actually there (i.e., they've been logging in at least occasionally and tending duty), or whether they were absent (i.e., they've been skipping duty or they deserted).  

If the PC has been completely absent from the game for RL weeks or months, but attending duties "virtually", then as far as a superior PC should be concerned, they haven't been doing duties -that- officer assigned but those of another superior's - so they can take their pay from the virtual superior.  Meaning, assume they got their pay and spent it.

[Salt Merchant]

It looks like there are two issues here. When was the PC last paid? Does the PC deserve to be paid?

The issue of 'when' could be automated to an extent. If the PC's file contains a field indicating the date, and a 'pay <x> <y>' command were defined that does the same thing as 'give <x> y coins' but also updates that field at the same time, a 'paymaster' NPC could be created that will answer a query about when that PC was last paid. This would let the PC in charge of handing out coin check and settle up as he or she sees fit.

This would also help Imms see at a glance what's going on with the pay in their respective clans and whether a PC's claim is valid.

[amoeba]

This would also help Imms see at a glance what's going on with the pay in their respective clans and whether a PC's claim is valid.

Not really. There would be people who would log in just long enough to get paid. Or those deserters/slackoffs would sneak in long enough to collect thier pay and run.  I remember a PC that used to -only- show up on payday, until he was shown the error of his ways. NPCs just ain't that smart.

[Salt Merchant]

This would also help Imms see at a glance what's going on with the pay in their respective clans and whether a PC's claim is valid.

Not really. There would be people who would log in just long enough to get paid. Or those deserters/slackoffs would sneak in long enough to collect thier pay and run.  I remember a PC that used to -only- show up on payday, until he was shown the error of his ways. NPCs just ain't that smart.

Remember, all the NPC would do is report when the PC had last been paid. So no one could sneak in, scarf their pay and leave without dealing with another PC.  And if PCs start complaining it's been over a year since they were last paid, there would be hard evidence immediately available to the Imm to back them up.

[amoeba]

This would also help Imms see at a glance what's going on with the pay in their respective clans and whether a PC's claim is valid.

Not really. There would be people who would log in just long enough to get paid. Or those deserters/slackoffs would sneak in long enough to collect thier pay and run.  I remember a PC that used to -only- show up on payday, until he was shown the error of his ways. NPCs just ain't that smart.

Remember, all the NPC would do is report when the PC had last been paid. So no one could sneak in, scarf their pay and leave without dealing with another PC.  And if PCs start complaining it's been over a year since they were last paid, there would be hard evidence immediately available to the Imm to back them up.

I get where you are going with it, but it all seems very dry and  well..eh.  I think leaders and/or clan imms should be involved somehow. I just like the idea of the recruit needing to speak to a boss at some point. I mean that is part of the clan RP experience, even if that recruit deserves to be paid, something about handing over that pay personaly.

[Salt Merchant]

I just like the idea of the recruit needing to speak to a boss at some point. I mean that is part of the clan RP experience, even if that recruit deserves to be paid, something about handing over that pay personaly.

I completely agree. I pictured the 'pay' command as something that would only work if both the PC eligible to be paid and the PC handling pay are face to face online.

[Jherlen]

I apologise if my earlier comment led to the derailing of the thread into paying absentee/inactive pcs, but I do think it's one of the reasons why automated pay is bad. I think amoeba, picklehead and Delerium all put it well.

In the end, your superior is the one paying you. It's them you need to convince you earned your money. Your House as a whole probably doesn't care if you get your 500 sids a month or not, there are no fair treatment of worker laws. Pay is just a way to maintain loyalty among the ranks and give you reason to obey / report to whoever you're supposed to be working under.