Pet Peeves

[Anonymous]

In ERS' defense, not that he needs it, but in this thread the length of time specific documentation and history has been in place seems to be the specific reason to not change ranks in a way that makes sense.

That's one specific reason I can see why how long documentation has been in place is a factor, because it was at other times.

Personally I think slave roles, as they currently exist, are horrible and unplayable to those without a specific mindset, so if muls are changed to the effect that escaped muls are no longer a viable option I'd probably never role another one.  Which may be the point.

[Cale_Knight]

I once had the pleasure of playing in the same clan as an extremely well-played (in my opinion) slave mul. My thoughts of him as a player were split pretty evenly between "this guy is awesome!" and "how the hell can he stand such a limited role?"

[LoD]

In ERS' defense, not that he needs it, but in this thread the length of time specific documentation and history has been in place seems to be the specific reason to not change ranks in a way that makes sense.

That's one specific reason I can see why how long documentation has been in place is a factor, because it was at other times.

I don't see how the two scenario's are linked besides both having an Imm replying within the thread.  The thread you link above refers to a PC's request for clarification on what they perceive as a possible mistake in the documentation/setup of a clan rank.

The thread I'm referring to contains a PC questioning the Imm's right to alter/change documentation on the RP of an entire race which they feel warrants further elaboration and development.  Perhaps the Imm Staff feels that no one is going to 'abuse' the rank of Corporal and, thus, it doesn't need any change in the clan documentation.  Perhaps they haven't had any problems with the way people played 'Corporals' enough to change the documentation.

Personally I think slave roles, as they currently exist, are horrible and unplayable to those without a specific mindset, so if muls are changed to the effect that escaped muls are no longer a viable option I'd probably never role another one.  Which may be the point.

Slave roles can probably seem horrible and unplayable to some people.  They aren't for everyone because they are difficult.  That's why mul karma is of a high rank, because playing them isn't easy nor should it be.  The race isn't there to provide someone with the opportunity to create a physically superior version of a role any human could assume.  It's there to provide another layer of the Zalanthan social order and allow players to adopt that role should they so choose.

Ask yourself why would someone -want- to make an escaped mul?  To play out the mental anguish of leaving a pampered life of free food, water, shelter and instructed purpose for a desert environment for which they've not been prepared that holds promises of death, pain and worse around every corner?  Or for the kickass stats?  You can play the first role by selecting a human.  Why does it need to be a mul?  What about the mul will make that experience even more rewarding for both you and the people interacting with you?

Standards are put in place to maintain the balance between a role of exception vs. that of normality - especially amongst PC's.  HG's are almost always very stupid.  Elves almost always do not ride mounts.  Dwarves almost always adhere their actions to a single focus until it is completed.  And muls are almost always going to be slaves.  People may not enjoy the RP that goes hand in hand with these restrictions, but that's been implemented for good reason.

-LoD

[Xygax]

ERS:  Thanks for the reference.  As Naiona suggests, that document will eventually be brought more in-line with the current staff views on mul RP and slave RP in general.

I'm not sure whether the mention of my (or Naiona's) tenure as a staff member qualifies as an ad hominem attack or not, but I can assure you that I consider it irrelevent.

In the meantime, let's get this thread back on-topic:  pet peeves.

-- X

[Anonymous]

I don't see how the two scenario's are linked besides both having an Imm replying within the thread.  The thread you link above refers to a PC's request for clarification on what they perceive as a possible mistake in the documentation/setup of a clan rank.

In that thread Raesanos specifically mentioned the long exitence of current documentation which was used as a reason not to make a change, so it seems like ERS was within reason to point that out as a reason to not change muls.

[moab]

Like it or not, I think the should/could  changing of documentation argument is something we can't argue about.

The immortals in charge of a particular project should be free (while remaining within the limits of the system) to change their documentation as they see fit.

If someone brings a bad argument to the table (document has been around too long to just change) that doesn't mean that the idea of not changing the document is bad or good.  It only means that immortal is not interested in changing it or maybe they as a group have decided to wait on that until they've decided something.  Or maybe the moon is made of blue cheese. I don't really know. And neither do you.

The question we can ask is "is it a good idea to change x documentation" and hope the resulting discussion attracts some attention.

So - the current thread is pretty pointless but as is the current task I'm assigned at work, allow me to join you in beating the dead kank.  :-D

The Muls I've encountered as slaves and escaped have nearly always been played really well. I can think of only two exceptions and they were not glaring.

The Muls I've played have usually fallen short one way or another, I feel with only one or two exceptions.

The people who encounter muls have almost unfailingly played them unrealistically.  The exception being the Wyvern and Borsail - those who truly know how to treat their meat.  :-D

Immortals bend over backwards, twisting things to make playing a captured or enslaved mul more fun for the player.

In my mind the only good role to play as an enslaved mul is  Byn or Kuraci mul - the rest so much boring.  I tried the slave thing. It didn't work.  I think that if we disallow escaped muls (and no one saying we're not) we will ruin their attraction for the majority.  Maybe that's a good thing.  Sad for me, perhaps, but good for the game.

If we allow escaped muls then those muls have to learn to be more blood-thirsty, more violent and more torn with regret, fear and self-loathing.  Mul players have the same battle that magicky types have.  You have to make others fear you.  You have to do this by being fearsome .  Unfortunately this sometimes requires you to PK brutally, to let everyone know that - hey this mul isn't interested in my coin, he's interested in seeing my insides laid out on the sand.

Once other PCs realize that escaped muls are pretty much talking braxat (whether they truly are or not) and once we really push for bounties on hunting down muls, then we have some good stuff.

Like someone said in another thread - be the change.

I hope the next escaped mul I play, I do it right.  We'll see.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Orphans.  Orphans really bother me.  One of the questions I like to ask when playing a character that hires people is along the lines of "Tell me about your family."  Now, I'm not saying that you can't have dead parents, but I think a true orphan in Zalanthas would be rare.  In the case of tribal families - if your parent (or parents) die, you've got an entire tribe to take care of you.  In the case of city dwellers, people don't just pack up and move from Allanak to Tuluk very commonly.  That means that all of your parent's siblings, your aunts and uncles, their children (your cousins), your grandparents, a few second cousins, and so on are probably living nearby if not in the same apartment building (or even crammed into the same room) as you.  So your parents die... not really a big deal, you end up absorbed into the larger family structure, because frankly, death is pretty common so everyone makes do.  Don't know who your father is?  Not a problem.  In some African cultures, it's not uncommon to be raised by your mother and an uncle and not know who your father is.  Why an uncle?  Well, you know that your sister's kids are related to you, but you might not know who your kids are.  Better to be responsible for the children that you know absolutely are blood relatives, right?

On a related (pun intended) topic, I dislike the attitude many people seem to take towards characters who have multiple partners.  That's not to say that there aren't reasons to look down on someone's choice of sexual partners.  If you catch Lord Valika in bed with Jane Bynner, booyah, mock away.  If Sally Kadius and Kevin Salarr are married and contracted to produce children and Sally gets caught kanking Jack Kurac, there are going to be problems.  When Chosen Lord Uaptal's commoner aide gets pregnant with the Chosen Lord's baby, hoo boy, yeah, that's a problem.  But Don Driamusek getting it on with everyone he meets or Sergeant Tanya of Tor boffing every militia officer she can get her hands on?  Eh, who cares.  Let's review.  Good reasons to gossip about someone's sex life:  they're bedding someone of much lower station, someone of a different race, someone from a different city, someone outside their marriage contract.  Bad reasons: they have lots of partners, concurrent or consecutive.

[Cale_Knight]

Jack Kurac.

What an awesome name.

[Tamarin]

Jacques Kurac would be cooler.

[EvilRoeSlade]

To get this topic back on track, I'd like to talk about one of my pet peeves, which is documentation that is changed unnecessarily.

Stuff about seniority.

Okay, you're right, I'm sorry.  Let me rephrase that.  That documentation has been around since I first started playing Armageddon, which means it has been around for at least four years, and I suspect it has been around for far longer.

That means for four years the players of muls have been reading that documentation and basing their role-play on it.  It is in many ways the collective playing experience for people who have had mulish characters of four years.

It also seems to make a lot of sense to me.  Due to their volatile emotional nature, muls are impossible to condition properly.  Furthermore, slavers do not make good psychiatrists.  It's easy to understand why they still don't truly understand muls even after centuries of breeding them.

Making additions to the documentation is great, I'm in total support of it.  But changing the documentation so that it suddenly contradicts what it has said previously ruins continuity.  Continuity is crucial for role-play.

Most slave roles are nearly unplayable.  A slave that is only good for killing things and shouldn't reasonable be expected to interact with another human being is completely unplayable as far as I'm concerned.  Even the staff policy of the immortals of House Borsail indicate that they understand that slave roles are generally unplayable.

Lastly, it seems as though there are entire villages of escaped muls in the game.  I doubt that those muls populating the villages were released for good behavior.

I don't want to react too strongly, because I haven't seen the new documentation yet.  But I don't think it should be change so much as simply added to, perhaps expanding on areas that aren't clear as of yet.

[Ktavialt]

Making additions to the documentation is great, I'm in total support of it.  But changing the documentation so that it suddenly contradicts what it has said previously ruins continuity.  Continuity is crucial for role-play.

The only difference that I saw between the text you quoted from the documentation and what Naiona had already said which you disagreed with was the mul's want for freedom. Naiona says that they are frightened of being free. You seem worried that 90% of mul PC's are going to have to be slaves, but likely the staff is probably willing to make most PC muls the exception mul that has the reason to escape which outweighed its inherent fear of escaping, causing it to escape, but leaving with the mul some very strange personality defects. The only real change that's going on here is that the staff is throwing out what it says would be the likely effects on the mentality of a born-slave being thrust out into the open plus additional stuff that may show up in the documentation. Here's what I think the mul's personality would be shaped from/be:
- A mul can't hide what it is. A mul has lived an incredibly sheltered life, and does not know what's out there. A mul knows that society expects them to be slaves, and has no clue what's beyond the black walls of Allanak (or wherever its from). How does it know where to go once it escapes through the gate, and that if it doesn't die in the wastes, that it won't just be enslaved in another (possibly worse) place? Muls should be incredibly inept at the practices/customs of places other than where it was from originally.
- An escaped mul may or may not have talked about this to other slaves, gotten inspiration from other slaves that were either not born slaves or not muls. It may have a series of stories about whats truly out there, and may know a thing or two that's real from them, and a few that are false.
- A mul never had to make its own decision for itself, other than those based on its chores (labor, gladiatorial stuff, etc.) Its understanding of social custom is whacked out to say the least. A mul is likely completely inept in many things, but incredibly brilliant at whatever it did as a chore (which is undoubtedly something strenuous and physical - that's why they were bred that way), since what else did it have to think about/be good at?
- The circumstances of it escaping should have a huge impact on a mul's personality. While it would be most comfortable being a slave in a slave master relationship, there was a reason it left in the first place (such as abuse, maybe). If Joebob mul befriends Billy human ranger and they go on a ride, and Billy says "Hmm... wonder what's down there, go check for me, please?" Joebob mul probably has a 50/50 chance of either (a) being an obedient slave, going there without question, coming back and reporting like a good boy; or (b) being incredibly angered at Billy and accusing him of trying to enslave him, treating him how everybody else used to and being part of the conspiracy to control his kind.

Lastly, it seems as though there are entire villages of escaped muls in the game.  I doubt that those muls populating the villages were released for good behavior.

The free mul NPC population might be a little overstated using the proposed changes, but I don't think by too much, and as was said before, muls -can- escape.

Anyways, just thought I'd splurge and try to say what I think.

- Ktavialt

[RunningMountain]

I am vexxed to see Helper underneath EvilRoeSlades name.

[Maybe42or54]

Some more pet peeves.
People that get vexxed by things like why someone is something.
Joking aside.
I seriously don't know what that was supposed to accomplish, Runningmountain.

A pet peeve of mine, after a pc dies and I get a Pm from someone I don't know telling me:
"How could you have played that PC soo poorly? There are soo many people that hate you now because you don't know how to play a simple PC."

How do I respond to that, besides simply not responding?

Nobles that only go around to terrorize commoners with their bunch of groupies from the same clan that picks random people out and makes up a damn excuse. Sure it may be IC, but it is annoying.

[RunningMountain]

It's a pet peeve. The best helpers are the one that don't have Helper below their name.

[Elgiva]

Nobles that only go around to terrorize commoners with their bunch of groupies from the same clan that picks random people out and makes up a damn excuse. Sure it may be IC, but it is annoying.

Hmm... templars too?

[Hexxaex]

Might have been mentioned, but I hate people who are too lazy (and seem to have been playing long enough to know) to use the !man ^man #man emote tags.

Code Select Expand

The PC that is you taps the buff indie PC on the shoulder with a rough finger.

The buff indie whirls around to look at him as he taps him on the shoulder with his finger.

SoI has no tags like that anyway.  Drives me nuts in both games.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Ask yourself why would someone -want- to make an escaped mul?  To play out the mental anguish of leaving a pampered life of free food, water, shelter and instructed purpose for a desert environment for which they've not been prepared that holds promises of death, pain and worse around every corner?  Or for the kickass stats?  You can play the first role by selecting a human.  Why does it need to be a mul?  What about the mul will make that experience even more rewarding for both you and the people interacting with you?

Ask yourself why would someone want to make an enslaved mul?  To play out the monotony of following orders and never having to make a decision, secure in the knowledge that food, water, and shelter will always be available no matter what?  Or for the kickass stats?  You can play the first role by selecting a human.  Why does it need to be a mul?  What about the mul will make that experience even more rewarding for both you and the person interacting with you?

You can play an escaped human slave.  You can play an escaped mul slave.  You can play a human slave.  You can play a mul slave.  If someone created a mul slave owned by the T'zai Byn would you accuse them of just wanting kick-ass stats, because they clearly could have played a human slave or dwarf slave bred for combat?  It's not as if their kickass mul stats aren't going to help them in the T'zai Byn.

If you're concerned about balance, then escaped slaves have their own set of drawbacks.  Not being able to enter either city state is always a big one.  People hunting you in groups is another.  If you would judge balance by survivability, then you can't get more unbalanced (unbalanced against the player of the character, that is) than escaped mul.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

Might have been mentioned, but I hate people who are too lazy (and seem to have been playing long enough to know) to use the !man ^man #man emote tags.

Code Select Expand

The PC that is you taps the buff indie PC on the shoulder with a rough finger.

The buff indie whirls around to look at him as he taps him on the shoulder with his finger.

SoI has no tags like that anyway.  Drives me nuts in both games.

I understand that. When I tried SoI after a couple of months here, it  makes me queasy when I had to do without all the ! ^ #. Makes me realise that the emote system here is a big bonus, but I got used to without as well.

[Halaster]

mansa

[LoD]

Ask yourself why would someone want to make an enslaved mul?  To play out the monotony of following orders and never having to make a decision, secure in the knowledge that food, water, and shelter will always be available no matter what?  Or for the kickass stats?  You can play the first role by selecting a human.  Why does it need to be a mul?  What about the mul will make that experience even more rewarding for both you and the person interacting with you?

A mul slave is going to be serving in a limited capacity compared to that of a human.  A human slave could simply be a messenger, crafter, tailor, servant or any other regular task while the mul's role will likely be limited to being a gladiator, prize beast or object of beauty/status/wealth.  The role is inherently different because of what a mul is - that's why someone would want to make a mul.  Because of the role.  And that role always starts as a slave.

My pet peeve with escaped muls is that the high percentage of muls are slaves, and not escaped slaves.  Not 50-50, not 70-30, but probably something more like 95-5.  The Imm Staff could possibly comment on what number of escaped muls they consider to comprise the total mul population, but the reason I ask the above question is because the mul is almost inherently NOT free and so to make this choice means you're going toward the exception rather than the norm.

There are plenty of free and enslaved humans.  When you decide you're going to play a human, to make them free or a slave would perhaps be just as common.  To select a mul as a non-slave would be a much different choice.  If I were king, muls whould only have the option of playing a slave without a special app with a good reason, and then later escape if the role took them that direction.

Another pet peeve within the "escaped mul" scenario is that many muls don't actually RP out their escape.  They don't begin as a slave, which the documentation claims all of them do as a requirement of your background.  They don't have to worry about a PC or NPC owner looking for them specifically or the House hiring men to go out looking for it.  They don't have their immense strength and fighting prowess put in check by being birthed into a world of slavery.

In fact, any escaped mul that begins escaped shouldn't play that role anyways because they probably never wanted to deal with bother of RPing a slave in the first place.  And having that experience of being enslaved, being someone's property, being treated well, will have a greatly diminished bearing on your RP if the only place you see any of that interaction is in the text of your background.

If you wanted to play an escaped mul, then I'd have a lot less trouble with it if you began as a slave and then RP'd your escape after a good few months serving as the slave.  That way, you've entered the world in the vehicle through which all muls begin, you've introduced yourself to the game dynamic - meaning the other PC players that should/would know you exist and you would've developed a -reason- to actually leave your bonds and seek the unknowns of a world you've never faced armed with the character development that is really required to create a complete mul persona.

To begin escaped really cheapens the experience and robs yourself and many PC's of a rewarding and interesting RP experience.

As a side note, mul karma used to be quite low (perhaps around a 3) and there was a change to make it much higher.  Now, my question to you is what do you think warranted that change?  Was it because there were too many mul slaves being played poorly?  Or too many escaped muls being played poorly?

-LoD

[EvilRoeSlade]

A mul slave is going to be serving in a limited capacity compared to that of a human.  A human slave could simply be a messenger, crafter, tailor, servant or any other regular task while the mul's role will likely be limited to being a gladiator, prize beast or object of beauty/status/wealth.  The role is inherently different because of what a mul is - that's why someone would want to make a mul.  Because of the role.  And that role always starts as a slave.

This limited capacity you speak of is precisely why playing a mul slave is so unplayable, even when compared to other slave roles.

Furthermore, a mul is what a mul is whether its a slave or not.  If your mul has escaped it doesn't alleviate the players need to roleplay a mul.  That experience will always be different than that of a human.  It will always be more restrictive than that of a human.  Even if a human slave escapes from slavery, he can still reassimilate himself into society without any trouble at all, once he takes off his slave collar he's no longer distinguishable from anyone else.  For a mul this is not an option.  So the fact that a mul was a slave can never truly be forgotten.

My pet peeve with escaped muls is that the high percentage of muls are slaves, and not escaped slaves.  Not 50-50, not 70-30, but probably something more like 95-5.  The Imm Staff could possibly comment on what number of escaped muls they consider to comprise the total mul population, but the reason I ask the above question is because the mul is almost inherently NOT free and so to make this choice means you're going toward the exception rather than the norm.

I'm sometimes frusturated too by the unrealistic proportions of PCs to NPCs as well.  I think that according to the virtual population, there should be zero templars, zero nobles, zero employees of a noble house, and zero militia in the Bard's Barrel at any given time.  Quite often, that isn't the case.  Players seem to like playing nobles, templars, employees of a noble house, and militia far more than they do elves, people that claim to have no occupation, and the other degenerates that I assume make up the virtual population of the Bard's Barrel.  It's especially frustrating when I'm the only one playing such a degenerate.

Unfortunately, it can't be helped.  People will play what they want to play, and they will play where they want to play, no matter how much it damages the integrity of the game world.  There isn't any real way to change this.  Yes there are too many escaped muls compared to slave muls.  Even if the desire for freedom is common amongst muls, and I maintain that it's perfectly reasonable that it would be, very few muls will successfully escape.

There are plenty of free and enslaved humans.  When you decide you're going to play a human, to make them free or a slave would perhaps be just as common.  To select a mul as a non-slave would be a much different choice.  If I were king, muls whould only have the option of playing a slave without a special app with a good reason, and then later escape if the role took them that direction.

Another pet peeve within the "escaped mul" scenario is that many muls don't actually RP out their escape.  They don't begin as a slave, which the documentation claims all of them do as a requirement of your background.  They don't have to worry about a PC or NPC owner looking for them specifically or the House hiring men to go out looking for it.  They don't have their immense strength and fighting prowess put in check by being birthed into a world of slavery.

I've seen muls that began their careers free later become captured.  I myself have captured free muls whom I doubt began their careers as a slave.  While playing an escaped mul, I've had various people try to capture or kill me repeatedly.

Saying that a mul that begins as an escaped slave somehow gets a free lunch is incorrect.

you[/b] is what do you think warranted that change?  Was it because there were too many mul slaves being played poorly?  Or too many escaped muls being played poorly?

-LoD

I would say there were many reasons, and neither are the ones you suggest.

First, karma 2 isn't a good measure of how powerful a mul is.  Karma 7 seems high, but is definitely closer to the mark.

Second, back then there were too many muls period.  Stepping out of the gates and recieving a full frontal from a 2 hour mul warrior shouldn't be the top concern of a newbie ranger.

I would say that anyone in a role requiring three or less karma is roughly as trustworthy as someone with zero, due to the atrocities I've seen commited by desert elves, 2-karma magickers (who were mostly desert elves), and half-giants.  So if you want me to say that there were more mul twinks back then as opposed to now, I will.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I once had the pleasure of playing in the same clan as an extremely well-played (in my opinion) slave mul. My thoughts of him as a player were split pretty evenly between "this guy is awesome!" and "how the hell can he stand such a limited role?"

Borsail, right?  If I understand the situation, he didn't, since eventually he either suicided or retired.

[buzz]

I've got a fecking pet peeve, right fecking here:

"Feck"

Just fecking say "fuck", for feck's sake.  I dunno what the feck changing one fecking letter does.  Who the feck started that fecking cock shite anyway?  Oh, and while we're fecking at it:

"Shite"

I dunno what the feck you sons of shite-gobblers are fecking thinking.  It's "shit."  Feck you!

Disclaimer: This post may cause irrational thinking, a rush of blood to the head, sudden urges to reply in the negative, rectal bleeding, asthma, aneurysm, apathy, acne, apoplexy, insomnia, narcolepsy, and/or small puppies to explode.  Please regard this entire post as a facetious display of psuedo-intellectual irony.  As an exercise to the reader, please recall the difference between sarcastic, sardonic, and facetious.  A moose once bit my sister.

[Space Ace]

I once had the pleasure of playing in the same clan as an extremely well-played (in my opinion) slave mul. My thoughts of him as a player were split pretty evenly between "this guy is awesome!" and "how the hell can he stand such a limited role?"

Borsail, right?  If I understand the situation, he didn't, since eventually he either suicided or retired.

I think CK's referring to the mul I played a while ago, but the details of that PC I'll keep out of this thread for IC-sensitivity reasons.  I will say that a role is what you make of it, nothing more, nothing less.  Sometimes what'll seem like the most mundane of roles can be very rewarding.  I absolutely enjoyed the role, despite all the "limitations" you'd think would come along with it.  My mul had goals, aspirations, opinions, a group of people to interact with, everything he needed and his lifestyle suited him fine.  Limitations, in some ways, are just challenges and if you enjoy being challenged, then this type of role is fine.

I do take some offense at the statement that I must've suicided or retired the PC simply because he isn't alive any more.  I was very disappointed with the circumstances of his death because I believed there was a lot more I could've done with the PC.  Making assumptions about another player's motives in an effort to support your own opinion isn't all that cool, if you ask me.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Everyone has their own perceptions regarding a situation.  Holding me accountable as if I know everything regarding a particular situation when in fact I don't, isn't fair either.

Anyway, you don't really know whether or not myself, CK, or you are talking about the same PC anyway.  So there isn't any need to get upset.

On that note, I am finished with this Pet Peeves topic.  Maybe I ought to understand why everyone is launching personal attacks on me for my opinions, but I don't, and it isn't cool either.